hgschmie@immd4.informatik.uni-erlangen.de (Henning Schmiedehausen) (05/18/91)
Hi! Could anyone please tell me, which RAMs are necessary to upgrade an A3000? Someone told me, that I need 1MB x 8 SIPPs and somebody else told me, that I need 1MBx1 ZIPs. Can anyone, who owns such a bugger look into the manual and send me a mail? Thank you and Ciao Henning --- ONLY /// Real: Henning Schmiedehausen | Logik? Logik und Berechen- __ /// INT: hgschmie@immd4.uni-erlangen.de | barkeit? Was ist das? \\\/// UUCP: henning@castle.erh.sub.org | Kann man das essen? \XX/ AMIGA 1510 -- UUCP 1.12D | Commissioner SubNet Electronic Football League
johns@dworkin.Amber.COM (John Silvia) (05/21/91)
> Could anyone please tell me, which RAMs are necessary to upgrade an > A3000? Someone told me, that I need 1MB x 8 SIPPs and somebody else > told me, that I need 1MBx1 ZIPs. Can anyone, who owns such a bugger > look into the manual and send me a mail? There are two types of expansion ram for an A3000. There is PAGE MODE and STATIC COLUMN mode. The Page Mode chips are 256X4, and the Static Column chips are1024X4. 8 of either types of these chips are required for the minimum memory expansion. Also, types of chips cannot be mixed in the same system. Either it's all PAGE MODE or all STATIC COLUMN. STATIC COLUMN chips offer more storage, and greater speed, and are more expensive than PAGE MODE chips. Average Static Column pricing is around $35-$42 per chip. It is highly suggested to buy only the STATIC COLUMN chips - SCRAMS allow the Amiga to use it's fastest operation modes with a minimum of wait states and such. The directions starting on page 4-13 of the "Introducing the Commodore Amiga 3000" manual explain this entire operation completly with all warnings that should be heeded. I have heard that there are troubles with using the Page Mode chips but I don't know what truth to trust them with. The Static Column chips are better, faster and store more per chip. For less than $300, you can get the 8 SCRAMS from a memory dealer, and they install in less than an hour. The most important thing is the location of the chips on the motherboard. Bank 0 must be filled first, and those sockets are in a spread out pattern hiding with the other banks. Fill the first sockets of each column, and then skip 3 sockets and put another chip in. Repeat another two times, and set the jumper (J852) so that it connects the rearmost pin and the one in front of it, and then you will have four megs of ram. Also, remember that the first meg of fast ram must be moved from it's sockets in front of the ZIP sockets, into the empty sockets on the opposite side of the motherboard. These chips retire from fast ram to become the new extra megabyte of CHIP ram. This MUST be done if updating the total memory in the machine. There are no jumpers to set. Mostly, in all of this, follow this one rule: RTFM - and things will be okay.
