cpmwc@marlin.jcu.edu.au (Matthew W Crowd) (06/09/91)
In article <1991Jun8.202434.22621@newserve.cc.binghamton.edu> consp03@bingsuns.cc.binghamton.edu (Kriston J. Rehberg) writes: >In article <1991Jun8.085839.3556@news.iastate.edu>, >taab5@isuvax.iastate.edu (Marc Barrett) writes: >|> Unfortunately, you will have to wait a while (probably a very LONG while) >|>for that. This is NOT supported in AmigaDOS 2.0, and will not be supported >|>on the Amiga for several years. >|> >|> Right now, you don't have any choices at all as to what kind of display >|>you use for your Workbench. You either put up with the idiosyncracies of >|>the Amiga's inadequate chipset, or get another system. It's as simple as >|>that. >|> > >Marc, have you used 2.0? There is a "Monitors" drawer and an >"Addmonitors" program to do just that. In addition, even the A2410 and So the 2410 has a device driver eh? >the moniterm monitors have device drivers for 2.0, and for 1.3. Have >you used Productivity? > >Are you always this speculative, or do you research before you reply?? > >click!...[author kill] > >|> / Marc Barrett -MB- | BITNET: XGR39@ISUVAX.BITNET / Have YOU used productivity?? This has to be the biggest lemon that C= ever wasted their money on developing. >+-----------------------------------------------------------------------------+ >|Kriston J. Rehberg, Student Consultant, SUNY Binghamton Computer Services | -- ======================================================================= Matt Crowd cpmwc@marlin.jcu.edu.au | Thinking of a | Master Plan..... Resident Computer Science FTP Mutant | Eric.B
rkushner@sycom.UUCP (Ronald Kushner) (06/09/91)
cpmwc@marlin.jcu.edu.au (Matthew W Crowd) writes: > >Have YOU used productivity?? This has to be the biggest lemon that C= >ever wasted their money on developing. > Didn't you read what some of the Commodore engineers have posted to the net? They added the productivity modes to the Denise chip so they can take an off the shelf part(ECS Denise) and use it in their CAD systems. Sounds like they got some people on the ball over there. Why build an new engine from scratch when you can modify an existing one and use it in a larger car? Understand what I am saying? Being flexable is how smaller, more agressive companies survive in America, no matter how many times people write their death sentances. -- C-UseNet V0.42d Ronald Kushner Life in Hell BBS +1 (313) 939-6666 P.O. Box 353 14400 USR HST V.42 & V.42bis Sterling Heights, MI 48311-0353 Complete Amiga Support UUCP: uunet!umich!vela!sycom!rkushner (We are not satanic, just NUTS!) DISCLAIMER: I say what I mean, and mean what I say.
consp03@bingsuns.cc.binghamton.edu (Kriston J. Rehberg) (06/10/91)
In article <1991Jun8.234020.29594@marlin.jcu.edu.au>, cpmwc@marlin.jcu.edu.au (Matthew W Crowd) writes: |>So the 2410 has a device driver eh? I didn't say it did, but it can be done using Addmonitor. |>Have YOU used productivity?? This has to be the biggest lemon that C= |>ever wasted their money on developing. Productivity is great. It's real VGA, and, yes, I use it on a day-to-day basis on an Amiga 3000. The screen is much more solid than a flicker-fixed display, and, in my opinion, is a good alternative mode for people who want 640*480 but don't want to waste money on those quirky flicker fixers. |>Matt Crowd cpmwc@marlin.jcu.edu.au | Thinking of a Good day! Kris +-----------------------------------------------------------------------------+ |Kriston J. Rehberg, Student Consultant, SUNY Binghamton Computer Services | |consp03@BINGSUNS.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU +---------------------------+ |CONSP03@BINGVAXA.BITNET |Opinions expressed here are| | |my own and do not represent| | Summertime, summertime. Fun, fun, summertime...|those of this organization | +-----> Only Amiga makes it possible! <-----------+--------------------- ;-b -+
cpmwc@marlin.jcu.edu.au (Matthew W Crowd) (06/10/91)
