Ron.Rothenberg@f460.n101.z1.fidonet.org (Ron Rothenberg) (01/04/90)
Index Number: 6028
PG> I have a deafie friend who has helped me with sign a little
PG> bit. He recently told me that deafies do not respond well to
PG> people who try to use sign language but are not very good at
PG> it. I find that rather disgusting. Being accepted is a two-way
PG> street, folks! Comments? Pat
Are you sure this isn't the French we're talking about?
Actually most people respond well at the effort to speak their
language. Actually, I find most people grateful and amused at my
attempts to sign. I also think it's a generational thing. Older
people are unused to hearing people even considering sign language,
that they are invariably surprised and gladdened.
I have heard that too about some signers. I think it may be an
expression of anger, and a desire to cling to something that is
uniquely "theirs."
-rsr-
... Always forgive your enemies - nothing annoys them so much. - O. Wilde
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Uucp: ..!{decvax,oliveb}!bunker!hcap!hnews!101!460!Ron.Rothenberg
Internet: Ron.Rothenberg@f460.n101.z1.fidonet.orgJack.O'keeffe@f26.n129.z1.fidonet.org (Jack O'keeffe) (01/05/90)
Index Number: 6042
PG> I have a deafie friend who has helped me with sign a little
PG> bit. He recently told me that deafies do not respond well to
PG> people who try to use sign language but are not very good at
PG> it. I find that rather disgusting. Being accepted is a two-way
PG> street, folks! Comments? Pat
That is a generalization, Pat, and I don't believe one can make such
broad statements about "deafies" and more than they can about hearing
people. I have encountered Deaf who were quite patient with me and
my attempts to sign, which go only a bit past fingerspelling. On the
other hand, I've encountered Deaf Culture zealots who regard anyone
not fluent in ASL as some kind of extraterrestrial cretin. People
are people - it takes all kinds.
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Uucp: ..!{decvax,oliveb}!bunker!hcap!hnews!129!26!Jack.O'keeffe
Internet: Jack.O'keeffe@f26.n129.z1.fidonet.orgStephen.White@f853.n681.z3.fidonet.org (Stephen White) (01/05/90)
Index Number: 6079
PG> I have a deafie friend who has helped me with sign a little bit.
PG> He recently told me that deafies do not respond well to people
PG> who try to use sign language but are not very good at it. I find
PG> that rather disgusting. Being accepted is a two-way street,
PG> folks! Comments? Pat
It is like this in Australia with about half of the deafies
here.
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Uucp: ..!{decvax,oliveb}!bunker!hcap!hnews!3!681!853!Stephen.White
Internet: Stephen.White@f853.n681.z3.fidonet.orgPat.Goltz@f3.n300.z1.fidonet.org (Pat Goltz) (01/05/90)
Index Number: 6105
What you said about deafies being individuals makes perfect sense. My own
circle of acquaintances was too small to make a generalization. But I
should have paid attention to the attitude of those I know. The ones I
know personally have been very patient with me.
Pat
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Uucp: ..!{decvax,oliveb}!bunker!hcap!hnews!300!3!Pat.Goltz
Internet: Pat.Goltz@f3.n300.z1.fidonet.orgPat.Goltz@f3.n300.z1.fidonet.org (Pat Goltz) (01/05/90)
Index Number: 6109
It WAS my concern that too MANY deafies are impatient with us neophytes
at signing. An attitude CAN become prevalent. I think that deaf folks who
do not tolerate the honest attempts of the hearing to learn sign are
isolating themselves further from the mainstream and making it that much
more difficult to grant them equality in the workplace, etc.
Pat
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Uucp: ..!{decvax,oliveb}!bunker!hcap!hnews!300!3!Pat.Goltz
Internet: Pat.Goltz@f3.n300.z1.fidonet.orgDavid.Wetherow@p0.f5.n382.z1.fidonet.org (David Wetherow) (01/05/90)
Index Number: 6129
One of the best stories in this whole field is the book, "Everyone
There Spoke Sign Language", by Mary Ellen Groce, Harvard University
Press. Groce was an ethnologist who was doing research in Martha's
Vineyard, Massachusetts. Found that for about two hundred years, 25%
of the people on the island were deaf, and EVERYONE spoke sign
language. They didn't think that deafness was a handicap, just a
natural variation in the human condition, like brown or blue eyes.
"Those people weren't handicapped, they were just deaf." People had
same marital/social/economic/cultural status as everyone else.
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Uucp: ..!{decvax,oliveb}!bunker!hcap!hnews!382!5.0!David.Wetherow
Internet: David.Wetherow@p0.f5.n382.z1.fidonet.orgDiane.Oliff@p0.f197.n253.z2.fidonet.org (Diane Oliff) (01/05/90)
Index Number: 6131
You quoted a message about deaf people not responding well to amateur
attempts at signing..
