andyg@crash.cts.com (Andy Guevara) (04/27/91)
Please excuse my dumb question...
We are looking at possibly using the Amiga chassis as a controller
to house AT bus cards and still run 68000 programs to control the
cards. My question: Is the AT side EISA?
The reason is that we might try to use alternate processors on the
AT side.
Also, do I understand correctly that the 3000 only has 2 AT slots?
Any answers are greatly appreciated.
Andy
"If you are pregnant or nursing, | -= Andy Guevara =-
please seek the advice of a doctor | {anywhere}!crash!andyg
before using this information." |daveh@cbmvax.commodore.com (Dave Haynie) (05/01/91)
In article <8848@crash.cts.com> andyg@crash.cts.com (Andy Guevara) writes: >Please excuse my dumb question... >We are looking at possibly using the Amiga chassis as a controller >to house AT bus cards and still run 68000 programs to control the >cards. My question: Is the AT side EISA? No. "AT Slot" == "ISA Slot", at least in 90's-speak. "ISA" means "Industry Standard Architecture", since apparently "the industry" has taken over this bus since abandoned by IBM (can't say as I blame them, even if they did invent it). Enhanced ISA, EISA, is an attempt to build a bus that's upward compatible with ISA and somewhat modern (multi-mastered, shared-interrupts, intelligent configuration, the normal Amiga-bus stuff). >The reason is that we might try to use alternate processors on the >AT side. I guess that would be a job for EISA, if your only other choice is ISA. >Also, do I understand correctly that the 3000 only has 2 AT slots? The A3000 has two ISA slots that only have power attached to them. You plug in a "Bridge Card", which is either a PC-XT or AT on an Amiga bus card, and the ISA bus gets driven. That leaves one free slot on the A3000. With an A3000T, you can have three free ISA slots. -- Dave Haynie Commodore-Amiga (Amiga 3000) "The Crew That Never Rests" {uunet|pyramid|rutgers}!cbmvax!daveh PLINK: hazy BIX: hazy "That's me in the corner, that's me in the spotlight" -R.E.M.
jtravis@dworkin.Amber.COM (Jim, Sysop) (05/05/91)
daveh@cbmvax.commodore.com (Dave Haynie) writes: > No. "AT Slot" == "ISA Slot", at least in 90's-speak. "ISA" means "Industry > Standard Architecture", since apparently "the industry" has taken over this > bus since abandoned by IBM (can't say as I blame them, even if they did > invent it). Enhanced ISA, EISA, is an attempt to build a bus that's upward > compatible with ISA and somewhat modern (multi-mastered, shared-interrupts, > intelligent configuration, the normal Amiga-bus stuff). > Hey Dave - why can't CBM sue other people for stealing the look and feel of the Amiga software and hardware? Seems a little crummy that we can be preyed upon, you know? Who knows...properly followed up on, CBM could be on to some big $$$ if they could ever prove technical/intellectual theft was at work here. I guess after having gone from an A1000 to a 2000, then a 2500/30 and now a 3000, I wish CBM could keep a bit more of the edge it has seemingly pioneered. And howzabout that 24-bit graphics driver for Workbench. Got one yet? I'd like to decide on a Hi-res card, but don't know what direction to go! > > -- > Dave Haynie Commodore-Amiga (Amiga 3000) "The Crew That Never Rests" > {uunet|pyramid|rutgers}!cbmvax!daveh PLINK: hazy BIX: hazy > "That's me in the corner, that's me in the spotlight" -R.E.M. --------///----------------------------------------------------------- /// Jim Trascapoulos * CSAccess BBS * 609-584-8774 /// * USENET: UNDER CONSTRUCTION * \\\ /// "I was told once that people don't like to think. So I \\\/// tried to sell one a Mac. It worked." --\XX/---------------------------------------------------------------
cpmwc@marlin.jcu.edu.au (Matthew W Crowd) (05/06/91)
In article <0kqF24w163w@dworkin.Amber.COM> jtravis@dworkin.Amber.COM (Jim, Sysop) writes: >daveh@cbmvax.commodore.com (Dave Haynie) writes: > >> No. "AT Slot" == "ISA Slot", at least in 90's-speak. "ISA" means "Industry >> Standard Architecture", since apparently "the industry" has taken over this >> bus since abandoned by IBM (can't say as I blame them, even if they did >> invent it). Enhanced ISA, EISA, is an attempt to build a bus that's upward >> compatible with ISA and somewhat modern (multi-mastered, shared-interrupts, >> intelligent configuration, the normal Amiga-bus stuff). >> > Hey Dave - why can't CBM sue other people for stealing the look and >feel of the Amiga software and hardware? Seems a little crummy that we can >be preyed upon, you know? Who knows...properly followed up on, CBM could be > All EISA cards have dedicated cpu's on them, like the ULowell(?) Board for amiga. There aren't too many others for the amiga. The range for the PS/2 is rapidly growing with dedicated processores on almost every card in the computer from Joystick Cards( :-) ) to Ethernet Cards. IBM didn't steal this, they invented it. >> >> -- >> Dave Haynie Commodore-Amiga (Amiga 3000) "The Crew That Never Rests" >> {uunet|pyramid|rutgers}!cbmvax!daveh PLINK: hazy BIX: hazy >> "That's me in the corner, that's me in the spotlight" -R.E.M. > > >--------///----------------------------------------------------------- > /// Jim Trascapoulos * CSAccess BBS * 609-584-8774 > /// * USENET: UNDER CONSTRUCTION * >\\\ /// "I was told once that people don't like to think. So I > \\\/// tried to sell one a Mac. It worked." >--\XX/--------------------------------------------------------------- matt.
