TSATSOUL%tisl@UKANVAX.BITNET (02/09/90)
Re paidia, oxi kai na symfwnoume me ta grafomena tou Kouvatsou! Gia diabaste to gramma tou ksana kai peste mou ean o mywpikos swbinismos tou den sas tromazei. H' mhpws akoma pisteuetai auta pou sas ma0ane sto gymnasio, oti h Mama Ellas einai h phgh tou politismou, o faros olhs ths gnwshs kai texnhs; Diabaste: >.... Now that >is the mentality of an Attila, not of a civilized westerner - while Auto einai pou legetai sthn An0ropologia: "western-valued oriented racism" >the same person later states Turkey's ambition to enter the EEC, that >very western and very civilized community. Edw, kai se polla alla shmeia, ginetai to la0os ths eksiswshs ths EEC me politistikh enwsh, enw einai safws oikonomikh enwsh (kai se ligo isws politikh). H Ellhnikh koultoura einai toso diaforetikh apo, p.x., thn Germanikh, pou den exoume epixeirhmata otan milame gia "western culture". Kai pws sas fainetai to ".. very civilized ..". Dhladh oi Tourkoi den einai politismenoi, dioti den aspazontai tis aksies tou Dytikou politismou. Ara, kai oi Kinezoi, oi Arabes, oi Indoi, oi Tailandoi, ktl, einai apolitistoi! >...To that, we Greeks would >give the same answer we gave to some other Asian barbarians that Dhladh oi Tourkoi einai "Asian barbarians". > On that particular subject, I'd like to say that Turkey will never, >at least in the forseeable future, be admitted to the EEC. For a quite >simple reason: It is NOT European, not so much in geography but in >culture. If even Turkey can be admitted to the EEC, then why not Paki- >stan! Let's be serious. The EEC is the community of European nations >which share the values of the western civilization, Ksana ratsistikos, dytikos swbinismos. Ka0e mh dytikos politismos einai axrhstos. Syn to la0os oti h EEC einai politistikh organwsh. Oxi, ean oi xwres ths eurwphs eixan stenous oikonomikous desmous me to Pakistan, tote isws na ginotan ki auto melos. >... Turkey has >nothing to do with this tradition of humanism and everything to do >with the inhumanity of the Islamic world. A, poly wraia. Dhladh oloi oi Mwame0anoi einai "inhuman" !!! Osoi apo sas kseroun to Martillo, peste mou se ti diaferoun ta legomena tou Kouvatsou. Edw kai peripou 50 xronia ena oloklhro kratos prospa0hse na ekshghsei mia genoktonia dioti o ebraikos politismos htan mpla, mpla, mpla. O Kouvatsos kanei to idio: o Islamikos kosmos einai apan0rwpos kai den exei "the tradition of humanism" ths Dyshs (p.x. tis staurofories, thn iera eksetash, to Hitler, ta pogrom ths Ispanias kai Rwssias, ton ekatontaeth polemo, tous sklabous ths Elladas kai Rwmhs, ktl). >But we are the country where, spiritually, the West was >born - we are the people that gave birth not just to science and phi- >losophy but to the rational, free-thinking mind itself. We were the >most civilized nation on Earth for 3000 years - from Mycenean times >until the 15th century, and those who escaped the barbarians then >arriving played a vital role in starting the Renaissance in Italy. Auta einai propaganda ths 5hs dhmotikou. Ean h skepsh kai oi gnwseis mas exoun meinei s'auto to epipedo, tote h Ellhnikh paideia phge kata diaolou apo tote pou apofoithsa 8-) >As Reader's Digest, not a pro-Greek