hunter@work.nlm.nih.gov (Larry Hunter) (11/20/90)
I'm ready to spend up to about $3k on a new set of speakers. I think I've found the right balance (er, tradeoff) for my tastes, but I'd like your input before I buy, folks. Background: I have a tremendously varied music collection (thousands of LPs and many hundred CDs) mostly rock, jazz, R&B. Given the recording quality and content of most of my collection, I've come to the conclusion that neutrality, wide frequency range and the ability to produce high SPLs are the most important qualities of a speaker for me. "Quickness" is close second. The ability to perfectly image acoustic recordings or capture the exquisite sweetness of a Stradavarius (sp?) is lower on my list, since orchestral music is probably only about 15% of my collection. The front end: NAD 1300 pre, NAD 2600A amp (150WPC, low impedence loads are ok), Denon TT w/Denon 301 cart, modified Magnavox CDB470 cd player (Jung mods). Room is moderately large, somewhat oddly shaped, with carpet and lots of books against the walls (pretty good acoustics, I think). A quick summary of the last month's worth of listening impressions: Apogees, Maggies & Quads - impressive at what they do, but not enough low end, and don't get loud enough. The Quads with a Velodyne 18" sub were just spectacular, but that's $6k+ and even then the mid-bass transition area was annoying (although that was probably a setup problem). Theils, Vandersteens - somewhat better low end and somewhat better dynamics than the planars, but still lacking in both areas. B&W 801/II's - unbelievably good images, even in the relatively low bass. I had never heard the massive drums at the beginning of the most recent Kitaro CD come from somewhere before. The 801's placed them significantly to the left of the leftmost speaker. The illusion was so real, I was compelled to walk over to the perceived location several times. Wow. Lovely system, but even on sale, they're $4.8k. Damn. Duntech Black Nights. Not quite as spectacular at imaging as the B&W's, but even deeper and more dynamic! Regularly $5k, I can get them for about $4k. I actually prefer them to the 801's, but I can't afford $4k at the moment, either. Based on my impressions so far, I think I would like the VMPS Super Tower R's. They appear to have the deep bass and the dynamics I've decided are most important to me, and in kit form, including the focal tweeter upgrade, soundcoat cabinet reinforcement resin treatment, and wondercaps in the crossovers, they cost less than $2k including shipping. The various reviews I've seen are all pretty positive (especially given my somewhat-unusual-for-an-audiophile needs). The problem is that I'm worried about buying a pair of speakers I've never heard. Three questions for you: 1. Has anybody built or listened to the VMPS line, especially the Super Tower R? What do you think? 2. Does anybody in the DC/MD/VA area have a pair I could listen to? 3. Assuming I go this way, there are lots of balance adjustments I can make during construction. I would like to do some objective measuments of the system to help me tune it to my room. Does anyone in the DC area have a MLSSA that I could rent for a week? Any suggestions on where to find one? I asked Doug Rife (the designer of the MLSSA, who lives in Virginia) and he wasn't very helpful - he wanted me to buy one at $2500. It's a wonderful gadget for the money, but not for a one time use.... Thanks for any comments! Please email them to the adress below. Larry -- Lawrence Hunter, PhD. National Library of Medicine Bldg. 38A, MS-54 Bethesda. MD 20894 (301) 496-9300 (301) 496-0673 (fax) hunter@nlm.nih.gov (internet) hunter%nlm.nih.gov@nihcu (bitnet/earn)
peter@apple.com (Peter Tapscott ) (11/21/90)
In article <7766@uwm.edu> you write: > >I'm ready to spend up to about $3k on a new set of speakers. I think >I've found the right balance (er, tradeoff) for my tastes, but I'd >like your input before I buy, folks. > >Background: I have a tremendously varied music collection (thousands >of LPs and many hundred CDs) mostly rock, jazz, R&B. Given the >recording quality and content of most of my collection, I've come to >the conclusion that neutrality, wide frequency range and the ability >to produce high SPLs are the most important qualities of a speaker for >me. "Quickness" is close second. The ability to perfectly image >acoustic recordings or capture the exquisite sweetness of a >Stradavarius (sp?) is lower on my list, since orchestral music is >probably only about 15% of my collection. By quickness do you mean detail? I bought my last speakers because they play things the other dynamic speakers didn't. I was very interested in how vocals wer played. Opera, KD Lang, Linda Ronstadt. Details in the bass. Soundstage. >The front end: NAD 1300 pre, NAD 2600A amp (150WPC, low impedence >loads are ok), Denon TT w/Denon 301 cart, modified Magnavox CDB470 cd >player (Jung mods). Room is moderately large, somewhat oddly shaped, >with carpet and lots of books against the walls (pretty good >acoustics, I think). These electronics are OK, but certainly not a match for Quads. >A quick summary of the last month's worth of listening impressions: > >Apogees, Maggies & Quads - impressive at what they do, but not enough >low end, and don't get loud enough. The Quads with a Velodyne 18" sub >were just spectacular, but that's $6k+ and even then the mid-bass >transition area was annoying (although that was probably a setup >problem). I don't know if you can set this up correctly. See note below. >Theils, Vandersteens - somewhat better low end and somewhat better >dynamics than the planars, but still lacking in both areas. I agree. Note that someone recently wrote about how the Vandersteens had lots of dynamics, and he would never need 100W. He must only listen to violin and flute duets in a poorly insulated apartment at night. The Vandersteens use GOBS of power to produce little (pretty nice) sound. Great speaker for $1100. >B&W 801/II's - unbelievably good images, even in the relatively low >bass. I had never heard the massive drums at the beginning of the >most recent Kitaro CD come from somewhere before. The 801's placed >them significantly to the left of the leftmost speaker. The illusion >was so real, I was compelled to walk over to the perceived location >several times. Wow. Lovely system, but even on sale, they're $4.8k. >Damn. Some thing like $3300 used in the San Francisco paper. The savings would pay for your trip out to hear them. Also, B&W 808s are about $5K used. The SF Chronicle is a great source of high-end used equipment. >Based on my impressions so far, I think I would like the VMPS Super >Tower R's. They appear to have the deep bass and the dynamics I've >decided are most important to me, and in kit form, including the focal >tweeter upgrade, soundcoat cabinet reinforcement resin treatment, and >wondercaps in the crossovers, they cost less than $2k including >shipping. The various reviews I've seen are all pretty positive >(especially given my somewhat-unusual-for-an-audiophile needs). The >problem is that I'm worried about buying a pair of speakers I've never >heard. > Larry, I would be very wary of buying someting you haven't heard. Do you have a philosophy of what the speaker of your dreams should do? I do, and and don't mind sharing: 1) Vocals come from one driver. This means that the bass driver is really only a sub-woofer. That means that most 2-way speakers would work, but need an external subwoofer. B&W Martix would work. Quads, Apogees, Magnepans all work, but are difficult to set up right. I agree with you, though, the Quads are the BEST, but cannot produce enough bass. Something like Velodynes could be the answer, though it is hard to match the speed of electrostatic with dynamic speakers. 2) Complex crossovers with impedance compensation for driver irregularities (Zobel networks). B&W, KEF, Wilson WATT, many others. 3) Massive air-movers for bass. Lots of small ones can be better than one big one. 18" drivers may not be the answer. 4 8" or 3 10" or 2 12" may be better. No crossovers in-line with the drivers would be ideal - this means bi-amping. 4) Attention paid to phase relationships. All drivers are vertically aligned in X & Y axes. 801s show this clearly: vertical line passes thru the center of each driver, the voice coil of each driver is in line (look from the side -- the tweeter is behind the mid is behind the woofer... but the voice coils are in alignment) 5) Cabinet construction: obviously no resonances: B&W Matrix is the best example. Rounded edges, sound-absorbing panels by mid, tweeter. The best speakers I have never heard are the Swans. GREAT philosophy, TOP quality drivers in the satellites. 