In article <1991Jun9.181849.27338@newserve.cc.binghamton.edu> consp03@bingsuns.cc.binghamton.edu (Kriston J. Rehberg) writes: >In article <1991Jun8.234020.29594@marlin.jcu.edu.au>, >cpmwc@marlin.jcu.edu.au (Matthew W Crowd) writes: > >|>So the 2410 has a device driver eh? > >I didn't say it did, but it can be done using Addmonitor. > >|>Have YOU used productivity?? This has to be the biggest lemon that C= >|>ever wasted their money on developing. > >Productivity is great. It's real VGA, and, yes, I use it on a >day-to-day basis on an Amiga 3000. The screen is much more solid than a >flicker-fixed display, and, in my opinion, is a good alternative mode >for people who want 640*480 but don't want to waste money on those >quirky flicker fixers. I'm sorry, but "real VGA" has more than a pitiful 4 colours. It may look o.k but once you run an application that doesn't support it your monitor goes into Spastic Mode and has to drop it's frequency. A lot of people were disappointed with this display mode, hoping they could get away with not having to buy a display enhancer board. > >|>Matt Crowd cpmwc@marlin.jcu.edu.au | Thinking of a > >Good day! > >Kris > >+-----------------------------------------------------------------------------+ >|Kriston J. Rehberg, Student Consultant, SUNY Binghamton Computer Services | >|consp03@BINGSUNS.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU +---------------------------+ >|CONSP03@BINGVAXA.BITNET |Opinions expressed here are| >| |my own and do not represent| >| Summertime, summertime. Fun, fun, summertime...|those of this organization | >+-----> Only Amiga makes it possible! <-----------+--------------------- ;-b -+ -- ======================================================================= Matt Crowd cpmwc@marlin.jcu.edu.au | Thinking of a | Master Plan..... Resident Computer Science FTP Mutant | Eric.B
wright@etsuv2.etsu.edu (BRIAN WRIGHT) (06/10/91)
In article <1991Jun8.234020.29594@marlin.jcu.edu.au>, cpmwc@marlin.jcu.edu.au (Matthew W Crowd) writes... >Have YOU used productivity?? This has to be the biggest lemon that C= >ever wasted their money on developing. Yes, I have used productivity and I don't feel that it's a waste of development time at all. It's a rather useless feature on a 3000 (because of the Amber), but it most definitely not a waste on the A500 or A2000. Having a rock steady nonflicker 640x480 screen is what everyone has been wanting. Here you are saying it's a wasted effort. You would have to pay around $200+ to get a Commodore's deinterlacing board. That is significantly less than purchasing a Denise and getting productivity. Even if you had to purchase the Denise and Agnus together it would still be less than Commodore's deinterlacer board. Granted you don't get ALL modes deinterlaced with productivity, but it is a useful resolution. I will agree that the limit of 4 colors is a constraint, but then most M*Cs are B/W with 2 colors (SE's and Pluses) and the NeXT has only 4 colors in mono. Only do the color NeXTs utilize the colors available, but then do the software packages? Just look at the price you spend to get color on either of those platforms for color. No, I don't think it's wasted money or time. It has it's place, but isn't utilized yet. Yes, you can definitely tell a difference between the noninterlaced 640x480 screen and the deinterlaced 640x400 screen. As for the higher resolutions (1280x400) and such, well I'd definitely use it for my workbench *IF* my 1950 supported 1280x800 or so, but it doesn't. >-- >======================================================================= >Matt Crowd cpmwc@marlin.jcu.edu.au | Thinking of a > | Master Plan..... >Resident Computer Science FTP Mutant | Eric.B -------------------------------------------------------------- Brian Wright wright%etsuvax2@ricevm1.rice.edu or wright@etsuvax2.bitnet -------------------------------------------------------------- Standard Disclaimer... not my words and all that jazz.
