Pat.Goltz@f3.n300.z1.fidonet.org (Pat Goltz) (02/22/90)
Index Number: 6896
Hi. We were discussing teaching deaf kids to speak awhile back. You
said that lots of kids can't talk well no matter how hard they try.
I admit this is a problem. One guy I know really got turned off by
people forcing him to try to learn to speak when he was little.
Unfortunately, he wants to go into aerospace engineering, but that
industry is heavily built on the idea of doing things by committee,
and communication is essential. They will probably be real closed to
anybody who can't talk to them, and not be willing to pay for an
interpreter. Unless he's unusually persistent, he will get locked out.
Even with an interpreter, it will be tough sledding.
I think an honest effort should be made to teach deaf kids to speak.
Admittedly, it will take awhile before people really know for sure
whether a given kid is going to be able to do it, and I think they
should level with the kid and tell him that they don't really know
whether it will do any good or not, but that we have to try. At the
same time, educational efforts aimed at other folks to be willing to
accept deaf people who can't speak, and to be able to communicate in
sign somewhat should be undertaken. Someone here recently asked why
TV programs should have an interpreter instead of captions. I can
think of two reasons. One is that sign is more natural for many deaf
folks, and the interpreters are likely to be more accurate than the
captions. But the other is so that hearies can learn sign! I would
gladly watch the interpreter intently during a TV program to learn
all the sign I could. Years ago when I attended a church that had an
interpreter, I ALWAYS sat among the deaf people so I could learn sign.
i learned a lot that way. Kids could learn sign this way, and people in
general could come to accept deaf folks better that way if interpreting
were part of their world. I think both sides have to make much more of
an effort than they are doing now. For deaf folks, that means trying to
learn to speak as long as it isn't shoved down their throats. For the
hearing, it means trying to learn sign. We're talking about building
bridges here, and part of the responsibility lies with the person with
the difficulty, because a person like me can only learn so much, and
there are an awful lot of different conditions to learn about!
Deaf folks can't hear themselves, speak, but they can feel their
vocal cords vibrate, and they can feel the way their mouths shape
themselves. You and I agree on one thing: deaf kids should never be
forced. But a lot of effort should be put into giving them incentive.
Teachers need to rethink their attitudes, because there are some really
bad ones floating around. I know that incentive is the ONLY way, because
you can lead a horse to water, but you can't make him drink!
Pat
--
Uucp: ..!{decvax,oliveb}!bunker!hcap!hnews!300!3!Pat.Goltz
Internet: Pat.Goltz@f3.n300.z1.fidonet.orgLaurie.Wilson@p0.f5.n119.z1.fidonet.org (Laurie Wilson) (02/24/90)
Index Number: 6939 > to learn to speak when he was little. Unfortunately, he > wants to go into aerospace engineering, but that industry > is heavily built on the idea of doing things by committee, > and communication is essential. They will probably be real > closed to anybody who can't talk to them, and not be willing > to pay for an interpreter. Unless he's unusually persistent, > he will get locked out. Even with an interpreter, it will > be tough sledding. Yes, your friend will need to be very persistent to get a job in aerospace. There is a civil rights law that will support his rights to have an interpreter provided to him when needed, such as in committee. I am sure there are ways where an employer and your friend can discuss and meet on an agreeable terms. Unfortunately, at first, he will have to try harder to show them that he can do well despite his hearing impairment and lack of speech. If he can write well, then it shouldn't be much of a problem. A friend of mine once told me of a new device (i am not sure of what it is called, but maybe Jack or Ron can tell you since they are whiz guys...grin) that it is sort of voice transmitter into a printer on a screen. It is a small size--same as a pager. So, it will fit nicely on his hand, and he can read the device while someone speaks to him. I will ask my friend for more details about it and get back to you. > accept deaf people who can't speak, and to be able to communicate > in sign somewhat should be undertaken. Someone here recently > asked why TV programs should have an interpreter instead > of captions. I can think of two reasons. One is that sign > is more natural for many deaf folks, and the interpreters > are likely