[misc.handicap] Advertisement?

Dick.Gorgens@f327.n322.z1.fidonet.org (Dick Gorgens) (02/02/90)

Index Number: 6546

As the Chairman/CEO of a company that develops products for the disABLED 
community, I take a little issue as well to not "advertising" on these 
conferences.  Unlike the "commercial" arena, the H/C adaptive access and 
augmentative communications area is not a money maker (we lost .5 Mil last 
year but managed to help a lot of people "mainstream" and communicate, and 
that feels "good".  It is tough to get the product word out to the people who 
can really benefit from these developments.  I would like to see the ban on 
advertising lifted for this conference.  Respectfully, Dick Gorgens
Chairman/CEO of Microsystems Software, Inc.

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Stu.Turk@f26.n129.z1.fidonet.org (Stu Turk) (02/02/90)

Index Number: 6558

 DG> and communicate, and that feels "good".  It is tough to get the 
 DG> product word out to the people who can really benefit from these 
 DG> developments.  I would like to see the ban on advertising lifted for 
 DG> this conference.  Respectfully, Dick Gorgens
   =
   There is no bain on product announcement and product discription type  
msg's.  Only against crass commercial ads.
   Stu Turk, ABLED Echo co-moderator

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Vixen.*@f11.n203.z1.fidonet.org (Vixen *) (02/02/90)

Index Number: 6574

Hi,

Well, speaking for myself, as a so called disabled person and
participant in this echo, I don't mind so much, hearing about a new
product that might be helpful to some of us or help improve the quality
of our lives. In fact, many of us (the disABLED here) bring certain
products to each others attention.

Speaking for myself, what I resent is when the add is a million lines
long, says buy, buy buy and your life will be so much better and buy it
from us for only $9000.00!!!!!!! We have been working to make your life
easier, so buy this product from us!

Afterall, not many of us in this echo have access to very large sums of
money and the agencies many of us are connected to are not likely to
pay such huge sums either! Hell, I can't even get a used Vidtext
machine! Nevermind this stuff that costs $3,000.00 to $9000.00

My other concern is that if the moderators allow too much sales
promotion in here, ABLED may turn into nothing more than a sales
catalogue.

Keepin' the faith!

.                       Vixen

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griesel@umn-cs.CS.UMN.EDU (Curtis W. Griesel) (02/04/90)

Index Number: 6592

I'm still in favor of ads here.  Thought I'd respond to some of the
arguments that have been made against them:

>Speaking for myself, what I resent is when the add is a million lines
>long

Most news reading software has a facility to move to the next
article when you're sick of the one you're reading.  In rn it's the
"n" key.

>says buy, buy buy and your life will be so much better and buy it
>from us for only $9000.00!!!!!!! We have been working to make your life
>easier, so buy this product from us!

If you don't like a particular topic or sender, you can place the
topic or sender in a "kill" file.  Then you don't have to hear from
that sender or about that topic again.  Besides, anything posted
here has to be taken with a healthy dose of skepticism.

If people are still uncomfortable with ads here, how about a new
group, misc.handicap.newprod, where we could have free exchange of
new product information?  However, I STILL haven't heard how one
defines when a posting is an advertisement and when it's not.  I
guess we could let the moderator of misc.handicap decide for that
group, and not have any restrictions for misc.handicap.newprod.

I'm just afraid I'm going to miss some good information if we become too
restrictive.

-Curt
-- 
Curtis Griesel                                        griesel@umn-cs.cs.umn.edu
                      Coordinator of Computer Access
Microcomputer, Workstation and Network Center; U of Minnesota, Minneapolis, USA
   "Disability is not the problem, peoples' attitude toward the disabled is."

mattioli@took.dec.com (John R. Mattioli) (02/09/90)

Index Number: 6613

In article <9960@bunker.UUCP>, Vixen.*@f11.n203.z1.fidonet.org (Vixen *) writes...
>
>My other concern is that if the moderators allow too much sales
>promotion in here, ABLED may turn into nothing more than a sales
>catalogue.
> 

I think Vixen has just described one of my major concerns very
clearly.  I'm all for product descriptions, I do it all the time.
It's the only way for the word to spread about both good products
and bad products.  But there's a big difference between me
describing (or reviewing) a product and somebody posting an
advertisement for a product.  Basicly, I post oppinions which,
though biased by my experiences and my personal feelings, attempt
to look at both sides of the product equally.  For example, I think
the Arkenstone reader is great for the price but I'm very worried
about the company behind it.  You'll never read a statement like
that in an advertisement. The issue here is that the product be
described with a certain amount of objectivity. I feel that this
would be very difficult for a product's manufacturer or seller to
do (although not impossible).

I feel that advertisements tend to sensor the facts more then
product reviews tend to leave out the facts.  For example,
Arkenstone adds tend to stress the advantage of using all off the
shelf hardware and software.  I do see an advantage to this and I
think it's great.  But those adds tend not to say that a good
portion of the Kurzweil is standard also.  Xerox uses the KPR
software in some of its high-end office ocr equipment. The scanner
is a standard device. The voice synth is (basically) a DECtalk (ok
so that one's not exactly off the shelf).