cpca@marlin.jcu.edu.au (Colin Adams) (06/10/91)
In article <rkushner.6543@sycom.UUCP> rkushner@sycom.UUCP (Ronald Kushner) writes: >cpmwc@marlin.jcu.edu.au (Matthew W Crowd) writes: >> >>Have YOU used productivity?? This has to be the biggest lemon that C= >>ever wasted their money on developing. >> > >Didn't you read what some of the Commodore engineers have posted to the net? >They added the productivity modes to the Denise chip so they can take an off >the shelf part(ECS Denise) and use it in their CAD systems. > >Sounds like they got some people on the ball over there. Why build an new >engine from scratch when you can modify an existing one and use it in a larger >car? Understand what I am saying? Being flexable is how smaller, more >agressive companies survive in America, no matter how many times people write >their death sentances. Productivity is a joke. If you have a 500/2000 then it's just WAY TOO SLOW to bother using it (if you can find software that works properly to let you open a window full size!). If you have something higher than a 68000 based machine then you'll just use the 2320 and get bigger speed, more colours, and better system performance. Why did C= waste time developing Productivity when they could have bought flixer-fixers instead, and started on a real chip set ? -- Colin Adams Computer Science Department James Cook University Internet : cpca@marlin.jcu.edu.au North Queensland 'And on the eighth day, God created Manchester'
cpdrj@marlin.jcu.edu.au (David R Jeffery) (06/10/91)
In article <rkushner.6543@sycom.UUCP> rkushner@sycom.UUCP (Ronald Kushner) writes: >cpmwc@marlin.jcu.edu.au (Matthew W Crowd) writes: >> >>Have YOU used productivity?? This has to be the biggest lemon that C= >>ever wasted their money on developing. >> > >Didn't you read what some of the Commodore engineers have posted to the net? >They added the productivity modes to the Denise chip so they can take an off >the shelf part(ECS Denise) and use it in their CAD systems. > CAD??? Who are you kidding. If you know anything about CAD then you wouldn't say that productivity mode is an option. How are you supposed to a track of different enitities in 4 colours??? Maybe alright for drawing a couple of boxes, but that is about the limit. >Sounds like they got some people on the ball over there. Why build an new >engine from scratch when you can modify an existing one and use it in a larger >car? Why build a new engine from scratch??? One good reason is that the "engine" you are talking of is 5 years behind the rest of the world. As many people will agree, the engineers need to spend their time making a faster set of graphics chips, rather than sacrificing colours to get a non-interlace screen, which I may add is too slow to be of any use. >Understand what I am saying? Being flexable is how smaller, more >agressive companies survive in America, no matter how many times people write >their death sentances. > Does this have any relationship to Commodore??? Agressive??? The two words can not be used in the same sentence (IMHO). >-- C-UseNet V0.42d > Ronald Kushner Life in Hell BBS +1 (313) 939-6666 > P.O. Box 353 14400 USR HST V.42 & V.42bis > Sterling Heights, MI 48311-0353 Complete Amiga Support > UUCP: uunet!umich!vela!sycom!rkushner (We are not satanic, just NUTS!) > DISCLAIMER: I say what I mean, and mean what I say.
rkushner@sycom.UUCP (Ronald Kushner) (06/11/91)
cpdrj@marlin.jcu.edu.au (David R Jeffery) writes: >Why build a new engine from scratch??? One good reason is that the >"engine" you are talking of is 5 years behind the rest of the world. As >many people will agree, the engineers need to spend their time making a >faster set of graphics chips, rather than sacrificing colours to get a >non-interlace screen, which I may add is too slow to be of any use. 5 years behind? Hum, guess the Amiga was obsolete when they hit 100,000 units huh? I would like to see improved blitter operations, and a 32 bit chip set, everything in CMOS, etc, but when you look at Niptendio selling an 8 bit game system like wildfire, some people just are not interested in anything more, as long as the software is of good quality. As long as the price is right, and the software is avaiable, no one is going to say "VGA's 256 colors is better than the Amigas 4096 colors" because people are just not that techinal! They will see 4096 colors on the specs sheet and compair that to 256 colors on VGA. Atari just came out with 4096 colors and stereo sound with the STe, now who is 5 years behind who? (I feel like this should be in advocacy, check the followup-to line) When you are making a bread and butter machine, you are not going to build in alot of standard "way-cool" state of the art cutting edge stuff for $499 retail! Get real! And no one will use the Way-Cool