mofo@bucsf.bu.edu (jason greene) (08/20/90)
I've been doing a lot of looking and listening to the new Sony DAT which is selling for $800 (at high-end stores, higher price at "superstores") and have been somewhat impressed by the quality of sound and construction. I have two questions however, regarding both this Sony model and DAT in general: 1) DAT moves the tape along at ~4 mm/s. The head rotates at ~2000 rpm. The combination of these two lend me to believe that the head will wear down fairly quickly. This might apply to wear of the tape as well. In the manual for their new DAT, Sony recommends using a DAT cleaning cassette (which I haven't seen in this country yet) once a month. The rest of the DAT technology seems wonderful and complete with strong construction. Will the head wear down quickly? If so, would you need to replace the whole DAT unit to fix it, or could the head be replaced (and at what cost) ???? 2) This new Sony DAT sits comfortably within my spending budget, being sold at most high-end stores for $799.95. Does this lower-priced DAT suggest that even lower priced DAT's will be soon in coming (DAT's for ~600) ???? Any opinions or suggestions, PLEASE!
dg@mtqua.att.com (Duane Galensky) (08/22/90)
lower priced DATs are already available overseas. i know of units made by aiwa that sell for about $600 US in japan...this particular unit is a super-compact walkman sized affair for on-location use. i have the sony DAT and a cleaning cassette is mandatory. they are available in the US (try Uncle Steves on canal st. in NYC). as for the rotation's effect on head wear, i suppose time will tell, however, i have a VCR that's lasted for many years with no noticeable degradation in playback quality. the tapes are very high quality...made to exacting tolerances...and i feel comfortable that on a system basis the setup will perform reliably for many years. i am sensitive to re-recording tape however...i believe that stressing the little domains too many times can lead to bit errors that eventually cause noticeable degradation. tape dropout will be a notorious nemesis to the DAT-ter. playback's contribution to tape wear would seem to be significantly less. duane
rubin@cis.ohio-state.edu (Daniel Rubin) (08/24/90)
>i am sensitive to re-recording tape however...i believe >that stressing the little domains too many times can lead to bit errors >that eventually cause noticeable degradation. tape dropout will >be a notorious nemesis to the DAT-ter. playback's contribution >to tape wear would seem to be significantly less. > >duane I have an Exabyte 4mm tape drive that I use to make weekly backups. The 4mm tape is really made for Digital Audio and the information is recorded on the tape the same way that digital audio is recorded on the tape. I have used a single tape for over a year now and just had to retrieve a file last week and it was 100% error free. After 50+ re-recordings the information is still 100% error free and it doesn't even have to be 100% error free for digital audio. I really don't think that there will be a problem recording over the same tape many times. - Dan Rubin
erich@inmet.inmet.com (08/27/90)
Assuming the recording industry is not able to block foreign manufacturers... If the Japanese are allowed to flood the US market with DAT decks as they did with so many other components, then industry experts expect the decks to plummet in price, much the same as did VCRs. Take note, VCRs started several years ago at approximately $1000 and now can be had for under $200. --------------------------------------------------------------------- Internet: erich@inmet.inmet.com UUCP: uunet!inmet!erich
bill@uunet.UU.NET (Bill Vermillion) (08/28/90)
In article <5961@uwm.edu> erich@inmet.inmet.com writes: > >Assuming the recording industry is not able to block foreign manufacturers... > >If the Japanese are allowed to flood the US market with DAT decks as they >did with so many other components, then industry experts expect the decks to >plummet in price, much the same as did VCRs. Take note, VCRs started several >years ago at approximately $1000 and now can be had for under $200. VCRs actualy started out at about $1500. Virtually every home in America has a TV and can relate to a unit that will play or record pictures. The amount of homes who have anything more than a radio or cheap cassette machine for ploying tapes is a much smaller figure. Given that the VCR prices didn't really start falling until shipments in excess of 1,000,000 per month became common about 3 years ago, and given that the average person can't seem to tell the difference between a 6 hour VHS tape and a 2 hour tape, it would indicate that the average person would not need an audio system of DAT quality. I don't suspect you will see DAT's ever selling more than 10,000 units per month anytime in the next 5 years, if ever. Since well over 90% of homes in America have TV, over 50% have cable, there is a large market for VCRs. But how many have an audio system other than a radio, or a cheap cassette system. Virtually the same number of people I know who have high quality video systems, eg S-VHS or ED-Beta have high-quality audio. The rest seem to have audio on a par with 6 hour vhs. -- Bill Vermillion - UUCP: uunet!tarpit!bilver!bill : bill@bilver.UUCP
mingo@well.sf.ca.us (Charles Hawkins Mingo) (08/30/90)
