jkh@MEEPMEEP.PCS.COM (Jordan K. Hubbard) (05/14/91)
First off, let me stave off the bad initial impression that subject
line is going to make by saying that this is NOT another Advocacy
article creaping into c.s.a.h, or an ANTI-Amiga flame (I have a hot-rodded
A500 that I'm very very happy with). I just wanted to clear up a few
points to my own satisfaction.
First off, to quote off the top of my head (meaning some of this may
be wrong and should be taken with a pinch of salt):
1. The A3000 comes (typically) with a 25Mhz 68030, 2MB Agnus (+PAL/NTSC),
Enhanced Denise, 32 bit wide memory controller and built-in SCSI
interface, to quote some of its major features.
It provides several expansion slots, and has some internal room for 2
additional drives. 2.0 and 1.3 are options. Amiga UX comes extra.
Typical pricing is ~2.5K US Dollars in the U.S., though substantially
higher (around DM7000 minimum) in Europe.
2. The A2000 comes with a 7Mhz 68000, 1MB Agnus (newer models) and normal
Denise. No special memory burst mode features, no clever 1.3/2.0 boot
options. Provides more slots than A3000 and is currently compatable
with the video toaster and several other peripherals who's A3000
compatability is currently in doubt (note: I'm not saying that things
will stay that way; they can't. But it's a current "feature" of the A2000
that should be mentioned, to be fair). Amiga UX is not yet announced.
Typical pricing is DM1700 in Europe, unknown pricing in U.S
(though with all the used ones flooding the market, it can't be much).
Now if we look at the cost of a 68030 upgrade (which have become much more
aggressively priced, thanks to the A3000) + Enhanced Denise + 2.0 ROMS
(which will probably be installed on a switcher board with the original 1.3
ROMS, by most folks) + SCSI Controller + Flicker fixer, you're probably
looking at another DM3000, at conservative estimate. This brings the total
price up to around DM5000 (again, rounding up conservatively). This is pretty
competitive, considering that the only feature you're really missing
out on is the special memory controller. This will be offset somewhat, for
some people, by a 68000 fallback mode for unruly programs and additional
expansion capabilities. Relative importance is hard to judge, but
I would think that it would be far easier to put up with a slower
memory bus than it would be to deal with an software failure rate of
as little as 10%, especially if one of the failing programs was
a former workhorse for you.
So, assuming that one has a couple of months more to wait for 2.0 and
ECS chips to become available for the A2000, can you really tell me
where the the major win lies in getting an A3000? This goes double
in Europe, where prices are still rather hallucinogenic.
Again - please no flames, this isn't a "Oh Gee, Commodore has really
screwed us now" polemic on the merits of the A2000/A3000, this genuine
bewilderment about where my money is best spent.
! Jordan
---
PCS Computer Systeme GmbH, Munich, Germany
UUCP: ..!pyramid!pcsbst!jkh
EUNET: ..!unido!pcsbst!jkh
ARPA: jkh@meepmeep.pcs.com or jkh@violet.berkeley.edujudge@alchemy.tcnet.ithaca.ny.us (rory toma) (05/14/91)
> > So, assuming that one has a couple of months more to wait for 2.0 and > ECS chips to become available for the A2000, can you really tell me > where the the major win lies in getting an A3000? This goes double > in Europe, where prices are still rather hallucinogenic. > One thing the 2000 doesn't have, is a 32-bit cpu slot. For about $700-$1000 US, you can easily expand to a 68040. For a 2000, it'll cost about $3000. You'll notice the bus speed difference whenan '040 is put in. rory
ewilts@janus.mtroyal.ab.ca (Ed Wilts) (05/15/91)
