Dick.Gorgens@f327.n322.z1.fidonet.org (Dick Gorgens) (02/02/90)
Index Number: 6546 As the Chairman/CEO of a company that develops products for the disABLED community, I take a little issue as well to not "advertising" on these conferences. Unlike the "commercial" arena, the H/C adaptive access and augmentative communications area is not a money maker (we lost .5 Mil last year but managed to help a lot of people "mainstream" and communicate, and that feels "good". It is tough to get the product word out to the people who can really benefit from these developments. I would like to see the ban on advertising lifted for this conference. Respectfully, Dick Gorgens Chairman/CEO of Microsystems Software, Inc. -- Uucp: ..!{decvax,oliveb}!bunker!hcap!hnews!322!327!Dick.Gorgens Internet: Dick.Gorgens@f327.n322.z1.fidonet.org
Stu.Turk@f26.n129.z1.fidonet.org (Stu Turk) (02/02/90)
Index Number: 6558 DG> and communicate, and that feels "good". It is tough to get the DG> product word out to the people who can really benefit from these DG> developments. I would like to see the ban on advertising lifted for DG> this conference. Respectfully, Dick Gorgens = There is no bain on product announcement and product discription type msg's. Only against crass commercial ads. Stu Turk, ABLED Echo co-moderator -- Uucp: ..!{decvax,oliveb}!bunker!hcap!hnews!129!26!Stu.Turk Internet: Stu.Turk@f26.n129.z1.fidonet.org
Vixen.*@f11.n203.z1.fidonet.org (Vixen *) (02/02/90)
Index Number: 6574 Hi, Well, speaking for myself, as a so called disabled person and participant in this echo, I don't mind so much, hearing about a new product that might be helpful to some of us or help improve the quality of our lives. In fact, many of us (the disABLED here) bring certain products to each others attention. Speaking for myself, what I resent is when the add is a million lines long, says buy, buy buy and your life will be so much better and buy it from us for only $9000.00!!!!!!! We have been working to make your life easier, so buy this product from us! Afterall, not many of us in this echo have access to very large sums of money and the agencies many of us are connected to are not likely to pay such huge sums either! Hell, I can't even get a used Vidtext machine! Nevermind this stuff that costs $3,000.00 to $9000.00 My other concern is that if the moderators allow too much sales promotion in here, ABLED may turn into nothing more than a sales catalogue. Keepin' the faith! . Vixen -- Uucp: ..!{decvax,oliveb}!bunker!hcap!hnews!203!11!Vixen.* Internet: Vixen.*@f11.n203.z1.fidonet.org
griesel@umn-cs.CS.UMN.EDU (Curtis W. Griesel) (02/04/90)
Index Number: 6592 I'm still in favor of ads here. Thought I'd respond to some of the arguments that have been made against them: >Speaking for myself, what I resent is when the add is a million lines >long Most news reading software has a facility to move to the next article when you're sick of the one you're reading. In rn it's the "n" key. >says buy, buy buy and your life will be so much better and buy it >from us for only $9000.00!!!!!!! We have been working to make your life >easier, so buy this product from us! If you don't like a particular topic or sender, you can place the topic or sender in a "kill" file. Then you don't have to hear from that sender or about that topic again. Besides, anything posted here has to be taken with a healthy dose of skepticism. If people are still uncomfortable with ads here, how about a new group, misc.handicap.newprod, where we could have free exchange of new product information? However, I STILL haven't heard how one defines when a posting is an advertisement and when it's not. I guess we could let the moderator of misc.handicap decide for that group, and not have any restrictions for misc.handicap.newprod. I'm just afraid I'm going to miss some good information if we become too restrictive. -Curt -- Curtis Griesel griesel@umn-cs.cs.umn.edu Coordinator of Computer Access Microcomputer, Workstation and Network Center; U of Minnesota, Minneapolis, USA "Disability is not the problem, peoples' attitude toward the disabled is."