In article <5813@uwm.edu> mofo@bucsf.bu.edu (jason greene) writes: > >I have two questions however, regarding both this Sony model [presumably the >DTC700] and DAT in general: > >1) DAT moves the tape along at ~4 mm/s. The head rotates at ~2000 rpm. > The combination of these two lend me to believe that the head will > wear down fairly quickly. This might apply to wear of the tape as > well. DAT uses a helical scan technology quite similar to VCR taping. Based on my VCR experience, the tapes should last for hundreds of playings unless they are abused (eg, extended pause). > In the manual for their new DAT, Sony recommends using a > DAT cleaning cassette (which I haven't seen in this country yet) > once a month. The manual for the Sony DTC700 recommends cleanings "periodically" and warns against cleaning "more than five times in a short period." I found the Maxell R-CL DAT Cleaning Cassette widely available in the Washington, DC area, for $13.99. > The rest of the DAT technology seems wonderful and complete with > strong construction. > Will the head wear down quickly? I think the head is pretty safe (ever hear of a VCR head wearing out?). It's the tape I would be more concerned about. > If so, would you need to replace > the whole DAT unit to fix it, or could the head be replaced (and at > what cost) ???? The head should be separately replacable, but don't count on getting quick or cheap service. At Circuit City (near Washington), I was told that any significant repairs would likely cost at least $300 (which I found credible). However, I was able to purchase a five- year extended warranty for $78, on top of the $779 for the DTC700. >2) This new Sony DAT sits comfortably within my spending budget, being > sold at most high-end stores for $799.95. Does this lower-priced > DAT suggest that even lower priced DAT's will be soon in coming > (DAT's for ~600) ???? Yes. I recall seeing an advertisement in late-July NY Times for a JVC DAT for about $650. Last Sunday's NYT has an ad for a car DAT-player for $449. My personal DAT experience (after one week), is that the DTC700 not only makes virtually perfect digital recordings, but also is a pretty damn good analogue tape deck, when recorded at 48kHz. But for the fact that I have hundreds of conventional audiotapes, I would get rid of my old tapedeck. [Onkyo TA-2070 tapedeck, NAD 7175PE receiver, Celestron SL-6 speakers.] -- Charlie Mingo Internet: mingo@well.sf.ca.us 2209 Washington Circle #2 CI$: 71340,2152 Washington, DC 20037 AT&T: 202/785-2089
sho@maxwell.physics.purdue.edu (Sho Kuwamoto) (08/31/90)
In article <5988@uwm.edu> bilver!bill@uunet.UU.NET (Bill Vermillion) writes: >VCRs [started at $1500] >Given that the VCR prices didn't really start falling until shipments in >excess of 1,000,000 per month became common about 3 years ago, and given >that the average person can't seem to tell the difference between a 6 hour >VHS tape and a 2 hour tape, it would indicate that the average person would >not need an audio system of DAT quality. I don't suspect you will see >DAT's ever selling more than 10,000 units per month anytime in the next 5 >years, if ever. > [and that's why prices won't drop like a rock] This argument seems to ignore completely the fascination the American public has with the word "digital." In fact, this argument could easily have been applied to CD players. At the time, we could have said, "how many people need digital optical storage when a simple phonograph record will do?" Now that the nation is so CD conscious, I think that DAT will sell even if the quality were not noticeably better than "normal" tape decks of comparable price. You drew an analogy between DAT and S-VHS. I think a more appropriate analogy would have been between Dolby-S and S-VHS. DAT prices will definitely fall below $300 in a couple of years. I was just in Japan this summer, where the Sony model they are pushing here for $999 could be bought for less than $600. -Sho -- sho@physics.purdue.edu
bill@uunet.UU.NET (Bill Vermillion) (09/04/90)
In article <6042@uwm.edu> sho@maxwell.physics.purdue.edu (Sho Kuwamoto) writes: > >In article <5988@uwm.edu> bilver!bill@uunet.UU.NET (Bill Vermillion) writes: >>VCRs [started at $1500] > >>Given that the VCR prices didn't really start falling until shipments in >>excess of 1,000,000 per month became common about 3 years ago, and given >>that the average person can't seem to tell the difference between a 6 hour >>VHS tape and a 2 hour tape, it would indicate that the average person would >>not need an audio system of DAT quality. I don't suspect you will see >>DAT's ever selling more than 10,000 units per month anytime in the next 5 >>years, if ever. > >> [and that's why prices won't drop like a rock] > >This argument seems to ignore completely the fascination the American >public has with the word "digital." In fact, this argument could >easily have been applied to CD players. At the time, we could have >said, "how many people need digital optical storage when a simple >phonograph record will do?" > >Now that the nation is so CD conscious, I think that DAT will sell >even if the quality were not noticeably better than "normal" tape >decks of comparable price. I base my feeling on what I have seen in the audio business over the past umpteem-jillion years. I remember when the LP was introduced and I remeber the speed wars between the 45's and LPs. I also remember when the first stereo devices were available, and the machines to play them on. Reel to reel 7.5 ips, two track with staggered heads. Then they finally got inline heads. Then they got 4-track heads so they were finally able to bring the tapes close to LP prices. The first stereo tapes were typically a selection of the "best" tracks from a given LP because the maximum time was 30 minutes, while most LP's were 45 minutes. Some of the first stereo recordings for the "hi-fi" group were made