kpstamat@RODAN.ACS.SYR.EDU (02/22/90)
Na ti eipe auto to malakismeno sto s.c.t. kai nomizw oti tou
dinoume megalh shmasia. Ystera apo oti egrapse o Koubatsos den
nomizw oti axizei na sxolh0oume mazi tou.
Twra gia ton Soush exw na kanw mia erwthsh: Suggekrimena an
an sumfwnei me auta pou grafei o Martillos kai poia einai h
gnwmh tou. Twra parepiptontos 0elw na anaferw kai ti exei grapsei
autos o hli0ios se alla posting sto parel0on. Exei epaneilhmena
brixei tous mousoulmanous pou tou 0ewrei upodiesterous kai se
deuterh fash exei epite0ei kata twn xristianwn gia na katalhxei
telika oti mono h Ebraikh 0rhskeia kai koultoura einai panw
apo ola, oti kalutero exei anadeiksei h an0rwpothta. Kai se rwtw
Soush einai auta ratsismos nai H oxi. Moiazoun 0ewries san kai
autes me ths prospa0eies twn Nazi na apodeixoun oti uparxei
mia superfulh oi Arioi pou einai panw apo olous? Pesmou
pragmatika se ti diaferoun auta me ths filosofies tou Nazismou.
Kwstas Stamatakhs
Y.G. Sourla eisai kai o prwtos Paixths, me ekanes x0es to brady
kai psofhsa sto geloio.
>From
rodan!uupsi!rpi!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!usc!wuarchive!husc6!m2c!jjmhome!marti
llo Mon Feb 19 14:07:43 EST 1990
Article 835 of soc.culture.turkish:
Path:
rodan!uupsi!rpi!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!usc!wuarchive!husc6!m2c!jjmhome!marti
llo
>From: martillo@jjmhome.UUCP (Joachim Martillo)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.turkish,soc.culture.greek
Subject: Re: hellenic culture the basis of western civilization (but there are
Summary: Ecrasez l'Islam! Sapere aude!
Buddhatvam yoshidyonisamsritam. Vaty muhtaram ast.
The Global Culture, Ancient Greek Culture and Hellenism.
Message-ID: <5450@jjmhome.UUCP>
Date: 19 Feb 90 15:07:24 GMT
References: <9002121452.AA12373@Sunburn.Stanford.EDU>
Followup-To: soc.culture.greek
Lines: 164
Xref: rodan soc.culture.turkish:835 soc.culture.greek:1534
In article <9002121452.AA12373@Sunburn.Stanford.EDU> ST401843@BROWNVM.BITNET
(thanasis kehagias) writes:
>>From: martillo@jjmhome.UUCP (Joachim Martillo)
>>Newsgroups: soc.culture.turkish,soc.culture.greek
>...........
>>Xref: pt.cs.cmu.edu soc.culture.turkish:1667 soc.culture.greek:2549
>>In any case, Hellenism was a social/political/cultural dead-end.
>too vague to argue against. maybe he would care to explain better what
>he means and then we can argue about it. at any rate, Hellenic culture
>is the basis of western civilization and in that sense it is
>certainly not a dead-end. and the following :
I disagree. Roman scepticism and pragmatism are probably the closest
progenitors of the modern world. When Western Europe left the Medieval
period for the Renascence, there was a revival of classical Roman (and
to a much lesser extent Hebrew letters in protestant areas).
Familiarity with classic Greek literature did not become common in
Western Europe until the 19th century with the Greek revival of English
Romantic poets who also more or less created the whole ideology of
Modern Greek nationalism.
>>The Modern world is the direct descendent of the practical and sceptica
>>Roman civilization. Now many of the elite of Roman affected a fancy
>>for Greek culture, but it was just a fad and a way a separating the
>>elite from the Roman masses. Really, there is no group in history
>>which was ever more justifiably secure in their social/political/economc
>>abilities than the Romans of the silver and golden age. The Greeks
>>were better than the Romans at metaphysics which is hardly surprising
>>because the Romans were practical people.
>is at best a half-truth. the Modern World (meaning Europe after 1200)
>civilization depends on the ancient greek one to the extent that the
>if the latter was not there the former would look completely different.
>MATHEMATICS and PHILOSOPHY are the legacy of the greeks. (ever wonder
Actually, Pythagorean, Platonic and Aristotelian concepts were in many
ways a hindrance to the development of the modern world. Greek logic
was a crude but useful tool (with very little relation to the current
Hilber-Bernays-Go"del formulation of mathematical logic). The
Pythagorean emphasis of pure thought over experimentation was a total
loser.
