tony@ais.org (Tony Poole) (06/02/91)
I have a question that has to deal with a 16 Mhz A3000. I am thinking about upgrading from a A1000, to an A3000, but don't think I can afford the extra three or four hundred bucks that it would take to buy a 25 Mhz 3000, so I may be aiming at the 16 Mhz. I am told from my local dealer that this computer would not be upgradable to 25 Mhz because the CPU is soldered in. What I want to know is this: Will I be able to, sometime in the future, purchase a third party board to connect expansion wise, and upgrade to 25 Mhz, exactly the same as if I actually bought a 25 Mhz model? I mean EXACTLY the same as, not close.... Is this the only difference between the two models? I don't want to lay down the bucks now, and then later wish I had sold my wife and dog to get the 25 Mhz (NO! I wouldn't do THAT....would I?). I'm sure this has been covered before, but I'm not gonna wade through screens of messages.....I'd rather waste "hundreds, if not thousands" of the net's money! Thanks! ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Tony Poole Traverse City, MI USA EMail:tony@irie.ais.org ____________________________________________________________________________
rbabel@babylon.rmt.sub.org (Ralph Babel) (06/03/91)
In article <1991Jun2.143032.47227@vaxb.acs.unt.edu>, wright@etsuv2.etsu.edu (BRIAN WRIGHT) writes: > For example, when the 040 boards are released and you buy > one and put it in. If you benchmarked a 25 mhz machine > AND a 16 mhz machine with the SAME 040 board in place > (without the motherboard's CPU active) they'll run exactly > the same speed. ... assuming the '040 board supplies the clock signals. Ralph
wright@etsuv2.etsu.edu (BRIAN WRIGHT) (06/03/91)
In article <MTVC!M?@irie.ais.org>, tony@ais.org (Tony Poole) writes... > > I have a question that has to deal with a 16 Mhz A3000. > I am thinking about upgrading from a A1000, to an A3000, but don't >think I can afford the extra three or four hundred bucks that it would >take to buy a 25 Mhz 3000, so I may be aiming at the 16 Mhz. > I am told from my local dealer that this computer would not be upgradable >to 25 Mhz because the CPU is soldered in. > What I want to know is this: Will I be able to, sometime in the future, >purchase a third party board to connect expansion wise, and upgrade >to 25 Mhz, exactly the same as if I actually bought a 25 Mhz model? >I mean EXACTLY the same as, not close.... Tony, the main and ONLY difference between the 16 mhz and 25 mhz version is the speed of the CPU (16 or 25 mhz) and the math coprocessor (881/882). Everything else is exactly the same. If Commodore ever released a 25 Mhz card for the 16 mhz version, it would fit into the CPU slot allowing your motherboard to go at full 25 mhz (EXACTLY like the 25 mhz version). If that CPU board happens to leave your motherboard's 030 active, the max rate your motherboard will be 16 mhz (because that's as fast as your motherboard's 030 can go). For example, when the 040 boards are released and you buy one and put it in. If you benchmarked a 25 mhz machine AND a 16 mhz machine with the SAME 040 board in place (without the motherboard's CPU active) they'll run exactly the same speed. With the motherboard's 030 active, I couldn't say what the results might be, but the 25 mhz 030 on motherboard should probably be faster. The 030 on the motherboard can't be easily replaced by a faster 030 as they ARE soldered. This holds for the 881 math chip as well. The 179 pin CPU slot more than makes up for this, though. Don't let this salesman fool you. He's trying to get a larger sale. The ONLY drawback to the 16 mhz model is the parallel processing type sitation (with the 040). > Is this the only difference between the two models? > I don't want to lay down the bucks now, and then later wish I had >sold my wife and dog to get the 25 Mhz (NO! I wouldn't do THAT....would I?). > I'm sure this has been covered before, but I'm not gonna wade >through screens of messages.....I'd rather waste "hundreds, if not >thousands" of the net's money! > Thanks! For me, I felt it was a little costly for the extra $400 for such a little speed improvement (for what I do with it). I went with the 16 mhz. The 040s will be out very soon and that $400 could easily apply to that card and bring the price down to a reasonable range. As for the 25 mhz, if you don't plan on getting an 040 any time soon, then it would probably be a better buy for you. I do plan on getting an 040 as soon as they are released and so my $400 is better spent towards that card. FYI, The first 040 cards to be released will probably not have the parallel processing capability mentioned above. So, at first, all 040s will run the same speed on ALL 3000s. Of course, the 040 is fast enough that even without the other CPU active, it will STILL be DARN fast. :-) >---------------------------------------------------------------------------- >Tony Poole Traverse City, MI USA EMail:tony@irie.ais.org >____________________________________________________________________________ -------------------------------------------------------------- Brian Wright wright%etsuvax2@ricevm1.rice.edu or wright@etsuvax2.bitnet -------------------------------------------------------------- Standard Disclaimer... not my words and all that jazz.
