pjg@acsu.buffalo.edu (Paul Graham) (08/06/90)
well i've used trn for a bit and it's got some good stuff. the thread menu looks amazingly like an nn menu. letters, numbers, `.', `,', `@' are all there and do what you expect. so can space. this is clearly a *good* thing. (switching on threads has a threshhold, but since i'm used to nn -- now -- i set the threshold to 1. thus it looks even more like nn). here's what a discussion looks like (via the t command): [1] Imagine if you couldn't use compress any more [2] Clear enough. [was Re: Imagine.] -( )+-(1)+-(1) | \-(1)+-(1)+-(1) | | \-(1)+-(1) | | \-(1) | \-(1)+-(1)--(1) | |-(1)--(1) | |-(1)--(1)--[1] | \-(1)--[1]+-[1] | \-[1] |-(1)--(1)+-(2) | \-(1)--(1)--(1)--(1) \-( )--(1) -(1) -(1) the numbers replace the subject and the differing brackets tell you what you've read. things are hilited to show current and last position. while reading you just get a fragment of this up in the corner. a command brings the whole thing up. so what's wrong? well although you can move back and forth you can't control where you go at a node with children (it reads things depth first, which makes sense) so it's tricky moving to just the right node. of course since you can't tell what's in a given node perhaps that doesn't mean much but . . . the empty nodes are in other newsgroups. *major* flaw, you can't move across newsgroups. posters aren't so kind. this particular discussion is happening in three newsgroups and people have managed to isolate pieces in various groups. (aside, there goes another 6M to a database.) my complaints are based upon my limited experience and it may be that i just don't know what i'm doing. i put this in .nn so kim can see how neat this is and go like gangbusters. i put this in .b because it's better than news.misc for this subject. perhaps we do need a news.readers.misc. and despite problems with broken references you should see what a 70 article thread with 7 subject lines looks like. now i want xtrn. with graphics (not like xrn).
davison%drivax@uunet.uu.net (Wayne Davison) (08/09/90)
Paul Graham (pjg@acsu.buffalo.edu) wrote: > well i've used trn for a bit and it's got some good stuff. the thread > menu looks amazingly like an nn menu. letters, numbers, `.', `,', `@' > are all there and do what you expect. Slight correction: ',' does NOT do what nn-users expect, unless you macro it. Things are similar enough to nn to make nn users comfortable, but the overall command structure attempts to keep common things in common with rn. E.g., the command to use a regex to select subjects in the thread browser is '/'. > it's tricky moving to just the right node. of course since you can't > tell what's in a given node perhaps that doesn't mean much This is true. There are commands to get easily to a parent, or a root, or the first child, or the first leaf, but moving to a specific child may require some navigation. If you remember something specific about the article, you could use a search to get to it, otherwise, a few choice leaf/parent commands will get you anywhere pretty fast. > [Referring to the compress patent discussion tree:] > the empty nodes are in other newsgroups. *major* flaw, you can't move > across newsgroups. posters aren't so kind. The empty nodes in _this_ instance were in another newsgroup. They might also be late in arriving, or have expired or been canceled. This was a result of so many posters tweaking the "Newsgroups:" line to and fro in the three groups that the discussion was cross-posted to. But I disagree that this is a major flaw in trn, just a lack of a feature. It doesn't view all the groups together as a large meta-newsgroup and allow you to slide from one into another. It would be nice to support this sometime down the road, but for now, you read each group's discussions separately. > (aside, there goes another 6M to a database.) This may get better in the future. For one thing, I'm planning to spend some time looking into a "newsreader database unification" project, that would add the information I need to nn's database format in a way that Kim could make use of somewhere down the road. This would only help those sites that have both installed, though. Another possibility is adding the thread processing into the news software itself, possibly saving the child information in the articles headers (as is done with Xref). [I believe TMN Netnews has something along this line (if it is still being developed), but I'm not sure.] This would not be a very popular approach, since so few site admins would want to install unofficial patches to their news software. Plus, it would have to be developed for both B and C news. Anyone else out there working on reference-associated articles, aka "threads"? -- Wayne Davison \ /| / /|\/ /| /(_) davison%drivax@uunet.uu.net davison@drivax.UUCP (_)/ |/ /\|/ / |/ \ ...!uunet!drivax!davison (W A Y N e)
pjg@acsu.buffalo.edu (Paul Graham) (08/09/90)
davison%drivax@uunet.uu.net (Wayne Davison) writes: |Paul Graham (pjg@acsu.buffalo.edu) wrote: |> well i've used trn for a bit and it's got some good stuff. the thread |> menu looks amazingly like an nn menu. letters, numbers, `.', `,', `@' |> are all there and do what you expect. | |Slight correction: ',' does NOT do what nn-users expect, unless you macro it. right, of course when i use comma to skip an article i never come back so the net effect is the same for me. [we talk about cross-group threading and empty nodes, i say it's a *major* flaw] |But I disagree that this is a major flaw in trn, just a lack of a feature. |It doesn't view all the groups together as a large meta-newsgroup and |allow you to slide from one into another. It would be nice to support |this sometime down the road, but for now, you read each group's discussions |separately. well perhaps major is too strong but i'm a big fan of this. i didn't realize how common it was until i started using gnews which follows references all over and realized that when i backtracked i was often in a new group. what i immediately thought was how this might be simple in the nntp environment. you have the reference, just suck over the headers, save state and proceed. | |> (aside, there goes another 6M to a database.) | |This may get better in the future. For one thing, I'm planning to spend |some time looking into a "newsreader database unification" project, that |would add the information I need to nn's database format in a way that |Kim could make use of somewhere down the road. This would only help those |sites that have both installed, though. it's ok by me. besides i'd guess few folks keep 3-4 weeks worth of news. i've changed the followup to .b only since this is tending toward being not of interest to the .nn folks.