Al.Hoffman@p0.f143.n109.z1.fidonet.org (Al Hoffman) (06/07/90)
Index Number: 8707
[This is from the Blink Talk Conference]
John:
Concerning "poor braille reading,":
If a fully sighted person were to say, "I am a poor print reader.
I'd rather use voice, and not bother with <reading>." What would
you think?
The point of braille is not access, but literacy. Anyone can
listen to a letter on tape, or from the synthesizer, and they can
learn spelling, grammar, all that too--but its still not the same
thing. Of course if emulations are so good that the viewer can't
tell the difference, who cares--but I don't think rest of the non-
blind world would allow people to drop print in favor of tapes/synthesizers.
For many things braille is not really needed. For example, NLS
produces a large variety of perfectly useless braille books, on subjects
like Lesbianism and the Handicapped, or Harlequin Love novels. This
material could just as easily be taed as are other more "interesting,"
materials. But, at least the user has the choice of "reading," the
materials rather than listening.
Okay, I'll stop with the outburst, but the trend towards less
braille for the blind drives me nuts. Maybe some of you don't want
to read out there, but your lack of braille interest makes my life
harder with each passing tape.
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Uucp: ..!{decvax,oliveb}!bunker!hcap!hnews!109!143.0!Al.Hoffman
Internet: Al.Hoffman@p0.f143.n109.z1.fidonet.orgGary.Petraccaro@f90.n129.z1.fidonet.org (Gary Petraccaro) (06/07/90)
Index Number: 8722
[This is from the Blink Talk Conference]
Al,
When I can read braille at 350 wpm, I'll be more interested.
Further, when braille can be dropped into a normal mailbox and my mailman
doesn't have to go nuts carrying the stuff, I'll be even more interested.
I understand your point on literacy, though you really mean style, but I
can get that from synthesized ASCII files with spot checks for the passages
in which I'm interested. Last, there's the increasing time delay factor.
By the time most books, tape or braille, get produced where the subject is
computers, they are hopelessly out of date.
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Uucp: ..!{decvax,oliveb}!bunker!hcap!hnews!129!90!Gary.Petraccaro
Internet: Gary.Petraccaro@f90.n129.z1.fidonet.orgAl.Hoffman@f0.n70.z8.fidonet.org (Al Hoffman) (06/28/90)
Index Number: 8911
[This is from the Blink Talk Conference]
Gary:
Your analogy refering to the "humans in the missiles," was well
taken, however, you've not responded to the actual premise--that if
blind people want to only use voice output, is this really "reading,"
I believe that writing really can be separated from the brailler
text. I "almost never," use a brailler to write text based materials,
but I definitely like a brailler for writing code sketches, or figuring
out calculus, or even just a simple outline for a speech. I suppose
I could use a braille-&-speak, which I have, to do outlines for speeches,
but how would that work? I use my braille and speak to store temporary
notes from meetings, phone lists work great, but I hate trying to
program on the thing--because of its 1-dimensional aspect, you have
forward, and backward, not up/down/left/right.
One interesting thing on the Navigator, a braille displa from
TSI, is the program to make it work in a VersaBraille environment.
I am not sure if I understand this well, but essentially what I understand
is that it also make it somewhat one dimensional--a string rather
than an image. I feel this is limiting especially with the advent
of the graphics interfaces, etc.
I recently use the Amiga 2000, and Chip's demo AmigaTalk program.
Its pretty good, but for the one-dimensional thinker it'd be scary
indeed, you have tasks in windows, and it could get confusing.
Okay, enough of my babbling in the morning for now. Take care,
and any thoughts on this issue are welcome. I am working on a braille
translator, but I wonder if anybody will want one.
# Origin: DARKNESS III (1:109/143.0)
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Uucp: ..!{decvax,oliveb}!bunker!hcap!hnews!8!70!0!Al.Hoffman
Internet: Al.Hoffman@f0.n70.z8.fidonet.orgGary.Petraccaro@f90.n129.z1.fidonet.org (Gary Petraccaro) (06/28/90)
Index Number: 8972
[This is from the Blink Talk Conference]
Al,
I agree with you that you cannot beat braille for notes, outlines, and
simple lists. After our VCR collection got to big to simply remember, I
started putting 3-by-5 cards in with the tapes which had the contents of
the tapes on them. As for code, I also agree that 2D beats hell out of
strings. As for reading: Assuming I got you right, reading is reading.
But, to get a real feel for how a writer's style is created you need either
braille or text on a computer, simple voice output won't suffice. Most
reading for pleasure doesn't require this, though.
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Uucp: ..!{decvax,oliveb}!bunker!hcap!hnews!129!90!Gary.Petraccaro
Internet: Gary.Petraccaro@f90.n129.z1.fidonet.orgGary.Petraccaro@f90.n129.z1.fidonet.org (Gary Petraccaro) (06/28/90)
Index Number: 8973
[This is from the Blink Talk Conference]
Not for ignoring braille. Just really wanted to make the point that
to communicate effectively with others doesn't require braille. Also, as
the information base on which we all operate grows, braille will become
increasingly hindersome--if that's not a word, it should be. Braille just
requires too damned much space. I've got databases which have over a meg
of information in them. What would that take in braille? See my previous
message on where I do find braille invaluable. On a somewhat related
point, which can you do faster, type on a braille keyboard or type?