to be more accurate than the captions. But the > other is so that hearies can learn sign! I would gladly > watch the interpreter intently during a TV program to learn Yes, I like to watch interpreters on TV, too. But there are several reasons why more people prefer the closed captioned. For one, there are more HI than deaf people who don't know sign language. Secondly, the TV screens that most of us have are too small for us to see the interpreting and lip movements. I usually read both lips and signing at the same time, so it is difficult for me to read the interpreters lips on TV. That is why I prefer the closed captioned. Besides, some interpreters on TV are not always that clear (or good). What I mean by that is some signs from different regions of US have accents (similar to dialects of voices). > all the sign I could. Years ago when I attended a church > that had an interpreter, I ALWAYS sat among the deaf people > so I could learn sign. i learned a lot that way. Kids could > learn sign this way, and people in general could come to Yeah, I wish more people are more like you with such an eagerness to learn sign language in any possible way. Unfortunately, some believe that learning to sign is easier than learning other foriegn language, when they first enrol in sign language. It is not so, for it is just like any other language and that it takes a lot of motivations and hard work to learn it. In fact, to become a certified interpreter requires average 8 years of being fluent in sign language!! It is of the reasons why they charge high rate per hour. And they deserve every bit of it for their long years of hard work! I agree the world would be much better for everyone if we all are willing to meet each other halfway! Even though it is unfair, we the disabled have to be the ones who have to make efforts to bring more awareness to the abled society. Otherwise, they would continue to hide us from their eyes and take their world and life for granted. > vocal cords vibrate, and they can feel the way their mouths > shape themselves. You and I agree on one thing: deaf kids > should never be forced. But a lot of effort should be put > into giving them incentive. Teachers need to rethink their yes, we can feel our voice, but we have no idea how we sound to others. I am soft spoken. Sometimes, they asked me to speak louder, but I would shout not realizing it was too loud. (grin) Well, i gotta go. Nice to hear from you again. Talk to you later. Laurie -- Uucp: ..!{decvax,oliveb}!bunker!hcap!hnews!119!5.0!Laurie.Wilson Internet: Laurie.Wilson@p0.f5.n119.z1.fidonet.org
Jack.O'keeffe@f26.n129.z1.fidonet.org (Jack O'keeffe) (02/27/90)
Index Number: 6965
LW> Yes, I like to watch interpreters on TV, too. But there are
LW> several reasons why more people prefer the closed captioned.
LW> For one, there are more HI than deaf people who don't know sign
LW> language. Secondly, the TV screens that most of us have are too
LW> small for us to see the interpreting and lip movements. I
LW> usually read both lips and signing at the same time, so it is
LW> difficult for me to read the interpreters lips on TV.
Laurie, I'm no expert when it comes to sign. But I'm trying to
learn and I have a most difficult time with signers on TV. Even
the same people that I can read fairly well in person are tough
on TV. Something about that little vignette on the screen kills
all the face expression, and face expression conveys a lot of the
information in signing. I think the TV camerapeople need to develop
a better way of showing sign.
I really prefer captions, but I'm trying to learn sign .
Jack.
... HI-HoH Silver, Awayyyyy!
--
Uucp: ..!{decvax,oliveb}!bunker!hcap!hnews!129!26!Jack.O'keeffe
Internet: Jack.O'keeffe@f26.n129.z1.fidonet.orgPat.Goltz@f3.n300.z1.fidonet.org (Pat Goltz) (02/27/90)
Index Number: 6973
I'll give you a longer answer later, but I wanted to comment on the ease
of learning sign language. I see sign language as harder for most hearing
folks to learn simply because it is very different from learning another
spoken language. Uses a different part of the brain, too, and totally
different skills. I am able to master signs fairly easily because I can
cross-link to the part of my brain that learns spoken and written
languages, but lots of people can't do that, and lots of people don't
have the experience with languages I do. I operate at a disadvantage
because there are virtually no books "written" in sign, and the primary
way I study a foreign language is to read with a dictionary. All other
methods require a lot more money, or contact with a warm body who knows
the language. Both are much harder for me to come by than books.
Consequently, my knowledge of sign is still very limited.
