wmartin@STL-06SIMA.ARMY.MIL (Will Martin) (03/05/91)
Well, does anyone out there have anything to say about this business of digital clocks affecting the sound of a high-end system? In case this elicits the same "huh?" response I gave when I began reading the March '91 Stereophile, let me elaborate. As I understand it, somebody began marketing a Radio Shack digital clock (one with big digits, either the 63-766 or 63-808, not sure which but probably the former) at some hefty multiple of the original R-S price, claiming that it had been altered to somehow "smooth the electron flow" and that plugging this thing in would make your system sound better, grow hair on bald heads, stave off falling meteors, and produce world peace... Anyway, Stereophile's "Industry Insider" column has mentions of this in the May and October 1990 issues, and the March '91 issue has a review of the Tice "T.P.T. Clock", a $350 modified Spartus digital alarm clock, and an editorial discussing this phenomenon. Tom Graham here on this list alluded to this subject in a posting "Worried about Stereophile" back on 1 Feb 91, but I haven't seen any other discussion on the subject. People at Stereophile took apart the Radio Shack rebranded/repriced clock and reported that it was not modified physically. But then they stated that an ordinary Radio Shack clock *also* had an effect of improving the sound of the test system! At $25 it was a reasonable tweak, even if totally inexplicable -- it's an OK clock, after all... The Tice clock seems to be "modified" in a non-physical way. Like the maker waves his hands over it and chants incantations, or sprinkles it with holy water, or takes it with him when his friends from the astral plane abduct him in their saucer-shaped craft... (The process seems to be secret.) Tice's comments in the "manufacturer replies" section explicitly state that there is no relation between the cost of the "treatment" and the price charged for the product. Now, on the whole, I would ascribe the perceived changes to the placebo effect, and dismiss the issue as further evidence that audiophilia = insanity. But I would like to get the subject tied down a little more firmly in the details. So I have some questions. Does anyone have answers? 1) These are not placed in the AC line between the mains source and the system-power input, if there is a single one. So what is the method of connection? Are they supposed to be plugged into the *same circuit* as the hifi system? What if the system has its own dedicated circuit? Or is it physical nearness that matters? That is, is the clock supposed to be in the same room as the system? If so, same room as the speakers or the electronics? (Mine are in separate rooms, and many others are also so split.) How is "room" defined here? 2) Has anyone read the Tice "T.P.T." literature and could you summarize its claims? What about claims from other vendors? 3) This sounds more like something from Auntie Enid at TAS than from Stereophile. My TAS subscription is in a state of flux right now and I'm waiting for some back issues to arrive in the mail. Has this stuff been discussed in TAS, and can someone point me to issues and article titles or page numbers? Or has TAS avoided this? 4) Have any of the other esoteric publications embraced this? I haven't been seeing any except TAS, Stereophile, and $ensible Sound for some years now. I thought Hi Fi Heretic was the only other high-end mag in current production. Are there others still coming out? Hmmm... If we can get the people who have the transcendant inner ability to perform this process and impart these magic characteristics to electronics to cooperate, we can have a parallel to the "blessing of the animals" at hi-fi shows, as long lines of audiophiles lug their components and household appliances into the sanctuary, dropping their offerrings into the plate and passing their gear under the curtain into the presence of the modifier, who will perform the ritual and pass the cured component back out to the waiting arms of its owner... :-) Regards, Will wmartin@stl-06sima.army.mil
apas611@hermes.chpc.utexas.edu (David Boles) (03/07/91)
In article <9943@uwm.edu> wmartin@STL-06SIMA.ARMY.MIL (Will Martin) writes: >Well, does anyone out there have anything to say about this business of >digital clocks affecting the sound of a high-end system? In case this YES !!!!! Coming from a physics background and working daily with all manner of PhD's in electrical engineering and physics, I have spent some time punting this one around. The general conclusions go along these lines: 1. The Tice "T.P.T." literature refers to making the electrons act together in a more harmonious (no pun intended) fashion. I believe they even sprinkle the mystical words "quantum mechanics" in there somewhere. This is utter nonsense. At temperatures above a few degrees Kelvin, thermal effects in wires destroy any hint of order to electron flow. (A few degrees K = approx. -265 degrees Celsius) All that is retained is the base oscillatory motion, i.e. AC "current". 