daveh@cbmvax.commodore.com (Dave Haynie) (05/23/91)
In article <RX5022w163w@dworkin.Amber.COM> johns@dworkin.Amber.COM (John Silvia) writes: >> Could anyone please tell me, which RAMs are necessary to upgrade an >> A3000? Someone told me, that I need 1MB x 8 SIPPs and somebody else >> told me, that I need 1MBx1 ZIPs. Can anyone, who owns such a bugger >> look into the manual and send me a mail? First of all, there's no such thing as a "SIPP". The name refers to the part's physical configuration. A3000s with 1MB of Fast RAM come with DIP (Dual In-line Pin) parts installed. The expansion RAM for these is called ZIP (Zig-zag In-line Pin). Most Macintoshes use one kind of SIMM (Single In-line Memory Module) memories, which are tiny circuit boards with a mess of memories attached. Another kind of SIMM is popular in the PClone market since IBM first used it on their PS/2 line. >There are two types of expansion ram for an A3000. There is PAGE MODE and >STATIC COLUMN mode. The Page Mode chips are 256X4, and the Static Column >chips are1024X4. 8 of either types of these chips are required for the >minimum memory expansion. Actually, Page Mode and Static Column memories are available in both densities. >STATIC COLUMN chips offer more storage, and greater speed, and are more >expensive than PAGE MODE chips. Average Static Column pricing is around >$35-$42 per chip. That's because you're being gouged for those parts. They cost the manufacturer the same to make, since, in most cases, the DRAM are from the same dice, and the choice of Page or Static Column is a bonding option. Some dealers will charge more, since they know that an A3000 goes about 20% faster with Static Column memories, and thus, SCRAMs are more valuable to the buyer. >I have heard that there are troubles with using the Page Mode chips but I >don't know what truth to trust them with. The Static Column chips are >better, faster and store more per chip. There aren't any troubles using Page Mode memories, assuming you don't turn on any of the mode in the RAMSEY chip that require Static Column memory. If you do, you'll crash instantly, it's an all-or-nothing thing. And, as I mentioned, the sizes are not a function of the DRAM's memory modes. -- Dave Haynie Commodore-Amiga (Amiga 3000) "The Crew That Never Rests" {uunet|pyramid|rutgers}!cbmvax!daveh PLINK: hazy BIX: hazy "That's me in the corner, that's me in the spotlight" -R.E.M.
jet@casc.math.uh.edu (J Eric Townsend) (05/23/91)
In article <RX5022w163w@dworkin.Amber.COM> johns@dworkin.Amber.COM (John Silvia) writes: >STATIC COLUMN chips offer more storage, and greater speed, and are more >expensive than PAGE MODE chips. Average Static Column pricing is around >$35-$42 per chip. Why are SC chips faster than PM? Non-hardware-inquiring minds want to know. Is it because they happen to be larger chips (1Kx4 instead of 256x4), or is it for some more nefarious reason? -- J. Eric Townsend - jet@uh.edu - bitnet: jet@UHOU - vox: (713) 749-2126 "The final twitch of "Political Correctness" grand peur has to do with the age-old fear of antinomian beastliness, lesbians holding black masses over copies of Derrida and so forth." -- Alexander Cockburn
aaron@stat.tamu.edu (Aaron Hightower) (05/23/91)
In article <RX5022w163w@dworkin.Amber.COM> johns@dworkin.Amber.COM (John Silvia) writes: >> Could anyone please tell me, which RAMs are necessary to upgrade an >> A3000? Someone told me, that I need 1MB x 8 SIPPs and somebody else >> told me, that I need 1MBx1 ZIPs. Can anyone, who owns such a bugger >> look into the manual and send me a mail? > >There are two types of expansion ram for an A3000. There is PAGE MODE and >STATIC COLUMN mode. The Page Mode chips are 256X4, and the Static Column >chips are1024X4. 