mattioli@took.dec.com (John R. Mattioli) (02/09/90)
Index Number: 6613 In article <9960@bunker.UUCP>, Vixen.*@f11.n203.z1.fidonet.org (Vixen *) writes... > >My other concern is that if the moderators allow too much sales >promotion in here, ABLED may turn into nothing more than a sales >catalogue. > I think Vixen has just described one of my major concerns very clearly. I'm all for product descriptions, I do it all the time. It's the only way for the word to spread about both good products and bad products. But there's a big difference between me describing (or reviewing) a product and somebody posting an advertisement for a product. Basicly, I post oppinions which, though biased by my experiences and my personal feelings, attempt to look at both sides of the product equally. For example, I think the Arkenstone reader is great for the price but I'm very worried about the company behind it. You'll never read a statement like that in an advertisement. The issue here is that the product be described with a certain amount of objectivity. I feel that this would be very difficult for a product's manufacturer or seller to do (although not impossible). I feel that advertisements tend to sensor the facts more then product reviews tend to leave out the facts. For example, Arkenstone adds tend to stress the advantage of using all off the shelf hardware and software. I do see an advantage to this and I think it's great. But those adds tend not to say that a good portion of the Kurzweil is standard also. Xerox uses the KPR software in some of its high-end office ocr equipment. The scanner is a standard device. The voice synth is (basically) a DECtalk (ok so that one's not exactly off the shelf). Of course there is a very fine line between advertisements and objective product reviews. It is a moderators job to judge the difference. I don't find lots of advertisements posted here, but some of them just tend to rub me the wrong way. For example, I have received via u.s. postal service advertisements from certain newsgroup participants. This "junk mail" was not solicited by me and it annoyed me because it seemed to be an attempt to sneak around the rules of the network. I don't believe that the net should be used for advertisement and I don't believe advertisers should build mailing lists from addresses posted on the net. So why not put this to a vote: 1. Advertising is ok. 2. Advertising is not ok. 3. One product announcement is ok. None of these options should preclude the posting of objective product reviews. My vote is 3. ----------------------------------------------------------------- John Mattioli Most improved skier (american blind skiers association 1989) and humble to! (DEC E-NET) TOOK::MATTIOLI (UUCP) {decvax, ucbvax, allegra}!decwrl!TOOK.dec.com!MATTIOLI (ARPA) MATTIOLI@TOOK.dec.com MATTIOLI%TOOK.dec.com@decwrl.dec.com (US MAIL) John Mattioli 550 King St. LKG2-2/BB9 Littleton, Ma. 01460
Chita.Cazares@f114.n202.z1.fidonet.org (Chita Cazares) (02/13/90)
Index Number: 6722 I really agree: advertisements are a good thing to have on this echo. The disAbled community is very expensive to reach through traditional means and marketing costs are about 50% of the retail price of anything. Any way we can lower the barriers to this market, I'm in favor. It's bad enough that the disAbled are often ignored, we shouldn't throw even more obstacles in front of a company who tries to serve them. The basic function of advertisement is INFORMATION. Sharing information is a major function of this echo, too, isn't it? -- Uucp: ..!{decvax,oliveb}!bunker!hcap!hnews!202!114!Chita.Cazares Internet: Chita.Cazares@f114.n202.z1.fidonet.org
Vixen.*@f11.n203.z1.fidonet.org (Vixen *) (02/13/90)
