Phil.Scovell@f810.n104.z1.fidonet.org (Phil Scovell) (07/11/90)
Index Number: 9076
[This is from the Blink Talk Conference]
I haven't been getting echoes for a few days and am getting caught up
now. It looks like I missed out on some of the discussion over
emergency exits on airplanes. This apparently came from comments I
made some time back about my wife and I, along with our three children,
bbeing made to move because we were seated in the row with an emergency
exit. This was do, of course, because we are both blind and because
two of our three children at that time were under the age of twelve.
This one is difficult to call. I have a good friend, not blind, who
was in a plane crash here in Denver in the mid 1970's. The plane got
about 400 feet off the ground, pulled its landing gear up, and then
lost air speed and crashed. The large 727 broke into three parts. It
was a miracle there was no fire since the plane was full of fuel for
take off. A couple of rows in front of him a woman, still strapped in
her seat, was screaming because she had multiple fractures and the
plane was broken open right where her legs dangled over the edge. My
friend helped several people off the plane and then unbuckled the
broken woman who was bleeding from multiple cuts all over her body, and
carried her, still screaming, to the emergency exit over one wing. He
climbed out on to the wing and with her in his arms, jumped to the
ground ten feet below and began running. Everyone figured the plane
would blow any second with all the fuel. My friend ran about a hundred
yards and laid the woman on the ground where medical personal began
working on her. My friend turned around to walk back to the plane to
help others but found he couldn't walk; his ankles had both broken when
he jumped the ten feet to the ground from the wing. I've told this
little story because I talked with my friend at length at the situation
inside the plane to try and get an idea of what it might be like for a
blind person in the middle of that panic. If a blind person, or a
sighted person for that matter, were seated in an emergency exit row,
and couldn't get out because of injuries or because of panic, they
would probably be trampled by those trying to get out. I personally
think the airlines are somewhat justified in this case by not allowing
the blind, the young, or anyone in a wheelchair in those rows. I
frankly don't want to sit there because of the panic by those trying to
get out. Wherever I sit on a plane, and I've flown thousands of miles
over the years, I listen carefully when they tell me where the exits
are. Often I'm one row a head or behind an exit row which I figure
is a safer place to be anyway. I would not wish my young children
seated in an emergency row because of the fear they might be over run
by those trying to escape. As I said, this is a difficult one to call.
I feel emotionally slighted over this because I'm blind but I do see
the reasoning behind it. I, however, think it's wiser to be seated
close, but not right on, an exit row for the reasons stated above.
>From my friend's description of what is happening inside a crashed
airliner, I think I'd be better off seated somewhere else in the plane.
Let me put it this way. If you are blind and if you are on a plane
and if you are still alive when it goes down, it's going to be every
man/woman for themself. Just get out! One more piece of advice, pray!
Phil.
--
Uucp: ..!{decvax,oliveb}!bunker!hcap!hnews!104!810!Phil.Scovell
Internet: Phil.Scovell@f810.n104.z1.fidonet.orgWalter.Siren.@p1.f8.n396.z1.fidonet.org (Walter Siren ) (07/11/90)
Index Number: 9082
[This is from the Blink Talk Conference]
PS> then unbuckled the broken woman who was bleeding from multiple cuts
PS> all over her body, and carried her, still screaming, to the emergency
PS> exit over one wing. He climbed out on to the wing and with her in
PS> his arms, jumped to the ground ten feet below and began running.
Phil, I wonder during all of this discussion that has taken place
on here, why no one brought the fact that after you jump down from
the wing you need to see where to run to, especially in a strange
place. I would rather have someone down there first to tell me
where to go.
PS> from the wing. I've told this little story because I talked with my
PS> friend at length at the situation inside the plane to try and get an
PS> idea of what it might be like for a blind person in the middle of
PS> that panic. If a blind person, or a sighted person for that matter,
PS> were seated in an emergency exit row, and couldn't get out because of
PS> injuries or because of panic, they would probably be trampled by
PS> those trying to get out. I personally think the airlines are
PS> somewhat justified in this case by not allowing the blind, the young,
PS> or anyone in a wheelchair in those rows. I frankly don't want to sit
PS> there because of the panic by those trying to get out.
I aggree with you. I think we do ourselves more harm than good by
making such a cry over this subject.
Walter
--
Uucp: ..!{decvax,oliveb}!bunker!hcap!hnews!396!8.1!Walter.Siren.
Internet: Walter.Siren.@p1.f8.n396.z1.fidonet.orgPaula.Mack@f210.n273.z1.fidonet.org (Paula Mack) (07/11/90)
Index Number: 9084
[This is from the Blink Talk Conference]
Hi Phil, I won't quote your message because of its length, but I've
been staying out of this discussion thus far; trying to sort out my
feelings on this issue enough to be able to verbalize it. Anyway, you
said exactly what I would have said. I just would like to add one
thing. Although I wouldn't like to have the responsibility of sitting
in an exit row, and as you said, it probably would not be the wisest
place for a blink or a person in a wheelchair and also probably people
with certain other problems which might limit movement, I do however
think that we are as blind people being slighted.
I only say this because they allow passengers who have been
drinking, passengers who are elderly, and passengers who may not be able
to read the emmergency directions to sit there. And it just seems to me
that whatever rules they want to have regarding this issue should
prohibit those people from sitting there as well, not just the blind.
It seems reasonable to me for them to come out with a ruling that
allows only airline personel to sit there. If they did that, I think
everyone would be safer.
Oh well, so much for my two cents.