publication, stated (Jan.'88): Twra balame ta megala opla: READER'S DIGEST!! > The fact that I'm writing these lines does not mean that I hate >Turks just for being Turkish. But I hate them anyway for other things. >... It would perhaps be interesting to say >that I live with two Turkish roommates who are very nice guys and we >are getting along pretty well. "My best friends are black" > We Greeks and Turks have one common interest - and just this one: >to live as neighbors peacefully. We have no other common interests >as some people say. Profanws o Kouvatsos den exei proseksei oti meta apo 400 xronia anagkastikhs epafhs o Ellhnikos politismos kai koultoura einai diapotismenoi apo tourkikes, arabikes kai genika anatolikes epirroes. Apo to fai, th glwssa, th mousikh, ta e0ima, mexri kai th nootropia. Auto den einai "kako". Exoume ena uperoxo politismo kai prepei na xairomaste pou zoume se ena meigma apo dytikh kai anatolikh koultoura. >well as the turning of the Parthenon, that climax of the classical >civilization, to gunpowder storage room that resulted in its destru- >ction in the Turkish-Venetian war of 1629, those achievements will >certainly add up to a quite impressive list, indeed. Dhladh kathgoroume tous Tourkous gia pragmata pou ekanan prin 350 xronia! Tote 0a eprepe na anaferoume oti oi "filoi" mas Byzantinoi katesterepsan xiliades arxaia ellhnika mnhmeia kata thn diarkeia twn xristianikwn pogroms, kai oti o Par0enwnas eixe ginei ekklhsia. >Do you call me a bigot, lady, for pointing out the quite obvious >fact that the Turks of the 15th century were light years behind the >contemporary Greeks in cultural achievement? Then so is everyone >who states the equally obvious fact that 20th century, say, Swiss >are more civilized than contemporary, say, Angolans. This is, very >apparently, not racist, because it does not imply any innate superi- >ority but simply states that different peoples are at different stages >of cultural development at a particular time. Kai auto einai ratsistiko. Ypo0etei oti h koultoura einai grammikh apo "prwtogonous" se "politismenous", opou, fysika, politismenos einai o Dytiko-eurwpaios. Auth h "0ewria" einai proion twn apoikiakwn xronwn, mia kai oi apoikiakes dynameis eprepe na dikaiologhsoun thn katastofh twn topikwn politismwn: den tous katasterfoume, tous "ekpolitizoume", tous odhgoume sthn swsth koultoura. Kai dwse genoktonies kai dwstou "ekxristianismos", kai sxoleia pou ma0enane agglika, kai dwse rouxa (giati autoi oi protogonoi gyrnagane gymnoi!), kai dwse politistikh, h0ikh, kai, telika, olikh katastrofh twn ksenwn lawn. Loipo, oi Elbetoi einai "safws" pio politismenoi apo tous katoikous ths Angolas! Paliomauroi, akoma na ekpolitistoune! Auta gia twra. --- Kwstas Tsatsoulhs tsatsoul@volta.ece.ukans.edu
SOUSSIS@NYUMED.BITNET (02/10/90)
poly wraia ta les Kwsta Tsatsoulh pragmatika den briskw tipota allo na sublirwsw. pisteuw oti prepei na xefigoume apo to steiro ellhnokentrismo twn sxolikwn mas xronwn kai na platunoume ta kritiria mas pera apo ta periorismena sunora tou ioudaioxristianikou dutikou politismou. Isaac NY YG. to tetarto afieroma panw sti elliniki poiisi erxetai suntoma tha exei thema to poiiti Taso Leibaditi min anupomonite kai toso...