features unless they are standard! Mac is still selling a warmed over 7 year old B&W computer as their new bread and butter unit! I do think the higher end 3000's should have another graphics option, but then again the high end 3000's are the unix machine now, and will have a 8 bit graphics board shortly. And if they didn't use off the shelf parts in the A3000, you wouldn't have seen the power up program, because they would not have been able to afford it. You have to sell in volume to make anything worthwile, and if the added costs of a revised "across the line" chip set will hurt sales by raising prices, does it make sence to do that in a recession? If they did have something done, it wouldn't make sence to release it now. Wait for some signs that the economy is picking up first. Any wrong move could be your death. Anything thats standard on one machine and not the others will not be used(IE: publishers are still making 512K games that ignore extra memory). Something like this has to be exciting enought to make the lemmings want to upgrade to it! How many Commodore 128's were used to their full potential by the software avaiable? Why has 2.0 been pushed back again and again? So its attractive and compatible enough for people to want to upgrade! And I don't see everyone dishing out the $$$ to get 2.0 manuals and ROMS, unless they have to. Its a catch 22. >>Understand what I am saying? Being flexable is how smaller, more >>agressive companies survive in America, no matter how many times people write >>their death sentances. >> > >Does this have any relationship to Commodore??? Agressive??? The two >words can not be used in the same sentence (IMHO). You do not see any agressiveness from Commodore? What the hell was power up then? A same old same old program? If you watched them over the last year, they have apperantly implemented a cost cutting program, before the recession hit. Thats a sign of being flexable. They sure sell alot of Amigas, for being a stagnant old fuddy duddy expensive game machine company. I would really say that the pricing on the A500c is agressive, seeing how a whole system setup with monitor is still cheaper than the cheapest B&W Mac. If Mac was selling an $700 Classic, I would call that agressive as well. Commodore wouldn't be around today if they didn't buyout Amiga. -- C-UseNet V0.42d Ronald Kushner Life in Hell BBS +1 (313) 939-6666 P.O. Box 353 14400 USR HST V.42 & V.42bis Sterling Heights, MI 48311-0353 Complete Amiga Support UUCP: uunet!umich!vela!sycom!rkushner (We are not satanic, just NUTS!) DISCLAIMER: I say what I mean, and mean what I say.
consp03@bingsuns.cc.binghamton.edu (Kriston J. Rehberg) (06/11/91)
In article <1991Jun9.233533.14546@marlin.jcu.edu.au>, cpmwc@marlin.jcu.edu.au (Matthew W Crowd) writes: |>I'm sorry, but "real VGA" has more than a pitiful 4 colours. It may |>look o.k but once you run an application that doesn't support it |>your monitor goes into Spastic Mode and has to drop it's frequency. What about grayscale VGA monitors? Or VGA laptop computers that have monichrome monitors? Hmm.. Since I have a NEC 3d my monitor doesn't go spastic. It quietly switches modes and auto-sizes itself perfectly when you switch modes, but, yes, the applications that don't support it can be a pain. Note that I do most of my work in the shell and on the workbench screens and I rarely deal with custom screens. Most of the ones that require custom screens are graphics (not DTP) programs that, to me, look better in interlace mode. After all, television is interlaced and it doesn't bother us until we see the computer generated text and line graphics. |>A lot of people were disappointed with this display mode, hoping |>they could get away with not having to buy a display enhancer board. At this time it only helps out those who use the Shell and applications that share the WB screen (which seemed to be Commodore's aim when they designed Intuition - like a Windows 3.0 type setup with fewer colors). In the future, when the ECS and more installed 3000s make KS 2.x more of a standard than a luxury, developers may wake up to the Commodore design philosophy and support any mode we wish to use. For me (and many others, from what I have seen and heard), the VGA modes are a cost-effective alternative to get a professional display. Note that there are even lower VGA resolutions on the Amiga that provide more colors (such as 320*480 in 32 colors, etc) but that's besides the point. If it really bothers me I'll go the U'Lowell graphics card route. Super VGA 800*600 with 256 colors is fine for me. Kris +-----------------------------------------------------------------------------+ |Kriston J. Rehberg, Student Consultant, SUNY Binghamton Computer Services | |consp03@BINGSUNS.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU +---------------------------+ |CONSP03@BINGVAXA.BITNET |Opinions expressed here are| | |my own and do not represent| | Summertime, summertime. Fun, fun, summertime...|those of this organization | +-----> Only Amiga makes it possible! <-----------+--------------------- ;-b -+
