ck@REX.CS.TULANE.EDU (Cris Koutsougeras) (02/21/90)
Paidia osoi mporeite kai parakoloutheite sct pngaivete va parete pasatempo kai etoimastnte va parakolouthnsete mats. O Koubatsos arxise ta sprwksimata me tov Martyrilo.... Forwarded message: > > Yes, it is Joachim Carlo Santos Martillo the Damned making a clown of > himself once again... > Let us help him a little bit. > > >>he means and then we can argue about it. at any rate, Hellenic > >>culture > >>is the basis of western civilization and in that sense it is > >>certainly not a dead-end. and the following : > > > >I disagree. Roman scepticism and pragmatism are probably the closest > >progenitors of the modern world. When Western Europe left the Medieval > >period for the Renascence, there was a revival of classical Roman (and > > Apparently, Mr. Martillo has no idea of just how did Western Europe > leave the Medieval period for the Renaissance. He might be enlightened > by being informed that the true revival of science and thought can be > dated from the middle of the 15th century, when the fall of Constantino- > ple to the Turks resulted in scholars bringing many Greek manuscripts > into Europe shortly before and in 1453. They also brought the ability to > translate the Greek classical writings in Latin, the common language of > learning in Europe at the time. In fact, the most common way to date > the beginning of the Renaissance is from May 29, 1453, the day the Turks > captured Constantinople (e.g. in "Timetables of Science", Hellemans- > Bunch). It began in Italy, which is exactly where the Greek scholars > transferred the ancient works and the quite remarkable artistic culture > of Constantinople, Trebizond and Mistra in the Palaiologoi era. > The Romans did contribute to the emergence of the West, in their > own right by systematically structuring law and evolving a rational > jurisprudence, but mainly as carriers of the Greek heritage in science > and philosophy - the Romans were notoriously uninterested in science > themselves. Science, rational thought, the organized rational view of > the universe - the cardinal characteristics of the modern Western > world - were achievements of the Greeks. They were our forerunners, > the ancestors and sources of the Western civilization. > > >Western Europe until the 19th century with the Greek revival of English > >Romantic poets who also more or less created the whole ideology of > >Modern Greek nationalism. > > Now Mr. Martillo is clearly involved in some wishful thinking and > has divorced himself from historical reality, ever fond of distorting > history to suit his aims and longings. If the idea of Greek nationa- > lism only appeared in the 19th century, how did then Greeks endure 4 > centuries of brutal Turkish occupation without assimilating? How did > they rise time and again for their national freedom culminating in > their successful revolution of the early 19th century? Does one need > to say anything more about such trash? > > >>MATHEMATICS and PHILOSOPHY are the legacy of the greeks. (ever wonder > > > >Actually, Pythagorean, Platonic and Aristotelian concepts were in many > >ways a hindrance to the development of the modern world. Greek logic > >was a crude but useful tool (with very little relation to the current > >Hilber-Bernays-Go"del formulation of mathematical logic). The > >Pythagorean emphasis of pure thought over experimentation was a total > >loser. > > To try to distort history is evil enough, but at least one shouldn't > cross the border of the ridiculous, and Mr. Martillo is getting > dangerously close... Does it need saying that the Greeks were the > first to conceive of a rational concept of existence and, more pra- > ctically, the first to introduce the scientific method? Was THAT a > hindrance to the development of the modern world? The rational proof > is a product of the Greek intellect; Indian and Babylonian geometry > did not possess it - Thales, Pythegoras (the "loser"... small spirits > accusing giants) and Euclid brought it into existence. It was logical > in those first days of science for the scientific method to rely more > on reasoning and observation than on systematic experimentation; but > Greek scholars did perform experiments. Pythagoras himself experi- > mented with strings, investigating changes in pitch for various > lengths; Empedocles proved that air is material by immersing a tube > closed at one end; Eratosthenes experimentally (using shadows in well) > determined the Earth's circumference (yes, he knew it is a globe) to > within 1%! And Archimedes shouted "Eureka"... > Or was Aristotle the "hindrance"? He did have erroneous scientific > ideas - the Greeks invented the scientific method, were the first to > apply rational concepts to understanding the world, but were not > endowed with access to divine revelation and absolute truth... The > Catholic Church did use, for instance, his acceptance of the geocentric > system against Galileo; but this was not Aristotles' fault. And his > Logic is the indisputable foundation of modern Logic which evolved > from his concepts. > > >>what language the capitalized words come from?) how about POETRY, > >>TRAGEDY, COMEDY? why is that diseases carry greek names? (pneumonia, > >>meningitis, arteriosclerosis) could it be because greek medical > >>texts were the definitive source for over ten centuries after they > >>were written? have you ever realized that the western european > >>civilization has Christianity ingrained in it? Christianity is the > >>name of a religion started by Jesus CHRIST; christ is a greek word > >>meaning "anointed". the christian teaching were basically determined > >>by Paul, a Jew who preached in Greek. > > > >Many English words have Greek etymologies but this is simply an > >historical accident in the development of the English language. In > > Historical accident, declares Mr. Martillo! But could he scratch > his grey matter (whatever...) to see that the accident is repeated > in all major European languages? What a fantastic coincidence! So > many basic words in all sciences, in all western languages. But could > it possibly be due to the fact that science and rational thinking > first developed in Greece which is also the spiritual birthplace of the > West? Not just etymology - here we have the Greek words themselves! > > >Greek medical sources were basically totally worthless as Maimonides > >(the last Great hellenist correctly pointed out). I suppose > > Again the great Mr. Martillo with a stroke of his keyboard wipes > out a whole Greek science as worthless. No matter that Hippocrates > was the first to free medicine from religion and superstition and put > it on a scientific footing. That even before him, Alcmaeon was the > first to recognize the brain as the central controlling organ and the > seat of the intellect, the first to note the optic nerve and the Eusta- > chian tubes, the first to dissect cadavers for scientific purposes. > That Herophilus studied the functions of the brain and the nerves and > was the first to distinguish between arteries and veins, Empedocles > recognized the heart as the center of the system of blood vessels (and > originated the folk idea that it's the seat of emotion!), Diocles > wrote the first anatomy book and the first book of herbal remedies, > Erasistratus discovered the relationship of the lungs to the circula- > tory system, Galen compiled all medical knowledge in one systematic > treatment that was to be used for 1500 years (hence the diseases have > Greek names)... Poor, worthless Greek physicians... > > >Christianity is part of the centuries long rigor mortis of hellenism > >or the bastard fusion of decaying Judaic and Hellenic cultures but the > >modern world begins in 1648 with the neutralization of Christianity. > > He may believe whatever he wishes about Christianity; but the fact > that the developed West is Christian, that, whatever the reaction, the > Renaissance and the Enlightenment did overcome, should earn it more > respect than calling it "bastard fusion". Mean words, mean spirits. > > >of the Roman elite of the Golden and Silver Ages. The only culture > >today which comes anywhere close to Helenic social and political > >culture is the culture of modern day Iran. > > And now, ladies and gentlemen, NOW is the great moment of triumph - > Joachim Carlo Santos Martillo the Damned has done it! He has not just > crossed the border of the Ridiculous; he has smashed it to bits. > No matter that the rise of Greece was tantamount to the rise of the > free, rational, secular mind - that one cardinal reason for it was the > absence of a strongly organized priesthood, a monolithic religious > hierarchy - the antithesis of modern day Iran. > Let Pericles of Athens speak better, in his Funeral Oration, 430 BC: > "Our city is thrown open to the world; we never expel a foreigner... > We are free to live exactly as we please, and yet we are always ready > to face any danger... To admit one's poverty is no disgrace with us; > but we consider it disgraceful not to make an effort to avoid it... > and although only a few may originate a policy, we are all able to > judge it. We believe that happiness is the fruit of freedom and freedom > that of valour..." > Now this spirit is so much related to modern day Iran as Martillo > the Damned is to reality, and his garbages to truth. > > >>the european cultural rennaisance of the 15th-16th century > >>was also based on greek prototypes, as the allusions of many > >>of the artists and writers of the time demonstrate. (science was > >>another matter). and in general the "classical" education > >>of a westerner , well until the middle 20th century, would include > >>generous doses of ancient greek culture. > > > >Total fantasy. Ancient Greek classics did not become part of > >classical education in Western Europe until the second half of the > >19th century. Before 1850 only one Greek work was commonly studied > .......... > >apparently pretty much dependent on a Latin translation. In any case > >the Dryden translation of Plutarch's lives is a pretty thin thread on > >which to hang the descent of the modern Western world from Hellenic > >culture. > > I think I have made pretty clear by now that the Renaissance was > indeed based on Greek prototypes and the "total fantasy" only exists > inside Mr. Martillo's skull. As for the Greek classics, they are an > essential part of European classical education even today. But of > course, since Latin was the common language, it was Latin classics > that were more commonly studied and Greek philosophers were the > subject of more expert circles; they were translated in Latin, though. > It is also quite obvious that the descent of the modern Western > world from Hellenic culture does not need Mordillo...oops, Martillo > the Damned's pretty thin thread to be hanged on. It is supported on > reinforced concrete. As the eminent political philosopher Karl Popper > stated, "our Western civilization originated with the Greeks; they > were the first to make the step from tribalism to humanitarianism". > This transition from a magical, collectivist, closed society to a > rational, individualist, open one is one of the deepest revolutions > through which mankind has passed. What it means, that the Western > civilization derives from the Greeks, is that the Greeks started for > the West that great revolution which is still evolving - the revolu- > tion of individual freedom, democracy, rationality, science - the > transition from the closed to the open society. The rise of the West > was the result of the Greek values that also caused its progenitor, > the rise of Greece. > > > >>>Certainly by the 15th century Byzantine culture had nothing > >>>to do with Hellinism whatsoever. From the 12th century onwards > >>>the center of Hellenism is the Islamic world which had absorbed > >>>Hellenism with the conquest of Hellenistic centers in > >>>Anatolia, Syria and Egypt. By the 15th century Turkish Muslims > >>>were the main carriers of Hellenistic culture. Now if by > > > >By their own testimony the Byzantines called themselves romaniot > >not hellenes. > > Mr. Martillo's history-making capacities again at their best. > First of all, the hellenic nature of Byzantine culture was reinforced, > not weakened, with the passage of time and the shrinking of the > empire to the strictly Greek lands by the 11th century. The fact that > Byzantines called themselves "Romaioi" is simply due to the direct > political descent of the Byzantine Empire from the Roman Empire, even > though little else is common between the 1st and the 11th centuries. > Even today Greeks sometimes call themselves "Romioi". Greek had totally > replaced Latin as the official language of the empire by the 11th > century (after making inroads since Justinian's time) and by the 15th > century the Byzantines had such a realization of their Greek heritage > that they even called themselves Greeks: The last emperor, Constantine > Palaiologos replies to sultan Mehmet II's ultimatum with a refusal to > hand in the city of Constantinople because it is "the joy and pride of > all Greeks". > As for the 15th century Turkish Muslims as main carriers of > Hellenistic culture, this is typical Martillian raping of history with > the hope of getting away with it. He pops up a fantasy without the > slightest shred of evidence - when it is clear that these "carriers > of culture" utterly destroyed the Greek and Hellenistic heritage > cherished in Constantinople and other conquered cities and nobody > will ever know what countless treasures were lost for ever. I have > already written on that subject. I will only point out that for 2 > centuries the Ottoman Empire was a menace for the West, not a carrier > of Greek culture... > > >>Joachim Carlo Santos Martillo the Damned > > Dimitris Kouvatsos > >
geogiou@GN.ECN.PURDUE.EDU (Ioannes T Georgiou) (02/22/90)
Eyge Kouvatso, ksevrakwses to an0rwpoeides. ARKAS