4 12" drivers for the bass (2 per channel). Cost ~2K/kit. About $1K, I guess, if you make your own cabinets. (Or you could have them made at a cabinet shop to your dimensions in the finish you prefer.) Designed for soundstage, smoothness, and DECIBALS. Have read good things about them at high- end shows. You will need a second power amp, since they are bi-amped. I have never been impressed with the VMPS advertisements. They seem to be huge mid-fi speakers, but I don't remember everything about the ads I read. Speaker Builder liked the subwoofers, but they weren't doing such critical listening as 801s and Quads indicate. >-- >Lawrence Hunter, PhD. >National Library of Medicine >Bldg. 38A, MS-54 >Bethesda. MD 20894 >(301) 496-9300 >(301) 496-0673 (fax) >hunter@nlm.nih.gov (internet) >hunter%nlm.nih.gov@nihcu (bitnet/earn) Part of the problem is that there is a hole in the hifi speaker world starting at $1500 to $3K. The B&W 802s are just over $3K, and are supurb. You want sometihng better than Vandersteen 2cis, but that is where the hole in the market starts. Actually, from your goals, at the top, Klipsch corner horns would work very well with your electronics, have lots of dynamics, quickness is assurred by the small motions of the drivers. Your mid-fi freinds will swoon with jealousy. The only problem is with your high-end friends. No high-end cache'. So you have my recommendations: Klipsch & Swan. Either would work supurbly, you have my word on it. You also have my word on this: any hifi purchase is a careful balancing act. No component, especially speakers, has only desirable characteristics. There is no free lunch, there are no Quads that will reproduce 120db bass notes and have the supurb clarity and soundstage they are prised for. BTW, I have B&W Matrix 3s. They meet all my criteria except for having massive air movers. I have been tihnking of building the Swan bass boxes in the same size cabinets as the B&Ws for 20-60hz augmentation. -- |----------------------------------------------------------------------| | Peter Tapscott {ames|apple|leadsv|pyramid|sun}!versatc!peter | | Versatec, 2805 Bowers Avenue, Santa Clara, Calif (408)982-4235 | |----------------------------------------------------------------------|
chan@Sun.COM (11/27/90)
In article <7766@uwm.edu> hunter@work.nlm.nih.gov (Larry Hunter) writes: >Based on my impressions so far, I think I would like the VMPS Super >Tower R's. They appear to have the deep bass and the dynamics I've >decided are most important to me, and in kit form, including the focal >tweeter upgrade, soundcoat cabinet reinforcement resin treatment, and >wondercaps in the crossovers, they cost less than $2k including >shipping. The various reviews I've seen are all pretty positive >(especially given my somewhat-unusual-for-an-audiophile needs). The >problem is that I'm worried about buying a pair of speakers I've never >heard. > >1. Has anybody built or listened to the VMPS line, especially the >Super Tower R? What do you think? Several years ago, I heard an earlier version of the Super Tower II R (the really tall ones with ribbon supertweeters) at the store in San Jose where I got my Magnavox 560 CD player*. I only had a brief listen in an ok-for-a-store room (maybe 20 x 30, carpet on walls), but they struck me as low-end audiophile. Imaging was pretty good for such a large speaker with so many drivers. The electronics used were distinctly mid-fi (AR?), but looking at the specs, it would seem that the STIIRs should be able to punch out very clean SPLs. The bass distortion spec is unusually low. The Focal tweeter in the current version is one of the best tweeters made, and the folks at VMPS are competent, so it should be well integrated. I am leaning towards a minimum baffle area design for speaker I hope to build eventually, since these seem to produce the best imaging, so I don't think you'll get the ultimate in imaging from any of the VMPS speakers. But then you're not looking for that and the ones I heard did a decent job. From your requirements, I think they may be what you're looking for. Sorry I can't give a more detailed review. Hope this helps anyway. Jeff C. *My CDB 560 is now heavily modified and sounds very good. Some of you may remember my postings about this in rec.audio several years ago.... Roughly, the mods were AD712 op amps, servo instead of coupling caps, unregulated external power supply and individual voltage regulators for the left & right analog sections and DAC. Makes a huge difference, though I haven't seriously auditioned the latest CD players. None that use electolytic output coupling caps (ie most Japanese) sound good, I've found... Did anyone else (besides Dave Angelini and a couple other people I know) try the mods I wrote about?