34AEJ7D@CMUVM.BITNET (Bill Gorman) (01/03/90)
Index Number: 6014 > < JK: PEOPLE AND MAKES THEM WANT TO HELP OTHERS.THERES A REASON FOR > < JK: EVERYTHING. > >If that is true, then let's can all the false advertising about >our "merciful God". Mercy does not equal crippling the innocent. *adh* > >-- >Uucp: ..!{decvax,oliveb}!bunker!hcap!hnews!261!1000!Alan.Hess >Internet: Alan.Hess@f1000.n261.z1.fidonet.org Amen to that! Religion is the first, foremost and most effective sop foisted upon the disABLED community by the non-disabled in an effort, sometimes consious, sometimes unconcious, to prevent the disABLED person(s) from asking embarassing questions about such things as their Civil Rights, jobs, proper medical care, etc., etc. ========================================================================= |This message is subject to the restrictions of The Electronic | |Communications Privacy Act of 1986, Public Law 99-508, as amended.| =========================================================================
era@era.ucar.edu (Ed Arnold) (01/04/90)
Index Number: 6020 In article <9328@bunker.UUCP> 34AEJ7D@CMUVM.BITNET (Bill Gorman) writes: >Index Number: 6014 > >> < JK: PEOPLE AND MAKES THEM WANT TO HELP OTHERS.THERES A REASON FOR >> < JK: EVERYTHING. >> >>If that is true, then let's can all the false advertising about >>our "merciful God". Mercy does not equal crippling the innocent. *adh* >> >>-- >>Uucp: ..!{decvax,oliveb}!bunker!hcap!hnews!261!1000!Alan.Hess >>Internet: Alan.Hess@f1000.n261.z1.fidonet.org > >Amen to that! Religion is the first, foremost and most effective sop >foisted upon the disABLED community by the non-disabled in an effort, >sometimes consious, sometimes unconcious, to prevent the disABLED >person(s) from asking embarassing questions about such things as their >Civil Rights, jobs, proper medical care, etc., etc. Postings by people of the ilk of "JK" also irk me to no end. I'd rather read something informational or inspirational than another guilt-trip complete with blind, slathering obedience to pseudo-pious principles ("There's a reason for everything"?? I'll bet "JK" has never heard of Rabbi Kushner), and complete lack of logic. Such postings are nothing more than slightly watered down versions of the immortal words brought to us by Eileen Marie Gardner, special assistant to William Bennett during Reagan's tenure (the one who was sacked after the public outcry following her comments about handicapped people). Seems to me this is what we have a moderator for. Bill, how about putting the kabosh on these types of postings? All they do is raise everyone's blood pressure and occupy net bandwidth that could be better used for something else. Does anyone need to be reminded of the fuzzy thinking and bigotry out there in the big world? ---------- Ed Arnold * era@ncar.ucar.edu * era@ncario [bitnet] * ...!ncar!era [uucp]
Jerry.Kramer@f115.n132.z1.fidonet.org (Jerry Kramer) (01/04/90)
Index Number: 6023
I am not disabled, even though my eyesight is 20/15 left and 20/300
right.. and because of my premature birth of 3 1/2 months.. i was lewft
with a deformed left hand.
One job I had was being an 70+ hour a day job running a home for the
handicapped .. I saw so much of God inside them that it really made me
feel bad when I took them to a large church of 3,000 people and watched
some of those people say that 'people like that shouldn't even be here'.
What I told them was 'I see more of God in them than I do in you... They
honestly without holding back show affection, friendliness, and when they
do pray or worship God.. I puts a lot of Christians to shame!' (me
too!).. These men and women were so open and child-like in though, manner
and deed.. they had nothing to be ashamed of.. thay accepted someone with
so much love especially when you showed them love first... It was
definitely a return of 450% of love.. I really miss them...
If someone told me Handicapped people were a product of sin... I'll sin
anytime! (I even told God that too!)
