frerichs@ux1.cso.uiuc.edu (David J Frerichs) (12/08/90)
I am about to ask a question that should make most VR researchers stop and think... Other than interactive gaming, does anyone see any motivation for a consumer (ie layman who doesn't know much) to buy a consumer priced VR setup when one becomes available. I am playing the devils advocate for the research team I am in. Consider that it probably wont be full color and not of a high enough quality for professional CAD but convincing enough to give a sense of seeing 3D objects that aren't really there. It could be stand alone or use a host. I know the myriad of high end visualization, data manipulation and interaction uses of VR, but what about Joe Schmoe, what could he use it for other than a toy? Remember, Joe doen't have $70K to drop at VPL (modest est.) (I'm not looking for VR telephones or anything like that. I'm looking at this year not 5 yrs down the road.) -dfRERICHS Univ of IL/CU Dept of CompEng IEEE/SigGraph
veenu@mtfmi.att.com (Veenu R Rashid) (12/09/90)
In article <12617@milton.u.washington.edu>, frerichs@ux1.cso.uiuc.edu (David J F rerichs) writes: > > > I am about to ask a question that should make most VR researchers stop and > think... > > Other than interactive gaming, does anyone see any motivation for a consumer > (ie layman who doesn't know much) to buy a consumer priced VR setup when one > becomes available. > I am playing the devils advocate for the research team I am in. > Consider that it probably wont be full color and not of a high enough > quality for professional CAD but convincing enough to give a sense of seeing > 3D objects that aren't really there. It could be stand alone or use a host. > > I know the myriad of high end visualization, data manipulation and interaction > uses of VR, but what about Joe Schmoe, what could he use it for other than a > toy? Remember, Joe doen't have $70K to drop at VPL (modest est.) > (I'm not looking for VR telephones or anything like that. I'm looking at this > year not 5 yrs down the road.) > > -dfRERICHS > Univ of IL/CU > Dept of CompEng > IEEE/SigGraph One reason for consumers to buy a simple VR setup may be for communicating actions and pictures. Imagine a graphical display (nothing fancy, just VGA or so resolution) connected to a fast modem or ethernet logging on to a main system (a VR server) to post messages, use VR programs, etc. One of the main uses for VR, and probably a reason for its consumer appeal would be the ability to interface graphically or aurally with other people or network abstractions. How about a Virtual Shopping Mall, with pictures, animations and descriptions? Data representation of stocks, budget finances can be a lot easier analyzable. Of course, interaction with other players via real-time action games already exist and are rapidly becoming more popular. Several low-cost systems exist which can be connected via a VR interface. The NeXT offers sound and graphics for around $5000, while the A3000 offers better display speeds for around $3000. Each can serve as a VR terminal already. This could be integrated with connectivity with the right combination of VR programs, standalone applications and server networking. The problem however would be to have an existing standard via which VR terminals could communicate. I would be interested in hearing about other peoples thoughts on the subject, especially that of standardizing a protocol. Ruze
pathak@mbunix.mitre.org (Pathak) (12/10/90)
In article <12617@milton.u.washington.edu> frerichs@ux1.cso.uiuc.edu (David J Fr erichs) writes: > > >I am about to ask a question that should make most VR researchers stop and >think... > >Other than interactive gaming, does anyone see any motivation for a consumer >(ie layman who doesn't know much) to buy a consumer priced VR setup when one >becomes available. >I am playing the devils advocate for the research team I am in. >Consider that it probably wont be full color and not of a high enough >quality for professional CAD but convincing enough to give a sense of seeing >3D objects that aren't really there. It could be stand alone or use a host. > > >-dfRERICHS >Univ of IL/CU >Dept of CompEng >IEEE/SigGraph I can imaging a system that would allow people to visit exotic vacation and historical spots (Kenya, Egypt, Ancient Rome...). Other alternatives could allow the user to be transported to "live performances" (the local football game, the opera....). Just look at what is currently on TV and I think you could find a number of "programs" that people would rather see and hear in stereo. Also think of the education advantages the system could provide. Want to teach your child about space...take a trip to the Moon, etc. IMHO VR systems have the capability to make even a greater impact than TV for the average person. All it takes is some creativity from the "experts". Heeren Pathak pathak@mitre.org I think if some sort of generic system like that could be found, people would pay a fair amount or money for it.
