aleck@CN.ECN.PURDUE.EDU (Aleck Alexopoulos) (02/07/90)
Akolou0ei to gramma tou Kouvatsou sto SCT. >> >> Article 1577 of soc.culture.turkish: >> Subject: setting the truth straight >> Date: 6 Feb 90 04:14:52 GMT >> >> Ladies and gentlemen, >> I have been watching the lively discussion on Greek-Turkish relations >> with interest for several days. I'd like to use this opportunity to >> set some things straight. First, a few facts: >> 1/ Several Greeks refer to the last remnants of the Greek population >> of Constantinople (Istanbul) as a "Christian" minority, to reciprocate >> for the Moslem minority of Western Thrace. This is an error. The Treaty >> of Lausanne specifically denotes a GREEK minority in Constantinople ( I >> use this name because that was used at the time and even the Turks use >> exclusively the name Istanbul in official papers only since the 1930s ) >> and a MOSLEM ( NOT Turkish ) minority in W. Thrace. The reason is that >> almost all Christians in Constantinople (Istanbul) were Greeks while >> only half the Moslems of W. Thrace were of Turkish origin. Nowadays, >> the moslem population of W. Thrace consists of 55000 of Turkish origin, >> 35000 Pomacs (non-Turkish slavic tribe) and about 15000 gypsies. They >> are all Greek - and European - citizens with all the rights and obli- >> gations this property implies, and if someone feels Turkish the door >> to mother Turkey is always open. >> 2/ On the question of the continental shelf, it is an established >> principle of the International Law of the Sea that islands DO HAVE >> continental shelf, whether Turkey likes it or not. As CK pointed out, >> Britain even got oil-rich shelf in the delineation with Norway because >> of the tiny Shetland Islands. Therefore Turkey has no rights whatsoever >> behind the line of the easternmost Greek islands. If Turkey believed >> it stood a chance, it would have settled for International Court juris- >> diction as Greece has done. Because Turkey knows that its position in >> the Aegean is unlawful, it is trying to bully Greece and to hell with >> the international law ( see CK postings for details on this subject ). >> 3/ As far as territorial waters are concerned, Greece has a perfect >> right, according to international law, to territorial waters of 12 >> miles and it should already have applied it. Turkey's stand to regard >> such an act of basic sovereignty rights (Turkey itself has 12 miles of >> territorial waters in its north and south coasts) as a "casus belli" >> is simply a part of its intimidation campaign. My personal opinion is >> that we should declare 12-mile territorial waters according to the law >> of the seas and call their bluff. This would not of course mean that >> the western Turkish coast would be cut off - there would be rights of >> passage such as in Dardanelles straights or the Gibraltar. >> 4/ On the question of the arming of the eastern Greek islands, please >> see CK's answer. I should only add that we got the Dodecanese from the >> Italians in 1947 and we have no obligation at all under the 1923 Lau- >> sanne treaty. >> It is really a very enlightening fact that the 1923 Lausanne treaty >> was imposed on us Greeks after a devastating military defeat (for which >> our supposed World War I allies - against Germany and Turkey - France >> and Italy played such a decisive role by massively helping the Turks >> and prohibiting a Greek blockade), and yet it is us Greeks who are >> defending this treaty against Turkish expansionism. It is true that >> Greece's Great Idea policy was expansionist before 1922 - but it is >> equally true that Turkey has been trying to bully Greece since then. >> I think that Michael Scordilis's quotations of Turkish officials >> that prove Turkish imperialism are quite to the point, and no Turk >> dared to answer him. What could they say? They only repeat hypocriti- >> cal declarations of friendship, and, as CK said, "it looks like we >> are offered abundance of friendship feelings on the condition that >> we see Turkey's interests as our own"... >> One particular Turkish person, Ms. Akkus, shows a characteristic >> attitude. Right after her shallow irony about Turks wanting all the >> olive trees of the Aegean and even the California olive groves, there >> come Michael's devastating quotes. Now she is hopelessly cornered and >> does not want to admit it. And the only thing she finds to say is, if >> the Turks want the Greek islands why don't they take them - would it >> be that hard?!? She