Reguards;
Jerry Kramer
--
Uucp: ..!{decvax,oliveb}!bunker!hcap!hnews!132!115!Jerry.Kramer
Internet: Jerry.Kramer@f115.n132.z1.fidonet.orgJoe.Chamberlain@f302.n141.z1.fidonet.org (Joe Chamberlain) (01/05/90)
Index Number: 6043
AH> My point was very simple: If you are correct in saying that
AH> disabled people are that way because God wants it that way, then
AH> your God is not the merciful being described in your Bible.
AH> Mercy implies not harming innocents - in fact, it also implies
AH> not harming the guilty! *adh*
I have trouble with a God who would permit his Son to die such
a terrible death. I have trouble with a God who permits little
children to starve to death, who allows church spokespersons to bilk
millions out of people, and who overlooks conditions like SCI,
blindness, AIDS, birth defects, and child abuse.
I have trouble reconciling a merciful God with the one who
demands vengence.
-=joe=-
--
Uucp: ..!{decvax,oliveb}!bunker!hcap!hnews!302!Joe.Chamberlain
Internet: Joe.Chamberlain@f302.n141.z1.fidonet.orgJerry.Pickup@p33.f1.n360.z1.fidonet.org (Jerry Pickup) (01/05/90)
Index Number: 6050
In a message to Joe Kennedy <16 Dec 89 18:38:00> Alan Hess wrote:
AH> My point was very simple: If you are correct in saying that disabled
AH> people are that way because God wants it that way, then your God is
AH> not the merciful being described in your Bible. Mercy implies not
AH> harming innocents - in fact, it also
AH> implies not harming the guilty! *adh*
Alan, I would hope that God wants me where I am. For what reason
I'm not exactly sure, but I have some god ideas. Dosen't really
matter because I trust Him to know why. To say that He doesn't
want me where I am implies that He is not in control of my life as
I have trusted him to be.
After all, he loved his only son Jesus and look what he allowed Him
to go through. Do I really have anything to complain about?
-Jerry
--
Uucp: ..!{decvax,oliveb}!bunker!hcap!hnews!360!1.33!Jerry.Pickup
Internet: Jerry.Pickup@p33.f1.n360.z1.fidonet.orgJoe.Kennedy@p0.f10.n236.z1.fidonet.org (Joe Kennedy) (01/05/90)
Index Number: 6070
i have an ibm-pc.
yes the whole bible on disk!
i can send you floppy disks containing the bible in the regular mail.
all together it takes up about 2 million bytes or about 12 360k
floppies.
dont worry-no charge!
"buy the truth and sell it not"
just send me your address.
joe
--
Uucp: ..!{decvax,oliveb}!bunker!hcap!hnews!236!10.0!Joe.Kennedy
Internet: Joe.Kennedy@p0.f10.n236.z1.fidonet.orgStephen.White@f853.n681.z3.fidonet.org (Stephen White) (01/05/90)
Index Number: 6081 > I have trouble with a God who would permit his > a terrible death. I have trouble with a God who permits > I have trouble reconciling a merciful God with I dont have troubles. I think that the Bible, if true, is biased from the viewpoint of the writer. Back in those days they were rather keen on beating each other up! I would rather believe in the strength of the human spirit. Steve! The Child of a Lesser God! -- Uucp: ..!{decvax,oliveb}!bunker!hcap!hnews!3!681!853!Stephen.White Internet: Stephen.White@f853.n681.z3.fidonet.org
Stephen.White@f853.n681.z3.fidonet.org (Stephen White) (01/05/90)
Index Number: 6094 > After all, he loved his only son Jesus and look what > he allowed Him to go through. Do I really have anything > to complain about? > > -Jerry If this is the manner in which you choose to view this, then would you not say that Jesus has something to complain about? As far as I'm concerned, communication is important. If you are so stupid as to say "Oh I deserve this" and not voice complaint even though you would rather not be handicapped - then you DO deserve what you get. Perhaps your God is trying to teach you to complain? So by not complaining, you are judging God's wishes? I prefer to take the view that since there isnt any bloody thing I can do about it, why bother complaining - because then it wont be complaining - it would be whining. And perhaps I'm doing what your God wants you to do? And dont blast off a reply. Think about it first. Even though the message should be obvious. Steve! The Child of a Lesser God! -- Uucp: ..!{decvax,oliveb}!bunker!hcap!hnews!3!681!853!Stephen.White Internet: Stephen.White@f853.n681.z3.fidonet.org
Jerry.Pickup@p33.f1.n360.z1.fidonet.org (Jerry Pickup) (01/05/90)
Index Number: 6126
In a message to Jerry Pickup <27 Dec 89 00:40:00> Stephen White wrote:
SW> If this is the manner in which you choose to view this, then would
SW> you not say that Jesus has something to complain about?