steve@apple.com (Steve Savitzky) (12/11/90)
In article <12617@milton.u.washington.edu> frerichs@ux1.cso.uiuc.edu (David J Fr erichs) writes: Other than interactive gaming, does anyone see any motivation for a consumer (ie layman who doesn't know much) to buy a consumer priced VR setup when one becomes available. There are forms of entertainment that are not specifically "gaming", i.e. VR "movies", tourism (the exploration of a virtual universe, whether a simulation of some real place or a fantasy), etc. Leaving all these variations aside, there are many "useful" things that could be done at home: o CAD, especially architecture. Even a low-resolution system would be sufficient for exploring alternative designs for houses, kitchen remodeling, and so on. o House shopping. Why get into a car to go house shopping when most places can be eliminated with a quick walk-through from home. o Shopping in general. Product demonstrations, the "virtual supermarket", and so on. Especially good when shopping for clothes. o Educational simulations. o Virtual travel. Travel to anyplace on the globe (or anyplace in the solar system). Especially good if one can go to museums in far-off places and see what's on the walls. o VR conferencing. Family get-togethers, discussion groups, clubs, costume parties, and so on. I suspect that many people would enjoy getting together with others in "virtual places." (The effect of VR on science fiction conventions can only be imagined.) -- \ --Steve Savitzky-- \ ADVANsoft Research Corp \ REAL hackers use an AXE! \ \ steve@advansoft.COM \ 4301 Great America Pkwy \ #include<disclaimer.h> \ \ arc!steve@apple.COM \ Santa Clara, CA 95954 \ 408-727-3357 \ \__ steve@arc.UUCP _________________________________________________________
ron@vicorp.com (Ron Peterson) (12/11/90)
In article <12617@milton.u.washington.edu> frerichs@ux1.cso.uiuc.edu (David J Fr erichs) writes: > >I am about to ask a question that should make most VR researchers stop and >think... >Other than interactive gaming, does anyone see any motivation for a consumer >(ie layman who doesn't know much) to buy a consumer priced VR setup when one >becomes available. >I am playing the devils advocate for the research team I am in. >Consider that it probably wont be full color and not of a high enough >quality for professional CAD but convincing enough to give a sense of seeing >3D objects that aren't really there. It could be stand alone or use a host. > >I know the myriad of high end visualization, data manipulation and interaction >uses of VR, but what about Joe Schmoe, what could he use it for other than a >toy? Remember, Joe doen't have $70K to drop at VPL (modest est.) >(I'm not looking for VR telephones or anything like that. I'm looking at this >year not 5 yrs down the road.) > How about a Home Construction Set where Mr. and Mrs. Schmoe can build themselves a virtual home. Could be useful for doing a rough design of their dream home or adding that long dreamed of greenhouse which could then be taken to an architect for finishing. Could also be used to rearrange furniture in the rooms to see what it would look like before actually moving the furniture. Landscaping... Or... Auto Mechanic: A complete training course in car repair. Cut-away views, color highlights, x-ray vision and other techniques combined with the ability to reach into the scene and change things to see what happens could work to create a very effective teaching/self-help tool. A similar program would be the Small Engine Repair cartridge. Or... Many sorts of "this is how it works" programs: the workings of eco-systems, food cycles in the ocean, characteristics of the earths atmosphere, space travel, plant growth,...education. Or... Indoor practice for sports. Your local softball team can get together for a game in the middle of winter. Not as good as the real thing but it could help improve team cooperation and eye-hand coordination. You could compare your golf or tennis swing to the pro's also. Or... What else do the Schmoes do that might benefit from 3D, interactive visualization? What 3D databases exist already that they might want to access? I think all of these could be accomplished today using a crude data-suit based on PowerGlove-like technology, a couple of Amiga's, a modem and some low-res lcd color goggles based on lcd TV's. I could see a system being offered for under $5,000 a year from now and reaching the under $1,000 price a few years later IF the Schmoes showed enough initial interest to excite the big money men. And I do think the Schmoes would be interested if they had a chance to try a well written version of one of the above applications. Looking at the history of computers however, they probably would not be willing to risk $1,000 until the systems were fairly mature and friendly with a variety of applications. Perhaps if it was offered as a $200-$300 option for an existing computer system it would have a better chance. I doubt it would have the instant success of something like Camcorders though. ron@vicorp.com