In article <m0jcgo3-0003IVC@meepmeep.pcs.com>, jkh@MEEPMEEP.PCS.COM (Jordan K. Hubbard) writes: > > 1. The A3000 comes (typically) with a 25Mhz 68030, 2MB Agnus (+PAL/NTSC), > Enhanced Denise, 32 bit wide memory controller and built-in SCSI > interface, to quote some of its major features. > It provides several expansion slots, and has some internal room for 2 > additional drives. 2.0 and 1.3 are options. Amiga UX comes extra. Amiga UX is not available separately (yet). I'm not even sure if it has been announced as a separate product. 1.3 is available on Amiga 3000s sold today, but may not be when 2.0 gets burned into ROM. Two versions of the A3000 are available, one at 16 MHz, one at 25 MHz. Both 2 additional drive slots are 3.5". AmigaBasic is not included with the A3000... > 2. The A2000 comes with a 7Mhz 68000, 1MB Agnus (newer models) and normal > Denise. No special memory burst mode features, no clever 1.3/2.0 boot > options. Provides more slots than A3000 and is currently compatable More slots but more demand to put stuff into slots. The 3000 has on-board expansion for SCSI, memory (18 MB total), and the Flicker-Fixer. Basically, the A3000 is MORE expandable than the 2000 DEPENDING ON WHAT YOU USE YOUR EXPANSION SLOTS FOR. The 2000 has 1 extra 3.5" bay and 1 extra 5.25" bay; the A3000 has 2 extra 3.5" bays. The 2000 is a big winner for Bridgeboard slots. You may also consider the A3000T for expandibility. > with the video toaster and several other peripherals who's A3000 > compatability is currently in doubt (note: I'm not saying that things > will stay that way; they can't. But it's a current "feature" of the A2000 > that should be mentioned, to be fair). Amiga UX is not yet announced. It's a current "BUG" in the Toaster. They violated board layout specs. > Now if we look at the cost of a 68030 upgrade (which have become much more > aggressively priced, thanks to the A3000) + Enhanced Denise + 2.0 ROMS > (which will probably be installed on a switcher board with the original 1.3 > ROMS, by most folks) + SCSI Controller + Flicker fixer, you're probably > looking at another DM3000, at conservative estimate. This brings the total > price up to around DM5000 (again, rounding up conservatively). This is pretty > competitive, considering that the only feature you're really missing > out on is the special memory controller. This will be offset somewhat, for > some people, by a 68000 fallback mode for unruly programs and additional > expansion capabilities. Relative importance is hard to judge, but > I would think that it would be far easier to put up with a slower > memory bus than it would be to deal with an software failure rate of > as little as 10%, especially if one of the failing programs was > a former workhorse for you. You also haven't allowed for the limitation of chip ram in the 2000. The A3000 allows for up to 2MB of chip; the A2000 for 1. And, more important for many users, you have hardware support from a single vendor in your A3000 solution., To get a comparable A2000 upgraded system at competitive pricing (which seems to be a primary concern of yours), you're most likely looking at least 3 or 4 vendors. If you end up with a hardware problem, you're going to have fun... You also can't price out either the ECS upgrade, nor the 2.0 upgrade, since neither is available yet. On the other hand, you could wait a few months until both of those are standard in 2000-based systems. Note that all A3000 fast memory is 32-bit memory; on the A2000, you will have some 16-bit on-board memory,. As for software compatibility, I have found VERY FEW programs that don't work for me. My big "workhorse" was Dr.T's KCS, and the upgrade for that arrived last week. Commodore is to be commended on their efforts with 2.0. I've only booted 1.3 for testing since I got my Amiga A3000 with 2.02 in March. All my "production" work is under 2.0. > ! Jordan > > PCS Computer Systeme GmbH, Munich, Germany -- .../Ed Preferrred: Ed.Wilts@BSC.Galaxy.BCSystems.Gov.BC.CA Ed Wilts Alternate: EdWilts@BCSC02.BITNET (604) 389-3430 B.C. Systems Corp., 4000 Seymour Place, Victoria, B.C., Canada, V8X 4S8
daveh@cbmvax.commodore.com (Dave Haynie) (05/15/91)