2. Arguing from a purely thermodynamic standpoint, plugging in this clock lowers the entropy of the electron flow in all of the wires in your home. Does this affect continue outside your home? Nothing in AC circuit theory would tell us otherwise. Basically, how does a device which consumes a tiny amount of power, radiating a small amount of heat, lower the entropy of its very source of power? 3. Only apparently possible explanation is that the clock generates some electrical noise which is then picked up by the system and perceived as pleasurable by those listening. In this country, people defrauding the public, even a segment of the public desiring to be so mistreated (both audiophiles and fervent religious types), are and should be prosecuted. On another note, why is there all the talk about modifying CD's so that they sound better. Either you get the digital information or not. If you read the same string of 1's and 0's with a raw CD as with a frozen or green-colored CD, then they don't sound different. We've tested reading mechanisms and errors are exceedingly rare. Once the signal is converted to analog you can argue all you want, but a 1 is a 1 no matter what the font hinting is like! (I am not implying that all CD players do not sound alike, they don't thank god) David Boles University of Texas at Austin apas611@hermes.chpc.utexas.edu >The Tice clock seems to be "modified" in a non-physical way. Like the maker >waves his hands over it and chants incantations, or sprinkles it with holy >water, or takes it with him when his friends from the astral plane abduct >him in their saucer-shaped craft... (The process seems to be secret.) >Tice's comments in the "manufacturer replies" section explicitly state >that there is no relation between the cost of the "treatment" and the >price charged for the product. > >Now, on the whole, I would ascribe the perceived changes to the placebo >effect, and dismiss the issue as further evidence that audiophilia = >insanity. But I would like to get the subject tied down a little more >firmly in the details. So I have some questions. Does anyone have answers? > >1) These are not placed in the AC line between the mains source and the >system-power input, if there is a single one. So what is the method of >connection? Are they supposed to be plugged into the *same circuit* as >the hifi system? What if the system has its own dedicated circuit? Or >is it physical nearness that matters? That is, is the clock supposed to >be in the same room as the system? If so, same room as the speakers or >the electronics? (Mine are in separate rooms, and many others are also >so split.) How is "room" defined here? > >2) Has anyone read the Tice "T.P.T." literature and could you summarize >its claims? What about claims from other vendors? > >3) This sounds more like something from Auntie Enid at TAS than from >Stereophile. My TAS subscription is in a state of flux right now and >I'm waiting for some back issues to arrive in the mail. Has this stuff >been discussed in TAS, and can someone point me to issues and article >titles or page numbers? Or has TAS avoided this? > >4) Have any of the other esoteric publications embraced this? I haven't >been seeing any except TAS, Stereophile, and $ensible Sound for some >years now. I thought Hi Fi Heretic was the only other high-end mag in >current production. Are there others still coming out? > >Hmmm... If we can get the people who have the transcendant inner ability >to perform this process and impart these magic characteristics to >electronics to cooperate, we can have a parallel to the "blessing of the >animals" at hi-fi shows, as long lines of audiophiles lug their components >and household appliances into the sanctuary, dropping their offerrings into >the plate and passing their gear under the curtain into the presence of >the modifier, who will perform the ritual and pass the cured component >back out to the waiting arms of its owner... :-) > >Regards, Will >wmartin@stl-06sima.army.mil
Mike.Reaper@f421.n109.z1.fidonet.org (Mike Reaper) (03/11/91)
[] Taking slight exception to your post. CD treatments can and do
make extremely noticeable/audible differences.
Take the CD stoplight, for instance. The green ink it leaves behind
on the edges of the CD are supposed to absorb stray laser pulses,
thus (apparently) adding more delineation between the on and off
light levels.
I know, I know, doesn't make sense in still-life theory, but holy
smoke, when that CD is spinning and the CD stoplight is applied,
the resultant increase in detail is extremely blatant.
[] Only problem I've had with this particular treatment is it tends
to flake off, especially when treated CDs are used in 10-disk
CD changers. Note of caution, do not use CD-stoplight treated
CDs in a changer - I've already ruined two Nak. car changers!
(We're talking the inside looked like a confetti parade.)
[] Per notes in Stereophile, avoid armor all & other chemical
treatment, especially that FINYL crap for CDs.