mks@cbmvax.commodore.com (Michael Sinz) (06/03/91)
In article <MTVC!M?@irie.ais.org> tony@ais.org (Tony Poole) writes: > > I have a question that has to deal with a 16 Mhz A3000. > I am thinking about upgrading from a A1000, to an A3000, but don't >think I can afford the extra three or four hundred bucks that it would >take to buy a 25 Mhz 3000, so I may be aiming at the 16 Mhz. > I am told from my local dealer that this computer would not be upgradable >to 25 Mhz because the CPU is soldered in. > What I want to know is this: Will I be able to, sometime in the future, >purchase a third party board to connect expansion wise, and upgrade >to 25 Mhz, exactly the same as if I actually bought a 25 Mhz model? >I mean EXACTLY the same as, not close.... There is no way to make it EXACTLY the same. One of the problems is that if you get a 68040 card that also lets you run the motherboard CPU, the 68040 will have to run at 16MHz access to RAM on the motherboard and that would make things very slow. Either that or the motherboard CPU is disabled and the CPU card tries to drive the motherboard clocks. Again, this is not exactly the same as if you bought the 25MHz model. > Is this the only difference between the two models? There are some jumper differences and the fact that the FPU is a 68881 rather than a 68882. > I don't want to lay down the bucks now, and then later wish I had >sold my wife and dog to get the 25 Mhz (NO! I wouldn't do THAT....would I?). > I'm sure this has been covered before, but I'm not gonna wade >through screens of messages.....I'd rather waste "hundreds, if not >thousands" of the net's money! > Thanks! /----------------------------------------------------------------------\ | /// Michael Sinz - Amiga Software Engineer | | /// Operating System Development Group | | /// BIX: msinz UUNET: rutgers!cbmvax!mks | |\\\/// | | \XX/ Quantum Physics: The Dreams that Stuff is made of. | \----------------------------------------------------------------------/
ewilts@janus.mtroyal.ab.ca (Ed Wilts) (06/03/91)
In article <MTVC!M?@irie.ais.org>, tony@ais.org (Tony Poole) writes: > I have a question that has to deal with a 16 Mhz A3000. > I am thinking about upgrading from a A1000, to an A3000, but don't > think I can afford the extra three or four hundred bucks that it would > take to buy a 25 Mhz 3000, so I may be aiming at the 16 Mhz. > I am told from my local dealer that this computer would not be upgradable > to 25 Mhz because the CPU is soldered in. Your dealer is correct. He may also have mentioned that hte floating point chip is different (68881 in the 16Mhz version, 68882 in the 25Mhz) > What I want to know is this: Will I be able to, sometime in the future, > purchase a third party board to connect expansion wise, and upgrade > to 25 Mhz, exactly the same as if I actually bought a 25 Mhz model? > I mean EXACTLY the same as, not close.... Now you're being ridiculous. A third-party board will NEVER give you EXACTLY what Commodore will give you. NEVER! You can, however, in the future, purchase a board from either Commodore or a third-party (several have been announced), that will bypass the 68030/6888x combination and use an accellerated CPU, lie a 68040. In this mode, it doesn't matter if you bought the 16 or the 25Mhz models. > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- > Tony Poole Traverse City, MI USA EMail:tony@irie.ais.org > ____________________________________________________________________________ -- .../Ed Preferrred: Ed.Wilts@BSC.Galaxy.BCSystems.Gov.BC.CA Ed Wilts Alternate: EdWilts@BCSC02.BITNET (604) 389-3430 B.C. Systems Corp., 4000 Seymour Place, Victoria, B.C., Canada, V8X 4S8
daveh@cbmvax.commodore.com (Dave Haynie) (06/03/91)
In article <MTVC!M?@irie.ais.org> tony@ais.org (Tony Poole) writes: > I am told from my local dealer that this computer would not be upgradable >to 25 Mhz because the CPU is soldered in. Well, yes and no. Unless you're a soldering wizard supreme, you don't stand a chance of removing the surface mounted 68030 and replacing it with a faster version. This isn't unusual; most computers run at one speed and, even if the CPU is removable, you won't be able to crank them up. But... > What I want to know is this: Will I be able to, sometime in the future, >purchase a third party board to connect expansion wise, and upgrade >to 25 Mhz, exactly the same as if I actually bought a 25 Mhz model? >I mean EXACTLY the same as, not close.... Well, strangely enough, all A3000s can work at either 16MHz or 25MHz, except for the speed of the on-board CPU/FPU. The A3000's coprocessor slot lets an expansion board disable the onboard CPU/FPU and supply an alternate system clock. So yes, it's possible for a 25MHz add-in to run the entire system at 25MHz. With such an add-in installed, there is no difference between an A3000 that came at 25MHz and the upgraded 16MHz system. The one difference is that it's technically possible, if you don't change the motherboard clock speed, to run a CPU slot processor at the same time as the onboard CPU. This won't likely be a big issue with any simple speedup boards, since there's not enough motherboard bus bandwidth to support two 68030s going full speed to motherboard memory. With a 68040 or cache/memory on a coprocessor board, this multiprocessor setup will work better. Still, the big problem is software support; right now, there is no software to take advantage of such a setup. >Tony Poole Traverse City, MI USA EMail:tony@irie.ais.org -- Dave Haynie Commodore-Amiga (Amiga 3000) "The Crew That Never Rests" {uunet|pyramid|rutgers}!cbmvax!daveh PLINK: hazy BIX: hazy "This is my mistake. Let me make it good." -R.E.M.