In article <m0jcgo3-0003IVC@meepmeep.pcs.com> jkh@MEEPMEEP.PCS.COM (Jordan K. Hubbard) writes: >1. The A3000 comes (typically) with a 25Mhz 68030, 2MB Agnus (+PAL/NTSC), ... >2. The A2000 comes with a 7Mhz 68000, 1MB Agnus (newer models) and normal >Now if we look at the cost of a 68030 upgrade (which have become much more >aggressively priced, thanks to the A3000) + Enhanced Denise + 2.0 ROMS >(which will probably be installed on a switcher board with the original 1.3 >ROMS, by most folks) + SCSI Controller + Flicker fixer, you're probably >looking at another DM3000, at conservative estimate. Depending on how you add all that stuff, there's a good chance the A2000 will no longer have more slots, other than the PC Bus slots. With a SCSI controller, flickerFixer, and accelerator board, you can easily occupy one Zorro II slot, the video slot, and the Coprocessor slot. That leaves four Amiga slots and four PC slots (with an overlap of two) free. The A3000 with have its Coprocessor slot, four Amiga slots with two PC and one video in-lines free. You might be able to get an all-in-one accelerator/SCSI board and bring up the A2000 to five free slots, though I don't if that's the cheapest route. >competitive, considering that the only feature you're really missing >out on is the special memory controller. You're also missing out on 32 bit expansion slots, the 32 bit Coprocessor slot, 32 bit Chip memory, 32 bit SCSI, and 18MB total expansion. Actually, the memory controller is the least of what you're missing. Some accelerator boards have burst mode memory too. I think the new GVP board will allow up to 16MB of 32 bit wide memory to be plugged in (not sure), most stop at 4MB-8MB. No accelerator board can give you 32 bit wide Chip RAM. No accelerator board can give you 32 bit wide SCSI, which basically gives you most of your 68030 free during hard disk transfers (other SCSI devices can eat from 1/2 to all of your 68030 time, even at moderate transfer rates). Though 32 bit RAM cards are not out yet, they can expansion the A3000 to hundreds of megabytes of RAM, if that's something of interest to you. Or fast 32 bit peripherals, another thing you can't get on your A2000. The question is really one each person has to answer for him or herself. You need to think of what you're going to put into your "free" slots. An empty slot buys you nothing if it never gets filled. A fully expanded A2000 may have lots of empty slots if done carefully, but an A3000 comes pretty close, and the slots that are free are far more useful on the A3000 if you're looking to the future. The main advantage of an enhanced A2000 system is that you can buy it in pieces: A2000 today, then the hard drive, then an accelerator, then the flickerFixer, etc. The A3000 comes complete, but if you can't afford that, you'll have to wait with no computer while you save, rather than gradually easing into the computer system you want. -- Dave Haynie Commodore-Amiga (Amiga 3000) "The Crew That Never Rests" {uunet|pyramid|rutgers}!cbmvax!daveh PLINK: hazy BIX: hazy "That's me in the corner, that's me in the spotlight" -R.E.M.
etj90 (Khaos - the Demon in the Machine) (05/21/91)
In <1991May14.150548.8214@janus.mtroyal.ab.ca> ewilts@janus.mtroyal.ab.ca (Ed Wilts) writes: >You also haven't allowed for the limitation of chip ram in the 2000. The A3000 >allows for up to 2MB of chip; the A2000 for 1. And, more important for many BZZZT !!! Now CSA are doing a board for the 500/2000 that gives 2 Meg Chip RAM !!!
echadez@isis.cs.du.edu (Edward Vincent Chadez) (05/22/91)
In article <7742@ecs.soton.ac.uk> etj90 (Khaos - the Demon in the Machine) writes: >In <1991May14.150548.8214@janus.mtroyal.ab.ca> ewilts@janus.mtroyal.ab.ca (Ed Wilts) writes: >>You also haven't allowed for the limitation of chip ram in the 2000. The A3000 >>allows for up to 2MB of chip; the A2000 for 1. And, more important for many > >BZZZT !!! Now CSA are doing a board for the 500/2000 that gives 2 Meg Chip RAM !!! ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ Does anyone else have any details on this? Especially: is it intended to work either with or without CSA MMR?? Thanks in advance. Ed
tsarver@andersen.uucp (Tom Sarver) (05/23/91)