Paula
--
Uucp: ..!{decvax,oliveb}!bunker!hcap!hnews!273!210!Paula.Mack
Internet: Paula.Mack@f210.n273.z1.fidonet.orgPhil.Scovell@f810.n104.z1.fidonet.org (Phil Scovell) (07/11/90)
Index Number: 9085
[This is from the Blink Talk Conference]
Bill,
I kinda agree. There are generally at least six emergency exits as I
recall on a plane. Unless a plane load of blinks going to a national
convention have taken over the plane and have no choice, you'd think
one blind person could be allowed to sit by one exit. There's an idea!
What if a hundred of us all got tickets on the same plane? Would they
make some of the blinks sit on the floor or ride in bagage because they
wouldn't let any blind people sit by them there exits? Boy, that could
cause a stink!
By the way, I was told by someone who once worked for the airlines that
the handicap and children are not even to be helped during an emergency
until everyone else is off the plane. I can't say if this is true but
it makes you feel mighty uncomfortable just thinking about it. Oh
well, just take the bus or do like Steve Gomes does with his dog; hich
hike.
Phil.
--
Uucp: ..!{decvax,oliveb}!bunker!hcap!hnews!104!810!Phil.Scovell
Internet: Phil.Scovell@f810.n104.z1.fidonet.orgJeff.Salzberg@f729.n106.z1.fidonet.org (Jeff Salzberg) (07/13/90)
Index Number: 9133
[This is from the Blink Talk Conference]
BK> Phil, I liked your common sense approach to the subject of exit
BK> row seating. Your message certainly gave me something to think
BK> about. However, I think I'd rather be the one deciding whether
BK> or not I wanted to take the risk and not someone else. It's
If you were the only one at risk, I'd agree with you, but you'd also be
putting the people behind you at risk.
--
Uucp: ..!{decvax,oliveb}!bunker!hcap!hnews!106!729!Jeff.Salzberg
Internet: Jeff.Salzberg@f729.n106.z1.fidonet.orgJeff.Salzberg@f729.n106.z1.fidonet.org (Jeff Salzberg) (07/13/90)
Index Number: 9134
[This is from the Blink Talk Conference]
PM> certain other problems which might limit movement, I do however
PM> think that we are as blind people being slighted. I only
PM> say this because they allow passengers who have been drinking,
PM> passengers who are elderly, and passengers who may not be able
PM> to read the emmergency directions to sit there. And it just
PM> seems to me that whatever rules they want to have regarding
PM> this issue should prohibit those people from sitting there as
PM> well, not just the blind. It seems reasonable to me for
Paula, you have raised some valid points...and they are points for which
I have no answer.
Of course, not all elderly people (maybe even not "most") would create a
problem. I'm not sure how airlines could police the drinking problem;
obviously, they could refuse service to those sitting by those exits,
but they can't prevent people from drinking BEFORE boarding. I have NO
idea what to do about illiterate passengers.
--
Uucp: ..!{decvax,oliveb}!bunker!hcap!hnews!106!729!Jeff.Salzberg
Internet: Jeff.Salzberg@f729.n106.z1.fidonet.orgmattioli@took.dec.com (John R. Mattioli) (07/17/90)
Index Number: 9137
Oh no! Not the same old tired subject of airplane exit seating
again! I thought this newsgroup was for discussing new ideas and
problems. Now, immediately after returning from the ACB
convention, I see the net world is over run by one of the oldest
and most tired subjects of them all. I can't believe this, but
I'll give my two cents just so I can say I did and then I'm going
to kill all of the exit row seating issues and move on to something
new.
I have never much liked our friend and NFB dictator Mr. Ken
Jurnigan. For some reason (his pushy political style perhaps) he
just pushes all the wrong buttons with me. I find that he likes to
present both sides of a story, but presents them in a very slanted
way.
Also, I get very disgusted by the feud going on between him and
Oral OMiller (the head of the national office for ACB). This feud
is 100% counterproductive and wastes time. I can understand why
these two men don't get along, just as I can understand why the
organizations they represent don't get along, but I really wish
they'd both stop wasting our time with it!
And what, you may well ask, do Kenny and Oral have to do with exit
row seating?
It seems there was recently a presidential press conference during
which both Ken and Oral asked the president what he thought of
various aspects of the laws relating to the blind. I've read the
article in the Braille Forum that relate to this, but I just got my
copy of the Braille Monitor yesterday, and I haven't read it yet.
It seemed, from the article in the forum, that Ken felt that George
Bush was less of a president because he had faith in the reports
presented to him by one of his subordinates. Obviously, this
report didn't say what either Ken or Oral wanted it to say, but I
think it is absolutely disrespectful to argue with the president
over such an issue.
I mean let's all be a little distant from this issue for a second
and let's try to rate it in terms of it's importance to George
Bush. I'd say it's pretty low, and I'm blind. In fact, if it is
highly important to any president, I want the man out of office.
This is an annoying problem for the disabled, it is not an issue
worth us all devoting our lives to. It is not an issue of
discrimination as much as it is an issue of public safety. There
are not a lot of airplanes crashing in comparison to the amount
that are taking off. Air travel is a reasonably safe mode of
transportation. I don't believe that allowing blind people to sit
in exit rows is going to save the lives of lots of blind people.
Yes, it's frustrating.
Yes, it's humiliating.
Yes, it's unfair.
Sure, it's all of these thing and a lot more but it's not the end
of the world! It's just the facts of life. In a situation where a
blind person is sitting in an exit row, it is my opinion that
aircraft evacuation is likely to be slower then if a capable,
physically fit, well prepared person were sitting there.