ZAPHIRI@YKTVMH.BITNET (Zaphiris Christidis 914/945-2887) (02/10/90)
Aman re paidia epitelous. Akomh uparxei hxw gia to posting tou Kouvatsou sto sct, kai to heirotero einai oti o idios o Kouvatsos den mporei na apanthsei sta sxoleia merikwn san tou Tsatsoulh. Nomizw oute ligo oute poly oloi eimaste mwrfomenoi gia na mporoume na shhmatisoume mia entupwsh gia to oti egrapse o Kouvatsos sto sct. To na uparhoun atoma ta opoia na katavalloun perissoteres prospatheies apo tous "geitones" mas sto na mas peisoun oti afta pou egrapse o Kouvatsos htan swvinistika kai ratsistika paei para poly, kai einai prosvolh gia thn nohmosunh mas. Giati re paidia na ksodevoume olh thn energhthkothta mas "duilizontas ton kwnopa" kai na pername tis polutimes wres mas grafwntas katevates ephxirhmatologies pou tha tis zhlevan kai oi idioi "filoi" mas oi Tourkoi? Mhpws uparhei tipota prwsopiko enantion tou Kouvatsou, me thn epimonh diaforwn na prospathoun na mas tonisoun oti ehei lathos? An nai, tote dwste thn eukairia ston anthrwpo na uperaspistei, me to na steilete ta idia sholia sas sto sct, metafrasmena sta Agglika vevaia, wste va mporesei o anthwpos na uperaspisei ton eauto tou me nea epiheirhmata, wpws ekane kai me merikous Tourkous tou sct. Poios xerei? Isws etsi na vrei tipote anelpistous symmaxous oi opoioi na tou dwsoun nees idees gia mohabeti kai sasirma. Perrito na pw oti den hanw ton polutimo hrono mou gia na diavasw mehri telous tetoiou eidous epiheirhmata, giati to posting to trwei h marmanga. Afta. Anti na xehasoume afta pou grafhkan, h na tou vroume dikio, etsi giati milaei thn glwssa mas sto katw katw, ton kathgoroume kiolas. Pote den tha allaxoume emeis oi Ellhnes. --Zaphiris Christidis.
LIODAKIS@MCMASTER.BITNET (02/10/90)
Pesta Kwsta Tsatsoulh gieti ksafnika arxisa na ais0anomai "monos" sthn lista! Tetoios E0nokentrismos re paidi mou? Mporei na ginei nomizw dialogos me tous Tourkous se mh e0nikistiko epipedo, alla se ka0ara diplwmatiko. Oi die0neis syn0hkes einai me to meros mas. S'ayto to shmeio eimai symfwnos me ton Koubatso. Apo kei kai pera kalo 0a einai na periorsoume ta e0nokentrika mas epixeirhmata sto elaxisto! Oi koultoures kai oi politismoi den einai sygkrisimoi!
geogiou@GN.ECN.PURDUE.EDU (Ioannes T Georgiou) (02/10/90)
Nai re Tsatsoulh h Mama Ellas einai h phgh tou politismou. Sthn arxaia Ellada phgan h rizes ths afhrhmens skpshs. Ayto pou ekane ton politismo na proxwrhsei htan h afhrhmenh skepsh kai oxi h bountologia!!. O kouvatsos ta eipa sxetika ikanopoihtika - den htan anagkaio na toun apokaleseivarvarous an kai varvaroi einai. ARKAS
takis@ELEAZAR.DARTMOUTH.EDU (Panagiotis Metaxas) (02/10/90)
Einai krima na mhn blepoume oti to gramma tou Kouba
tsou exei duo merh: Ena plhroforiako gia tis sun0h
kes pou eftiaksan ta Balkania (kai einai apsogo
gia ton skopo tou) kai ena swbinistiko me monadiko
skopo na xaideuei t'autia mas.
Proswpika me ekfrazoun ta grammata Lewnida kai Tsatsoulh,
kai stous upoloipous 0umizw to "Mana mou Ellas"
apo to Rempetiko.
Ta pseftika ta logia ta megala
mou tapes me to prwto sou to gala
ma twra pou h fwtia fountwnei pali
esy foras t'arxaia sou ta kalh
kai stis arrenes tou kosmou,
Mana mou Ellas
to idio psemma panta koubalas...
As afhsoume ligo hsuxous tous Megalous Progonous mas,
na riksoume mia matia sthn shmerinh Ellada.
H E0nikh Yperhfaneia pou mas dwsane prin duo xiliades
xronia den 0a eparkei gia panta.
