JOSEPH@RED.RUTGERS.EDU (11/22/85)
Hi Folks, I am trying to get in touch with the L-5 Society. Does anyone know their current address or phone number? Are they still a going concern? Does anyone know of better lobbying organizations working towards establishing civilian colonies in space? Thanks Seymour P.S. Please reply Via Mail as I don't regularly read space -------
space@ucbvax.UUCP (12/20/85)
I recently resigned my life membership in the L5 society. They are somewhat effective as lobbyists (sp?). The publication is boring. But mostly I got fed up with their 'I hate the Russians' line. Not that the Russian leadership is a bunch of nice guys, but they have made significant contributions to space development and the Russian people ARE nice guys.
karn@petrus.UUCP (Phil R. Karn) (12/23/85)
> I recently resigned my life membership in the L5 society. They > are somewhat effective as lobbyists (sp?). The publication is > boring. But mostly I got fed up with their 'I hate the Russians' > line. Not that the Russian leadership is a bunch of nice guys, but > they have made significant contributions to space development and > the Russian people ARE nice guys. Indeed, many L-5'ers see SDI as the ticket for moving people into space, and that blinds them to its other consequences. It almost seems that to them, ANY space project is automatically a GOOD space project. Seems to me that Werner von Braun once had a problem like that. Phil Karn (L-5 society member, but wondering)
davidson@sdcsvax.UUCP (Greg Davidson) (12/25/85)
I would like to make clear the L5 Society's position on SDI: It has none. L5 was formed to support and expedite space development so that people can live and work there. Whether SDI may further this goal is debatable. Some L5 members support SDI. Others strongly oppose it. Thus I was surprised to just read of someone leaving the society over this issue. There is occasional discussion of SDI issues in the L5 News. I would say the topic comes up infrequently, no more than it does in this mailing list (newsgroup). I think it would be an overreaction to cancel one's membership in L5 or stop reading this mailing list for this reason. I am neither for nor against SDI. What I would like to see is a strong committment to space development. I see this as worthwhile for its own sake, but note that the USSR would have to reciprocate. The more resources that are put into space development, the harder it is to run an arms race. If you think that people should be moving out into the Solar System, making use of the resources there, building homes there, etc., then join the L5 Society. L5 News articles discuss tethers, light sails, space colony design, lunar and asteroidal materials, closed ecosystems, etc. We also discuss the US, Japanese, European and Soviet space programs. Come join us! J. Greg Davidson Virtual Infinity Systems (619) 452-8059 6231 Branting St; San Diego, CA 92122 greg@vis.uucp ucbvax--| telesoft--| davidson@sdcsvax.uucp decvax--+--sdcsvax--+--vis davidson@ucsd.arpa ihnp4--| noscvax--|
henry@utzoo.UUCP (Henry Spencer) (01/02/86)
Other people have pointed out that the L5 Society as a whole has *no* position on SDI, although certain L5ers do, so I won't belabor that. > ...It almost seems that to them [L5ers], > ANY space project is automatically a GOOD space project. > > Seems to me that Werner von Braun once had a problem like that. And he did us all a favor, too. Bainbridge's "The Spaceflight Revolution" makes a convincing case for the effort Nazi Germany spent on the V-2 being a near-total waste. It simply was not a cost-effective weapon, compared to alternatives like V-1s, jet fighters, etc. Its later contribution to space development was far more significant than its effect on WW2. Even the more conventional bombing raids on London accomplished nothing militarily useful, and they were rather more accurate than the V-2. (There is some speculation that when Churchill ordered a raid on Berlin in retaliation for a couple of off-course bombers dropping a few bombs on the outskirts of London, he may have been specifically hoping that Hitler would get angry enough to divert German bombers away from British fighter airfields and onto city attacks. The attacks on the fighter bases were a major threat, while attacks on the cities would accomplish little. It worked.) Incidentally, von Braun was once arrested by the Gestapo on the charge that he cared more about spaceflight than about winning the war. Dornberger, his boss, got him loose, basically by pulling rank -- no attempt was made to dispute the accuracy of the charge. -- Henry Spencer @ U of Toronto Zoology {allegra,ihnp4,linus,decvax}!utzoo!henry
MCGRATH@OZ.AI.MIT.EDU ("Jim McGrath") (01/03/86)
I am also a life member of the L-5 Society, although I am not actively involved in any of the chapters. My major contact with the Society has been through the L-5 News and periodic mailgrams concerning specific lobbying efforts on the behalf of NASA. From my limited exposure I feel that the L-5 Society is NOT supporting SDI as much as it should be, given that it may be the only politically feasible way to realize the Society's goals. The Society is strictly neutral, and much of the comments in the News from members is anti-SDI. Thus I simply cannot understand why anyone would possibly resign from the Society for its PRO-SDI bias. Perhaps the problem is that the American public supports SDI (depending upon the poll and the time, anywhere from 50% to 70% consider it an excellent of good program, as opposed to a fair or a poor one). Thus it is quite possible that a majority of the membership of the Society does support it - clearly it would be statistically odd if a substantial minority did not do so. Moreover, I get the distinct impression that there has been substantial polarization on this topic. Thus, to an anti-SDI person, the fact that the Society "tolerates" pro-SDI talk is taken as a sign of support for SDI. The Society is simply allowing its members to freely express themselves on perhaps the most important program involving space since Apollo. Jim -------
dls@mtgzz.UUCP (d.l.skran) (01/07/86)