daveh@cbmvax.commodore.com (Dave Haynie) (05/07/91)
In article <0kqF24w163w@dworkin.Amber.COM> jtravis@dworkin.Amber.COM (Jim, Sysop) writes: >daveh@cbmvax.commodore.com (Dave Haynie) writes: >> [..] Enhanced ISA, EISA, is an attempt to build a bus that's upward >> compatible with ISA and somewhat modern (multi-mastered, shared-interrupts, >> intelligent configuration, the normal Amiga-bus stuff). > Hey Dave - why can't CBM sue other people for stealing the look and >feel of the Amiga software and hardware? Well, personally, I think it's absurd that anyone can get away with successfully suing over the look and feel of anything. I think the forces of darkness in this industry may need to resort to legal mumbo-jumbo to make up for lack of real innovation, but I hope we never have to sink that low. As for actual hardware, the various Amiga bus concepts were hardly an Amiga first, they just look good when compared to what else was popular in the personal computer business during the 80's. A number of these things were done in industrial buses and 70's things like S-100 bus. I'm just amazed that ISA bus came out as it did, it's almost as if the designers built the thing in a vacuum. >Who knows...properly followed up on, CBM could be on to some big $$$ if they >could ever prove technical/intellectual theft was at work here. The only real protection for intellectual property is the patent system. And if you take a look at how messed up that system is today, you don't get a good feeling about it. Being granted a patent is supposed to mean that you have an actual invention, and that you are the first to actually implement this invention. An invention is NOT just an idea, but a complete implementation of a concept that make take into account a number of discrete ideas, none of which can morally be patented. In reality, the patent office knows very little about what it is granting patents on these days, and basically only looks to previous patents as its measure for what has been done previously. >I guess after having gone from an A1000 to a 2000, then a 2500/30 and now a >3000, I wish CBM could keep a bit more of the edge it has seemingly pioneered. Again, I personally don't think it's proper to keep your edge by holding others back. I think you can best keep ahead by moving ahead while the others are trying to catch up to where you were. That's not always easy, but it's infinitely more satisfying, unless perhaps you're a lawyer. Unfortunately, lots of people see holding back the competition via law suits as a better way to hold their position. > /// Jim Trascapoulos * CSAccess BBS * 609-584-8774 -- Dave Haynie Commodore-Amiga (Amiga 3000) "The Crew That Never Rests" {uunet|pyramid|rutgers}!cbmvax!daveh PLINK: hazy BIX: hazy "That's me in the corner, that's me in the spotlight" -R.E.M.
johnhlee@CS.Cornell.EDU (John H. Lee) (05/08/91)
In article <1991May6.114751.5024@marlin.jcu.edu.au> cpmwc@marlin.jcu.edu.au (Matthew W Crowd) writes: [...] >All EISA cards have dedicated cpu's on them, like the ULowell(?) Board >for amiga. There aren't too many others for the amiga. The range for the >PS/2 is rapidly growing with dedicated processores on almost every card >in the computer from Joystick Cards( :-) ) to Ethernet Cards. > >IBM didn't steal this, they invented it. Eh? EISA is the industry standard invented by a collaboration of equipment manufacturers, which includes practically everyone *but* IBM. PS/2's use the competing standard developed by IBM, Microchannel. Expansion bus cards with dedicated CPU's aren't new, either. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- The DiskDoctor threatens the crew! Next time on AmigaDos: The Next Generation. John Lee Internet: johnhlee@cs.cornell.edu The above opinions of those of the user, and not of this machine.