We don't sign so much here in England anyway, but I would welcome any
and every attempt made by anyone to communicate.
I'm not so hot myself (and I can't follow American sign language) but
surely if someone makes the attempt, I'm not about to tell them to
disappear and not to bother.
May I take the opportunity to wish you all a very happy and prosperous
New year 1990, and may your lives grow the way you would like...
Diane Oliff
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Uucp: ..!{decvax,oliveb}!bunker!hcap!hnews!2!253!197.0!Diane.Oliff
Internet: Diane.Oliff@p0.f197.n253.z2.fidonet.orgDiane.Oliff@p0.f197.n253.z2.fidonet.org (Diane Oliff) (01/05/90)
Index Number: 6135
In a message to All <12-18-89 01:49> avram.r.vener wrote:
av*> Of course, nothing works ALL the time. Sometimes you get the
av*> impossibly, dense cretin who cannot understand that
av*> shouting in your ear just won't work.
I usually shout right back at them... kinda startles them into thinking
about what is going on!
Diane Oliff
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Uucp: ..!{decvax,oliveb}!bunker!hcap!hnews!2!253!197.0!Diane.Oliff
Internet: Diane.Oliff@p0.f197.n253.z2.fidonet.orgStephen.White@f853.n681.z3.fidonet.org (Stephen White) (01/12/90)
Index Number: 6205 > It WAS my concern that too MANY deafies are impatient with > us neophytes at > signing. An attitude CAN become prevalent. I think that > deaf folks who do not No argument here! I'm BORN deaf, and deafer than most of the mainstream deaf, and THEY get impatient with me, even though I've been signing for a short time, and bloody good for the length of time. One of the ones that DO bother, reckons it'll only be another year before I'm indistinguishable from the signers from birth. I notice that it is generally only the deaf that are concerned about other deaf, that bother to interact with the hearing world. They know that the future of deaf groups doesnt rely on growing in on itself. I'm using my other terminal program, so I guess this signoff will have to do! .-. . _ _ `-. +- ;-` || ;-` `-' `- `- `' `- (which is actually a part of a longer macro).. the rest of it is -. .-. .-. | .-. _ `-.. .`-..-..-. -'`-' `-'`-:`-'`-':-' -. . _' .-. ; .-. | .-.. ..-.+- .-. . : :.-.. .`-. -'`-'`-'' ``- ' `-: `-':-'`-'`-' _' ' which is rather irrelevant anyway! -- Uucp: ..!{decvax,oliveb}!bunker!hcap!hnews!3!681!853!Stephen.White Internet: Stephen.White@f853.n681.z3.fidonet.org
Laurie.Wilson@p0.f5.n119.z1.fidonet.org (Laurie Wilson) (01/12/90)
Index Number: 6221 > only the deaf that are concerned about other deaf, that > bother to interact with the hearing world. They know that > the future of deaf groups doesnt rely on growing in on > itself. Interesting reply... I have this similar problem,too. Although, I get along fine with other deafies, but most of the times they try to avoid me. The reason? Because they say I act too much like "Hearie". Heh, how's that!! I am not totally fluent with ASL, so they would snicker sometimes at my signing errors. I remember at one time at the convention where more than 1500 deaf people attended they all thought I was hearing, even though I signed. They were shocked and disbelieved at learning that I am profoundly deaf. Then later on, they'd whisper behind my back saying "She is stuck up. She thinks she is better than us." Oh well, who cares anyway. I still have some deaf friends who are very understanding and open minded about the way things are in the world. Also it is because we associate with both worlds- hearing and deaf. Those who don't by staying in their deaf world have prejudice problems. But then again, it is understandable, for they have been oppressed by the hearing majority for long time. Makes sense to you?? I still love both deaf and hearing people, no matter what they think of me. I am thankful for the way I am. Laurie -- Uucp: ..!{decvax,oliveb}!bunker!hcap!hnews!119!5.0!Laurie.Wilson Internet: Laurie.Wilson@p0.f5.n119.z1.fidonet.org
Pat.Goltz@f3.n300.z1.fidonet.org (Pat Goltz) (01/17/90)
Index Number: 6254
Well, I don't know how you did it, but that signoff will do just fine. I
saw some characters in there that I honestly don't think I have ever seen
before, and I'm wondering how you did it without blowing Opus sky high!
The thing is, there are those that want equal opportunity. In order to
have equal opportunity, you have to mainstream. Unfortunately,
mainstreaming places the major burden on the person with the disability.