hwr@pilhuhn.ka.sub.org (Heiko W.Rupp) (06/04/91)
In article <22123@cbmvax.commodore.com>, Dave Haynie writes: > Well, strangely enough, all A3000s can work at either 16MHz or 25MHz, except > for the speed of the on-board CPU/FPU. The A3000's coprocessor slot lets an > expansion board disable the onboard CPU/FPU and supply an alternate system > clock. So yes, it's possible for a 25MHz add-in to run the entire system at > 25MHz. With such an add-in installed, there is no difference between an A3000 > that came at 25MHz and the upgraded 16MHz system. Would a 50 Mhz 68030/882 Card (or even a 040 Card with a higher speed than 25 Mhz) in the coprocessor slot also run or would it need more bus bandwith than available on the A3000 bus ? Gruesse -Heiko -- Heiko W.Rupp, Gerwigstr.5, D-7500 Karlsruhe 1 | hwr@pilhuhn.ka.sub.org Tel: +49 7021 693642 (voice only) | uk85@dkauni2.bitnet Are you blind? Catch a floating Eye!
daveh@cbmvax.commodore.com (Dave Haynie) (06/05/91)
In article <193f5e0a.ARN1469@pilhuhn.ka.sub.org> hwr@pilhuhn.ka.sub.org (Heiko W.Rupp) writes: >In article <22123@cbmvax.commodore.com>, Dave Haynie writes: >> So yes, it's possible for a 25MHz add-in to run the entire system at >> 25MHz. With such an add-in installed, there is no difference between an A3000 >> that came at 25MHz and the upgraded 16MHz system. >Would a 50 Mhz 68030/882 Card (or even a 040 Card with a higher speed than >25 Mhz) in the coprocessor slot also run or would it need more bus bandwith than >available on the A3000 bus ? Just like with the A2000, an A3000 coprocessor device can run with any clock. However, you can only slave the A3000 itself to either 16MHz or 25MHz. So if you plug in a 50MHz 68030 board, you don't run the A3000 at 50MHz. The 3000's memory is less than optimal to a 50MHz processor. Most likely, any such fast '030 board would have lots of external cache. -- Dave Haynie Commodore-Amiga (Amiga 3000) "The Crew That Never Rests" {uunet|pyramid|rutgers}!cbmvax!daveh PLINK: hazy BIX: hazy "This is my mistake. Let me make it good." -R.E.M.
kevin@modcomp.uucp (Kevin Smith) (06/06/91)
daveh@cbmvax.commodore.com (Dave Haynie) writes: >In article <193f5e0a.ARN1469@pilhuhn.ka.sub.org> hwr@pilhuhn.ka.sub.org (Heiko W.Rupp) writes: >>In article <22123@cbmvax.commodore.com>, Dave Haynie writes: >>> So yes, it's possible for a 25MHz add-in to run the entire system at >>> 25MHz. With such an add-in installed, there is no difference between an A3000 >>> that came at 25MHz and the upgraded 16MHz system. >>Would a 50 Mhz 68030/882 Card (or even a 040 Card with a higher speed than >>25 Mhz) in the coprocessor slot also run or would it need more bus bandwith than >>available on the A3000 bus ? >Just like with the A2000, an A3000 coprocessor device can run with any clock. >However, you can only slave the A3000 itself to either 16MHz or 25MHz. So if >you plug in a 50MHz 68030 board, you don't run the A3000 at 50MHz. The 3000's >memory is less than optimal to a 50MHz processor. Most likely, any such fast >'030 board would have lots of external cache. So let me get this straight, if I was to find a really good deal on a 3000 16MHz system and I want to run at 25MHz all I need to do is find an add on card running at 25 Mhz, plug it in, it disables the motherboard CPU and my system runs exactly like a 25MHz 3000 with no possible performance degradations because I'm still using the 16MHz motherboard with the 25MHz CPU in the coprocessor slot. Kevin Smith modcomp!glsdev!kevin card