daveh@cbmvax.commodore.com (Dave Haynie) (05/08/91)
In article <1991May8.032757.12335@cs.cornell.edu> johnhlee@cs.cornell.edu (John H. Lee) writes: >In article <1991May6.114751.5024@marlin.jcu.edu.au> cpmwc@marlin.jcu.edu.au (Matthew W Crowd) writes: >>All EISA cards have dedicated cpu's on them, Hardly. Some do. >>like the ULowell(?) Board for amiga. The A2090a and A2232, also from Commodore, have dedicated CPUs on them. >>There aren't too many others for the amiga. The range for the PS/2 is rapidly >>growing ... PS/2s use the MCA bus, not the EISA bus. >>IBM didn't steal this, they invented it. >Eh? EISA is the industry standard invented by a collaboration of equipment >manufacturers, which includes practically everyone *but* IBM. Indeed. And, interestingly enough, the Amiga's Zorro II bus predates both EISA and MCA by many years. But dedicated processors are even older than that. You find them occasionally on ISA (PC-AT/XT) cards. Setting the Wayback Machine back a notch or two, you find dedicated processors here and there on VME, Multibus, STD bus, and even S-100 bus. None of which have anything much to do with IBM. -- Dave Haynie Commodore-Amiga (Amiga 3000) "The Crew That Never Rests" {uunet|pyramid|rutgers}!cbmvax!daveh PLINK: hazy BIX: hazy "That's me in the corner, that's me in the spotlight" -R.E.M.
allbery@NCoast.ORG (Brandon S. Allbery KB8JRR/AA) (05/09/91)
As quoted from <1991May8.032757.12335@cs.cornell.edu> by johnhlee@CS.Cornell.EDU (John H. Lee): +--------------- | >PS/2 is rapidly growing with dedicated processores on almost every card | >in the computer from Joystick Cards( :-) ) to Ethernet Cards. | > | >IBM didn't steal this, they invented it. | | Eh? EISA is the industry standard invented by a collaboration of equipment | manufacturers, which includes practically everyone *but* IBM. PS/2's use the | competing standard developed by IBM, Microchannel. Expansion bus cards with | dedicated CPU's aren't new, either. +--------------- Hint: Why did IBM call it *Micro*channel? Dedicated CPUs for I/O devices are NOT AT ALL new... and were invented by guess who, who's been calling them "channels" since at least the sixties.... ++Brandon -- Me: Brandon S. Allbery Ham: KB8JRR/AA 10m,6m,2m,220,440,1.2 Internet: allbery@NCoast.ORG (restricted HF at present) Delphi: ALLBERY AMPR: kb8jrr.AmPR.ORG [44.70.4.88] uunet!usenet.ins.cwru.edu!ncoast!allbery KB8JRR @ WA8BXN.OH
FelineGrace@cup.portal.com (Dana B Bourgeois) (05/10/91)
You know you're getting older when you remember stuff that many others never heard of.....::sigh:: One of the CBM Pet machines had more than one CPU in it. I think it was the 2000 model but that one had a 6502 and a Z80 like the C128 so it may not qualify. Is it the earliest CBM machine to have multi-processors in it? Dana Bourgeois @ cup.portal.com Those in their teens and early twenties aren't required to know what a PET computer is. :-)
brindley@ECE.ORST.EDU (Mike Brindley) (05/11/91)
In article <42181@cup.portal.com> FelineGrace@cup.portal.com (Dana B Bourgeois) writes: >You know you're getting older when you remember stuff that many others >never heard of.....::sigh:: > >One of the CBM Pet machines had more than one CPU in it. I think it was >the 2000 model but that one had a 6502 and a Z80 like the C128 so it may >not qualify. Is it the earliest CBM machine to have multi-processors in >it? > >Dana Bourgeois @ cup.portal.com > >Those in their teens and early twenties aren't required to know what a >PET computer is. :-) In a summer job a couple of years ago, I had to modify some programs on a machine labelled "SuperPET". It had a switch on the side which allowed you to switch between a 6502 running BASIC and a 6809 running a varity of things which had to be loaded off of disk. The floppy disk stored 512K on a 5.25 inch floppy drive using double density disks! --> Mike Brindley "If your looking for adventure, Philomath is were to go." - REM
johnhlee@CS.Cornell.EDU (John H. Lee) (05/11/91)
In article <1991May8.224541.17086@NCoast.ORG> allbery@ncoast.ORG (Brandon S. Allbery KB8JRR/AA) writes: >As quoted from <1991May8.032757.12335@cs.cornell.edu> by johnhlee@CS.Cornell.EDU (John H. Lee): >+--------------- >| >PS/2 is rapidly growing with dedicated processores on almost every card >| >in the computer from Joystick Cards( :-) ) to Ethernet Cards. >| > >| >IBM didn't steal this, they invented it. >| >| Eh? EISA is the industry standard invented by a collaboration of equipment >| manufacturers, which includes practically everyone *but* IBM. PS/2's use the >| competing standard developed by IBM, Microchannel. Expansion bus cards with >| dedicated CPU's aren't new, either. >+--------------- > >Hint: Why did IBM call it *Micro*channel? Dedicated CPUs for I/O devices are >NOT AT ALL new... and were invented by guess who, who's been calling them >"channels" since at least the sixties.... You probably weren't directing that hint at me, since I didn't imply that Microchannel was the first with dedicated expansion bus CPU's, (I was thinking of Q-Bus, VME bus, etc.) but... I didn't realize why IBM name the bus as it did until you mentioned it. Makes perfect sense now, but now it also sounds a bit pretentions. But then it came from IBM. I would really like to see a PS/2 running CMS (or would that be MicroCMS?) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- The DiskDoctor threatens the crew! Next time on AmigaDos: The Next Generation. John Lee Internet: johnhlee@cs.cornell.edu The above opinions are those of the user, and not of this machine.