Of course there is a very fine line between advertisements and
objective product reviews.  It is a moderators job to judge the
difference.  I don't find lots of advertisements posted here, but
some of them just tend to rub me the wrong way. For example, I have
received via u.s. postal service advertisements from certain
newsgroup participants.  This "junk mail" was not solicited by me
and it annoyed me because it seemed to be an attempt to sneak
around the rules of the network.  I don't believe that the net
should be used for advertisement and I don't believe advertisers
should build mailing lists from addresses posted on the net.

	So why not put this to a vote:

	1. Advertising is ok.

	2. Advertising is not ok.

	3. One product announcement is ok.

None of these options should preclude the posting of objective
product reviews.

	My vote is 3.
-----------------------------------------------------------------
					John Mattioli
	Most improved skier (american blind skiers association 1989)
					and humble to!

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Chita.Cazares@f114.n202.z1.fidonet.org (Chita Cazares) (02/13/90)

Index Number: 6722

I really agree: advertisements are a good thing to have on this echo. 
The disAbled community is very expensive to reach through traditional 
means and marketing costs are about 50% of the retail price of 
anything. Any way we can lower the barriers to this market, I'm in 
favor. It's bad enough that the disAbled are often ignored, we 
shouldn't throw even more obstacles in front of a company who tries to 
serve them.
 
The basic function of advertisement is INFORMATION. Sharing information 
is a major function of this echo, too, isn't it?

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Vixen.*@f11.n203.z1.fidonet.org (Vixen *) (02/13/90)

Index Number: 6737

Hi,

I must tell you that I take exception with your "quoting" my
statements about what type of advertisements I would find offensve
or in bad taste in here as "reasons for no advertisements!" I think
most here know it was plain enough that I resented the "buy, buy,
buy type of advertisement! I did not say that I necessarily
resented or did not want any advertising.

While it is true enough that we can hit our Next key and skip over
such messages, which I often do, we might then also say let people
write whatever they want in here because we can all just hit our
next key.

However, if you want a real reason as to what is wrong, if anything
with commercial advertising in this echo, it is this, most
companies "pay for their own ads!" but when a company advertises
through this echo "we" pay for their advertising! We are the ones
who pay the nightly long distance phonebills to push their
advertisments so "they" can make their profit. I would consider
this a very valid reason for resenting companies or their
representatives placing commercial ads here! Even if we put a kill
on them so we don't see them on our local systems, we are still
paying to ship them around. That doesn't seem right somehow.

As I said once before, I don't mind hearing of things that might be
helpful and useful to some of us here in ABLED, but the one thing I
have never seen lack of is access to information and products for
all kinds of things just through exchange of information between
the participants here in ABLED. However, since you asked for a
reason to object to commercial advertising here, I submit the above
paragraph.

Keepin' the faith!

.                              Vixen

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Jerry.Pickup@p33.f1.n360.z1.fidonet.org (Jerry Pickup) (02/23/90)

Index Number: 6911

In a message to All <09 Feb 90  1:56:00> John R. Mattioli wrote:

 JR>        So why not put this to a vote:

 JR>        1. Advertising is ok.

 JR>        2. Advertising is not ok.

 JR>        3. One product announcement is ok.

I think 3 would be fair.  Like other posts I've read, I think
product information and "advertising" are two different things and
I'm all for product information.

                                  -Jerry

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Greg.See-Kee@p0.f404.n714.z3.fidonet.org (Greg See-Kee) (03/02/90)

Index Number: 7029

 JP> Mattioli wrote: 
 JR>>        So why not put this to a vote:
 JP> 
 JR>>        1. Advertising is ok.
 JP> 
 JR>>        2. Advertising is not ok.
 JP> 
 JR>>        3. One product announcement is ok.
 JP> 
 JP>      I think 3 would be fair.

I've watched so many worthwhile products and services go out of
business, because the potential customers were unaware.

As I read it, 3. is a PRESS RELEASE.  Many advertisements are
disguised as press releases.  I would rather see endorsements
from endusers like you and me.

So I propose:

        4. Unsolicited endorsements are ok.

        5. Solicited endorsements are ok.

Many providers of goods and services could enclose "Reply-paid
Cards/ Envelopes", so that these endorsements could be collected.

Then with skillful marketing/ public relations, we could see
these endorsements.

In Australia, many of our suppliers are in fact our own self-help
associations.  With good marketing / public relations, there is
no need for advertising, no need for the costs of advertising.

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Rich.Harper@f419.n104.z1.fidonet.org (Rich Harper) (03/03/90)

Index Number: 7063

        I am an echo moderator, and would tell you what Fido considers ok.

        1.)  No advertising is allowed in the echos.  But if you know of a 
product or service that is good, you are allowed to mention it as long as 
you are not the one selling the product.  That is unless there is a value of 
the product such as a discount for the users of the echo.

        2.)  If you write or create a program that will be of use to the 
echo users, send a copy to the echo moderator and if he thinks it is good, 
then he can mention it.

        These two rules are used to protect the user of the echo from fraud 
and what have you by people that will only get into an echo to make money 
from it.  I have only seen one person allowed to more or less do anything 
with a commercial program, and that was in Blink Talk.  He sells the 
Arkenstone reader, which is a well known product here, and he got the 
company to make a discount or give a scanner with each reader sold.  So the 
moderator allowed him to mention his board where you could get the 
information by asking for it.  That is as close to advertising as I have 
seen in the 3 + years I have been on the echos.

        <<Rich>>  
 

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