Yes, I'd say Jesus had plenty to complain about. As I recall, he
never really came out and said "Why me?" He understood his
Father's will for his life and was submissive to it. He didn't
command a fireball from heaven to come down and destroy the men who
nailed him to the cross. He said "Father, forgive them. They know
not what they do."
SW> As far as I'm concerned, communication is important. If you are so
SW> stupid as to say "Oh I deserve this" and not voice complaint even
SW> though you would rather not be handicapped
SW> - then you DO deserve what you get.
I'm not a judge of who deserves what. If there was something I
could do that would take away my disability, I would do it. The
fact is I can't. Since I believe that God is in control of my life
and is omnipotent, many people want to know why I think he would
allow such suffering. I was trying to explain, with my example,
that I can not agree with the people who would say that God never
"allows" anyone to suffer or that the suffering is not under God's
control. I don't pretend to know his reasons, nor do I need to.
He is with me and he comforts me when I need it. He knows what he
is doing and I am satisfied to do what I can for myself and "ride
out the storm" waiting to see what he has in store.
SW> Perhaps your God is trying to teach you to complain?
I doubt it. Like you said, it would be whining not complaining.
SW> And dont blast off a reply. Think about it first. Even though the
SW> message should be obvious.
I didn't. I thought about it. I think you and I may be on
different thought waves and we may be misinterpreting each other's
messages.
-Jerry (Child of God)
--
Uucp: ..!{decvax,oliveb}!bunker!hcap!hnews!360!1.33!Jerry.Pickup
Internet: Jerry.Pickup@p33.f1.n360.z1.fidonet.orgDiane.Oliff@p0.f197.n253.z2.fidonet.org (Diane Oliff) (01/05/90)
Index Number: 6136
In a message to Peter Baker <12-14-89 05:23> Lana Berrington wrote:
LB*> I once had a friend who told me that developmentally
LB*> disabled people are the way they are because they sinned in
LB*> some way and were being punnished. If that isn't one of
LB*> the most off the wall statements I ever heard I dunno what
LB*> is!
Well, your friend could look at it like that or you could look at it like
this:
I have two physical abnormalities. One, an extra toe on my left foot, recurs
in most girls in my mother's family over the last hundred years (and
probably before but we don't have records for that). In our family, then, if
you have a group of us girls, people without eleven toes are pretty abnormal
and obviously got in some real deep sinning back then.
I was also born without any external ears. Looking back in the family
albums I'd say that on both sides (Mother's and Father's) my ancestors and
relatives have small crumpled-up ears where you can see them, so I guess
that's hereditary too. I've been told that it is unlikely that any children
I have would inherit the same condition I had - it certainly won't stop me
from having children if I can (that's another question and I will know some
more about that when we have the results of some tests back).
But in any case, I don't see it is anything to do with God. My normal
condition is to be like I am - I feel better to dress up a bit to look like
other people when I am out because they have a problem with me when I don't
- I don't have a problem with them looking how they do (I used to but I have
been helped a lot lately and have overcome it).
But to people like the one that told you that, I feel I want to get out all
my little differences and wave them in his face and yell BoogaBoogaBooga
from dark corners at him, because its not you that has any problem, but
your friend if he or she really believes that.
I *think* I can believe in God, because I have life and that is a miracle.
I'm not oppressed, I'm not shot at by the police, I'm not forced by others
into vice, I'm not having my world destroyed by a greedy man like the
Amazonian Indians, who are as disAbled as any of us without the slightest
chance of help.
But I don't think God sat up there and decided 'Diane's great grand-daddy
was a Bad Man so I'm going to pull her little ears off'. That's silly, and
whatever else God may be, I don't think silly is it.
