cyberoid@milton.u.washington.edu (Robert Jacobson) (03/25/91)
After nearly 2 megabytes of conversation on this newsgroup, I'm sorry to report that only two women have responded to the Roll Call...and as far as I can tell, NO women have participated, even once, in the online discussions. (I presume that among us are non-white males, so I won't raise a similar note of alarm in that regard. Am a right not to do so?) What does this mean for a field that prides itself on its eclecticism and openess, that counts among its proponents and practitioners, at least in the press, women of some accomplishment and esteem? Is the newsgroup (and USENET in general) simply too esoteric to draw in women discussants, who have better things to do? Or are we in danger, in our virtual worlds, of nerding ourselves into a fraternalistic but ultimately sterile social envi- ronment without the different points of view and talents that women might bring to this newsgroup? As moderator, I am quite distressed, and turn to you, the current partici- pants, to join with me in pondering this situation -- and perhaps, pro- posing a solution. Bob Jacobson Moderator PS Thanks to Meredith Bricken, Suzanne Weghorst, and Natalie Stenger, who brought this lacuna within our own lab to the attention of the male staffers with, I believe, good results.
jraymond@BBN.COM (Jayson Raymond) (03/26/91)
Our esteemed moderator points out that: >After nearly 2 megabytes of conversation on this newsgroup, I'm sorry to >report that only two women have responded to the Roll Call...and as far as I >can tell, NO women have participated, even once, in the online discussions. Why should this VR list be any different then the rest of the computer industry? As an example, the environment within which I work, of the Engineering/Technical positions, only 7% are filled by women. And one can't help but get the feeling that that is a liberal number considering only 2% have technical/engineering related degrees. This is a large social problem - and the VR field is only seeing a symptom of the much larger problem of the roles that are taught to our children - some of it directly taught, but more is indirectly implied in toys, role models, etc. Afterall, how many of you Dads go home and cook at night, do the shopping or the laundry, etc? The Wall Street Journal recently published such figures, and although it is highly unbalanced there does seem to be an indication that it is changing, albeit quite slowly. And I'm afraid to know the percentage of non-whites males participating in this field... -- Jayson ----------- Jayson Raymond Jraymond@bbn.com BBN Advanced Simulation ----------------------------------------------------------------------- "This 'telephone' has too many shortcomings to be seriously considered as a means of communication. The device is inherently of no value to us." -Western Union memo, 1877
willdye@typhoon.unl.edu (03/26/91)
cyberoid@milton.u.washington.edu (Robert Jacobson) writes: >only two women have responded to the Roll Call...and as far as I >can tell, NO women have participated, even once, in the online discussions. >Is the newsgroup (and USENET in general) simply too esoteric to draw in >women discussants, who have better things to do? Or are we in danger, in >our virtual worlds, of nerding ourselves into a fraternalistic but >ultimately sterile social environment? As moderator, I am quite distressed... Chill out, Bob. If VR was dominated by politically-correct LSD-dropping vegetable-rights refugees from the Sixties, would you be wringing your hands that there just aren't enough Republicans in the group? Maybe you would, but you shouldn't unless there was some indication that the group itself was discriminatory. Groups of ANY kind will tend to develop a culture, attract those who like that culture, and repel those who do not fit in. Yes, we should be aware of that and keep our biases at a minimum. Yes, we may even have to correct ourselves on occasion, when our scientific findings reflect not science, but cultural bias. Nonetheless, I believe that we should not go into a sensitive-male hand-wringing session over statistics that do not match the overall population. 1. Be aware that a culture will develop irregardless of ANYTHING that we do about it. 2. Make sure that the door is open to others, but do NOT set up a quota system. 3. Make sure that any published findings are cleansed of cultural bias (as much as possible). 4. Wait for the group to grow. Growth will create diversity, even if we tried to stop diversity. As long as the group is small, cultural unity is inevitable. It was the same way with hackers back in the 70's, SIGGRAPH in the late 70's & early 80's, etc. etc. I await your outraged flames. Be sure to spell my name right. Unapologetic as always, --willdye [MODERATOR'S NOTE: Hearty discussion and not flames will be appreciated, in keeping with sci.virtual-worlds admirable decorum. Willdye makes some interesting points, many of which have considerable currency these days. And some may be right on. We look forward to YOUR commments. -- Bob Jacobson]