8 of either types of these chips are required for the >minimum memory expansion. Checking page 4-11 of the 3000 into manual reveals *4* types of memory. Your forgot the 256X4 Static Column and the 1Mx4 Page. In no way does static column identify the density of the chip. >Also, types of chips cannot be mixed in the same system. Either it's all >PAGE MODE or all STATIC COLUMN. True - also you cannot mix 256x4's with 1Mx4's. Remember that static column has nothing to do with density! Also, as I just proved to myself, I decided to leave my static column DIPS in their sockets and put two megs of FAST mem into ZIP banks 1 and 2 (leaving banks 0 and 3 open) and I now have a system with 3 megs of static column 256x4 RAM and 1meg of page-mode DIP CHIP ram. That is I have 1M DIP CHIP, 1M DIP FAST, 2M ZIP FAST. All of my fast memory is Static Column. It works great! >STATIC COLUMN chips offer more storage, and greater speed, and are more >expensive than PAGE MODE chips. Average Static Column pricing is around >$35-$42 per chip. STATIC COLUMN RAM allows faster reading of sequential memory. It is useful when you are using a CPU that has a CACHE and you want to burst in a section of memory into the CPU so that it can be executed without delay for memory refresh. Static column is only slightly more expensive than page mode, but 1Mx4 is about *twice* as expensive per megabyte as 256x4. Also, if you want to leave your current fast mem in place, you *must* buy 256x4. This is because you cannot put 1Mx4 ZIPS in while the 256x4 static column DIPS that come with the machine are also seated for use as fast mem. If you buy 1Mx4 you *must* move your DIPS from fast memory to CHIP memory. >It is highly suggested to buy only the STATIC COLUMN chips - SCRAMS allow >the Amiga to use it's fastest operation modes with a minimum of wait states >and such. > >The directions starting on page 4-13 of the "Introducing the Commodore Amiga >3000" manual explain this entire operation completly with all warnings that >should be heeded. > >I have heard that there are troubles with using the Page Mode chips but I >don't know what truth to trust them with. The Static Column chips are >better, faster and store more per chip. Again, I cannot emphasise enough how wrong this is - Static Column is a mode of operation - it has nothing to do with memory density!!! >For less than $300, you can get the 8 SCRAMS from a memory dealer, and they >install in less than an hour. The most important thing is the location of >the chips on the motherboard. Bank 0 must be filled first, and those >sockets are in a spread out pattern hiding with the other banks. Fill the >first sockets of each column, and then skip 3 sockets and put another chip >in. Repeat another two times, and set the jumper (J852) so that it connects >the rearmost pin and the one in front of it, and then you will have four >megs of ram. > >Also, remember that the first meg of fast ram must be moved from it's >sockets in front of the ZIP sockets, into the empty sockets on the opposite >side of the motherboard. These chips retire from fast ram to become the new >extra megabyte of CHIP ram. This MUST be done if updating the total memory >in the machine. There are no jumpers to set. Wrong again. I have a system right now with 1MEG of 256x4 DIP SCRAMS (that you are talking about) with 2MEG of 256x4 *ZIP* SCRAMS in banks 1 and 2. Page 4-10 of the manual states "The 8 DIP locations and the 8 lowest numbered ZIP locations are elctronically equivalent (both are bank 0). RAM chips can be installed in either the DIP section or the first bank of the ZIP section, but not both." In summary, if you buy Static Column 256x4 ZIPS, you can add up to 3 meg of ZIPS in banks 1, 2, and 3. There is no use in moving your static column 256x4 DIPS to CHIP when you could just put page mode in there anyway. The CHIP ram can't even take advantage of the Static Column feature anyway. >Mostly, in all of this, follow this one rule: RTFM - and things will be >okay. Before giving advice, maybe you should take it yourself. Later, Aaron Hightower PS: Check out my tetris game @ ab20:/incoming/amiga/yatc.lzh or ab20:/amiga/games/yatc.lzh depending...