In article <377X24w162w@alchemy.tcnet.ithaca.ny.us> judge@alchemy.tcnet.ithaca.ny.us (rory toma) writes: >> >> So, assuming that one has a couple of months more to wait for 2.0 and >> ECS chips to become available for the A2000, can you really tell me >> where the the major win lies in getting an A3000? This goes double >> in Europe, where prices are still rather hallucinogenic. >> >One thing the 2000 doesn't have, is a 32-bit cpu slot. For about >$700-$1000 US, you can easily expand to a 68040. For a 2000, it'll cost >about $3000. You'll notice the bus speed difference whenan '040 is put >in. > >rory In addition to above, I'm willing to pay for the 32-bit bus all around. The only 16-bit bus in an A3000 connects the custom chips to stuff (chip memory, I/O, etc.). Conversely, the only 32-bit bus on an A2000 is between the 68030 and its 32-bit RAM. Tell me that don't make a big difference. I'm also willing to buy into a platform (A3000) which was built to run Unix. I'm not saying an A2000 CAN'T run Unix, but you might have a bit more difficult time doing it. Yo, --Tom
daveh@cbmvax.commodore.com (Dave Haynie) (05/25/91)
In article <1991May23.144823.16337@casbah.acns.nwu.edu> tsarver@andersen.uucp (Tom Sarver) writes: >In article <377X24w162w@alchemy.tcnet.ithaca.ny.us> judge@alchemy.tcnet.ithaca.ny.us (rory toma) writes: >>> So, assuming that one has a couple of months more to wait for 2.0 and >>> ECS chips to become available for the A2000, can you really tell me >>> where the the major win lies in getting an A3000? >>One thing the 2000 doesn't have, is a 32-bit cpu slot. >In addition to above, I'm willing to pay for the 32-bit bus all around. >The only 16-bit bus in an A3000 connects the custom chips to stuff (chip >memory, I/O, etc.). Conversely, the only 32-bit bus on an A2000 is >between the 68030 and its 32-bit RAM. >Tell me that don't make a big difference. It does, especially for UNIX. If your just run a simple CPU benchmark, the A3000 without DRAM burst on and an A2500/30 should be the same. However, the CPU is the easy part. UNIX tends to rely pretty heavily on hard disk bandwidth. The A3000's disk DMA bandwidth is around 5x that of the A2500/30. Which means the CPU still gets to do lots of work, even when you're taking page faults. Also, UNIX's X windows is all CPU driven. The A3000's CPU has twice the bandwidth to Chip RAM that the A2500/30 does. So there are definite differences. >I'm also willing to buy into a platform (A3000) which was built to run Unix. >I'm not saying an A2000 CAN'T run Unix, but you might have a bit more >difficult time doing it. Strangely enough, the A2500 came into existence based on a desire to run UNIX, even though it managed to essentially get replaced a couple of times before UNIX was done. When the A500 was finished, Bob Welland, the guy behind the A500/A2000 Gary chip and the Gary/Fat Agnus architecture, went looking for a new project. He and George Robbins (the other 1/2 of the A500 systems team) had previously been working on the C900, a Z8000-based UNIX system that was cancelled when C= bought Amiga. Anyway, Bob wanted UNIX on the Amiga. So he started to play around with 68020s and custom MMU designs. He actually came up with an MMU and cache chip set that looked strangely like a 68040 when all put together. However, by then the 68851 was available, so he started building a 68020 proto board based on that MMU. About that time, I got done with A2000 stuff and came along to help out with the 68020 project, the A2620. A few months later, Bob left and I ultimately finished up the A2620, and later whipped up the A2630. So, while not as ideal for UNIX as an A3000, these A2500 systems were designed with UNIX in mind. The Amiga will handle UNIX better than most personal computers because it was designed with multitasking in mind, so things are DMA and interrupt driven rather than PIO and polled. -- Dave Haynie Commodore-Amiga (Amiga 3000) "The Crew That Never Rests" {uunet|pyramid|rutgers}!cbmvax!daveh PLINK: hazy BIX: hazy "That's me in the corner, that's me in the spotlight" -R.E.M.