jay@uunet.UU.NET (Jay Nelson) (03/26/91)
In article <willdye.669939223@typhoon> willdye@typhoon.unl.edu writes: > stuff about lack of women... > >3. Make sure that any published findings are cleansed of cultural >bias (as much as possible). > > ... "Findings" need to be measured against the group of users expected to experience the VRs that are created. It's not enough to just cleanse the publications so they don't look like they were written by a particular group, the evaluation of effectiveness needs to include users from the expected population. I've heard that women have their right brain and left brain connections wired differently then men. It is quite possible that some of the direct sensory input devices will have a different effect on women. Jay Nelson (TRW) jay@wilbur.coyote.trw.com
trebor@uunet.UU.NET (Robert J Woodhead) (03/26/91)
cyberoid@milton.u.washington.edu (Robert Jacobson) writes: >have better things to do? Or are we in danger, in our virtual worlds, of >nerding ourselves into a fraternalistic but ultimately sterile social envi- >ronment without the different points of view and talents that women might >bring to this newsgroup? >As moderator, I am quite distressed, and turn to you, the current partici- >pants, to join with me in pondering this situation -- and perhaps, pro- >posing a solution. The solution is simple; go out from thy terminals into the wilderness and grow your own. A bit long range, I'll admit, but it's a virtual reality I can relate to... On a more serious note (?) I went to a place in Shinjuku yesterday where they are using VR (standard VPL stuff) to sell, are you ready for this, kitchens and dining rooms. It's an experimental program (natch) and probably just a high tech tax dodge, but you just choose which components you want in your dream kitchen, donn the eyephones, and off you go. Some nice touches; there are stereo music cues (you can pick up the radio and hold it at either ear) and objects can be manipulated (a little). The sink works too -- but it wouldn't let me toss an ashtray across the room. Free and open to the public; appointments reccomended. In the building behind the Keio Plaza Hotel across the street from the new Metropolitan Government Center; 4th floor. +--------------------------------------------------------------------------+ | Robert J. Woodhead, Biar Games / AnimEigo, Incs. trebor@foretune.co.jp | | "The Force. It surrounds us; It enfolds us; It gets us dates on Saturday | | Nights." -- Obi Wan Kenobi, Famous Jedi Knight and Party Animal. | +--------------------------------------------------------------------------+ [MODERATOR'S NOTE: Is this the Matsushita installation written up in the Japanese press? If so, this newsgroup is received by the Matsushita team who will, I hope, respond to inquiries about this application. -- Bob J.]
jwtlai@watcgl.waterloo.edu (Jim W Lai) (03/26/91)
In article <18995@milton.u.washington.edu> cyberoid@milton.u.washington.edu (Rob ert Jacobson) writes: >After nearly 2 megabytes of conversation on this newsgroup, I'm sorry to >report that only two women have responded to the Roll Call...and as far as I >can tell, NO women have participated, even once, in the online discussions. Look at soc.feminism (a moderated group), where the majority of the posters are male. I see a more reasonable representation of (i.e. more) women on rec.games.frp. >(I presume that among us are non-white males, so I won't raise a similar >note of alarm in that regard. Am a right not to do so?) (I don't suppose I could get a grant for being one, eh? Oh, well.) >What does this mean for a field that prides itself on its eclecticism and >openess, that counts among its proponents and practitioners, at least in >the press, women of some accomplishment and esteem? A cynical point of view would be that eclecticism and openness was never required for advances to be made within a field. I would dare say that the situation now is better than it was several decades ago. Of course many improvements can be made, but I think that is already the trend. Well, it's hard to force more people to post or subscribe to this group. Personally, I'd place the responsibility at the individual level. (There is no central authority to blame in this case.) Ultimately, that's where any problem in communication rests, isn't it? Why not periodically post an informal introduction to this group and what topics are relevant (e.g. point out that there's more to this field than hardware setups and conference postings)? As a moderator, all you can do is invite and inform people. [MODERATOR'S NOTE: And you can do the same. Please do. Thanks. -- Bob J.]
Bill Higgins-- Beam Jockey <HIGGINS%FNAL.BITNET@UICVM.uic.edu> (03/27/91)
As a great Hollywood executive (perhaps Sam Goldwyn?) once said:
"If people are gonna stay away from the theaters, you can't stop them."
O~~* /_) ' / / /_/ ' , , ' ,_ _ \|/
- ~ -~~~~~~~~~~~/_) / / / / / / (_) (_) / / / _\~~~~~~~~~~~zap!