kent@swrinde.nde.swri.edu (Kent D. Polk) (05/12/91)
In article <1991May10.213512.16629@lynx.CS.ORST.EDU> brindley@ECE.ORST.EDU (Mike Brindley) writes: >In article <42181@cup.portal.com> FelineGrace@cup.portal.com (Dana B Bourgeois) writes: >> >>One of the CBM Pet machines had more than one CPU in it. I think it was >>the 2000 model but that one had a 6502 and a Z80 like the C128 so it may >>not qualify. Is it the earliest CBM machine to have multi-processors in >>it? Actually, I think the 4040 disk drive was the earliest CBM machine to have multi-processors in it. Two 6502's - one for each drive. > In a summer job a couple of years ago, I had to modify some >programs on a machine labelled "SuperPET". It had a switch on >the side which allowed you to switch between a 6502 running >BASIC and a 6809 running a varity of things which had to be The 6809 mode stuff was from Waterloo if I remember correctly. The SuperPET was the hottest micro of it's day. I wrote lots of software for the 8032's & SuperPETs, but didn't get a chance to work much with the 6809 mode and don't really remember anything about it. >loaded off of disk. The floppy disk stored 512K on a 5.25 >inch floppy drive using double density disks! Also, the 8052 (8250? whatever) was a dual drive which stored 1Meg on a single double-sided, double-density floppy. 2 Meg. total. Unfortunately, it was a flat file system, so this cut down a bit on it's usability. Kent Polk: Southwest Research Institute Internet : kent@swrinde.nde.swri.edu UUCP : $ {cs.utexas.edu, gatech!petro, sun!texsun}!swrinde!kent
jh203s806@sycom.UUCP (Jim Harvey) (05/12/91)
I think the dual processor PET was the SuperPET. It had a 6502 and I believe a 6809, not a Z80. It was a hack on an 8032 machine that was done at a canadian university (McGill?) and was adopted by Commodore. There were a few 8032's and SuperPETs that had a 64K memory expansion card making an 8096. As far as I know there was never any (official) software written for the expanded RAM. -- Jim Harvey - 18538 Inkster - Redford, Mich. 48240 jh203s806@sycom.UUCP or try uunet!umich!vela!sycom!jh203s806 Ask not for whom the bell tolls and you will only pay station to station rates
peterk@cbmger.UUCP (Peter Kittel GERMANY) (05/13/91)
In article <42181@cup.portal.com> FelineGrace@cup.portal.com (Dana B Bourgeois) writes: >You know you're getting older when you remember stuff that many others >never heard of.....::sigh:: > >One of the CBM Pet machines had more than one CPU in it. I think it was >the 2000 model but that one had a 6502 and a Z80 like the C128 so it may >not qualify. Is it the earliest CBM machine to have multi-processors in >it? Huh? A Z80? I only know of the MMF 9000 (MicroMainFrame, perhaps identical with that "SuperPET"), which had a 6502 plus a 6809. If you only want multi-processing, why not consider the old PET plus its floppy stations which had *two* 6502's (ok, one was 6504 really) built in? Today a floppy counts as integral part of the computer, so in total we had three CPUs there. Oh sorry, now I remember more (seems like really getting old): There was also the CBM 600/700 which had indeed a coprocessor slot. It was intended for a Z80 (CP/M) *OR* an 8088 (MS-DOS). There existed prototypes of both, and a small series of the 8088 version was even sold in Austria to authorities, but it never made it to the normal public. It was really a rather wierd concept to run MS-DOS from an 8050 floppy. Those who know this disk format know that there was *NO* easy way to get an MS-DOS application onto this. -- Best regards, Dr. Peter Kittel // E-Mail to \\ Only my personal opinions... Commodore Frankfurt, Germany \X/ {uunet|pyramid|rutgers}!cbmvax!cbmger!peterk
peterk@cbmger.UUCP (Peter Kittel GERMANY) (05/13/91)