just about the time the LP's were introduced. The stereo LP followed about 8 years later. I do NOT disagree that the public is CD concious and that they do recognize the leap in quality. I do disagree with your conclusion that there will be a jump to DAT. For the "average" user the CD will probably become the unit of choice. The cassette was a late-comer and did push the LP to the back while CD's killed it - but NOT because it was a recording and playback media, but because it was a convenient, and for the average use, a better medium than disc. It didn't break, it didn't scratch, and worked in cars quite well. History has shown that there is always a pre-dominant media for playback while there have been alternative methods available. The average user doesn't need/use the record capabilities of the cassette. Although many copied their LP's to casette for cars, others copied them to cassette to prevent wear. The CD offers so many advantages, including all the advantages the cassettes offered except recording, that I personally can not see the DAT impacting the market to the extent cassettes did. There will be many DAT sales, but I don't think it will be the amount you suggest. >You drew an analogy between DAT and S-VHS. I think a more appropriate >analogy would have been between Dolby-S and S-VHS. DAT prices will >definitely fall below $300 in a couple of years. I was just in Japan >this summer, where the Sony model they are pushing here for $999 could >be bought for less than $600. I don't recall any analogy I made between DAT and S-VHS, and I can't see where one would be appropriate. DAT prices will of course fall, but with complete "boom-boxes" selling for under $200 with CD/Cassette/AM-FM/Amp/Speaker there is no incentive for the average person to go to a DAT. Don't let your background/tastes/experiences distort your perception of the average user. After all you are reading rec.audio.high-end and the average user doesn't care what we discuss here. I base my observations from working originally in the broadcast medium and later the recording industry and knowing what the average use listened to. And you notice I stressed average many times in the above. You will also find that there are TVs, and hence the base requisite for a VCR in most of the homes in America, and you will not find audio penetration to that extent. I stand by my contention that DAT will not be common media, and that it will not be as cheap as you predict. Time will tell. If I remember, I will re-post this article, and make appropriate comments 5 to 10 years fron now :-) ;-) bill -- Bill Vermillion - UUCP: uunet!tarpit!bilver!bill : bill@bilver.UUCP
peb@uunet.UU.NET (Paul Baclaski) (09/13/90)
>not need an audio system of DAT quality. I don't suspect you will see >DAT's ever selling more than 10,000 units per month anytime in the next 5 >years, if ever. I would suspect that the volume of DAT or writable CDs would be at least comparable to current levels of cassette tape systems being sold. The fact that people are willing to pay higher prices for CDs than for vinyl is sufficient proof that audio quality matters to large numbers of people. Perhaps people who record video using 1/3 speed VHS do it because they sit far away from their television/monitor and are recording disposable stuff that is never viewed again...I sometimes use the slow speeds to record things in this manner because I might be low on tape, but if the material is very important, I only use full speed VHS. Does anyone have the figures for current monthly shipments of cassette decks? This must be larger than 10000 per month. Paul peb@autodesk.com
dg@mtqua.att.com (Duane Galensky) (09/20/90)
In article <6282@uwm.edu>, autodesk!peb@uunet.UU.NET (Paul Baclaski) writes: > > > >not need an audio system of DAT quality. I don't suspect you will see > >DAT's ever selling more than 10,000 units per month anytime in the next 5 > >years, if ever. > > I would suspect that the volume of DAT or writable CDs would be > at least comparable to current levels of cassette tape systems > being sold. The fact that people are willing to pay higher > prices for CDs than for vinyl is sufficient proof that audio > quality matters to large numbers of people. Perhaps people who > record video using 1/3 speed VHS do it because they sit far away > from their television/monitor and are recording disposable stuff > that is never viewed again...I sometimes use the slow speeds to > record things in this manner because I might be low on tape, but > if the material is very important, I only use full speed VHS. > it's not as simple as all that, i believe. most folks are willing to pay more $$s for CDs not only because of quality (in fact some audiophiles may differ in this regard!) but also for convenience (direct program access, small size) and durability (less prone to damage from abuse, both media and player). most of the systems on which i've heard CDs don't really benefit from the technology: a good quality analog cassette would sound just as pleasing considering the limitations of other components. unfortunately, DATs do not have the convenience and durability advantages over analog cassettes that CDs have over albums (my sony offers direct track access, but it's as one would expect for a tape drive: slow). i don't see a big market demand for the units, except for us nuts who like expensive toys or are into recording live performances. this of course is bad news to those who pay upwards of $15.00 per blank cassette. (by the way, uncle steve's in NYC offers maxell 120 min. DAT blanks for under $9.00!! perhaps i'll become a reseller!) duane