/ \ (_) (_) / | \
| | Bill Higgins Fermi National Accelerator Laboratory
\ / Bitnet: HIGGINS@FNALB.BITNET
- - Internet: HIGGINS@FNAL.FNAL.GOV
~ SPAN/Hepnet: 43011::HIGGINSpawluk@qucis.queensu.ca (Dianne Pawluk) (03/27/91)
hi, well you got a couple of more women reading the news group in our lab at queens. we're actually in robotics/teleoperations/human perception but have an interest in virtual reality. dab
trebor@uunet.UU.NET (Robert J Woodhead) (03/27/91)
wiley!jay@uunet.UU.NET (Jay Nelson) writes: >I've heard that women have their >right brain and left brain connections wired differently then men. It >is quite possible that some of the direct sensory input devices will >have a different effect on women. Is this a straight line, or is this a straight line? Another "peripheral" comment from.... >Jay Nelson (TRW) jay@wilbur.coyote.trw.com -- +--------------------------------------------------------------------------+ | Robert J. Woodhead, Biar Games / AnimEigo, Incs. trebor@foretune.co.jp | | "The Force. It surrounds us; It enfolds us; It gets us dates on Saturday | | Nights." -- Obi Wan Kenobi, Famous Jedi Knight and Party Animal. |
trebor@uunet.UU.NET (Robert J Woodhead) (03/27/91)
I wrote: >On a more serious note (?) I went to a place in Shinjuku yesterday where they >are using VR (standard VPL stuff) to sell, are you ready for this, kitchens and dining rooms. It's an experimental program (natch) and probably just >a high tech tax dodge, but you just choose which components you want in your >dream kitchen, donn the eyephones, and off you go. And our esteemed moderator (TM) [M's Note: "TM"?] asked: >[MODERATOR'S NOTE: Is this the Matsushita installation written up in the >Japanese press? If so, this newsgroup is received by the Matsushita team >who will, I hope, respond to inquiries about this application. -- Bob J.] No, I don't think so. It's being done by a major kitchen and home environment company. The whole floor is dedicated to neat stuff for the house. Lots of wierd stuff, including some incredible massaging chairs ($3000 to $8000!). Also a nice little coffee shop that has wonderful english scones (3 large ones, with cream and jam on top, plus coffee or tea, for Y600 ($3.75). When we saw the price (yasui desu yo! -- cheap for Tokyo) we knew this must be Virtual Reality. -- +--------------------------------------------------------------------------+ | Robert J. Woodhead, Biar Games / AnimEigo, Incs. trebor@foretune.co.jp | | "The Force. It surrounds us; It enfolds us; It gets us dates on Saturday | | Nights." -- Obi Wan Kenobi, Famous Jedi Knight and Party Animal. |
erich@eecs.cs.pdx.edu (Erich Stefan Boleyn) (03/28/91)
wiley!jay@uunet.UU.NET (Jay Nelson) writes: >In article <willdye.669939223@typhoon> willdye@typhoon.unl.edu writes: > ...It's not enough to just cleanse >the publications so they don't look like they were written by a >particular group, the evaluation of effectiveness needs to include >users from the expected population. I've heard that women have their >right brain and left brain connections wired differently then men. It ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ >is quite possible that some of the direct sensory input devices will >have a different effect on women. Whoa! As a student of Neuroscience, I think that I should set the record straight as to what the current state of knowledge is about this. Yes, there is an observable difference in brain configuration, the frontal lobes of male mammalian brains are slightly enlarged, and the right side (?) of the female mammalian brains are slightly enlarged (I'm not sure which side, but I do know that it is the one traditionally associated with language). The cause of this is not known, but considering what current studies show of the adaptability of mammalian neural tissue (and consequently brain structure), the cause is likely both genetic and environmental. Some studies do seem to show a component of genetic basis for differences in tendencies in men and women, but also show that there is a tremendous social bias. Upon careful thought, it seems unlikely that the differences in perception are noticable. However, considering social bias, there may well be a bigger difference in the importance and interest attached to it, but we know that already, don't we? ;-) Erich "I haven't lost my mind; I know exactly where it is." / -- Erich Stefan Boleyn -- \ --=> *Mad Genius wanna-be* <=-- { Honorary Grad. Student (Math) }--> Internet E-mail: <erich@cs.pdx.edu> \ Portland State University / Phone #: (503) 246-6120
harold@cup.portal.com (Harold Miller) (03/28/91)
As a high school technology teacher, I see the sharp drop in female participation and interest somewhere in the 8th-9th grade...prior to that, the girls (in 6th grade for example) are every bit as enthusiastic as the boys are..but then the reaize that technology is for the boys, plus they don't want to appear to brainy...this decision affects their knowledge base at such an early age, that they never do go back into technology, the sciences, etc..and we all suffer because of it. Sigh. Harold Miller Seabury Hall HS Maui, Hawaii harold@cup.portal.com [MODERATOR'S NOTE: Sadly, as comments my wife, the neuropharmacologist, there is increasing evidence that the brain grows and develops in those areas where it is put to more continuous use. If one was not exposed to VR or science in general -- regardless of gender -- would that perhaps result in a lack of development within the actual cell mass used to sustain that particular type of neurological stimulation? -- Bob J.]