zerobeat@intacc.uucp (Ferenc Szabo) (05/25/91)
C I've been an Atari user since '85 (doing 95% music) so forgive me if my question is naive. I was at a friends house last week and was totally blown away by the animation software on an old 1000 model. Sounds corny, but I've seen my new calling in life and it is animation! Question: As a first time user would it be better for me to buy an Amiga 500 (I've seen complete used systems for $600 Canadian) or will I appreciate the enormous jump in power to an '030 at 25MHZ? The money isn't my biggest concern (well it's a big one alright) but I was thinking this: If I got an el-cheapo system now and then in a few months or a year I would really know what I want (peripherals etc). Then by that time something new would be out (amiga 4000?) that would be the obvious high end system to buy. I would still keep my ST for Notator, WP, DTP. ferenc email prefered but I'll try to remember to call up this nsgrp. hey 07, you out there? 32 B Summary: Expires: References: <m0jcgo3-0003IVC@meepmeep.pcs.com> <377X24w162w@alchemy.tcnet.ithaca.ny.us> <1991May23.144823.16337@casbah.acns.nwu.edu> Sender: Followup-To: Distribution: Organization: Inter/Access Artists' Centre Toronto Keywords:
watters@favorite.cis.ohio-state.edu (david r watters) (05/27/91)
In article <21895@cbmvax.commodore.com> daveh@cbmvax.commodore.com (Dave Haynie) writes: >Strangely enough, the A2500 came into existence based on a desire to run UNIX, >even though it managed to essentially get replaced a couple of times before >UNIX was done. . . Interesting, behind the scenes info deleted. (How about some more?!) . . >So, while not as ideal for UNIX as an A3000, these A2500 systems were designed >with UNIX in mind. The Amiga will handle UNIX better than most personal >computers because it was designed with multitasking in mind, so things are DMA >and interrupt driven rather than PIO and polled. Which leads to another important question. While the A3000 is a _great_ unix platform, How well will the A2500/30 do with Unix. Can you give any info on if this will finally come to be, and what all will be involved (hardware/cost)? Rephrased, if you have a A2500/30 and would like to do Unix, for school, work, and fun, will it be nice (ie. not that bad), or should you regroup and get an A3000architecture machine? >Dave Haynie Commodore-Amiga (Amiga 3000) "The Crew That Never Rests" I think we should call to votes a new newsgroup called: Comp.Sys.Amiga.Ask_Dave_Haynie! ///\ _ '_/ \X//_/(/|//(/ -- "All of us get lost in the darkness, dreamers learn to steer by the stars. All of us do time in the gutter, dreamers turn to look at the cars!" - RUSH David watters@cis.ohio-state.edu "It's 12:35... and Michigan STILL sucks." _-_-_-__---_---_---__-_-_-____ TurboExpress : The Neo*Geo of portables _____
daveh@cbmvax.commodore.com (Dave Haynie) (05/29/91)
In article <126433@tut.cis.ohio-state.edu> watters@favorite.cis.ohio-state.edu (david r watters) writes: >In article <21895@cbmvax.commodore.com> daveh@cbmvax.commodore.com (Dave Haynie) writes: >Rephrased, if you have a A2500/30 and would like to do Unix, for school, work, >and fun, will it be nice (ie. not that bad), or should you regroup and get >an A3000architecture machine? The A2500/30 will run CPU intensive stuff nearly as fast as the A3000. The two main problems are disk and memory. Disk speed will be almost as fast, but the system throughput during disk activity will be much less. Still better than UNIX on most PClones or Macs, but if you're paging heavily, you'll notice the difference. The other problem is that the A2630 board is limited to 4MB of 32 bit wide RAM on-board, and there are currently no daughterboards on the market. UNIX tends to be memory hungry, so a 4MB system will run slower than an 8MB system, it'll require more paging. >I think we should call to votes a new newsgroup called: >Comp.Sys.Amiga.Ask_Dave_Haynie! Uh, maybe not... -- Dave Haynie Commodore-Amiga (Amiga 3000) "The Crew That Never Rests" {uunet|pyramid|rutgers}!cbmvax!daveh PLINK: hazy BIX: hazy "That's me in the corner, that's me in the spotlight" -R.E.M.
jesup@cbmvax.commodore.com (Randell Jesup) (05/30/91)
In article <22004@cbmvax.commodore.com> daveh@cbmvax.commodore.com (Dave Haynie) writes: >The A2500/30 will run CPU intensive stuff nearly as fast as the A3000. The >two main problems are disk and memory. Disk speed will be almost as fast, >but the system throughput during disk activity will be much less. An example: when playing with the ST1480N (400+MB 4400 rpm drive), we found that Diskspeed said 1.5 MB/s for the center of the disk on an A2500/030 plus 2091, and said 1.7 MB/s for an A3000. That was the first time I had noticed a difference of that sort. (BTW, that drive does 2MB/s on the outer tracks.) Note: this was a signifigantly non-scientific test. -- Randell Jesup, Jack-of-quite-a-few-trades, Commodore Engineering. {uunet|rutgers}!cbmvax!jesup, jesup@cbmvax.cbm.commodore.com BIX: rjesup Disclaimer: Nothing I say is anything other than my personal opinion. "No matter where you go, there you are." - Buckaroo Banzai