The reason for that is really very simple: It is a nearly impossible task
for me to learn enough to compensate for all the potential disabilities,
no matter how much I may desire to, but it is far easier for the person
with the disability to compensate for his particular disability, no
matter how difficult that may seem. The deaf person who refuses to be
kind to persons who are trying to meet him halfway is just closing the
door on himself.
I personally have made some kind of effort to learn sign. My time is
short, and the amount of effort I have made does not satisfy ME, but
there is nothing I can do about that. For the amount of effort I have put
into it, my signing is phenomenal. The kid who has been helping me is
well aware of that. However, a casual deafie you meet on the street has
no idea how much time I have put into it, or how I feel about it; he only
knows that by HIS standards, I am not very good; ergo, I must not care
very much. Some people act accordingly.
Pat
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Uucp: ..!{decvax,oliveb}!bunker!hcap!hnews!300!3!Pat.Goltz
Internet: Pat.Goltz@f3.n300.z1.fidonet.orgAnn.Stalnaker@f14.n385.z1.fidonet.org (Ann Stalnaker) (01/17/90)
Index Number: 6261
Laurie, hope you don't mind me jumping in but I don't exactly blame
the hearing world for all of the attitude problems that so many of
the HI have. I, too, was raised in the hearing world (was not even
exposed to the HI world until a few years ago) and even though I knew
a few deaf people, it was most interesting to find out that most HI
people have a fear of not being able to understand what is being communicated
to them. They often get mad or impatient and thus crawl back into
their own little world. It's really very sad because there are a lot
of hearing people who are willing to break the communication barrier.
I think that's why I frown so much on ASL as I feel it's the easy way
out and feel that all HI individuals can lip read and speak along with
signing. I know...I know...I'm going to get some flack for this but
it's not impossible. It's true that not all are as adept as others
but it can be done. Should have started long time ago but at least
small children are being taught now.
I, too, have had other HI people tell me that I act more like a hearing
person than a deaf one but they don't seem to resent it, at least,
not the ones I've come in contact with in the South and East coast.
I've had many of them tell me that they learn a lot from me and you
can't imagine how that makes me feel. (Don't mean to brag but it's
a wonderful feeling.)
I just feel in order for ALL of us to educate the WORLD, we are going
to have to give a little bit more and I think in time the rewards will
far outweigh the past problems. Perhaps I'm wishing for the moon but
I've always tried to have a positive outlook even though I've had my
disappointments like everyone else, just don't let them get me down.
Perhaps we should move this discussion over to SilentTalk, eh? That
is if we ever get moving smoothly....
- Ann
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Uucp: ..!{decvax,oliveb}!bunker!hcap!hnews!385!14!Ann.Stalnaker
Internet: Ann.Stalnaker@f14.n385.z1.fidonet.orgAnn.Stalnaker@f14.n385.z1.fidonet.org (Ann Stalnaker) (01/17/90)
Index Number: 6289
Pat, I could not state this any better. You are absolutely right.
People should not be very judgmental, especially the deaf people who
do not try to meet someone else halfway. I've always felt it was our
place to make the other person comfortable and help meet them halfway.
People are not really being rude, they just don't understand or know
the full facts, and we should educate them without those of us who
are HI spurning them with attitude problems. It's well worth the effort
to do so in my opinion.
I feel in order for us to be accepted, attitudes are going to have
to change. Gosh...sure hope I'm making sense. I'm still half asleep
and should know better than to answer messages before I've had my
heart-pumping medication for the day. (grin)
Glad to see you back, Pat. Hope all is well with you.
- Ann
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Uucp: ..!{decvax,oliveb}!bunker!hcap!hnews!385!14!Ann.Stalnaker
Internet: Ann.Stalnaker@f14.n385.z1.fidonet.orgJack.O'keeffe.Of.129/26@f26.n129.z1.fidonet.org (Jack O'keeffe Of 129/26) (01/19/90)
Index Number: 6339
AS> People should not be very judgmental, especially the deaf
AS> people who do not try to meet someone else halfway.
This is one time I'll be judgemental, Ann, even tho I know better.
AS> People are not really being rude
The hell they are not! Maybe not intentionally, but rude nevertheless.
And I could make the case that thoughtless unintentional rudeness is
worse than purposeful deliberate rudeness. It can do more harm, and
the perpetraitor doesn't even realize what he is doing.
No other culture, with the possible exception of the French, is so
intolerant and unforgiving of "outsiders" sincerely trying to reach
out to them in their own language as the Deaf culture. I think the
Deaf culture is probably worse than the French. Maybe this is what
people really mean when they refer to Deaf and D U M B. The label
sorta fits, doesn't it :-)
AS> we should educate them without those of us who are HI
AS> spurning them with attitude problems. It's well worth the
AS> effort to do so in my opinion.