debbie@IRIS.CLAREMONT.EDU (Debbie Hoekman) (03/29/91)
>After nearly 2 megabytes of conversation on this newsgroup, I'm sorry to >report that only two women have responded to the Roll Call...and as far as I >can tell, NO women have participated, even once, in the online discussions. Well, darn it, *one* of us can't post from this machine. We still have some sort of bug in the news setup, so I'm stuck using the "reply" function. >As moderator, I am quite distressed, and turn to you, the current partici- >pants, to join with me in pondering this situation -- and perhaps, pro- >posing a solution. Well *I* wouldn't stew over it, but then, I'm probably not as sensitive as you seem to be. (Note: that is intended as a complement). I don't intend to post much here, this isn't my field, only a side interest after all. And being pretty weak on the spatial abilities side, it seems kind of humorous to me that I am as interested as I am. But heck, I have a lot of ideas that I can't express, and with good virtual reality tools we novices might have a better chance to commuicate. I ran across a great quote in an RW Hamming book, Computers in Society, unfortunately it is on my desk in another building across campus. I'll send it when I can, I thought of you as soon as I read it. Basically he was very positive about the idea of what I beleieve he called "synthetic realities" (I think the book was published in the late 50s or early 60s, but I'm not certain I remeber that correctly.) He thought that although some people would find it escapist and regressive, that it would be enlightening instead. I'm going out of town for a week. If I remeber and have time I'll mail that tomorrow. Keep up the good work, you're a great moderator. If I get up North this summer for the APL conference I'd love to visit your lab. -- ====================================================================== "It's not what you know, it's who you know to go ask..." - Richard W. Hamming Debbie Hoekman debbie@iris.claremont.edu ====================================================================== --
nevajdic@SLCS.SLB.COM (Cathy Nevajdic) (03/30/91)
I am a female and active reader of this group. I am not in a position to offer anything different than naive suggestions and non VR comments (such as this). I hope that within a few months, when I have progressed in my understanding of the topic, I will be able to contribute. Until then, quietly watching and learning. Cathy Nevajdic
willdye@typhoon.unl.edu () (03/31/91)
erich@eecs.cs.pdx.edu (Erich Stefan Boleyn) writes: >>In article <willdye.669939223@typhoon> willdye@typhoon.unl.edu writes: >>right brain and left brain connections wired differently then men. It I really like Erich's article, but I want to make clear it wasn't me that said the connections are wired differently. Me, I'm comp sci, Biology is down the hall. willdye
erich@eecs.cs.pdx.edu (Erich Stefan Boleyn) (04/02/91)
willdye@typhoon.unl.edu writes: > ...but I want to make clear it wasn't me >that said the connections are wired differently. Me, I'm comp sci, >Biology is down the hall. No problem. A little neuroscience goes a long way, though... especially in Cognitive Science and Comp. sci. Relating to a comment given by the moderator (article not on hand at the moment) about the sizes and relative functional levels of parts of the cortex being correlated to how much they are used (the "use-it-or-lose-it" principle ;-), there have been many experiments that have definitively shown that if not stimulated at a young age (i.e. if the nerves are cut), the corresponding motor centers in the neocortex atrophy almost into non-existence. This would lend credence to the idea that overall brain- function and relative development could be influenced entirely by social development and useage (or lack of it). Further discussion should take place over e-mail (?). Erich "I haven't lost my mind; I know exactly where it is." / -- Erich Stefan Boleyn -- \ --=> *Mad Genius wanna-be* <=-- { Honorary Grad. Student (Math) }--> Internet E-mail: <erich@cs.pdx.edu> \ Portland State University / Phone #: (503) 246-6120 [MODERATOR'S NOTE: The general topic of male-female brain structure remains of interest but probably is better handled via email. The more general topic of how virtual environments stimulate parts of the brain for better or worse is something that is of great interest to me; empirical research, as well as psychophilosophy, would be appreciated here. -- Bob J.]