This, of course, leads to the question of what constitutes a
physically fit and well prepared person. I can't answer that
fully, I can only say that the airlines need to come out with tests
that they can give people. If you need to be a certain height and
you're not then you sit elsewhere. If you need to be a certain
weight and your not then you sit elsewhere. If you need to be
sighted and your not then you sit elsewhere. We all need a list of
criteria that states what makes a person capable of dealing with
the responsibilities of helping to save people's lives. I'd like
to see the FAA come up with a list and put it into practice. If it
makes sense and is supported by the airlines and if it is enforced
then I'll be perfectly happy to sit someplace else.
Another thing, and this is more important to me because it shows
the lack of understanding involved here.
As many of you may know, airlines have Braille versions of the
emergency procedures. I recently read in one of these about the
proper way to store a "flexible cane." It talked about how these
canes should be placed on the floor under the row of seats in which
the blind person is sitting so long as it doesn't stick out into
the passageway. Now I think they meant to discuss straight canes
instead of flexible canes but that's not what they said. It is
carelessness like this that fuels the fire. Clearly airlines need
to be educated better so that they know more about this subject.
They don't need fights and stormy scenes at the airports. They
don't need to through people off of the plane. They don't need any
of that!
And finally, one more quick point.
In a speech to the NFB convention last year, Ken made a statement
to the effect that it is impossible for a blind person to fly these
days without feeling the threat of something terrible happening.
Now I'm not exactly a frequent flier, but I do get around. In the
last year I've flown eight times. I have never been told where to
sit, I've always told the airline where I'd like to sit. I've
never been put in a wheelchair, I've always explained that I can
walk if they'd please lead me. I've never been treated like a
child, I've always explained to the personnel, in a calm polite
way, what I want and why I want it. When I'm offered the chance to
preboard I take it if I've got a lot of stuff with me. This is a
kindness to me as well as a help to them. If I don't have a lot of
stuff with me I say "no thank you" and it hasn't ever been forced
upon me. In short, Ken's accusation that a blind person feels
threatened simply isn't true. Perhaps many of them do, but I, for
one, and many other blind people I've spoken with agree, feel that
I'm dealing with uneducated people in a situation that must be
handled carefully, politically, and confidently. I don't ask for
exit row seating because I don't want the responsibility if they
give it to me (and I don't want the fight if they don't give it to
me).
So there you all have it. I just knew you cared :-).
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
John Mattioli
Most improved skier (american blind skiers association 1989)
and humble to!
(DEC E-NET) TOOK::MATTIOLI
(UUCP) {decvax, ucbvax, allegra}!decwrl!TOOK.dec.com!MATTIOLI
(ARPA) MATTIOLI@TOOK.dec.com
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(US MAIL) John Mattioli
550 King St. LKG2-2/BB9
Littleton, Ma. 01460cas@mtdcb.att.com (Clifford A Stevens, Jr) (07/17/90)
Index Number: 9142 I've posted this suggestion many times, but it is always ignored! I'm talking about requiring that *ANYBODY* who wants to sit by an emergency exit having to pass a one day course on using the thing and be tested under simulated crash conditions! And he'd have to swear never to drink either during or right before a flight. (I know, this is a weak point, but what can ou do?) ------------ Militant Handicapped Survivor! Cliff Stevens MT1E228 att!cbnewsj!ncas (908)671-7292
cas@mtdcb.att.com (Clifford A Stevens, Jr) (07/17/90)
Index Number: 9149 OK, from your post it's clear, only supermen should sit by airplane emergency exits! The rest of us aren't good enough! I still like the suggestion posted in this group, the suggestion was to only allow a person, *ANY* person, to sit by the exit, iff they passed a special course (Lasting one day!) that culminated in a trial run under simulated conditions! (Ie, darkness, noise, fumes, confusion, injuried passengers (Airline employees faking it!), fire, etcetera.) And *NO* drinking allowed by passengers sitting in an exit aisle! I'd take the test, but how many others? And who'd be willing to give up drinkjing? I don't drink anymore! ------------ Militant Handicapped Survivor! Cliff Stevens MT1E228 att!cbnewsj!ncas (908)671-7292
Bill.Koppelmann@f810.n104.z1.fidonet.org (Bill Koppelmann) (07/18/90)
Index Number: 9164
[This is from the Blink Talk Conference]
Walter, I guess what I should say that I haven't said already is that
at bottom, I feel that this exit row issue is to at least some degree
crucial to the independance of the blind. There certainly are reasons
why so many blind people aren't working, or aren't working to the
extent they could. My feeling is that whether or not this has
aanything to do with employment, I still feel that it is one that needs
to be looked at seriously.
BK.
--
Uucp: ..!{decvax,oliveb}!bunker!hcap!hnews!104!810!Bill.Koppelmann
Internet: Bill.Koppelmann@f810.n104.z1.fidonet.orgGary.Petraccaro@f90.n129.z1.fidonet.org (Gary Petraccaro) (07/18/90)
Index Number: 9170
[This is from the Blink Talk Conference]
-> In a message to Phil Scovell <06-25-90 10:25> Walter Siren wrote:
->
-> WS> I aggree with you. I think we do ourselves more harm than
-> WS> good by making such a cry over this subject.
Walter,
Right. Everyone else sees it as a safety issue involving lives, and
here we go turning it into an issue of rights. The real issue in this is
lives lost or saved. Everything else is secondary, and I do mean
secondary.
--
Uucp: ..!{decvax,oliveb}!bunker!hcap!hnews!129!90!Gary.Petraccaro
Internet: Gary.Petraccaro@f90.n129.z1.fidonet.orgGary.Petraccaro@f90.n129.z1.fidonet.org (Gary Petraccaro) (07/18/90)
Index Number: 9171
[This is from the Blink Talk Conference]
Bill,
Did you do a survey which informed you that drunks generally inhabited
the exit rows, or what? I've spent something over a week in the air, total
time, and haven't seen that many drunks except for those scared of flying,
but, then, I haven't done a survey either.