=> => > I recently resigned my life membership in the L5 society. They => > are somewhat effective as lobbyists (sp?). The publication is => > boring. But mostly I got fed up with their 'I hate the Russians' For an all volunteer publication with NO paid articles it's pretty damn good - and getting better under Greg Barr's leadership. => > line. Not that the Russian leadership is a bunch of nice guys, but => > they have made significant contributions to space development and => > the Russian people ARE nice guys. I am astounded and confused by this. Where did you ever get these ideas? The L5 Society is not anti-Russian and insofar as I know(I've been a member since 1979)I've never seen an anti-Russian(per se) article in the L5 news. Yes, there are members(Jerry Pournelle et al) who are strongly anti-communist, but the society has never expressed a position or taken any anti-Russian stands. Please be specific in making such accusations so that others can see where you are coming from. => => Indeed, many L-5'ers see SDI as the ticket for moving people into space, and => that blinds them to its other consequences. It almost seems that to them, => ANY space project is automatically a GOOD space project. Some L5 members may hold this position. The Society is neutral, and the leadership is well aware of the dangers of being pro or anti SDI. => => Seems to me that Werner von Braun once had a problem like that. => I think you are selling both von Braun and those L5 members who advocate SDI short. Supporting military efforts entails enormous risk, but the risk of doing nothing is also enormous. I think both groups were(and are) aware of the risks. They have just weighed them up differently than you have. It's easy to pick on von Braun, but I strongly suspect that without him we would not yet have made it to the moon. It is nothing less than a national tragedy that the only way money can be broken loose for many projects(eg AI for many years) is by claiming that it is in the interests of national defense. => Phil Karn => (L-5 society member, but wondering) => To be perfectly clear: L5 supports peaceful civilian uses of space as far as I know, and is neutral on SDI. Dale Skran (L5 member dedicated to making L5 better rather than complaining about its admitted shortcomings) =>
al@ames.UUCP (Al Globus) (01/10/86)
> > > ...It almost seems that to them [L5ers], > > ANY space project is automatically a GOOD space project. > > > > Seems to me that Werner von Braun once had a problem like that. > > And he did us all a favor, too. Bainbridge's "The Spaceflight Revolution" > makes a convincing case for the effort Nazi Germany spent on the V-2 being > a near-total waste. V2's did, however, kill a lot of people. As Tom Lehrer put it: Think of all the widows and cripples in old London town, Who owe their large pensions to Werner von Braun
henry@utzoo.UUCP (Henry Spencer) (01/13/86)
> V2's did, however, kill a lot of people...
Quite true. The point was that almost any other use for von Braun's
funding would have killed more. The difference between "more" and "less"
is not as sharp as that between "some" and "none", but it often reflects
the real world more accurately.
--
Henry Spencer @ U of Toronto Zoology
{allegra,ihnp4,linus,decvax}!utzoo!henryandrew@cadomin.UUCP (Andrew Folkins) (01/13/86)
In article <1326@ames.UUCP> al@ames.UUCP (Al Globus) writes: > > Think of all the widows and cripples in old London town, > Who owe their large pensions to Werner von Braun Anybody out there know the rest of this Tom Lehrer song? The only other verse I remember is : I just send them up, Who cares where they come down? That's not my department Says Werner von Braun. -- Andrew Folkins ...ihnp4!alberta!andrew All ideas in this message are fictional. Any resemblance, to any idea, living or dead, is purely coincidental.
ems@amdahl.UUCP (ems) (01/15/86)
In article <652@cadomin.UUCP>, andrew@cadomin.UUCP (Andrew Folkins) writes: > In article <1326@ames.UUCP> al@ames.UUCP (Al Globus) writes: > > > > Think of all the widows and cripples in old London town, > > Who owe their large pensions to Werner von Braun > > Anybody out there know the rest of this Tom Lehrer song? The only other > verse I remember is : > > I just send them up, Umm, I think this line was more like: Once the rockets go up, > Who cares where they come down? > That's not my department > Says Werner von Braun. -- E. Michael Smith ...!{hplabs,ihnp4,amd,nsc}!amdahl!ems This is the obligatory disclaimer of everything.
karn@petrus.UUCP (Phil R. Karn) (01/16/86)
> > Anybody out there know the rest of this Tom Lehrer song?
You have to get the pronunciation correct:
"'Vunce zee rrrockets are up,
Hoo cares vere zey come down?
Zats not my deparrtment!'
Says Werner Von Braun."
When it was apparent that the Peenemunde facility on the Baltic would be
overrun by the Soviets on their way to Berlin, the Germans at the site
divided into two groups. The larger one, led by Von Braun, wanted to
surrender to the Americans; the smaller group decided to take their chances
with the Russians. Von Braun's group was evacuated with as much paper as
they could carry to Oberammergau, the town in the Bavarian Alps famous for
the Passion Play. There they waited for the northward-advancing Americans.
The initial contact was made by Werner's brother, who he sent out to meet a
couple of American advance scouts. Von Braun and his men practically threw
themselves into the arms of the Americans; it was hardly a "capture".
As the war ended, the Americans held the area containing the major V2
production facilities. Since we had agreed to turn this area over to the
Soviets in exchange for part of Berlin, we conducted a full-scale raid on
the V-2 factories, smuggling out as many complete V-2's and parts as
possible before the Soviets moved into the territory (which they made part of
East Germany). The Cold War had started.
There's a fascinating and detail history of the German V-2 project in the
book "The Rocket", by David Baker. This is the companion volume to Baker's
"The History of Manned Space Flight". Both are musts for space history
junkies.
Phil