I would like to believe this was a possibility, Ann. But is it?
Realistically? I find it hard to believe they will ever change
until the last Deaf school is closed, paved over with concrete,
and converted into a parking lot.
Of course, this is terribly unfair. I know some truly beautiful
people who are part of Deaf culture. Its just that there are
more than a few with the attitude problem that gives the entire
culture - and all of us - an undeserved bad rep.
Jack.
... Huh?
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Uucp: ..!{decvax,oliveb}!bunker!hcap!hnews!129!26!Jack.O'keeffe.Of.129/26
Internet: Jack.O'keeffe.Of.129/26@f26.n129.z1.fidonet.orgLaurie.Wilson@p0.f5.n119.z1.fidonet.org (Laurie Wilson) (02/02/90)
Index Number: 6571 > > Why do you consider yourself as grouped with the hearing > people? > Sorry if I get mildly offensive, but there was someone Oh not at all...I am not offended. Well, I am not sure if I considered myself as 100% part of the hearing community because I do socialize with the deaf community, too. So, I'll say I don't really belong to either group, but just in the middle. I love both worlds. However, I communiicate even better with hearing poeple than I do with most deaf. A reason for this is that those certain deaf persons are totally Deaf who only use ASL, so they are not comfortable with me. But there are others who do well in both languages and accept me for what I am. > wanker, she > always emphasized how much better the hearing community > was. I am not > implying that you are a wanker, but would you be similar? Ha, ha! a wanker? what an odd term! U mean to say that if I spend more time with the hearing friends, through no fault of mine due to a very small deaf community and even only four of us deaf students at college, that makes me a wanker? Well, well... maybe > > It's even gotten so I am not even sure if you are deaf > or not! I > recall vaguely that you said that you were profoundly deaf.. Yep, I am totally deaf. If I do sound like "hearie", that's because of my upbringing which is hard for me to get rid. However, to the hearing people, I am "deafie", so what am I then?? To me, I am just Laurie in the middle world. > > See? Why the hell cant you learn ASL and join in with > them? > Yes, I have learned ASL, but still I have some ways to go. For example, I am learning to think in ASL (conceptual) which isn't easy! Right now, this deaf community I mentioned several times to you are what you would call the "jerks". The deaf community in Bay Area is much more open mind and more friendly, so that is where I sometimes socialize with them but here in Chico? no, I feel out of place with them here. Well, like I have said before, I have nothing against either hearing or deaf community but I am cynical sometimes for several reasons. In hearing world, they feel sorry for HI people. And in deaf world, they are wary and cynical about the hearing's motives concerning the deaf community. I wonder if you have read "When the Mind Hears" by Harlan Lane? It is an excellent book, a deaf history. Laurie -- Uucp: ..!{decvax,oliveb}!bunker!hcap!hnews!119!5.0!Laurie.Wilson Internet: Laurie.Wilson@p0.f5.n119.z1.fidonet.org
Laurie.Wilson@p0.f5.n119.z1.fidonet.org (Laurie Wilson) (02/13/90)
Index Number: 6729 > Hi Laurie I don't mean to butt in on your conversation but > you use the term HI? What does HI mean as I have never > heard of it before. Any help would be much appreciated. > Thanks in advance. HI is "hearing impaired". Funny, it is the term that I picked up from Jack O'Keefe and Ann Stakner. I had not heard of this "HI" either but after seeing HI few times in their posts, I finally figured it out! Smile, Laurie -- Uucp: ..!{decvax,oliveb}!bunker!hcap!hnews!119!5.0!Laurie.Wilson Internet: Laurie.Wilson@p0.f5.n119.z1.fidonet.org
Ron.Rothenberg@f460.n101.z1.fidonet.org (Ron Rothenberg) (02/23/90)
Index Number: 6903
BD> That's the *only* reason for denying you insurance? I
BD> don't believe you can be refused health insurance in Georgia
BD> because you have been treated for depression. There may be a
BD> pre-existing condition clause or time rider, but for not more
Yup, that's the case. First I tried to get private disability and
health insurance - both were declined due to treatment for depression.
Then I tried a group policy for R.E. brokers. They declined me for
disability, I'm waiting to hear about Major Medical. I also just
applied to a company that specializes in short-term major-medical. I'll
let you know what happens.
Massachusetts isn't half as enlightened as Georgia in terms of
insurance laws. The insurance companies here insure that Mass. has the
best legislature that money can buy.
-rsr-
... We are all in this together -- by ourselves. - Lily Tomlin
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Uucp: ..!{decvax,oliveb}!bunker!hcap!hnews!101!460!Ron.Rothenberg
Internet: Ron.Rothenberg@f460.n101.z1.fidonet.org