--
Uucp: ..!{decvax,oliveb}!bunker!hcap!hnews!129!90!Gary.Petraccaro
Internet: Gary.Petraccaro@f90.n129.z1.fidonet.orgBill.Koppelmann@f810.n104.z1.fidonet.org (Bill Koppelmann) (07/18/90)
Index Number: 9174
[This is from the Blink Talk Conference]
To put this in perspective, Gary, just how many planes would you say
crash out of the great multitude that fly? Is there that much of a
chance that a blind person would just happen to be in the exit row of
that plane? As I see it you're talking about a very remote chance,
don't you think?
--
Uucp: ..!{decvax,oliveb}!bunker!hcap!hnews!104!810!Bill.Koppelmann
Internet: Bill.Koppelmann@f810.n104.z1.fidonet.orgGary.Petraccaro@f90.n129.z1.fidonet.org (Gary Petraccaro) (07/18/90)
Index Number: 9176
[This is from the Blink Talk Conference]
Bill,
You're right, they may have an ax to grind, as, of course would the
airlines. It's just that I've never seen that many drunks on airplanes
I've flown in. I would expect that Jeff's right in that some people need
"fortification", might be one of those people myself (grin). The problem
with my experience is that most of it occurred in the '60's and things may
have changed a lot since then. I think that Paula's on the right track
when she talks about insuring that only responsible people occupy those
exit seats, and, like Phil, I wouldn't want to be right in that row, but
one behind or ahead. Another thought. What happens to someone with a
guide dog in the exit row. You just can't throw the dog out the door, and
I sure as heck wouldn't want to jump out with a 50-60 pound dog in my arms.
Obviously, this last doesn't have much to do with airline policy, just my
own wondering.
--
Uucp: ..!{decvax,oliveb}!bunker!hcap!hnews!129!90!Gary.Petraccaro
Internet: Gary.Petraccaro@f90.n129.z1.fidonet.orgDavid.Andrews@p0.f89.n129.z1.fidonet.org (David Andrews) (07/18/90)
Index Number: 9177
[This is from the Blink Talk Conference]
BK> however, I seem to remember hearing what you said
BK> about the disabled being told not to be helped. About that, I
BK> think I need to say is that I'm not surprised.
When I have flown, I have been told many times, "if anything happens, just wait.
When we get veryone else off we will come and get you. What they are really
saying, although they are tying to do the righ thing, is that you the blind
person can't get off without my help, and you will just have to wait until I
come and give it to you. By the way, I have also been told this concerning just
getting off the airplane at the airport and I am sure others of you have been
too. Obviously someone with that bad a view of blindness and the capabilities
of the blind isn't going to think we can handle an exit row. In previous
messages someone said that airline personnel should sit in exit rows. I agree.
However, the airlines have said that those seats are "revenue producing seats."
Thi9s means that they may well be placing their bottom lines over passenger
safety.
David Andrews
... Your Sound Alternative
--
Uucp: ..!{decvax,oliveb}!bunker!hcap!hnews!129!89.0!David.Andrews
Internet: David.Andrews@p0.f89.n129.z1.fidonet.orgDavid.Andrews@p0.f89.n129.z1.fidonet.org (David Andrews) (07/18/90)
Index Number: 9182
[This is from the Blink Talk Conference]
GP> I think that Paula's on
GP> the right track when she talks about insuring that only
GP> responsible people occupy those exit seats, and, like Phil, I
GP> wouldn't want to be right in that row, but one behind or
GP> ahead.
Gary, I Agree with you here, only responsible people should sit in the exit
rows. However, the airlines and some blind people differ on the point of who is
responsible. The airlines assume that all blind people are not responsible,
(capable, etc.) by virtue of the fact that they are blind. We are an easily
identifiable minority about which society has pretty low opinions. However,
many blind people are capable of handling the3mselves in an exit row, and this
fact is independent of their blindness. While this is not a neat and clean
issue, because of the safety overtones, we are still suffering blanket
discrimination in these situations by the assumption that all blind people are
not responsible because they are blindness. Airlines are allowing others to sit
in the exit rows, people who are clearly not safe. About a month ago I had a
Delta pilot tell me that we were clearly being discriminated against because we
are identifiable because of our canes and dogs.
GP> Another thought. What happens to someone with a guide
GP> dog in the exit row. You just can't throw the dog out the
GP> door, and I sure as heck wouldn't want to jump out with a
GP> 50-60 pound dog in my arms. Obviously, this last doesn't have
GP> much to do with airline policy, just my own wondering. ---
I presume that an airline would be reluctant to allow a guide dog in the exit
row because of the possibility of blocking the exit. I would have to tend to
agree with this one as the passageway should be kept clear so people could
leave. It would be difficult to attend to the removal of the emergency windown
and move the dog out by a single person.
David Andrews
... Your Sound Alternative
--
Uucp: ..!{decvax,oliveb}!bunker!hcap!hnews!129!89.0!David.Andrews
Internet: David.Andrews@p0.f89.n129.z1.fidonet.orgWilliam.Wilson@p0.f89.n129.z1.fidonet.org (William Wilson) (07/18/90)
Index Number: 9186
[This is from the Blink Talk Conference]
DA> because of the safety overtones, we are still suffering blanket
DA> discrimination in these situations by the assumption that all
DA> blind people are not responsible because they are blindness.
DA> Airlines are allowing others to sit in the exit rows, people
DA> who are clearly not safe.
David,
I wasn't going to touch this thread again, just wishing to
keep perspective and not drag it down to the depths of personal insult
but you've forced me to point out what I feel is a touch of hypocracy in
your position!