daveh@cbmvax.commodore.com (Dave Haynie) (06/11/91)
In article <1991Jun10.093910.23573@marlin.jcu.edu.au> cpdrj@marlin.jcu.edu.au (David R Jeffery) writes: >In article <rkushner.6543@sycom.UUCP> rkushner@sycom.UUCP (Ronald Kushner) writes: >>cpmwc@marlin.jcu.edu.au (Matthew W Crowd) writes: >>Didn't you read what some of the Commodore engineers have posted to the net? >>They added the productivity modes to the Denise chip so they can take an off >>the shelf part(ECS Denise) and use it in their CAD systems. Actually, they probably said that ECS Denise wasn't just an upgrade, it was an update. The folks out in Los Gatos didn't have any of the custom chips up in a modern CAD database, they were all hand drawn. So, basically, there was a lot more effort in ECS than you can imagine. >CAD??? Who are you kidding. If you know anything about CAD then you >wouldn't say that productivity mode is an option. How are you supposed >to a track of different enitities in 4 colours??? Maybe alright for >drawing a couple of boxes, but that is about the limit. That obviously depends on what kind of CAD you're doing. PCB and mechanical people want more colors. For schematic capture, the overwhelming choice around here has been monochrome for many years, simply because it has been faster, and color really doesn't matter. I personally use the A2024 and Moniterms (at home and work, respectively) for CAD related to gate array design. -- Dave Haynie Commodore-Amiga (Amiga 3000) "The Crew That Never Rests" {uunet|pyramid|rutgers}!cbmvax!daveh PLINK: hazy BIX: hazy "This is my mistake. Let me make it good." -R.E.M.
rjc@geech.gnu.ai.mit.edu (Ray Cromwell) (06/11/91)
In article <1991Jun10.034749.17738@marlin.jcu.edu.au> cpca@marlin.jcu.edu.au (Colin Adams) writes: >Why did C= waste time developing Productivity when they could have >bought flixer-fixers instead, and started on a real chip set ? My guess is, they didn't waste time. Here's what I think happened. C= engineer#1: "We just added all these really cool features to the Denise like programmable scan rates and genlocking any color register." C= engineer#2: "Hmm, using the Denise's new programmability we can easy add modes for 640x480 deinterlaced, 1280x200 non interlace, 640x960 interlaced and some other stuff." C= engineer#1: "Good idea, a non-interlaced display done by software. WHat a nice enhancement for A500/2000 users with no added cost to C= " Ok, so it didn't happen like that, but judging from the other modes (1280x200, 640x960, 1280x400 interlaced) C= added a new pixel rate, and someone figured out using this new pixel rate you can create a multitude of new screen modes done totally in software. My point is, if you can squeeze out some extra functionality, why not? It's free. BTW, productivety mode is equivelent to a 16 color hi-res screen. A productivety screen in mono mode would give you the speed of a 4color workbench. The new denise is still a nice improvement with it's genlocking and chromakey to any color register. Congrads to the chip design people. (Bob <I forget his last name> at LSI design department?) > > > > > >-- >Colin Adams >Computer Science Department James Cook University >Internet : cpca@marlin.jcu.edu.au North Queensland >'And on the eighth day, God created Manchester' -- / INET:rjc@gnu.ai.mit.edu * // The opinions expressed here do not \ | INET:r_cromwe@upr2.clu.net | \X/ in any way reflect the views of my self.| \ UUCP:uunet!tnc!m0023 * /
cpca@marlin.jcu.edu.au (Colin Adams) (06/11/91)
In article <1991Jun11.012317.20038@mintaka.lcs.mit.edu> rjc@geech.gnu.ai.mit.edu (Ray Cromwell) writes: >In article <1991Jun10.034749.17738@marlin.jcu.edu.au> cpca@marlin.jcu.edu.au (Colin Adams) writes: > BTW, productivety mode is equivelent to a 16 color hi-res screen. >A productivety screen in mono mode would give you the speed of a 4color >workbench. Yes, the speed is fine in 2 colours, unfortunately the Workbench is not designed for 2 colour operation, so it looks pretty ugly :-( Most programs have problems with disappearing text in 2 colours too ( when they try using pen 2/3), though hopefully this should improve. Four colours is nice looking but slow... >/ INET:rjc@gnu.ai.mit.edu * // The opinions expressed here do not \ >| INET:r_cromwe@upr2.clu.net | \X/ in any way reflect the views of my self.| >\ UUCP:uunet!tnc!m0023 * / -- Colin Adams Computer Science Department James Cook University Internet : cpca@marlin.jcu.edu.au North Queensland 'And on the eighth day, God created Manchester'