In article <2834@swrinde.nde.swri.edu> kent@swrinde.nde.swri.edu (Kent D. Polk) writes: > >Actually, I think the 4040 disk drive was the earliest CBM machine to >have multi-processors in it. Two 6502's - one for each drive. No, not for each drive. One was the bus controller to connect the floppy via IEC bus to the computer and interpret the commands. The other was the real floppy controller doing the hard stuff on the drive hardware. And even older than the 4040 was the 3040 and the 2040 with the same setup. (Though I fear the 2040 was never released to public. This was before I joined Commodore, but a floppy I bought used had the 2040 label on it.) >The 6809 mode stuff was from Waterloo if I remember correctly. The >SuperPET was the hottest micro of it's day. I wrote lots of software >for the 8032's & SuperPETs, but didn't get a chance to work much with >the 6809 mode and don't really remember anything about it. Hmm, perhaps you were lucky. The Waterloo software was ssslllloooowww. All the languages compiled into P code and were beaten by the normal Basic interpreter in speed... I heard enough nice things about the 6809 to decide that this speed lack was not the processor's fault. >>loaded off of disk. The floppy disk stored 512K on a 5.25 >>inch floppy drive using double density disks! (was obviously an 8050) >Also, the 8052 (8250? whatever) was a dual drive which stored 1Meg on a >single double-sided, double-density floppy. 2 Meg. total. >Unfortunately, it was a flat file system, so this cut down a bit on >it's usability. Yes, I still love that 8250. It appeared also more reliable than today's HD drives. My 8250 here still is going strong. It sits within a CBM 8296-D directly besides my A3000. I find this sort of adequate :-). -- Best regards, Dr. Peter Kittel // E-Mail to \\ Only my personal opinions... Commodore Frankfurt, Germany \X/ {uunet|pyramid|rutgers}!cbmvax!cbmger!peterk
peterk@cbmger.UUCP (Peter Kittel GERMANY) (05/13/91)
In article <jh203s806.1901@sycom.UUCP> jh203s806@sycom.UUCP (Jim Harvey) writes: >I think the dual processor PET was the SuperPET. It had a 6502 and I believe >a 6809, not a Z80. It was a hack on an 8032 machine that was done at a >canadian university (McGill?) and was adopted by Commodore. There were a few >8032's and SuperPETs that had a 64K memory expansion card making an 8096. As >far as I know there was never any (official) software written for the expanded >RAM. Oh boy, is this really so long ago that people tend to mix up everything? (Sorry, no flame intended.) These were two different things: A) The SuperPET, or MMF 9000, had a 6809 coprocessor board, where this board carried its own 64 KB RAM. (See other postings about the Waterloo software.) B) The 8096 had only the 6502, and the new 64 KB were accessed via bankswitching. And there was software: It came shipped with a BASIC interpreter from Germany named LOS-96. And, not to forget: There was a wonderfull version of SuperOffice (Superbase + Supertext) by Precision Software, yes, the direct predecessor of Superbase for Amiga and now PCs. The last model of this computer series was the CBM 8296 with 128 KB RAM, where you could copy the ROMs into one of 32 KB banks and modify them just like in the C64. And then there was the same machine with a 8250 floppy built-in, called CBM 8296-D. Ah, and not to forget: The 8296 was developed here in Germany, in our Braunschweig engineering department. -- Best regards, Dr. Peter Kittel // E-Mail to \\ Only my personal opinions... Commodore Frankfurt, Germany \X/ {uunet|pyramid|rutgers}!cbmvax!cbmger!peterk
andyg@crash.cts.com (Andy Guevara) (05/14/91)
This is really embarrasing. I asked the original question about the AT bus,
wondering if it was EISA, over a week ago. And now I see that I missed the
answer :(.
Rather than take up any more bandwidth, could someone EMAIL me a short note
about EISA compatibility and the Amiga? I promise to be more attentive next
time.
Thanks in advance.
Andy
"If you are pregnant or nursing, | -= Andy Guevara =-
please seek the advice of a doctor | {anywhere}!crash!andyg
before using this information." |
--
"If you are pregnant or nursing, | -= Andy Guevara =-
please seek the advice of a doctor | {anywhere}!crash!andyg
before using this information." |