Love and good things to you for 1990
Diane Oliff
--
Uucp: ..!{decvax,oliveb}!bunker!hcap!hnews!2!253!197.0!Diane.Oliff
Internet: Diane.Oliff@p0.f197.n253.z2.fidonet.orgDiane.Oliff@p0.f197.n253.z2.fidonet.org (Diane Oliff) (01/05/90)
Index Number: 6137
In a message to All <12-08-89 00:18> Joe Kennedy wrote:
JK*> HANDICAPPED AND SICK PEOPLE ARE NOT SICK DUE TO SIN,BUT RATHER BECAUSE
JK*> ITS GOD`S WILL THAT THEY BE THE WAY THEY ARE FOR THE TIME BEING.
No.
I don't think I can send any more about this, just that it is not true. I am
not a toy for some God to pull bits off. I am the only one of me I've got,
and I am like I am because that is me, and I am the total of all the people
that have been before me.
love to everyone...
goodnight
Diane Oliff
--
Uucp: ..!{decvax,oliveb}!bunker!hcap!hnews!2!253!197.0!Diane.Oliff
Internet: Diane.Oliff@p0.f197.n253.z2.fidonet.org34AEJ7D@CMUVM.BITNET (Bill Gorman) (01/08/90)
Index Number: 6162 Ed Arnold (era@era.ucar.edu) writes: >[...] >Postings by people of the ilk of "JK" also irk me to no end. I'd >rather read something informational or inspirational... >[...] >Seems to me this is what we have a moderator for. Bill, how about >putting the kabosh on these types of postings? >[...] Oh, come ON! Why is it a knee-jerk reaction to try to impose censorship on anything one doesn't happen to find sufficiently sugar-coated? Personally, I think we are all too adept at ignoring the "wide world" out there, which may be one reason the wide world ignores us.
Ron.Rothenberg@f460.n101.z1.fidonet.org (Ron Rothenberg) (01/12/90)
Index Number: 6201
BG> Amen to that! Religion is the first, foremost and most
BG> effective sop foisted upon the disABLED community by the
BG> non-disabled in an effort, sometimes consious, sometimes
BG> unconcious, to prevent the disABLED person(s) from asking
BG> embarassing questions about such things as their Civil Rights,
BG> jobs, proper medical care, etc., etc.
I don't know if that's all true. Religion is responsible for some of
the good that goes on in the world. When you consider the immense
amount of badness in the world, you can only imagine how bad it would
be without the elevation in goodness religion creates in some people.
I know religion is responsible for much misery, too, but I think if
there weren't religion we would invent some other way to wreak misery
on our fellow man.
Feeling optimistic,
-rsr-
P.S. Rabbi Hillel (I think) said, "Pray as if everything depended on
God. Act as if everything depended on you." This has always been my
philosophy.
... It is better to be rich and healthy than poor and sick-D. Barry's Mom
--
Uucp: ..!{decvax,oliveb}!bunker!hcap!hnews!101!460!Ron.Rothenberg
Internet: Ron.Rothenberg@f460.n101.z1.fidonet.orgStephen.White@f853.n681.z3.fidonet.org (Stephen White) (01/12/90)
Index Number: 6208 > control. I don't pretend to know his reasons, nor do I > need to. He is with me > and he comforts me when I need it. He knows what he is > doing and I am Oh good, someone that doesnt try and predict God, or to explain God, or to modify religion to satisfy what they want to do! > SW> Perhaps your God is trying to teach you to complain? > > I doubt it. Like you said, it would be whining not > complaining. I'd say whining was going on incessantly saying "Oh I'm handicapped, I cant do this, I cant do that" and ending up not doing anything. Complaint would be a validly put objection like "I'd prefer not to be handicapped" and getting on with your life. Perhaps God is trying to make strong willed people, in surmounting difficulties > > I didn't. I thought about it. I think you and I > may be on different > thought waves and we may be misinterpreting each other's Most probably! Steve! -- Uucp: ..!{decvax,oliveb}!bunker!hcap!hnews!3!681!853!Stephen.White Internet: Stephen.White@f853.n681.z3.fidonet.org