Filika, Takis Metaxas
YG. Kai mia erwthsh se osous tyxon kseroun:
Sto disko "Fragma" tou Moutsh, uparxei ena tragoudi
gia kapoion Antwnh, pou fainetai na autopurpolh0hke
kai paromoiazetai me "arxaio flegomeno agalma,
stwn Xriastianwn ta xeria"
Kserei kaneis se ti anaferetai;LEON%tiger@ENG.ENG.OHIO-STATE.EDU (02/11/90)
Ta grafomeva tou ARKA eivai aksiosnmeiwta (idiaitera gia tnv pei0w tous): >Nai re Tsatsoulh h Mama Ellas einai h phgh tou politismou. Sthn arxaia Ellada >phgan h rizes ths afhrhmens skpshs. Ayto pou ekane ton politismo na proxwrhsei >htan h afhrhmenh skepsh kai oxi h bountologia!!. ^^^^^^^^^^^ (gia ovoma tou 0eou!) Dnladn tnv ekseliksn tou av0rwpivou politismou pws tnv katalabaiveis wste va prosdiorizeis kai topika kai xrovika tnv arxn tou; Pws kai apo pou fugav kai "pngav oi rizes tns afnrnmevns skepsns"; Oses pompwdeis avaluseis n' (pseudo-avaluseis) va givouv gia tov arxaio- ellnviko politismo, dustuxws dev avaba0mizouv tn 0esn tns Elladas stov pagkosmio xwro snmera kai, suvepws, eivai, ektos apo avousies, kai avwfeles. Lewvidas
geogiou@GN.ECN.PURDUE.EDU (Ioannes T Georgiou) (02/11/90)
>>Ta grafomeva tou ARKA eivai aksiosnmeiwta (idiaitera gia tnv pei0w tous): >Nai re Tsatsoulh h Mama Ellas einai h phgh tou politismou. Sthn arxaia Ellada >phgan h rizes ths afhrhmens skpshs. Ayto pou ekane ton politismo na proxwrhsei >htan h afhrhmenh skepsh kai oxi h bountologia!!. ^^^^^^^^^^^ (gia ovoma tou 0eou!) >>Dnladn tnv ekseliksn tou av0rwpivou politismou pws tnv katalabaiveis wste >>va prosdiorizeis kai topika kai xrovika tnv arxn tou; Pws kai apo pou >>fugav kai "pngav oi rizes tns afnrnmevns skepsns"; Edw prokeitai peri typografikou lathous. To "phgan" eprepe na htan "mphgan". Ayto pou thelw na tonisw pio panw einai oti h arxaia ellada themeliwse ton shmerino politismo. Kai ton themeliwse dioti sthn arxaia ellada oxi mono gennhthke alla kai efarmosthke h afhrhmenh skepsh(Thalhs o Mhlhsios). Kai h aferhmenh skepsh htan ayto pou ekane ton politismo na perei sxedon katakorhfh poreia anaptykshs. Me to "bountologia" ennow oti xwris afhrhmenh skepsh den einai dynato na exoume anaptyksh politismou parallhlou me politismo vasizomeno sthn "ypothesh-apodiksh"<===> afhrhmenh skepsh. >>Oses pompwdeis avaluseis n' (pseudo-avaluseis) va givouv gia tov arxaio- >>ellnviko politismo, dustuxws dev avaba0mizouv tn 0esn tns Elladas stov >>pagkosmio xwro snmera kai, suvepws, eivai, ektos apo avousies, kai avwfeles. Kai fysika den anaba0misetai h 0esh ths Elladas me to na kayxiomaste gia thn poiothta tou arxaiou ellhnikou politismou- ma poios eipe tetoio pragma!!!! MA DEN VLEPEIS POU SYNEXEIA MILAW GIA ORDES KHFHNWN KAI PSEYTO-DHMOKRATWN. >Lewvidas ARKAS