markv@kuhub.cc.ukans.edu (05/23/91)
> First of all, there's no such thing as a "SIPP".The name refers to the part's > physical configuration. Yup, but I beg to differ. A SIMM of course is a little baby PC board with RAM and an itty-bitty edge connector. SIPPs do exist, some PCs use them. They are like SIMMs, except instead of an edge connector they have a row of pins that go in a "real" socket. Look at many 386/486 clone motherboards for applications. SIPPs are popular for the same reason ZIPs are, since they are pins they can go straight in without the "tipping" in that SIMMs need you can get high MB p/sq in ratios. (Now *there* is a new spec). To be complete, SC DRAMs will work fine with Page mode DRAMs, you'll just always be using them in page mode accesses and not gain any benifit. Also, Burst in general (on any machine) does not require SC parts, only the 3000 because of its design. Other techniques (Interleaving, faster DRAMs, Nybble mode DRAMs, etc) can be used to speed up DRAMs enough. SC of course is uniquely appropriate for supporting bursting in particular. > -- > Dave Haynie Commodore-Amiga (Amiga 3000) "The Crew That Never Rests" > {uunet|pyramid|rutgers}!cbmvax!daveh PLINK: hazy BIX: hazy > "That's me in the corner, that's me in the spotlight" -R.E.M. -- ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Mark Gooderum Only... \ Good Cheer !!! Academic Computing Services /// \___________________________ University of Kansas /// /| __ _ Bix: mgooderum \\\ /// /__| |\/| | | _ /_\ makes it Bitnet: MARKV@UKANVAX \/\/ / | | | | |__| / \ possible... Internet: markv@kuhub.cc.ukans.edu ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
hgschmie@immd4.informatik.uni-erlangen.de (Henning Schmiedehausen) (05/24/91)
In <RX5022w163w@dworkin.Amber.COM> johns@dworkin.Amber.COM (John Silvia) writes: >Mostly, in all of this, follow this one rule: RTFM - and things will be >okay. Hi! Thank you, I'm still waiting for my manual (and the attached computer ;). I wanted to purchase the RAMS before I get the machine. But anyway, all of you helped me a great deal. Thanks! Ciao Henning --- ONLY /// Real: Henning Schmiedehausen | Logik? Logik und Berechen- __ /// INT: hgschmie@immd4.uni-erlangen.de | barkeit? Was ist das? \\\/// UUCP: henning@castle.erh.sub.org | Kann man das essen? \XX/ AMIGA 1510 -- UUCP 1.12D | Commissioner SubNet Electronic Football League
daveh@cbmvax.commodore.com (Dave Haynie) (05/24/91)
In article <1991May22.211639.8633@menudo.uh.edu> jet@casc.math.uh.edu (J Eric Townsend) writes: >In article <RX5022w163w@dworkin.Amber.COM> johns@dworkin.Amber.COM (John Silvia) writes: >>STATIC COLUMN chips offer more storage, and greater speed, and are more >>expensive than PAGE MODE chips. Average Static Column pricing is around >>$35-$42 per chip. >Is it because they happen to be larger chips (1Kx4 instead of 256x4), or is it >for some more nefarious reason? No, static column and page mode DRAMs come in both sizes. The static column memories are faster in the A3000 because the RAMSEY chip can support 68030 cache line burst fetches. It normally takes the RAMSEY chip 20 clock cycles to get 4 longwords. With RAMSEY's burst, it can get four consecutive longwords in 11 clock cycles. This doesn't actually double performance, but it does increase speed noticably in most cases. -- Dave Haynie Commodore-Amiga (Amiga 3000) "The Crew That Never Rests" {uunet|pyramid|rutgers}!cbmvax!daveh PLINK: hazy BIX: hazy "That's me in the corner, that's me in the spotlight" -R.E.M.
daveh@cbmvax.commodore.com (Dave Haynie) (05/24/91)
In article <1991May22.174606.30987@kuhub.cc.ukans.edu> markv@kuhub.cc.ukans.edu writes: >> First of all, there's no such thing as a "SIPP".The name refers to the part's >> physical configuration. >Yup, but I beg to differ. A SIMM of course is a little baby PC board >with RAM and an itty-bitty edge connector. SIPPs do exist, some PCs >use them. I have seen SIP parts in use before, of course. Like the Amiga video hybrid, Single In-line package. I haven't seen anything like that in RAM, but I don't spend much time with PClones either. SIMMs are apparently the most popular "add-it-yourself" form of memory; I've seen these on PClone, Macs, Suns, and even some Amiga add-on boards. >Also, Burst in general (on any machine) does not require SC parts, only the >3000 because of its design. That's absolutely true. With slightly faster memory and/or a faster clock to work with, we (Greg, actually) could probably have managed to support burst mode with page mode memories. >Other techniques (Interleaving, faster DRAMs, Nybble mode DRAMs, etc) can be >used to speed up DRAMs enough. SC of course is uniquely appropriate for >supporting bursting in particular. Actually, Nybble-mode memories are the most "natural" at supporting burst cycles, since the 68030 burst cycle is essentially the same kind of cycle as a DRAM's nybble-mode. Burst mode starts with a address for the first longword, but the next three use an assumed address that are sequential, MOD 4, from this base address. Nybble-mode memory works just the same way. Static column, on the other hand, requires an exact address for every word, which the RAMSEY chip creates. However, you need more nybble-mode (because it's generally only in "x1" packages) or interleaved memory (because it counts on banks) to support burst, while using a smart RAM controller and static column (or page mode, if the timing worked out), you can get by with only a single bank. No DRAM is fast enough to support 68030 burst at 25MHz without some kind of special mode or interleave techniques. -- Dave Haynie Commodore-Amiga (Amiga 3000) "The Crew That Never Rests" {uunet|pyramid|rutgers}!cbmvax!daveh PLINK: hazy BIX: hazy "That's me in the corner, that's me in the spotlight" -R.E.M.
