moth@dartmouth.edu (Tom Leathrum) (01/06/90)
Index Number: 6151 I'm sure most people don't need to be reminded of the flames recently about "merciful God", etc. I just want to see them all in one place, and to come to Bill McGarry's defense. It started with a comment a while ago, from "JK" (sorry I don't remember who it was, either): JK> PEOPLE AND MAKES THEM WANT TO HELP OTHERS.THERES A REASON FOR JK> EVERYTHING. The responses were quick. >From Alan.Hess@f1000.n261.z1.fidonet.org: AH> If that is true, then let's can all the false advertising about AH> our "merciful God". Mercy does not equal crippling the innocent. *adh* >From 34AEJ7D@CMUVM.BITNET (Bill Gorman): BG> Amen to that! Religion is the first, foremost and most effective sop BG> foisted upon the disABLED community by the non-disabled in an effort, BG> sometimes consious, sometimes unconcious, to prevent the disABLED BG> person(s) from asking embarassing questions about such things as their BG> Civil Rights, jobs, proper medical care, etc., etc. >From Alan Hess again: AH> My point was very simple: If you are correct in saying that AH> disabled people are that way because God wants it that way, then AH> your God is not the merciful being described in your Bible. AH> Mercy implies not harming innocents - in fact, it also implies AH> not harming the guilty! *adh* >From Jerry.Pickup@p33.f1.n360.z1.fidonet.org: JP> Alan, I would hope that God wants me where I am. For what reason JP> I'm not exactly sure, but I have some god ideas. Dosen't really JP> matter because I trust Him to know why. To say that He doesn't JP> want me where I am implies that He is not in control of my life as JP> I have trusted him to be. JP> JP> After all, he loved his only son Jesus and look what he allowed Him JP> to go through. Do I really have anything to complain about? >From Joe.Chamberlain@f302.n141.z1.fidonet.org: JC> I have trouble with a God who would permit his Son to die such JC> a terrible death. I have trouble with a God who permits little JC> children to starve to death, who allows church spokespersons to bilk JC> millions out of people, and who overlooks conditions like SCI, JC> blindness, AIDS, birth defects, and child abuse. JC> I have trouble reconciling a merciful God with the one who JC> demands vengence. Then there was a cute (even if terribly stereotypical) story which I don't think was really meant as a response on this thread, but kind of fits into the context: (Is Jerry Kramer the original JK? I kind of doubt it, but maybe I'm wrong....) >From Jerry.Kramer@f115.n132.z1.fidonet.org: JK> One job I had was being an 70+ hour a day job running a home for the JK> handicapped .. I saw so much of God inside them that it really made me JK> feel bad when I took them to a large church of 3,000 people and watched JK> some of those people say that 'people like that shouldn't even be here'. JK> What I told them was 'I see more of God in them than I do in you... They JK> honestly without holding back show affection, friendliness, and when they JK> do pray or worship God.. I puts a lot of Christians to shame!' (me JK> too!).. These men and women were so open and child-like in though, manner JK> and deed.. they had nothing to be ashamed of.. thay accepted someone with JK> so much love especially when you showed them love first... It was JK> definitely a return of 450% of love.. I really miss them... JK> If someone told me Handicapped people were a product of sin... I'll sin JK> anytime! (I even told God that too!) But this is where I draw the line: >From Ed Arnold * era@ncar.ucar.edu: EA> Seems to me this is what we have a moderator for. Bill, how about EA> putting the kabosh on these types of postings? All they do is raise EA> everyone's blood pressure and occupy net bandwidth that could be better EA> used for something else. Does anyone need to be reminded of the fuzzy EA> thinking and bigotry out there in the big world? Someone's got to come to Bill's defense, so it might as well be me. Bill's role in this group is not to screen out things which might generate flames -- in fact, the flames are what keep the group interesting. Bill's role is only to screen out the truly offensive stuff. I don't know how many of you will remember a thread from a few months ago about a joke that appeared on rec.humor, but Bill made a wise choice in keeping the joke from appearing here (it had something to do with wheelchairs and microwave ovens). I seem to recall he actually edited it out of one letter. First of all, the original posting was not *intentionally* inflammatory, that much seems clear. It was just naive. Poeple like "JK" need to be set straight, and this *IS* (I'll emphasise this in as many ways as I possibly can) the right place to do it. My family has been dealing, at our church, with the same kind of problems Jerry Kramer described -- for example, they originally wouldn't let my little brother into a regular Sunday school class, asking instead that we go to another church! I'm sorry to say we didn't. Roger is now fully enrolled in the regular class, though. That sort of sums up my point: the people who tried to keep Roger out of the regular class, the people in Jerry Kramer's church, and the original "JK" were all naive enough not to realize that what they were doing was nothing short of discrimination, thinly veiled in some mumblings about God -- but they *can* be shown why the attitudes are wrong and unfair, and then feel good about having learned something. I commend Bill not only for posting the original commment, but for having the patience to put up with the ensuing glut of flames -- including Ed Arnold's. Regards, Tom Leathrum moth@dartmouth.edu
