XVDHMAK@VCUVM1 (Michael Kline) (02/07/90)
I love what I see on the list here. I think we have had a few flames, but
most of the postings I see are "in the defense of Jesus Christ". I think
this is what CHRISTIA should be all about.
To all (all?), keep up the good work.
Peter, yes I disagree. Let's take the question one step further. Peter,
you talk about our God and your god. Is your god the same as ours? Do you
believe and worship God the Father? I mean, if you god is all together
different that ours, then you can't really say that much about ours. It
would not be an "apples to apples" comparison. Also if your god is
different than ours, the Bible says, and I don't have the reference, but
that the "Gods that did not create the heavens and earth will be destroyed".
Again, I'll choose Jesus. As the song says, "I've got friends in high
places....". Jesus is my friend.
I want to go on reading some additional posts. I've been kind, please be
likewise.
In His Love,
Michael A. Kline, Sr. SSE
VDH, Technical Support
(804)786-1559
XVDHMAK at VCUVM1
Richmond, Virginiapc1y+@ANDREW.CMU.EDU (Peter Capell) (02/08/90)
I only continue posting this time as a kind of jest. My use of the "my
God your god" tactic was supposed to provoke thought, not more
scriptural citation. If the point is not obvious that we worship the
same God is not obvious, then it is foolish to continue the discussion.
My point is only that you have no means towards understanding God,
except by your own and other human interpretations of text that is
impossible to understand without direct contact with God. You cannot
possibly understand the meaning of the word, "Christ," nor can you
understand Jesus, because you are reading the words of scripture through
a narrow human filter called the intellect. Believe it or not, this is
not a personal attack. It is an attack on all of humanity. We all
share the same limitation, our humanity. We also share the same common
salvation in Christ, but you have chosen to make yourselves into an
exclusive, "700 Club."
I'm sure we'll bump into each other some day.
PeterXVDHMAK@VCUVM1 (Michael Kline) (02/08/90)
*** Reply to note of 02/07/90 12:07
What ever happened to the Holy Spirit? The Holy Spirit "quickens" the words
and interpretations to me. We have the fellowship of the body and prayer
to help us keep on an even keel.
Christ said the words and meanings were hidden from the unbeliever. While
I'm at work and with out my references, I can remember Paul saying "We preach
Christ crucified", foolishness to the intellectuals. I can remember Christ
saying "You search the scriptures thinking you'll find...", but the answer
was in Jesus all the time, but they couldn't see it because they were using
their understanding.
I guess when the Bible says "narrow is the way and few there be that find it"
would indicate that we are somewhat exclusive like a "700 Club". But, we
would be glad to have you or others in our group. It doesn't cost anything
but commitment and dedication, and sometimes it's hard, but I have no
regrets.
In His Love,
Michael A. Kline, Sr. SSE
VDH, Technical Support
(804)786-1559
XVDHMAK at VCUVM1
Richmond, Virginiapc1y+@ANDREW.CMU.EDU (Peter Capell) (02/08/90)
Michael, (reply to 2-7-90 8:13 pm) I honestly appreciate your concern and love. Your mention of the Holy Spirit is most insightful. It is precisely this spirit to which our meditation is directed. My point is that one gains greater access to that Spirit by supressing the heartbeat. One supresses the heartbeat by slowing the breathing. This is exactly the intent of all yogic practice for the past 4000 years. The Holy Spirit was here then too. So was the Christ. In my experience, there is no Christian teaching or practice that incorporates and kind of physiological change to enhance one's perception of and communication with the Holy Spirit. What I am familiar with is sitting down, listening to someone else give their perception of what God meant when in the scriptures He wrote "X," standing up and singing, recitation of creed, etc., etc., etc. None of this tends to silence the "eternally" ringing "sensory telephones," the senses that completely obscure one's perception of God. I mean, you don't actually believe that God isn't here now, as much as after you are dead do you? The only divider between our knowing God immediately is our attachment to flesh, and more precisely, attachment to the world via the flesh. You believe as you like. Believing that you know what you are talking about with respect to God, or God's word in scripture, is at the least presumptuous however -- too bad you don't know it yet. I have a deep appreciation of the Indian "muni," they practice complete silence at all times, no speaking. There's is truly a practice by example and action only. You should know that words are the least effective tools for convincing anyone of your commitment and position. That is why I make no pretense of trying to convince any of you.