Serious question: what's the average braille reading rate? what's a good
braille reading rate?
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Uucp: ..!{decvax,oliveb}!bunker!hcap!hnews!129!90!Gary.Petraccaro
Internet: Gary.Petraccaro@f90.n129.z1.fidonet.orgAl.Hoffman@f143.n109.z1.fidonet.org (Al Hoffman) (06/29/90)
Index Number: 8981
[This is from the Blink Talk Conference]
Gary:
I agree with you whole heartedly about reading for pleasure not
requireing braille. Maybe the selection staff at NLS would argue
this considering they regulary contract for braille copies of some
of the most poorly written garbage I've ever felt. They do
Candlelight Ecstasy novels for God's Sake! Why? I only could
conclude that for some this is well worth the effort, but I wonder
if the wants and needs are being confused in a situation such as
this?
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Uucp: ..!{decvax,oliveb}!bunker!hcap!hnews!109!143!Al.Hoffman
Internet: Al.Hoffman@f143.n109.z1.fidonet.orgGary.Petraccaro@f90.n129.z1.fidonet.org (Gary Petraccaro) (06/29/90)
Index Number: 8984
[This is from the Blink Talk Conference]
Al,
"Wants and needs..." Bless you. Precisely. The inability of many to
perceive the difference accounts for my jumping in as quickly as I did. As
for something you said earlier: wish RFB would do indices in braille. On
the other hand some of those suckers can be bleepin' long. (Grin.)
While we're at wants and needs, how about a complete NLS catalog.
What do people recently joining the program do for catalogs of stuff
produced in the '70's? Wanna bet they're screwed?
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Uucp: ..!{decvax,oliveb}!bunker!hcap!hnews!129!90!Gary.Petraccaro
Internet: Gary.Petraccaro@f90.n129.z1.fidonet.orgAl.Hoffman@f143.n109.z1.fidonet.org (Al Hoffman) (07/18/90)
Index Number: 9157
[This is from the Blink Talk Conference]
Well, for the later part of the msg about the NLS.
You can order (in print,) catalogs of NLS books, such as Westerns,
etc. I think this is really stupid myself, but what can ya say.
Most of NLS's reading population is in the age group over 50, and
for the most part they don't read braille. They read for
"pleasure," and they often are just passing time with the
material. They aren't likely to use a catalog with everything,
especially in braille, or even worse on a computer. There is I
think a new data-base for the regional libraries to use that allows
them to findc books for clients, but this is not really the way
lo\ibraries are supposed to work is it?
I may get into hot water with NLS people here, but it seems that
some more attention could be paid to the users who are blind and
have been for a long enough period of time that they are used to
blindiness, and know many of the ins and outs of information
retrieval, media, and cost. With hat in mind, catalogs should be
provided on disk in a database form, and more research should be
done to determine the books that are sorely lacking.
For the most part I feel that NLS does their job better than most
all other government organizations, I get a free pile of reading
materials constantly, even if its not always what I really want.
Its still more than any place else. I look at the half empty cup,
but still appreciate the water left me in the desert.
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Uucp: ..!{decvax,oliveb}!bunker!hcap!hnews!109!143!Al.Hoffman
Internet: Al.Hoffman@f143.n109.z1.fidonet.orgMarda.Anderson@f151.n321.z1.fidonet.org (Marda Anderson) (07/18/90)
Index Number: 9162
[This is from the Blink Talk Conference]
NLS catalogs on disk would be a great idea. To carry it further, it
would be nice to be able to order titles on-line from an 800 number.
Maybe in the future, as things in general get more and more computerized,
we'll see something like that.
marda
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Uucp: ..!{decvax,oliveb}!bunker!hcap!hnews!321!151!Marda.Anderson
Internet: Marda.Anderson@f151.n321.z1.fidonet.orgJohn.Sanfilippo@f608.n107.z1.fidonet.org (John Sanfilippo) (07/18/90)
Index Number: 9165
[This is from the Blink Talk Conference]
GP> While we're at wants and needs, how about a complete NLS
GP> catalog. What do people recently joining the program do for
GP> catalogs of stuff produced in the '70's? Wanna bet they're
GP> screwed
Hmmm. Second that quirey!! I wonder if there is a comprehensive
catalog of, for example, braille and or large print music
available? Sure, they put out updates concerning recent
additions to the collection, but how about a comprehensive
listing?
I often dream of a system wherein we may call in via modem and
brouse the library for whatever and order on line, requesting
the desired format etc. Then they wouldn't have to print or
reprint a comprehensive. Ah, but what about those who can't use
high tec for whatever reason?
So many issues!
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Uucp: ..!{decvax,oliveb}!bunker!hcap!hnews!107!608!John.Sanfilippo
Internet: John.Sanfilippo@f608.n107.z1.fidonet.org