You and others have repeatedly used the argument that safety isn't
the real issue here, but rather that it is a case of "blanket"
discrimination, something that promotes the image of blinks as helpless
creatures, thus adding to the stereotyping that keeps our employment
rate so low, etc. David, I not only started to understand your position
on this, I was being swayed in my own opinion of this whole issue! In
fact, it was Eric Bohlman's message about the use of the laundry/fire
laws that started my reinterpretation of the airline situation, and
indeed, it is a complicated issue.
DA> --- I presume that an airline would be reluctant to allow a
DA> guide row because of the possibility of blocking the exit. I
DA> would h agree with this one as the passageway should be kept
DA> clear so leave. It would be difficult to attend to the
DA> removal of the and move the dog out by a single person.
DAVID!!! Up to now I thought you were saying that safety was not the
real issue here, but rather it was an act of discrimination against a
single group...BLINKS! Now you're saying it is ok to discriminate
against blinks with dogs, just not ones with canes!!! All of a sudden
the discrimination part is thrown away so you don't have to worry about
tripping over a guide dog!!! The fact that the person attached to the
guide dog is a blink becomes now secondary to the safety of the
passengers!
Sorry David, but I say we got to have it one way or the other! If
this is a discrimination issue and not a safety issue, all blinks should
have the right to sit their butts in the emergency row! Breaking blinks
into 2 categories, ones with guide dogs and ones without guide dogs, the
later to be the only ones able to avoid the discrimination, just sort of
takes all the sting out of your argument, at least for me!
Yep David, you've managed to get me right back where I started
from! I said originally, as the "chances are" subject field of this
thread initially said, that if safety is the issue, I was all for
discriminating against more people! I saw it at that time as a safety
issue, I believe the reality of the situation is that there is a slight
disadvantage to having a blind person sitting in the emergency row, just
as there is a disadvantage of having someone who has been drinking, or
someone who can't speak the dominant language of the plane passengers,
or someone who is prone to hysteria, etc. etc. etc. I also find your
willingness to agree that blinks using guide dogs should be allowed to
be discriminated against by the airlines a good sign that you are
changing your mind on this issue!
You going to New Orleans or Tampa next year?
Willie
... BlinkTalk, Dr. Deb and Silver in Pittsburgh!
--
Uucp: ..!{decvax,oliveb}!bunker!hcap!hnews!129!89.0!William.Wilson
Internet: William.Wilson@p0.f89.n129.z1.fidonet.orgMark.Senk@p0.f89.n129.z1.fidonet.org (Mark Senk) (07/19/90)
Index Number: 9254
[This is from the Blink Talk Conference]
I'd like to let you know that Greyhound does not discriminate against
blind people. Not only did they allow me and my girlfriend to sit near
the emergency exit on our 40 hour bus trip from Pittsburgh to the ACB
convention in Denver, but they were perfectly willing to let us or any
other rider stand or sit in the aisle at those times when the tickets
sold exceeded the number of seats on the bus.
Mark
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Uucp: ..!{decvax,oliveb}!bunker!hcap!hnews!129!89.0!Mark.Senk
Internet: Mark.Senk@p0.f89.n129.z1.fidonet.orgGlen.Nielson@f778.n115.z1.fidonet.org (Glen Nielson) (07/19/90)
Index Number: 9327
[This is from the Blink Talk Conference]
I agree that the practice of barring blind people from airline emergency
exit rows is wrong. My disagreement with NFB is over what to do about it.
It seems to me that NFB hasn't realised that the war we fight is a
guerilla war. I think the general approach has been far too confrontational.
I don't support the effort that was made to "shut down" U.S. Air's Washington,
DC operation. I can't support those who have been taken off airplanes by the
police because they wouldn't move.
Secondly, Keneth Jernigan's dream of finding an incident where someone
gets drunk on an airplane and kills somebody else in a car wreck so that
NFB can sue the airline is really off base. This whole business of safety
considerations is what got us into this mess in the first place.
I would like to force the airlines to revise their reservation programs
to ensure that blind people never get assigned seats on exit rows. If all
discrimination was that expensive, there'd be a lot less of it going on.
--Glen
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Uucp: ..!{decvax,oliveb}!bunker!hcap!hnews!115!778!Glen.Nielson
Internet: Glen.Nielson@f778.n115.z1.fidonet.orgSteve.Holmes@f1303.n102.z1.fidonet.org (Steve Holmes) (07/19/90)
Index Number: 9328
[This is from the Blink Talk Conference]
MS> I'd like to let you know that Greyhound does not discriminate
MS> against blind people. Not only did they allow me and my
MS> girlfriend to sit near the emergency exit on our 40 hour bus
MS> trip from Pittsburgh to the ACB convention in Denver, but they
MS> were perfectly willing to let us or any other rider stand or
MS> sit in the aisle at those times when the tickets sold exceeded
MS> the number of seats on the bus. Mark
Ahh, I know of an incident where they did discriminate! A very good
friend of mine, who has a guide dog and who, at that time, was on the
California state guide dog board, was ordered and I mean ordered to
muzzle her dog before getting on the bus; she consequently refused by
saying that hampers the dog's performance. This little entanglement
resulted in her blocking the door of the bus and an eventual law suite
against Gray Hound.
<Steve>
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Uucp: ..!{decvax,oliveb}!bunker!hcap!hnews!102!1303!Steve.Holmes
Internet: Steve.Holmes@f1303.n102.z1.fidonet.orgTom.Gerhart@f210.n273.z1.fidonet.org (Tom Gerhart) (07/19/90)
Index Number: 9330
[This is from the Blink Talk Conference]
Gairy,
A few years ago NFB did a test of evacuating an airplane and one of the
people did have a dog and he did pick her up and slide down the slide.