almquist@cis.udel.edu (Squish) (12/11/90)
In article <12617@milton.u.washington.edu> frerichs@ux1.cso.uiuc.edu (David J Fr erichs) writes: >I am about to ask a question that should make most VR researchers stop and >think... > >Other than interactive gaming, does anyone see any motivation for a consumer >(ie layman who doesn't know much) to buy a consumer priced VR setup when one >becomes available. Have you looked into or read _The Mind Children_. It describes a NEW approach to learning using a VR world. Imagine sitting under the apple tree with Newton talking about gravity, experiencing history visually, etc. etc. etc. >(I'm not looking for VR telephones or anything like that. I'm looking at this >year not 5 yrs down the road.) Question: Playing devil advocate for you, if we stop research in this area how are we ever going to arrive at our ultimate system? - Mike Almquist (almquist@cis.udel.edu) "Engineers bring ideas to reality, Virtual Reality Idealists bring reality to ideas!", squish, Dec. 1990
JS5DWCPW@miamiu.bitnet (12/11/90)
I am writing a novel (working title: _Thorn's Vision_) that deals with another possibility of VR. Early LSD studies pointed toward possibilities of a new type of psycho-therapy, guiding the patient through a series of archetypal experiences, such as the death/rebirth imagery. Roger Zelazny then wrote a story called the Dreammaster or something like that in which a psychiatrist, by means of a neural interface, enters and controls the patients "dreams" during a chemical-induced hypnotic trance. I think that VR may or may not, as it gets more "real" seeming, have such applications. We are already getting reports of "VR sickness" from the disorientation of simulators, so we may assume that the mind is open to such manipulations. This is actually only a sideline to the main flow of the novel; a near-future political thriller. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- James J Saul (Jim) "Pay no attention to the jjsaul@miavx1.acs.muohio.edu man behind the curtain." or (preferably) js5dwcpw at MIAMIU "Who Watches the Watchmen??"
frerichs@ux1.cso.uiuc.edu (David J Frerichs) (12/12/90)
I am in no way advocating the slowdown of VR research... I would (and am) developing it for it's own sake. My question has to do with motivating the general consumers... with all the hype about VR in the media, promising a new age... there has been alot of talk about 5 - 20 years down the road. What about now? The technology is in our hands to produce a VR setup that is lowcost, lowend but very usable. Compare it to the advent of the mac 512K... it is nothing compared to a mac IIfx but it was a very slick piece, especially for it's time. But as with the original mac, no one really knows what to do with a lowend VR system. I am looking for the Desktop Publishing of VR. DTP was almost unheard of until someone thought of using a mac for it... now it is a mainstay of the industry. We need some similar idea for lowend VR. Virtual vactaions to real spots wouldn't be satifying on the first systems to come out. Think of it this way. Would you want to edit a 24bit color scan on a Mac Classic? Not if you don't want it done half assed. The education idea is a good one, teach geometry, trig, volume integrations using VR. You don't need alot of fine visual detail for those sorts of things. More ideas like that are what would seem to be appropriate. [dfRERICHS University of Illinois, Urbana Designing VR systems that work... Dept. of Computer Engineering IEEE/SigGraph Looking for cyberspace? frerichs@ux1.cso.uiuc.edu Well stop your snivelin', son, frerichs@well.sf.ca.us you've been in here all along! ] -- [dfRERICHS University of Illinois, Urbana Designing VR systems that work... Dept. of Computer Engineering IEEE/SigGraph Looking for cyberspace?
rick@pangea.Stanford.EDU (Rick Ottolini) (12/13/90)
Interactive informations seem to be a dud in the United States. Several years ago there were these information service kiosks all over the San Francisco area, but they have mostly disappeared. The user interface left much to be desired-- slow, and deep menu hierachies. I'm skeptical about the commericial potential of VR in information services.