wtm@bunker.uucp (Bill McGarry) (01/06/90)
Index Number: 6152 Thanks, Tom, for the compliments. Also, thank you, Ed, for letting me know how you feel on the subject. Being a moderator for the Handicap Digest mailing list (L-HCAP) and the Handicap News Usenet News group (misc.handicap) is rather unique since I am not the moderator of any of the Fidonet conferences that are gatewayed into the Digest and the News (although I do not gateway all of the messages that come in from Fidonet). So no matter what I do, this discussion of the disabled and their "sins" will continue to rage on Fidonet so unless it gets completely out of hand, I think that the best thing is to continue to gateway these messages. Bill
era@era.scd.ucar.edu (Ed Arnold) (01/10/90)
Index Number: 6165 In article <9478@bunker.UUCP> moth@dartmouth.edu (Tom Leathrum) writes: |But this is where I draw the line: | |>From Ed Arnold * era@ncar.ucar.edu: | EA> Seems to me this is what we have a moderator for. Bill, how about | EA> putting the kabosh on these types of postings? All they do is raise | EA> everyone's blood pressure and occupy net bandwidth that could be better | EA> used for something else. Does anyone need to be reminded of the fuzzy | EA> thinking and bigotry out there in the big world? | |Someone's got to come to Bill's defense, so it might as well be me. Bill's |role in this group is not to screen out things which might generate flames -- |in fact, the flames are what keep the group interesting. Bill's role is only |to screen out the truly offensive stuff. | . | . | . |unfair, and then feel good about having learned something. I commend Bill not |only for posting the original commment, but for having the patience to put up |with the ensuing glut of flames -- including Ed Arnold's. Let me emphasize that I was NOT flaming Bill McGarry. In fact, anyone who can moderate a group with this kind of volume without coming unglued, must be a saint. I hereby nominate Bill for Sainthood. [Note from Bill McGarry: Ed, I did not take it as a flame and thanks for the nomination!] My flamings were an expression of my own frustration with the posturings of certain "religious" people about the causes of disability ... and the fact that my temper has been rather short of late. I'll try to stay away from that topic in the future. And I hereby nominate Tom Leathrum to be the Church Lady of misc.handicap. Tom, please exercise your comic ability to dispatch "JK" and his brethren in the way they ought to be dispatched. (Unfortunately, I don't have that ability.) -- ---------- Ed Arnold * era@ncar.ucar.edu * era@ncario [bitnet] * ...!ncar!era [uucp]
moth@dartmouth.edu (Tom Leathrum) (01/12/90)
Index Number: 6183
era@era.scd.ucar.edu (Ed Arnold) writes:
EA> Let me emphasize that I was NOT flaming Bill McGarry. [...] My
EA> flamings were an expression of my own frustration with the posturings
EA> of certain "religious" people about the causes of disability ... and the
EA> fact that my temper has been rather short of late.
I understood that, and I'm sorry if my comments were so easy to
misinterpret. Bill has to "put up with" the flames in the sense of
reading/gating/etc. I just think you jumped on Bill for doing his
job, which doesn't seem fair.
EA> Tom, please exercise
EA> your comic ability to dispatch "JK" and his brethren in the way they
ought
EA> to be dispatched. (Unfortunately, I don't have that ability.)
Again, I'm afraid you may have missed my point -- "JK" and ilk
should not be "dispatched" at all, they should be informed, and
this *is* an appropriate forum for just such a discussion. These
things take time, though -- the time between when my family moved
to South Carolina and were told that Roger couldn't enroll in the
normal Sunday school class, and the time he actually enrolled in it
was about six years. I empathize with your short temper -- I gave
up on organized religion long ago, for a variety of reasons, among
them experiences such as this one with Roger after we moved. In
the mean time, I have learned a valuable lesson from the patience
my parents showed in the face of blind ignorance.
I would like to hear from "JK" again to see if this discussion has had any
effect.
Regards,
Tom Leathrum
moth@dartmouth.edu