>what language the capitalized words come from?) how about POETRY,
>TRAGEDY, COMEDY? why is that diseases carry greek names? (pneumonia,
>meningitis, arteriosclerosis) could it be because greek medical
>texts were the definitive source for over ten centuries after they
>were written? have you ever realized that the western european
>civilization has Christianity ingrained in it? Christianity is the
>name of a religion started by Jesus CHRIST; christ is a greek word
>meaning "anointed". the christian teaching were basically determined
>by Paul, a Jew who preached in Greek.
Many English words have Greek etymologies but this is simply an
historical accident in the development of the English language. In
German, you would use good Germanic words like Gedicht or Trauerspiel.
Greek medical sources were basically totally worthless as Maimonides
(the last Great hellenist correctly pointed out). I suppose
Christianity is part of the centuries long rigor mortis of hellenism or
the bastard fusion of decaying Judaic and Hellenic cultures but the
modern world begins in 1648 with the neutralization of Christianity.
>of course there are other influences in the western european
>civilization, notably roman and jewish. the romans gave it
>their law and administration; these were original. in art,
>literature and philosophy they imitated the greeks as they were
>the first to admit. check out the "Aeneid" against the "Iliad"
>or any Terence comedy against those of Menander.
I will concede that the Greeks were superior to the Romans in certain
areas of belles-lettres but in fact but modern literary forms owe very
little to either Greek or Latin. The political and social culture of
the modern West differs little for the political and social culture
of the Roman elite of the Golden and Silver Ages. The only culture
today which comes anywhere close to Helenic social and political
culture is the culture of modern day Iran.
>the jewish influence was in the religion. the most dynamic part of the
>Jews was for the longest time the ones that lived far from Palestine,
>called the DIASPORA, a greek word meaning the "scattering" they
>gave themselves a greek name because they were heavily influenced
>by the ancient greek civilization.
This is just garbage. Jews have their own terms in Hebrew and Aramaic
for diaspora. Diaspora is just a scholarly translation of galut
(laying or spreading out). Likewise exilarch is a translation of
ro'sh hagalut or reish galuta'.
>the european cultural rennaisance of the 15th-16th century
>was also based on greek prototypes, as the allusions of many
>of the artists and writers of the time demonstrate. (science was
>another matter). and in general the "classical" education
>of a westerner , well until the middle 20th century, would include
>generous doses of ancient greek culture.
Total fantasy. Ancient Greek classics did not become part of
classical education in Western Europe until the second half of the
19th century. Before 1850 only one Greek work was commonly studied
in Western Europe (although specialists might be familiar with Plato,
Aristotle and the Septuagint). It was Plutarch's Lives. In fact
Plutarch's lives (much more popular among Romans than among ancient
Greeks) was written in Roman literary form and not a Greek literary
form and the major English translation (the Dryden translation) was
pretty bad because of lack of familiarity with Greek and was
apparently pretty much dependent on a Latin translation. In any case
the Dryden translation of Plutarch's lives is a pretty thin thread on
which to hang the descent of the modern Western world from Hellenic
culture.
>i want to make clear that i do not say any of the above trying
>to belittle of other great civilizations on this planet. i have
>my reservations about the implications of an Islamic state, but
>as far as i know (we can discuss this) there are great Islamic
>civilizations: the Arabic is one example and the
>Ottoman Turkish another. also, the transmission of ancient greek
>civilization to europe certainly took place, in part, through the Arabic
>translations . i had never heard that the ottoman turks were
>ever carriers of the ancient greek civilization, but i am
>willing to be educated (evidence, please!) on the subject.
The Turks can correct me but the philosophical foundation of Islamic
culture was created as far as I know by the mutakalimum who were
steeped in ancient Greek and Hellenic philosophy.
>on the subject of the greekness of the byzantines, Martillo says:
>>Certainly by the 15th century Byzantine culture had nothing
>>to do with Hellinism whatsoever. From the 12th century onwards
>>the center of Hellenism is the Islamic world which had absorbed
>>Hellenism with the conquest of Hellenistic centers in
>>Anatolia, Syria and Egypt. By the 15th century Turkish Muslims
>>were the main carriers of Hellenistic culture. Now if by
>i have the feeling this is not at all so; i will check my
>references and come back with an answer.
By their own testimony the Byzantines called themselves romaniot
not hellenes.
>also, certainly i disagree with Kouvatsos-bey and the other greek
>netters that argued MODERN greeks and turks are completely different.
>it is obvious to anyone who will look with open eyes , that the
>modern greek culture is a mixture of western and mid-eastern
>elements, and that, in particular, there exist strong greek-turkish
>cultural affinities (language, music, cuisine). personally i am
>very happy with the oriental side of my culture. i am also very
>happy with the western side of my culture (which connects me
>directly to my ancient greek heritage) except that, with
>ancestors like that, what can one do to beat them? it's hopeless.