ron@vicorp.com (Ron Peterson) (12/13/90)
In article <12789@milton.u.washington.edu> frerichs@ux1.cso.uiuc.edu (David J Fr erichs) writes: > >My question has to do with motivating the general consumers... >I am looking for the Desktop Publishing of VR. DTP was almost unheard of until >someone thought of using a mac for it... now it is a mainstay of the industry. >We need some similar idea for lowend VR. >Virtual vactaions to real spots wouldn't be satifying on the first systems to >come out. Think of it this way. Would you want to edit a 24bit color scan >on a Mac Classic? Not if you don't want it done half assed. >The education idea is a good one, teach geometry, trig, volume integrations >using VR. You don't need alot of fine visual detail for those sorts of things. >More ideas like that are what would seem to be appropriate. > I think that perhaps one of most profitable and exciting uses of VR could be in the creation of interactive movies. A producer, director, artists and set designers, "script" writers and others get together and create a world and situation in which people can interact via a VR interface. A person dialing into the [vroovie? voovie?] would be charged a flat or hourly rate according to the role they choose to play (the most common role being observer perhaps, at least initially to discover whether one wanted to join in or to study a part.) The money could be collected using a 900 telephone number type method or through credit cards like on a bulletin board. Proven actors, artists, designers, etc. might be paid instead of charged to encourage their participation (a new type of income producing work!) The design would be quite different from that of a movie and would require some clever thinking since it would have to create an interesting experience for potentially hundreds or thousands of people who have no acting ability. Initial attempts might resemble vacation resorts in exotic places (go to mars where you can play 4D gravity ball or wander the jade and obsidian sculpture parks or meet people in a syntha-bar or watch the laser battle against the natives or go to the stadium to see the latest interactive work by that great artist He's Zwell or...) As the creative people begin to explore the possibilities though, much more elaborate shows could be produced that have a more tightly integrated plot or theme and which bring unique experiences to the participants. (I think horror "films" are going to get REALLY scary! And SciFi is going to go out of this world!) Knowing people I'm sure many would prefer to just watch (try asking someone to say something into a microphone) so there would have to be many aspects of it that would appeal to the person who wants to see but not participate. I think something like this could be done today. A master disk generated that has the predesigned sets and interaction rules that is purchased (or downloaded?) combined with a bulletin board approach to interactive access and some simple hardware accessories for some popular computers. All made idiot-proof (like, much more so than the mess that was made of modem communication, right?) We computer geeks are working on doing something like this right now (all top secret/company proprietary of course) and I'll bet the first ones start to emerge within a year after the secret high resolution mode of the PowerGlove is reverse engineered. Maybe sooner. I think it's time for some fun. The 90's have been boring so far. ron@vicorp.com
curtis@key.COM (Curtis Anderson) (12/13/90)
I'd like to expand on a response posted earlier, and make a conjecture of my own. First the conjecture. IMHO, most hypertext systems should be directly applicable to VR. The interactive nature of a hypertext system could just as well be supported in a 3D environment as on a 2D screen. The "exploded automobile" example where the system allows taking a car apart, putting it back together, and trying to tune it up (ie: engine simulations), could be done better in 3D than in 2D. There may be some inherently text-based hypertext systems that wouldn't benefit from 3D, but I don't think that they would be hurt either (IMHO). The other topic is a more fleshed out example of an (almost) near-term use for a consumer VR system. It fits into the category of educational worlds, but I would like to add more detail as an exercise in exploring how VR worlds could improve on "reality". This topic may have been explored by other people, but I'll stick my neck out anyway... :-) One can imagine the "In-Line Smithsonian" (On-Line?), a VR museum world. The "ILS" would be based on a *VERY* large read-only database that contained information on (potentially) all of the objects in all of the museums in the world (even