Index Number: 6737 Hi, I must tell you that I take exception with your "quoting" my statements about what type of advertisements I would find offensve or in bad taste in here as "reasons for no advertisements!" I think most here know it was plain enough that I resented the "buy, buy, buy type of advertisement! I did not say that I necessarily resented or did not want any advertising. While it is true enough that we can hit our Next key and skip over such messages, which I often do, we might then also say let people write whatever they want in here because we can all just hit our next key. However, if you want a real reason as to what is wrong, if anything with commercial advertising in this echo, it is this, most companies "pay for their own ads!" but when a company advertises through this echo "we" pay for their advertising! We are the ones who pay the nightly long distance phonebills to push their advertisments so "they" can make their profit. I would consider this a very valid reason for resenting companies or their representatives placing commercial ads here! Even if we put a kill on them so we don't see them on our local systems, we are still paying to ship them around. That doesn't seem right somehow. As I said once before, I don't mind hearing of things that might be helpful and useful to some of us here in ABLED, but the one thing I have never seen lack of is access to information and products for all kinds of things just through exchange of information between the participants here in ABLED. However, since you asked for a reason to object to commercial advertising here, I submit the above paragraph. Keepin' the faith! . Vixen -- Uucp: ..!{decvax,oliveb}!bunker!hcap!hnews!203!11!Vixen.* Internet: Vixen.*@f11.n203.z1.fidonet.org
Jerry.Pickup@p33.f1.n360.z1.fidonet.org (Jerry Pickup) (02/23/90)
Index Number: 6911 In a message to All <09 Feb 90 1:56:00> John R. Mattioli wrote: JR> So why not put this to a vote: JR> 1. Advertising is ok. JR> 2. Advertising is not ok. JR> 3. One product announcement is ok. I think 3 would be fair. Like other posts I've read, I think product information and "advertising" are two different things and I'm all for product information. -Jerry -- Uucp: ..!{decvax,oliveb}!bunker!hcap!hnews!360!1.33!Jerry.Pickup Internet: Jerry.Pickup@p33.f1.n360.z1.fidonet.org
Greg.See-Kee@p0.f404.n714.z3.fidonet.org (Greg See-Kee) (03/02/90)
Index Number: 7029 JP> Mattioli wrote: JR>> So why not put this to a vote: JP> JR>> 1. Advertising is ok. JP> JR>> 2. Advertising is not ok. JP> JR>> 3. One product announcement is ok. JP> JP> I think 3 would be fair. I've watched so many worthwhile products and services go out of business, because the potential customers were unaware. As I read it, 3. is a PRESS RELEASE. Many advertisements are disguised as press releases. I would rather see endorsements from endusers like you and me. So I propose: 4. Unsolicited endorsements are ok. 5. Solicited endorsements are ok. Many providers of goods and services could enclose "Reply-paid Cards/ Envelopes", so that these endorsements could be collected. Then with skillful marketing/ public relations, we could see these endorsements. In Australia, many of our suppliers are in fact our own self-help associations. With good marketing / public relations, there is no need for advertising, no need for the costs of advertising. -- Uucp: ..!{decvax,oliveb}!bunker!hcap!hnews!3!714!404.0!Greg.See-Kee Internet: Greg.See-Kee@p0.f404.n714.z3.fidonet.org
Rich.Harper@f419.n104.z1.fidonet.org (Rich Harper) (03/03/90)
Index Number: 7063 I am an echo moderator, and would tell you what Fido considers ok. 1.) No advertising is allowed in the echos. But if you know of a product or service that is good, you are allowed to mention it as long as you are not the one selling the product. That is unless there is a value of the product such as a discount for the users of the echo. 2.) If you write or create a program that will be of use to the echo users, send a copy to the echo moderator and if he thinks it is good, then he can mention it. These two rules are used to protect the user of the echo from fraud and what have you by people that will only get into an echo to make money from it. I have only seen one person allowed to more or less do anything with a commercial program, and that was in Blink Talk. He sells the Arkenstone reader, which is a well known product here, and he got the company to make a discount or give a scanner with each reader sold. So the moderator allowed him to mention his board where you could get the information by asking for it. That is as close to advertising as I have seen in the 3 + years I have been on the echos. <<Rich>> -- Uucp: ..!{decvax,oliveb}!bunker!hcap!hnews!104!419!Rich.Harper Internet: Rich.Harper@f419.n104.z1.fidonet.org