UK3W@DKAUNI2 (Matt Will) (02/09/90)
> > I only continue posting this time as a kind of jest. My use of the "my > God your god" tactic was supposed to provoke thought, not more > scriptural citation. If the point is not obvious that we worship the > same God is not obvious, then it is foolish to continue the discussion. > My point is only that you have no means towards understanding God, > except by your own and other human interpretations of text that is > impossible to understand without direct contact with God. You cannot > possibly understand the meaning of the word, "Christ," nor can you > understand Jesus, because you are reading the words of scripture through > a narrow human filter called the intellect. Believe it or not, this is > not a personal attack. It is an attack on all of humanity. We all > share the same limitation, our humanity. We also share the same common > salvation in Christ, but you have chosen to make yourselves into an > exclusive, "700 Club." > > I'm sure we'll bump into each other some day. > > Peter Peter, I got your point that we have to understand God in worship, prayer etc. In those moments, through His Holy Spirit, he can speak to us and guide us. But that is not the only way. We also have to read His Word in order to understand what His intentions are for His people. It is not enough just to read it as if it were any other book, so we have to see each verse in its context, and we always have to ask what it could mean for us today. It is too easy just to take a word and see what meaning it has for us today, but we have to always ask ourselves what could have been the meaning 2000 years ago. Language changes with the century, and it is a very unsatisfactory way to express what we think or see. But it is the best way that we can express ourselves, so we have to live with it. In order to grow in the spirit, we have to both read His word and pray over it so we can fully understand it. Also, we can never be sure that we have seen or understood His word correctly. We can hope that, and there might be a lot of things that might speak for our interpre- tation, but we have to always be aware that we are only on the way to the full understanding of the word. So we should always be open to discuss our interpretation with others that might see the matter from a different viewpoint. As Christians, we are all part of one big family, and we should try to walk together to fight against the ennemy rather than fighting against ourselves. I find it important to unite the Chri- stian church (though by keeping a certain diversity), rather than provo- king separation. Don't think you are right and everybody else is wrong. There is a truth, but we are only on the way to reaching it. Let's go out together and tell the world about the gospel of Jesus Christ. Let's learn from each other and let us be open-minded. After all, we are only human. With brotherly love, Matt
XVDHMAK@VCUVM1 (Michael Kline) (02/12/90)
*** Reply to note of 02/09/90 17:35
That is what's been getting me. If this was a Hindu list, I would not be
posting what I've posted. This is CHRISTIA. This is Practical Christian
Living. Christianity claims (and is) the only way to God and eternal life.
(alright let's not get into works, what if they don't know...) This is
Christia. If you are on the list, you know, or are supposed to know. I really
don't want to have to go back to my CARIS notes and tape. The "war" was
supposed to concern itself with Christian apologetics.
On one point alone, Hindus alienate themselves from Christianity. Christ DID
come in the flesh. Christ IS God in Flesh. "And the Word became flesh and
dwelt among us".
The sins done in the name of Christianity were just that, and this does NOT
nullify Christ. Praise God, He still sees fit to use us. If you were God, do
you think you would have put up with yourself.
I have a confession myself. I was talking to Linda about the postings denying
my Lord and Savior and was somewhat upset. Linda simply said, "Michael". I
said "What?!?". Linda said, "Christ died for him too, and we are to love him".
Yes, He did.
In His Love,
Michael A. Kline, Sr. SSE
VDH, Technical Support
(804)786-1559
XVDHMAK at VCUVM1
Richmond, Virginia
300AINLE--VDACS Brian Ainley DMVGLP --DMV2 Guinevere Pearsonpc1y+@ANDREW.CMU.EDU (Peter Capell) (02/13/90)
(Reply to note of: Sun. Feb. 11 18:42:58) Michael, I agree with you completely. This is "Christia," having its own viewpoint and theological grounding. I tried to get off of the bboard before, but then I made the idiotic mistake of publicly posting a personal letter. As of your reply, it seems you understood my post, but not its intent. I did not intend to cast aspersions on Christ's message by references to the evils of wrondoing, "Christians." I did mean to point out that by pointing the finger at the failures of Hinduism, you do not address what is good about it -- even though I never said a word about Hnduism proper myself except that I do believe that God loves them too, and that you will see a lot of Hindus in Heaven. Believe what you want, you really can't prove anything who doesn't want to believe what you say. The thing I fear most about fundamentalist Christians, (as well as fundamentalist Jews, Moslems, and whomever else falls under that heading), is that if they are given control of the powers of government, they tend to force their views on others. I can tell you now, I would gladly die for my beliefs -- rather than to have anyone ever attempt to force me to accept theirs. If you are scratchin your head and saying to yourself, "Well, what's he afraid of, we're just nice folk..." Just look at some of what "Chick Publications" churns out -- especially with respect to Catholicism. I was born Protestant (thus closer to God of course), but I am truly offended by Chick Publications' rancorous slander against their church -- even though I myself wonder where the heck they came up with the idea of having priests and nuns when clearly Jesus had no such commandment. I still believe we would all do better by shutting our mouths and tuning in... really I have nothing else to say.
XVDHMAK@VCUVM1 (Michael Kline) (02/13/90)
Pastor had a good one this morning. Jesus never went out and taught to the
Scribes and Pharasees. His teachings did bring them to Him thought.