Pat
--
Uucp: ..!{decvax,oliveb}!bunker!hcap!hnews!300!3!Pat.Goltz
Internet: Pat.Goltz@f3.n300.z1.fidonet.orgLaurie.Wilson@p0.f5.n119.z1.fidonet.org (Laurie Wilson) (03/02/90)
Index Number: 7023 Jack, > to > learn and I have a most difficult time with signers on > TV. Even > the same people that I can read fairly well in person are > tough > on TV. Something about that little vignette on the screen > kills > all the face expression, and face expression conveys a > lot of the > information in signing. I think the TV camerapeople need > to develop > a better way of showing sign. Well, I feel that from what I have seen of most interpreters on TV their interpreting is not always so clear. Really, I much prefer closed captioned. I understand that you and others want to learn signing as much as possible in any way. What you said about a lack of facial expressions on interpreter's part is so true because I rely pretty heavily on the expressions, too. In my classes, and other public places, the interpreters are very good at it. But on TV, I rarely ever see interpreter's facial expressions!! How about if you ever hear of any public meeting or event where an interpreter would be presented, then you can go and watch the signing?? It is too bad that you live too far, for I would be glad to teach you the signing myself. Oh well... Laurie -- Uucp: ..!{decvax,oliveb}!bunker!hcap!hnews!119!5.0!Laurie.Wilson Internet: Laurie.Wilson@p0.f5.n119.z1.fidonet.org
Laurie.Wilson@p0.f5.n119.z1.fidonet.org (Laurie Wilson) (03/02/90)
Index Number: 7024 > I'll give you a longer answer later, but I wanted to comment > on the ease of learning sign language. I see sign language > as harder for most hearing folks to learn simply because > it is very different from learning another spoken language. Okay, I'll grant you that sign language is harder to learn than any other spoken language is. If I recall correctly, my point was that most hearing people who was taking sign language course "had mistakenly assumed" that learning to sign would be easier than other foriegn language. Remember that ASL is now accepted as a foriegn language for college credit requirement. And then after awhile "they" would get discouraged upon a such difficult task of learning ASL. > and lots of people don't have the experience with languages > I do. I operate at a disadvantage because there are virtually > no books "written" in sign, and the primary way I study > a foreign language is to read with a dictionary. All other Yes that is so true. Now, I think of it and I see what you are saying. Most other foriegn language do have dictionaries, and ASL only have pictures of signs. > methods require a lot more money, or contact with a warm > body who knows the language. Both are much harder for > me to come by than books. Consequently, my knowledge of > sign is still very limited. *sigh* I know... how hard it is to keep practicing with ASL, especially all by yourself. And kinda boring, too. I think all of us have those problems those days too. You know, I hadn't sign for 13 years, so I sort of forgot most of the sign language. And when I had to relearn all over again, like you I came across some similar difficulty. However, I am lucky the last one year, for I have a Deaf roommate. Thus, I have her now to practice signing. Laurie -- Uucp: ..!{decvax,oliveb}!bunker!hcap!hnews!119!5.0!Laurie.Wilson Internet: Laurie.Wilson@p0.f5.n119.z1.fidonet.org
Lana.Berrington@f34.n129.z1.fidonet.org (Lana Berrington) (03/20/90)
Index Number: 7217
V*>> For me, as a person who began learning sign later in life,
V*>> I say that (for me) learning "signs" and remembering them
V*>> is pretty easy.
V*>>
Wow... I'm learning sign language right now and I'm finding
remembering the signs really difficult. I find it so much easier just to
cop out and finger-spell the word when I can't remember it than to look it
up in the book. The ones that I have the most difficulty with are the
ones that look very similar to each other, Ie: Stamp, Letter, Sit, Salt,
etc.. etc...
Alas.. I suppose I COULD be practicing right now instead of "playing"
with the computer <grin>
Take it Easy.
Lana
# Origin: Farpoint Station VHST 14.4K * (403)569-0000 Calgary AB (8:7500/55)
--
Uucp: ..!{decvax,oliveb}!bunker!hcap!hnews!129!34!Lana.Berrington
Internet: Lana.Berrington@f34.n129.z1.fidonet.org