those not currently on display). The ILS would be one BIG museum that contained everything. Note that this differs from traveling to the Louvre Museum by way of a VR interface, then to the Moscow Museum, then to San Jose (do we have museums? :-). The interface software would present the view of the museum as a set of exhibit rooms just like we are used to, but the rooms and their contents would be generated at run time, not canned. The generation of rooms and contents of rooms at run time allows an innovation in museum design: the ability to change the contents of the museum according to user interest. The user would initially start outside the building. They would be able to interact with a control panel on the outside of the building that controlled the contents of the building. For lack of a better (ie: visual) interface, I'll suggest an SQL relational database query. The user would write a query that included all of the topics that (s)he was interested in and their relationship to each other. The ILS would then fill the museum building with rooms and exhibits that satisfy the relationships specified in the query, and the cybernaut could go exploring. This type of interface would reduce the amount of non-relevant information that the researcher (explorer) would have to wade through. It would also allow the ILS to build multi-disciplinary exhibits. An example would be an exhibit on the human ear from the point of view of human physiology, comparative biology, art, and home stereo systems. Hypertext linkages would allow an explorer to follow trains of thought to related pieces of information. Those pieces might be on this floor (in the requested set of info), or they might be in the basement (ie: lead you out of the information you requested into other wings of the museum). The ILS could record the SQL query and your path through the museum's rooms for your later reference. This facility could also be used to provide "canned" tours. The tours could be lead either by generic tour guides or by "experts" in a given field. The different "experts" in each field might lead the tour to different exhibits, reflecting each ones view of the subject matter and the relative importance of each exhibit. The ILS would be able to support interaction with the museum exhibits. This applies to more than just picking up objects, it means operating them as well. Again, we get back to the "exploded automobile" example of a hypertext system. That would be a good exhibit in a virtual museum. Note that the ILS that I've tried to explore above (pun intended) is really a hypertext system set in a VR world. I think that the SQL interface controlling the contents of the building is an example of one of the ways that VR can "improve" on reality. Comments and discussion are welcome... -- Curtis Anderson curtis@key.amdahl.com (415)623-2177 -- Curtis Anderson curtis@key.amdahl.com (415)623-2177
pathak@mbunix.mitre.org (Pathak) (12/13/90)
In article <12868@milton.u.washington.edu> rick@pangea.Stanford.EDU (Rick Ottoli ni) writes: > >Interactive informations seem to be a dud in the United States. >Several years ago there were these information service kiosks all >over the San Francisco area, but they have mostly disappeared. >The user interface left much to be desired-- slow, and deep menu >hierachies. I'm skeptical about the commericial potential of VR >in information services. As you said, the user interface left much to be desired. One of the problem with much of the computer industry is that many "techies" don't consider the need of the "non-techies" when they design there products. The prevailing attitude is: They will use the product because it is a great product. In the real world, many people feel uncomfortable with high tech equipment or even worse are actually afraid of it. For commercial VR to work, it has to have a very natural interface (sorry no datagloves and 3D goggles), relatively cheap ($2000 tops), and fill a clear cut need. Someone will have to design a Lotus 123 of VRs, a product that people just have to have. In the early days of the PC, business managers would say that they want a Lotus 123 for there office. They didn't care about the equipment it ran on, they wanted the software because it filled a very vital need. An interesting model for commericial VR can be found in Ray Bradberry's "Varanda??". The story is a bit gruesome, but the VR set is basically a room that changes at you set different scenes. The kids (it was basically a playpen) could interact with the objects just as they would interact with real world objects. That is what VR should be. Heeren Pathak pathak@mitre.org Disclaimer: The views expressed are my own and in no way reflect those of my employer.