6600dmx@ucsbuxa.ucsb.edu (Richard A. Boyd) (05/25/91)
When it comes to installing memory in the A3000, how did you protect against static discharge?
milamber@caen.engin.umich.edu (Daryl Cantrell) (05/25/91)
In article <RX5022w163w@dworkin.Amber.COM> johns@dworkin.Amber.COM (John Silvia) writes: >There are two types of expansion ram for an A3000. There is PAGE MODE and >STATIC COLUMN mode. The Page Mode chips are 256X4, and the Static Column >chips are1024X4. 8 of either types of these chips are required for the >minimum memory expansion. Size has nothing to do with the DRAM vs. SCRAM classification. Both page mode and static column RAMs are available in 256Kx4 and 1Mx4. >Also, types of chips cannot be mixed in the same system. Either it's all >PAGE MODE or all STATIC COLUMN. Not exactly. If you want the BENEFITS of static column ram, you can't mix them.. >STATIC COLUMN chips offer more storage, and greater speed, and are more >expensive than PAGE MODE chips. Average Static Column pricing is around >$35-$42 per chip. They both offer the same storage capacity. See above. Note that they don't really cost any more than page mode to produce. >It is highly suggested to buy only the STATIC COLUMN chips - SCRAMS allow >the Amiga to use it's fastest operation modes with a minimum of wait states >and such. Yep. [...] >Also, remember that the first meg of fast ram must be moved from it's >sockets in front of the ZIP sockets, into the empty sockets on the opposite >side of the motherboard. These chips retire from fast ram to become the new >extra megabyte of CHIP ram. This MUST be done if updating the total memory >in the machine. There are no jumpers to set. Sigh. Also wrong. If you're upgrading with 256Kx4 parts, you can choose to leave them in place (they're SCRAMs, BTW). The DIP sockets and the first bank of ZIPs are hard-wired to each other (ie, electrically equivalent). -- +---------------------------------------+----------------------------+ | // Daryl S. Cantrell | These opinions are | | |\\\ milamber@caen.engin.umich.edu | shared by all of // | | |// Evolution's over. We won. | Humanity. \X/ | +---------------------------------------+----------------------------+
DAN.BENDIKSEN@f601.n105.z1.FIDONET.ORG (DAN BENDIKSEN) (05/28/91)
>the timing worked out), you can get by with only a single bank. No DRAM is >fast enough to support 68030 burst at 25MHz without some kind of special >mode or interleave techniques. >-- >Dave Haynie Commodore-Amiga (Amiga 3000) "The Crew That Never Rests" I was wondering if there is any advantage to using static column rams that are faster than 80ns, and if so, what is the best speed, and the fastest speed that will still give you improved performance. Thanks, Dan Bendiksen. -- DAN BENDIKSEN - via FidoNet node 1:105/14 UUCP: ...!{uunet, reed}!glacier!busker!601!DAN.BENDIKSEN INTERNET: DAN.BENDIKSEN@f601.n105.z1.FIDONET.ORG