The funny thing was that when they hit the ground, the dog wanted to get
right back on the plane. Tom G
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Uucp: ..!{decvax,oliveb}!bunker!hcap!hnews!273!210!Tom.Gerhart
Internet: Tom.Gerhart@f210.n273.z1.fidonet.orgTom.Gerhart@f210.n273.z1.fidonet.org (Tom Gerhart) (07/19/90)
Index Number: 9332
[This is from the Blink Talk Conference]
Willie,
I just had to respond to your mesg. to David. I believe that in the NFB
there is a splitting of blinks into blind guys with dogs and those
without. As a dog user I saw this first hand at every convention I
attended, which was about ten. There has always been a sort of under
current about this subject. Tom Gfs
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Uucp: ..!{decvax,oliveb}!bunker!hcap!hnews!273!210!Tom.Gerhart
Internet: Tom.Gerhart@f210.n273.z1.fidonet.orgWilliam.Wilson@p0.f89.n129.z1.fidonet.org (William Wilson) (07/19/90)
Index Number: 9335
[This is from the Blink Talk Conference]
TG> I just had to respond to your mesg. to David. I believe that
TG> in the NFB there is a splitting of blinks into blind guys with
TG> dogs and those without. As a dog user I saw this first hand at
TG> every convention I attended, which was about ten.
Tom,
I'm not sure that this split is unique to the NFB, as I've also
noted this same thing with most any group of blind people with whom I've
come into contact!
I'll may as well throw all caution to the wind, and take this even
a step further...I've noticed that blind people who are educated via the
"blind school" route appear to most often be the ones who view guide
dogs as unnecessary baggage, or even worse! Ironically, I recently had
a conversation with a young woman of this ilk, and yet she not only
didn't use a cane effectively, she was obviously most use to traveling
with sighted assistance! No big deal, cause I definately don't want to
appear like one of those people who judges a fellow blink according to
their mobility skills, but the fact that someone with very little
ability in this area could be so adimantly anti-guide dog tells me she
was taught to be that way!
So then, to quote BK, "What do you think?"
Willie
... Even if you're not the lead dog, the view can be interesting!
--
Uucp: ..!{decvax,oliveb}!bunker!hcap!hnews!129!89.0!William.Wilson
Internet: William.Wilson@p0.f89.n129.z1.fidonet.orgPhil.Scovell@f810.n104.z1.fidonet.org (Phil Scovell) (07/19/90)
Index Number: 9337 [This is from the Blink Talk Conference] In a previous message, Tom wrote: >I believe in the NFB >there is a splitting of blinks into blind guys with dogs >and those without. As a dog user I saw this first hand at every >convention I attended, which was about ten. There has always been a >sort of under current about this subject. Tom, I don't doubt what you say but I doubt this attitude is limited to the NFB. I can do you one better however. I went to the Nebraska school for the blind for about four years before going back to public school in Omaha. At the school for the blind, the partially sighted guys were honored over the totally blind guys. In shop, those of us who were totally blind were not allowed to use the table saw but the partially sighted guys were. The partially sighted students were allowed to walk three blocks to the little neighborhood store alone but the totally blind guys were not allowed to do so. Some of this began to change over the years but this attitude still is around in some circles today. My wife went through the Iowa Commission for the Blind many years ago, more than twenty years back, and this pholosophy, if you can call it that, was not at the Commission. I went to visit the Commission once and spent the day there. I went to the shop and while there asked the shop teacher if the totally blind guys were allowed as much shop freedom as the partially sighted kids. As we talked, he said, "You hear the table saw just fire up?" I said, "yes." He said, "A totally blind guy is running it and no body is over there watching him." Have I left the topic? I don't think so but one thing we shouldn't forget is the individuality of the blind. I have several friends with guide dogs and everyone of them that I know are very independent travelers and also take very good care of their dogs and likewise are concerned about the image of the blind in society. I know other blind people with dogs, however, who don't care about themselves, their dogs, or what the rest of society thinks. Their dogs are dirty, unruley, and one lady I know brings her dog to work and the dog has such a bad case of fleas that no body in the office will get within fifty feet of her or the dog. On the other hand, I know cane users who themselves are so dirty, and for all I know have fleas, too, I wouldn't let them in my house. If you think I'm joking, I knew a blind couple with two sighted kids who had cockroches so badly that no one ever wanted to be around them. This same blind guy always said everybody was out to get him and always had personality conflicts with everyone. I know for a fact what you say is true about the attitude toward those with guide dogs because I used to think like that until I began to meet blind people locally who weren't like that with their dogs. People like Steve Gomes and Vicki Ireland who use this echo. If it weren't for them, however, I'd probably still have a bad attitude toward people with guide dogs. I was the second vice president of the Nebraska NFB for awhile and went to monthly meetings and state conventions and never saw this attitude which you speak of, but I know it exists in more than just the NFB. Would you agree? By the way, I'm not an NFB or ACB member now so I don't have an axe to grind. Since such a problem exists, however, it would be apparent to me the we, the blind, still have attitude problems and prejudices. It looks like we have a long ways to go before even we can operate without such attitudes as Captain Kirk and the Interprize crew does. Phil. -- Uucp: ..!{decvax,oliveb}!bunker!hcap!hnews!104!810!Phil.Scovell Internet: Phil.Scovell@f810.n104.z1.fidonet.org
Ted.Young@p0.f89.n129.z1.fidonet.org (Ted Young) (07/19/90)
Index Number: 9338
[This is from the Blink Talk Conference]
Hi Glen, there are two problems with your message that I se. First, if
you agree that blind people should be allowed to sit in emergency exit
rows then it would not be advisable to find a way for the airlines not
to assign us there. Second, it is unfortunate but true that it often
takes confrontational tactics to cause people to be concerned enough to
rethink their myths and stereotypes about blindness. Although such
tactics are not pleasant for the recipient or the person needing to do
them, it is seldom that History can show that a passive tactic brought
about real change.