I met the dude who "invented" the finyl at the WCES. This year
he had a magic damper ring. Its 8-layer, mystic/secret material
combination did, despite George's insistence otherwise, absolutely
nothing.
Isn't hi-end audio fun?
/mr
--
Mike Reaper, Mike.Reaper@f421.n109.z1.fidonet.org
via The Black Cat's Shack's FidoNet<->Usenet Gateway
blkcat.fidonet.org and Fidonet 1:109/401wmartin@STL-06SIMA.ARMY.MIL (Will Martin) (03/12/91)
I sent in the submission which started this thread, and I can now answer at least one of my own questions. Many thanks to those who have responded so far! I just got the Nov/Dec '90 issue (#68) of TAS in the mail, and in it there is an article on the clocks. Interestingly, I had pulled the term "Magic Clocks" out of the air to title my submission, before I saw this article. They, too, selected that same terminology for their title! 1) TAS thinks it works. They keep emphasizing that it makes no sense and they cannot explain it, but they still say it works. They did an unscientific single-blind test which seems to support their claims. 2) In direct opposition to Stereophile, they say the stock Radio Shack clock has *no* effect. Only the "treated" clocks work. 3) The original firm which began all this appears to be "Coherence Technology". They're the ones treating the R-S clocks. Tice treats Spartus clocks. 4) Tice does claim that the clock is just a vehicle for the treatment, and anything else will do, too. They are coming out with a black box to use instead of the clock. What I couldn't figure out from the text was whether the black box is a device the user plugs into the wall and then plugs their system into, like a power strip or distribution unit, or if it is just a featureless box that gets plugged into the wall somewhere and kept out of the way. Some words in the article seem to imply one, and other words imply the other. 5) They claim it has a noticeably good effect on video images, both on high-end fancy systems and on the picture & reception of ordinary low-end TVs. 6) There is a little more discussion on the scope of the effect; I had asked about the "connection" between the clock and the system, and it appears that plugging in the clock anywhere on the same side of the step-down power transformer that feeds the house will do. Now, this leads me to ponder several points: a) Since those transformers service several houses, usually, that means that a single treated appliance could "smooth the electron flow" for all those houses. So a neighborhood of audio/videophiles could save money by a group purchase. b) Why limit this "treatment" to an after-the-fact plug-in appliance? Why not treat the generators at the dam or power plant? Smooth that electron flow from the very start! I haven't yet seen any discussion as to whether the electricity flowing through the power lines would get un-smoothed, thus making this futile. Sounds like an interesting experiment... If the smoothing is in fact stopped by transformers, this wouldn't do any good. But I would think "smoothed" electricity would flow through the distribution wires with less loss, thus being a technology of great interest to power companies, due to the vast savings they could glean! c) But if transformers stop the effect, how does it get past the components' own power transformers? Or do only "big" transformers stop the effect? If so, maybe "big" treatments, like of the generators, would overcome the transformers downstream... The saga continues... :-) Regards, Will wmartin@stl-06sima.army.mil
flip@ucbvax.Berkeley.EDU (Flip Phillips) (03/18/91)
In article <9943@uwm.edu> wmartin@STL-06SIMA.ARMY.MIL (Will Martin) writes:
Well, does anyone out there have anything to say about this business of
digital clocks affecting the sound of a high-end system? In case this
elicits the same "huh?" response I gave when I began reading the March '91
Stereophile, let me elaborate. As I understand it, somebody began
[...]
A friend of mine owns a HiFi (serious hifi...) dealership and he got
one to try. I went over to his place and we hooked it into his system:
ProAc spkrs, Rodger Mojeski power amp, CAT preamp, SME TNT ttbl, SME
arm, Urushi cart. not a trivial system.
We played various source material (all from the TNT) and the clock was
in or out at various times in the listening. I was able to detect a
'change' exactly 50% of the time, and the 'change' for the better
correlated with the clock being in exactly 50% of the time, basically,
you could flip a coin and do as well as I did.
Now this may reflect 'poorly' on my less than golden ears, but,
believe me, I have heard more demonstratable differences with
interconnects speaker cables .
But hey, if you -think- it sounds better....
--
Flip Phillips {sun | ucbvax}!pixar!flip
Animation Group Pixar - Point Richmond, California
"Below the light, in the black lake, the mad smelts run.
The wet net waits. Be careful little smelts." - Ken Nordine