I am somewhat confused by this statement. I always thought there
was a big distinction between ancient Greek culture associated with
men like Socrates, Plato, Aristotle and post-Alexandrian Hellenic
culture which was a fusion of Greek and Oriental culture. We use
lots of terms from ancient Greek culture in discussing politics but
the intellectuals of the Anglo-French Enlightenment like Montesquieu,
Locke and Franklin all used Roman models almost exclusively in their
political works.
>>Joachim Carlo Santos Martillo the Damned
> thanasis kehagiasSOUSSIS@NYUMED.BITNET (02/22/90)
giati eidika se mena h erwthsi Stamataki mhpws prepei na sou upograpsoume kai olas pistopoiitiko xrhstwn idewn;;; giati arage mou jhtas emena apo 350 melh tis listas ti pisteuw gia to Martillo kai tis 0ewries tou;;; mhpws arages kaneis diakriseis;;;; gia tous kainourgious o Stamatakis einai ena kalo paidi kai sto parel0on exei dixei idiaiterh euais0isia gia autous tous allo0riskous pou pane na prosballoun ta ellhnoxristianika ideodh. xaraktiristikh einai h periptosh ths dhmosieusis sth lista tou kataptistou "kwlwellhnes" tou nioniou pou o Stamatakis suntaxtike me tin gennaia omada Lignou sti prospa0eia na katatropwsoun ton allofulo pou to dhmosieuse. Isaac NY YG den ka0omai na diabazw ta katebata tou grafikou Martillo alla pisteuw oti 0elei prosoxh. kai eutixws gia auton uparxoun panta oi koubatsoi kai oi gaurielatoi pou tou thn dinoun.
kpstamat@RODAN.ACS.SYR.EDU (02/22/90)
Auto to mail apeu0unetai perissotero ston Soush, opote osous den
tous endiaferoun oi kaugades mporoun na to kanoun delete.
Prwtw-prwta Isaak, proswpika pisteuw oti dialexes la0os epaggelma.
0a mporouses na gineis prwths taxews dikhgoros. Kai to ennow auto,
giati xefeugeis wraia apo to kuriws 0ema kai to rixneis sto proswpiko.
Telika den se parexhgw, tropos sou einai, oti 0eleis kaneis, dikaiwma sou.
Twra gia to comment sou oson afora to proswpo mou, exw na dhlwsw,
xwris kanena fobo mhpws 0ewrh0w opis0odromikos, fasistas, tourkofagos,
kai alla, ta exeis:
Nai eimai Ellhnas kai xristianos or0odoxos opws grafei h astunomikh
mou tautothta kai to niw0w auto.
Gia to oti dinw megalh shmasia ston tourkiko kindyno, exw proswpikes
empeiries pou den xexniountai eukola. Ena megalo meros ths oikogeneias
mou karagetai apo thn Mikra Asia, Smurnh. O papous mou kremasthke
apo tous Tourkous (tsetes) giati krathse amuna gia na glutwsoun ta
gynaikopaida. H adelfh ths giagias mou, pou akomh thn 0umamai, mia
trelh gria na trexei mesa stous dromous, san kapoios na thn kunhgaei
xwris logo, kai na fwnazei "erxontai erxontai". Blepeis thn biasan
oi Tourkoi otan htan 12 xronwn koritsaki kai apo tote exase ta logika ths.
Blepw loipon, oti ta idia pragmata sunebhsan to 74 sthn Kupro
kai mporei mellontika na sumboun kai se alles ellhnikes oikogeneies.
Gi' auto ton logo file mou, dinw megalh shmasia sto to ti kanoun
oi geitones.
Kwstas StamatalhsSOUSSIS@NYUMED.BITNET (02/22/90)
popo shrial to kaname re paidia alla den borw na mhn apantisw ston agaphto Aleura. auto pou h0ela na pw agaphte einai oti kai alloi ekfrastikan gia to Martillo kai auta pou lex0hkan ektos apo mena Paradhgma o Giannhs Blotzos pou ekfrake kai autos (me sugxoreis Giannh) den phge o Stamatakis na pei gia pes mou Blotze mhpws eisai an0ellnas, mhpws kai sumfwneis me ton Martillo... anti0eta auto shneuei me emena "mhpws ebraie Soussi exeis tis idies idees me ton allo suxamero ebraio Martillo xeka0arise edw kai twra thn 0esh sou" pws na to poume einai 0ema attitude kai epeidi uparxoun prohgoumena sti lista uparxoun kai euais0hsies telika to jhtima den einai sobaro kai to point mou nomijw oti perase kala 0a einai na mhn ginei anatoliko jhthma alla kian ginei edw eimai...