Charles(my Pastor) says that perhaps we shouldn't go and attempt to
address all the questions. It may or may not be our calling to talk
or debate doctrine.
I guess my "fever" comes from my first wife and what I went through with
her. Christia being the list for "Practical Christian Living", I think
that that's what it should be for. If we are interested, someone could
come up with a Hindu list and those interested could sign on. If we
wanted to debate, perhaps we should come up with a Christian Apologetics
list, or a Christian Alternatives.
Point is, if we are to say Christ is God in flesh, and we should worship
Him and no other, I don't think we should have to have someone saying, no
you don't have to do that.
Nuff said on that.
Peter's posting on the "wheel" and that stuff was great. It told us the
basics of Hinduism, and this was quite fine. I am concerned when he
proposes that you can easily mix the two.
I have posted from the Bible scriptures(flawed perhaps to the Hindus, but
Holy to us) that said, this just can't be. I may find some more.
What I would like is to be able to post some sound Christian doctrine, faith,
healing, speaking in tongues, being slain in the Spirit, justification, and
have a "war" or conversation as it were about "Does Christianity really
teach this?" and discuss Christianity. I guess I could do this anyhow.
Nuff said on everything.
In His Love,
Michael A. Kline, Sr. SSE
VDH, Technical Support
(804)786-1559
XVDHMAK at VCUVM1
Richmond, Virginiadl2y+@ANDREW.CMU.EDU (Donna Marie Lewis) (02/13/90)
>If you are scratchin your head and saying to yourself, "Well, what's he >afraid of, we're just nice folk..." Just look at some of what "Chick >Publications" churns out -- especially with respect to Catholicism. I >was born Protestant (thus closer to God of course), but I am truly >offended by >Chick Publications' rancorous slander against their church -- even >though I myself wonder where the heck they came up with the idea of >having priests and nuns when clearly Jesus had no such commandment. I >still believe we would all do better by shutting our mouths and tuning >in... really I have nothing else to say. Thanks for the comment on Chick Publications. I have never seen one of their publications, thankfully, but from what information I've seen about them, they are both ignorant and hate-filled . As for priests and nuns, the origins of each vocation are quite different. Putting them in the same category is a mistake, though easy enough to make. The office of priest is older. They are mentioned in the Bible, I believe, under the title " presbyter " , with bishops above them and deacons below them. Jesus did say " Do this in remembrance of Me." to the Apostles, and also, " I am with you always." To keep that command, and mindful of that reassurance, the Eucharist was celebrated. As the generation who lived in Christ's time began to die off, and the Second Coming didn't arrive as soon as had been thought, new offices had to be created by the Church, guided by the Spirit of course, to carry on their work. Nuns came later. That story is a little more complicated. It all started with martyrdoms. Christians, men and women, were executed for keeping the Faith by the Roman Empire. Facing death was the ultimate act of love for God. Then Constantine came along. Suddenly, the risk was gone. Now it was actually socially advantageous to be Christian. People who wanted to suffer for the Faith no longer became martyrs. So they started giving everything up, vowing to be poor and celibate, the way Christ was, and going into the desert as solitaries, to give their life to prayer, and to fight the demons that were said to live in the desert. Later, and slowly,starting with loose conglomerations, communities of men, called Brothers, vowed to poverty, chastity, and ( since they were communities), obedience, grew, and so did communities of women, taking the same vows, called Sisters. Such groups started out as Orders,(groups), of prayer, or contemplatives, but later Orders were also devoted to active service of many kinds. Some priests are also members of Orders. Some orders are entirely composed of priests, such as the Society of Jesus. There are also priests who live in community without the extra vows, such as the Oratorians, a group I am familiar with, since my parish is run by Oratorian priests. These groups are called Congregations. By the way, how does being Protestant make one closer to God ? Even by an outsider's standards, at least many of our canonized Saints were close to Him. If you want a modern example, Mother Teresa is a well-known and brilliant exemplar of Catholic Faith and of Christian love. Besides, we believe that at every Mass the Lord comes to us under the appearance of bread and wine. We eat the Body and drink the Blood of Jesus. How much closer can you get ! Yours in Christ, Donna Lewis Cor ad cor loquitur - " Heart speaks to heart " Gaudete semper - " Rejoice always "
MFRANCL@CC.BRYNMAWR.EDU (02/13/90)
More about nuns and sisters in the Catholic tradition -
Their origins seem to be at least as old as those of the presbyters
or priests. The order of widows was vowed to celibacy and is also mentioned
in Scripture and the writings of the early Church. There is some discussion
as to whether they were ever "ordained" by the laying on of hands. If any
one is interested, I can give them the reference to a new book on the
subject.....
a widow in the service of Christ - Michellepc1y+@ANDREW.CMU.EDU (Peter Capell) (02/14/90)
Donna Marie,
Re: Protestants closer to God -- JOKING! GET IT!
Sheez