lishka@uwslh.slh.wisc.edu (a.k.a. Chri) (12/13/90)
arc!steve@apple.com (Steve Savitzky) writes: >In article <12617@milton.u.washington.edu> frerichs@ux1.cso.uiuc.edu (David J F r >erichs) writes: > Other than interactive gaming, does anyone see any motivation for a consumer > (ie layman who doesn't know much) to buy a consumer priced VR setup when one > becomes available. >There are forms of entertainment that are not specifically "gaming", >i.e. VR "movies", tourism (the exploration of a virtual universe, >whether a simulation of some real place or a fantasy), etc. Leaving >all these variations aside, there are many "useful" things that could >be done at home: > >[Specific examples left out here to save net bandwidth] While all of these things sound nice, there is a risk: people are going to grow fat and plump sitting at home experiencing their virtual realities. Americans already spend incredible numbers of hours in front of the TV; I wonder what would happen if virtual entertainment was available. We are rapidly developing a society of stay-at-home couch potatos, and virtual entertainment might easily make this worse. While virtual shopping and virtual travel sounds nice, I would prefer to get out of the house myself. Conversing with someone in a virtual cafe might be nice in concept, but I prefer the living, breathing flesh of the real person in front of me. Then again, I likely spend more hours per week commuting to and from cafes and movie theatres than watching TV. Another thing to keep in mind: TV, movies, and radio (all major forms of mass-market entertainment) are all *static* forms. In other words, the viewer does not need to do much but sit there. I wonder whether virtual entertainment forms that require actual activity and participation from the "user" will indeed catch on with the general public, or whether the public will simply embrace a virtual entertainment that is static in nature. -- Christopher Lishka 608-262-4485 We carry in our hearts the true country, Wisconsin State Lab. of Hygiene And that cannot be stolen. lishka@uwslh.slh.wisc.edu We follow in the steps of our ancestry, uunet!uwvax!uwslh!lishka And that cannot be broken. -- Midnight Oil
cyberoid@milton.u.washington.edu (Robert Jacobson) (12/14/90)
Note from the Moderator: Let's not get too speculative here. When we start getting on the outer bounds of the field, for which there is no evidence to support empirical claims nor too solid philosophical premises to debate, we start slipping into alt.cyberpunk-land. I appreciate the strong feelings held about current technologies that spill over into technology assessments of future technology, but please limit prognosticating to that which can reasonbly be maintained given present knowledge and work in progress or planned. Thanks. Bob Jacobson Moderator
rick@pangea.Stanford.EDU (Rick Ottolini) (12/15/90)
[Also the cyberspace conference thread:] Art history might be as useful an anology for analyzing the future of VR as is technology or communications. The first phase of a new artistic media is usually to imitate an existing motif. Often in retrospect these imitations seem silly. AN example of this ancient bronzeware imitating stoneware and early TV imitating theatre. Later on artists discover creative and unique ways of expression in the new media VR is a new media. As its technology improves we will be limited by our imaginations.
jsl@barn.COM (John Labovitz) (12/15/90)
In article <12868@milton.u.washington.edu> rick@pangea.Stanford.EDU (Rick Ottoli ni) writes: >The user interface left much to be desired-- slow, and deep menu >hierachies. I'm skeptical about the commericial potential of VR >in information services. It sounds like the problem was with the design of the interface, not the fact that it was an interactive information service. If we're judging systems on their interface, I think you'd find USENET's standard interfaces (rn, vnews, nn, etc.) to be rated poorly among people who don't have a lot of computer knowledge. But do you consider USENET to be a failure? -- John Labovitz Domain: jsl@barn.com Phone: 707/823-2919 Barn Communications UUCP: ..!pacbell!barn!jsl
szabo@RELAY.CS.NET (Nick Szabo) (12/18/90)
In article <12952@milton.u.washington.edu> lishka@uwslh.slh.wisc.edu (a.k.a. Chr i) writes: > >While all of these things sound nice, there is a risk: people are >going to grow fat and plump sitting at home experiencing their virtual >realities. Au contrair. What is needed is a virtual excercizer. Pick your favorite sport -- hiking in your favorite mountains, swimming, etc. Or a team sport, like virtual volleyball. Program it into the all-around force-feedback suit, and, viola! Say goodbye to stationary bikes and Nautilus contraptions. OK there are a few implementation details to be worked out.., :-) -- Nick Szabo szabo@sequent.com "For historical reasons, this feature is unintelligible" The above opinions are my own and not related to those of any organization I may be affiliated with.
jgsmith@bcm.tmc.edu (James G. Smith) (12/19/90)
I always see people on exercise machines (like bicycle or stair type machines) listening to music. I think the next step is to have your own private scenery go by. Climb your favorite mountain, or take a nice ride in the Great Barrier Reef, or maybe take a quick jog out to Saturn and back. * (but what's the appropriate music for rowing through downtown New York?)