seems an educated and intelligent person and she >> surely knows it would be very hard, that a Greek-Turkish war would be >> a particularly bloody affair and Turkey is not at all assured of win- >> ning. Nonetheless she makes that statement just in order to insult the >> Greeks who left her and her fellow Turks without arguments. Now that >> is the mentality of an Attila, not of a civilized westerner - while >> the same person later states Turkey's ambition to enter the EEC, that >> very western and very civilized community. To that, we Greeks would >> give the same answer we gave to some other Asian barbarians that >> claimed our land and sea 2500 years ago: "Molon lave" - come to get >> it - if you dare. >> On that particular subject, I'd like to say that Turkey will never, >> at least in the forseeable future, be admitted to the EEC. For a quite >> simple reason: It is NOT European, not so much in geography but in >> culture. If even Turkey can be admitted to the EEC, then why not Paki- >> stan! Let's be serious. The EEC is the community of European nations >> which share the values of the western civilization, forged in their >> national souls by the Renaissance and the Enlightenment. Turkey has >> nothing to do with this tradition of humanism and everything to do >> with the inhumanity of the Islamic world. It is true that due to the >> long Turkish occupation the Greeks were cut off from the development >> of the West. But we are the country where, spiritually, the West was >> born - we are the people that gave birth not just to science and phi- >> losophy but to the rational, free-thinking mind itself. We were the >> most civilized nation on Earth for 3000 years - from Mycenean times >> until the 15th century, and those who escaped the barbarians then >> arriving played a vital role in starting the Renaissance in Italy. >> As Reader's Digest, not a pro-Greek publication, stated (Jan.'88): >> "There is something special about Greece: It is very difficult to >> imagine our civilization without it". Of course, these past achie- >> vements are not an excuse for our current mediocrity - but they are >> ample evidence, if it were needed, that we are Western, while the >> Turks generally are not. >> The fact that I'm writing these lines does not mean that I hate >> Turks just for being Turkish. It would perhaps be interesting to say >> that I live with two Turkish roommates who are very nice guys and we >> are getting along pretty well. We I do hate is the spirit of the >> Attila - and to understand it, read for example the Spiegel article >> on northern Cyprus. Until Turks abandon their expansionist policies >> and turn their energies to developing their country, clashes are >> inevitable. >> We Greeks and Turks have one common interest - and just this one: >> to live as neighbors peacefully. We have no other common interests >> as some people say. But nations do not choose their neighbors and >> ever since the Turkish tribes moved from central Asia towards the >> ancient Greek lands 900-1000 years ago we have had to live as nei- >> ghbors. Let us make the most of this unhappy situation and live >> peacefully. As neighbors - but not together, since we have nothing >> in common. As Valery Giscard d' Estaing recently said, "the eastern >> border of Greece is the eastern border of Europe - beyond that, it >> is no Europe". >> >> Sincerely, >> Dimitris Kouvatsos (dk0a@lehigh.bitnet) >> >>
ST401843@BROWNVM.BITNET (thanasis kehagias) (02/08/90)
filoi listobioi:
nomizw oti den exei nohma h kritikh ston filo koubatso. o anqrwpos
egraye th gnwmh tou opws mporouse kalutera. nomizw oti ekane polu kalh
douleia kai mou dinei thn entupwsh oti exei kanei to homework tou
(exei phges, stoixeia, h sullogistikh tou einai logika swsth ...).
apo ekei kai pera o kaqenas exei tis idees tou kai tis ekfrazei. proswpika
diafwnw me thn apoyh oti politistika den exoume sxesh me tous tourkous,
alla an o koubatsos to pisteuei kai exei epixeirhmata, kapelo tou.
opws eipe kai o hlias o manwlakos, toulaxisto exoume (merikoi apo mas)
to echs pleonekthma se sxesh me tous tourkous: oti den fobomaste na
exoume proswpikh gnwmh , pera apo ta dogmata pou mas taizoun sto soleio
ktl.
thanasiskpstamat@RODAN.ACS.SYR.EDU (02/08/90)
Telika eimaste oloi polu koutsobolides. Toulaxiston o an0rwpos
egrapse thn gnwmh tou grafte kai eseis thn dikia sas, an exete
problhma. Telika to s.c.t. kai to s.c.g. to exoume parei polu
sta sobara kai den nomizw oti axizei ton kopo.
Kwstas Stamatakhs