Ted Young
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Uucp: ..!{decvax,oliveb}!bunker!hcap!hnews!129!89.0!Ted.Young
Internet: Ted.Young@p0.f89.n129.z1.fidonet.orgmattioli@took.dec.com (John R. Mattioli) (07/20/90)
Index Number: 9343 In article <12750@bunker.UUCP>, cas@mtdcb.att.com (Clifford A Stevens, Jr) writes... > >I still like the suggestion posted in this group, the suggestion was to >only allow a person, *ANY* person, to sit by the exit, iff they passed a >special course (Lasting one day!) that culminated in a trial run under >simulated conditions! (Ie, darkness, noise, fumes, confusion, injuried >passengers (Airline employees faking it!), fire, etcetera.) And *NO* >drinking allowed by passengers sitting in an exit aisle! > I'm afraid that, if you implimented this plan, you'd put a lot of aircrafts in the air with empty exit rows. Why should people be subjected to such a test? Why should the airlines be subjected to the added expense of training? I'm not saying it's a bad idea to have trained people at the exit rows, I'm just saying that the system has worked fine without that (except that some blind people feel put upon. Personally, I'd rather not sit in an exit row. I've got plenty of major concerns and responsibilities in my life without being responsible for the lives of the pasengers of an aircraft. It's not that I don't feel qualified to do the job, I just don't want to do the job. >------------ Nonmilitant Handicapped Achiever! -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- John Mattioli Most improved skier (american blind skiers association 1989) and humble to! (DEC E-NET) TOOK::MATTIOLI (UUCP) {decvax, ucbvax, allegra}!decwrl!TOOK.dec.com!MATTIOLI (ARPA) MATTIOLI@TOOK.dec.com MATTIOLI%TOOK.dec.com@decwrl.dec.com (US MAIL) John Mattioli 550 King St. LKG2-2/BB9 Littleton, Ma. 01460
Jeff.Salzberg@p0.f89.n129.z1.fidonet.org (Jeff Salzberg) (07/21/90)
Index Number: 9370
[This is from the Blink Talk Conference]
GM> I am a guide dog user and I feel that I could exit the plane as
GM> well as anyone.
I'm sure you could. How are you at opening unfamiliar, complicated,
pressure-resistant door mechanisms whose instructions are printed above
the handle?
... >> I support the Nat'l Endowment for the Arts <<
--
Uucp: ..!{decvax,oliveb}!bunker!hcap!hnews!129!89.0!Jeff.Salzberg
Internet: Jeff.Salzberg@p0.f89.n129.z1.fidonet.orgPhil.Scovell@f810.n104.z1.fidonet.org (Phil Scovell) (07/21/90)
Index Number: 9376
[This is from the Blink Talk Conference]
I've faithfully read all the messages over the past few weeks/months on
the subject of the blind being seated in emergency exits. I have
gotten lost. Are we talking about the safety of everyone on the plane
or just the safety of one blind person? I have suggested, through my
illustration of my sighted friend who was in a Denver plane crash, that
it appears in such a crash, it's every man for himself. If such is the
case, I again repeat, I don't want to sit on an exit row. Near one
perhaps, but not on one. Why? I think I'd be safer. Of course we
know the shutes deploy automatically when the plane is downed. I want
to know, when I dive head first down the shute, what's at the
bottom. The last thing I want to do is dive head first into a burning
kerosine fire from a ruptured fuel tank. Blind people helping sighted
people from a burning smoke filled building is a far cry from a broken
and shattered air liner that's just pan caked on to the runway at 200
miles an hour. If you are still alive and know what in the sam hill is
going on, and if you can help others, then do so. Now let's be honest
about this debate. Aren't you mad because, as a blind person, the real
issue here is that some sighted dude is telling you, a blind person,
that you just aren't as capable as the sighted person? We know that in
most cases, we can function as normally as a sighted person. If
someone has a law, or rule, which says otherwise, we get mad and, I
might add, rightfully so. When my wife and i, along with our three
children, were told we couldn't sit in the exit row, although that's
where they had already seated us, I knew why. When the lady was asked
by my wife why, she finally admitted it was an FAA regulation that the
blind, or otherwise handicapped, as well as children under twelve could
not be allow to sit in an emergency exit row. What did I then say you
might ask? Nothing! My NFB training, however, surfaced immediately
and I was tempted to sit back down and tell the air lines to jump in a
lake. I'm a father of three, however, and I knew I and my three
children would be safer away from an emergency exit. Are all blind
people alike? You might be able to get out of a burning plane but
would every other blind person be able to do the same? I don't think
those who drink, and get drunk, should be allowed in exit rows either.
I sure shootin don't think small children should be allowed there, do
you? The real question is, therefore, is there a safety hazzard in
allowing blind people to sit in emergency rows? Is there a safety
hazzard allowing children under twelve to sit in those rows? Is it
discrimination? The answer is, yes! Is it, however, just
discrimination? As a father, I think it is just not to allow children
in those rows, although I bet my fourteen year old is just as capable
and my eleven year old is just as capable of getting out as I am;
perhaps more so? What should be done about it? I think an organized
effort should be conducted with one air line company in an orderly and
fair manner to solve the problem. I think blind people should be
allowed to sit anywhere they desire on a plane. No matter how it comes
down in the end, I still don't wanna sit on the emergency row. In
fact, I don't even like to fly unless I have to. Now, if you disagree
with me, don't write me a message, cuz I hate it when people think I'm
wrong, especially when I think I'm right. <Grin>
By the way, my sighted friend to whom I referred in my earlier message
who was in the Denver plane crash is now on blinktalk. His name is
Scott Stockton and he reads our mail once and awhile. You might ask
his opinion but remember, he's sighted so he might not see it as we do
who are blind.
Phil.
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Uucp: ..!{decvax,oliveb}!bunker!hcap!hnews!104!810!Phil.Scovell
Internet: Phil.Scovell@f810.n104.z1.fidonet.orgTed.Young@p0.f89.n129.z1.fidonet.org (Ted Young) (07/21/90)
Index Number: 9392
[This is from the Blink Talk Conference]
Yes, but there are two major considerations. 1. The Berlin wall was
constructed against the common will of the people. and 2. The ideology
that caused the wall to come down was itself crumbling.
Unfortunately, beliefs myths and misconceptions about blindness are
deeply held by most people themselves and people do not change long
deeply held beliefs without some need to do so. Other minorities have
long known that asking people to change or, indeed, trying to educate
people concerning the need to change, does not work. Unfortunately,
confrontation is the only method I know of that causes people to see
the need to change, and most people will not change without seeing the
need to do so.
Ted Young
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Uucp: ..!{decvax,oliveb}!bunker!hcap!hnews!129!89.0!Ted.Young
Internet: Ted.Young@p0.f89.n129.z1.fidonet.orgGary.Petraccaro@f90.n129.z1.fidonet.org (Gary Petraccaro) (07/24/90)
Index Number: 9411
[This is from the Blink Talk Conference]
Steve,
Hate to break it to you, but muzzling is, or at least was, required in
some areas. I've seen and used muzzles provided by THE SEEING EYE and
they're no hardship whatsoever for the dog. Is there something in the
water that's making us progressively more and more antagonistic or is it
simply creeping brain death?
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Uucp: ..!{decvax,oliveb}!bunker!hcap!hnews!129!90!Gary.Petraccaro
Internet: Gary.Petraccaro@f90.n129.z1.fidonet.orgGary.Petraccaro@f90.n129.z1.fidonet.org (Gary Petraccaro) (07/24/90)
Index Number: 9413
[This is from the Blink Talk Conference]
Phil,
Thanks for your message on the attitudes of the blind. Those are
priceless examples. I know that sometimes my rhetoric can get overheated
and appologize to those on the receiving, but, in that message you
demonstrated clearly the point I wanted to get across. In the messages
in several threads the term discrimination has been used over and over
again. Though, no doubt, discrimination does exist and should be
countered, the trap I see us falling into is one of not taking care to
distinguish between it and the realms of legitimate personal choice.
Frankly, that lack of drawing proper distinctions worries me. If we
continue not to think carefully about what we're about, we might just
inspire a backlash which we do not want. It's bound to happen if we keep
on not taking care to differentiate the private from the public arenas.
--
Uucp: ..!{decvax,oliveb}!bunker!hcap!hnews!129!90!Gary.Petraccaro
Internet: Gary.Petraccaro@f90.n129.z1.fidonet.orgTed.Young@p0.f89.n129.z1.fidonet.org (Ted Young) (07/24/90)
Index Number: 9417
[This is from the Blink Talk Conference]
Gary; In your message to Phil you state "in several threads the
term discrimination has been used over and over again. Though, no
doubt, discrimination does exist and should be countered, the trap
I see us falling into is one of not taking care to distinguish
between it and the realms of legitimate personal choice." In the
case of the airlines discrimination occurs when, based on an
assumption about the lack of capabilities of the class, blind
people are barred from exit row seating. if a person, blind or
sighted, shooses not to sit in an exit row based on his or her
decision about his or her capabilities that is fine. The issue is
indeed whether he or she can make such a choice. The major result
of discrimination is to block such personal choice. With regard to
whether we bring about a backlash: Usually when people believe
something and act accordingly, and they are forced to reexamine
their beliefs and change those actions they will react. My opinion
is that people don't have to like me but they do have to give me my
rights in society and to respect those rights. It is only by
insisting on that that we can eventually gain respect which will
sometimes include being liked. Ted Young
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Uucp: ..!{decvax,oliveb}!bunker!hcap!hnews!129!89.0!Ted.Young
Internet: Ted.Young@p0.f89.n129.z1.fidonet.orgPhil.Scovell@f810.n104.z1.fidonet.org (Phil Scovell) (07/24/90)
Index Number: 9418
[This is from the Blink Talk Conference]
Ted,
Please go back and read my message again. I didn't imply any such thing.
The last thing I said was that a blind person should be allowed to sit
anywhere he wishes on a plane. By the way, I know first hand what
discrimination is really like. I worked in Omaha, Nebraska as a social
worker. My job in this particular department was to find and obtain jobs
for the blind. I had about forty blind clients for whom I sat in offices
day after day trying to prove to employors that we, the blind, could do it
just as well. Later, after moving to Colorado, I was turned down, not once,
but several times by those who said a blind guy couldn't do the job. I even
worked once in a particular situation where I was asked to be the head man
until they could get a sighted guy to replace me. I wasn't good enough for
the job full time but I was good enough until they could get someone to
replace me. I think you read something into my message that wasn't there,
or that I never intended. I'm also not losing any sleep over this issue.
After all, we're not being asked to sit in the back of the bus because of
the color of our skin. We are just being told that we are a safety risk by
sitting in certain rows by those who don't have a good working understanding
of the blind. Is it wrong? I already answered that question in my last
message so please read it again.
Phil.
--
Uucp: ..!{decvax,oliveb}!bunker!hcap!hnews!104!810!Phil.Scovell
Internet: Phil.Scovell@f810.n104.z1.fidonet.org