Doug.Geoffray@f8.n369.z1.fidonet.org (Doug Geoffray) (07/24/90)
Index Number: 9421
[This is from the Blink Talk Conference]
WS> That is one thing I like about jaws, I can press the
WS> jaws cursor, which is similar to review mode, but you can write
WS> in that mode. I can check what I want to set in the setup
WS> menu, and change them without going in and out of review mode.
Walter,
Sorry for butting in but. I understand the jaws cursor mode and of
course review mode. As you know we decided to go with a review mode
with Vocal-Eyes. To tell you the truth, the only people I have ever heard
say that the jaws approach is better are the people at henter-joyce and
people that have been told about the idea but have not used it. Don't get
me wrong. I am not nocking the idea at all. However, I would like to hear
from you, an actual user. Let me give you my thoughts both pros and cons.
I think the idea jaws is convaying about not having to go in and out of
review mode doesn't really hold water. It seems to me that you have to
constanly switch between jaws cursor and the applications cursor. Why
is that different then entering and exiting review mode? They both take
the same number of keystrokes. If you are currently using the jaws cursor
and you issue a command which moves the applications cursor then it seems
you would want to be relative to the new cursor position not where the jaws
cursor was last left. Therefore, you would have to either synch the jaws
cursor to the applications or return to the applications cursor mode. I
must be missing something here. The idea sounds nice but if I stop and
think about it, its really no different then review mode.
In fact, while listening to the JAWS demo tape, I noticed he was switching
back and forth between the jaws cursor and the applications cursor. It was
hard to tell he was doing it because of interruptability.
One nice thing I believe review mode has is the ability to review the screen
without the fear of affecting the underlying applications program. With
the JAWS cursor, if you hit a wrong key while you were reviewing the screen,
the application would try and act on it. This could cause problems.
I am sorry Walter. I did not mean to make this sound as negative as it
seems. Also I did not mean to take my frustration out on you. The time
and place was right so I thought I would add my two cents. If I am missing
something, I would seriously consider placing such a feature in Vocal-Eyes
but I really don't think it is any better then review mode.
Thanks
Doug
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Uucp: ..!{decvax,oliveb}!bunker!hcap!hnews!369!8!Doug.Geoffray
Internet: Doug.Geoffray@f8.n369.z1.fidonet.orgWilliam.Wilson@p0.f89.n129.z1.fidonet.org (William Wilson) (07/24/90)
Index Number: 9423
[This is from the Blink Talk Conference]
DG> I think the idea jaws is convaying about not having to go in
DG> and out of review mode doesn't really hold water. It seems to
DG> me that you have to constanly switch between jaws cursor and
DG> the applications cursor. Why is that different then entering
DG> and exiting review mode? They both take the same number of
DG> keystrokes. If you are currently using the jaws cursor and you
DG> issue a command which moves the applications cursor then it
DG> seems you would want to be relative to the new cursor position
DG> not where the jaws cursor was last left. Therefore, you would
DG> have to either synch the jaws cursor to the applications or
DG> return to the applications cursor mode.
Doug,
Thankyou for your explanation of the Jaws cursor mode, cause to
tell the truth, and assuming you are correct, it is the first time Ifeel
like I understand what those JAWS users are talking about!
Now, to add my two cents to this, it sure sounds like a tired old
story we got a long time ago when TALK, alias VOS, and Softvert were the
two major players in the game. Ron Hutchinson always made a big deal
out of the fact that there was no need for screen review with his
program, and all I can say is that if you think navigation was easy
without it, and that a lot of application keys wern't pushed that had to
be aborted before going back, figuring out what speech command you
really wanted to give, and try again, you're better than me! I was so
happy when I changed to Softvert and had a screen review mode that was
easy to move around in without fear of sending something to the
application, I felt like a kid on Christmas day!
Well, since then, of course, Ron Hutchinson added Roaming Reader
to Vos, his euphemism for screen review, and Jaws comes out with its
Jaws cursor! I was going to ask Walter exactly what you did, and say
this as well.
You know, if the cursor tracking of the speech program is right on, as
it is with Flipper (Sorry Doug, but I ain't got Vocal-Eyes....yet!)
there just isn't any need to go into screen review or anything else when
answering prompts, filling out menu selections, etc. For example, the
Opus Xpress reader program has what I think we will all agree is one of
the tricker to follow setup menus, etc. Well, right out of the box,
when you enter it with Flipper, you hit the "read current line" hot key,
it reads you the correct item, you fill in the appropriate information,
hit the down arrow key, it reads you the next item, you fill it out,
etc. In other words, the whole menu is filled out with but one speech
key, and this a hot key! Heck, I never tried it, but there is even a
chance that with "extended automatic output" turned on it wouldn't be
necessary to hit that original hot key, it might be spoken
automatically!
In other words Walter, I don't see any reason why either screen review
or Jaws cursor mode is necessary if your speech program tracks the
application cursor properly, and if for some reason I should have to
reread the screen, give me the ability to do it without messing
something up!
Willie
... BlinkTalk, Dr. Deb and Silver in Pittsburgh!
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Uucp: ..!{decvax,oliveb}!bunker!hcap!hnews!129!89.0!William.Wilson
Internet: William.Wilson@p0.f89.n129.z1.fidonet.orgDonald.Breda@f460.n101.z1.fidonet.org (Donald Breda) (07/24/90)
Index Number: 9431
[This is from the Blink Talk Conference]
WS>> That is one thing I like about jaws, I can press the
WS>> jaws cursor, which is similar to review mode, but you can write
WS>> in that mode. I can check what I want to set in the setup
WS>> menu, and change them without going in and out of review mode.
DG> Walter,
DG> Sorry for butting in but. I understand the jaws cursor mode
DG> and of course review mode. As you know we decided to go with
DG> a review mode with Vocal-Eyes. To tell you the truth, the
DG> only people I have ever heard say that the jaws approach is
DG> better are the people at henter-joyce and people that have
DG> been told about the idea but have not used it. Don't get me
DG> wrong. I am not nocking the idea at all. However, I would
DG> like to hear from you, an actual user. Let me give you my
DG> thoughts both pros and cons.
DG> I think the idea jaws is convaying about not having to go in
DG> and out of review mode doesn't really hold water. It seems to
DG> me that you have to constanly switch between jaws cursor and
DG> the applications cursor. Why is that different then entering
DG> and exiting review mode? They both take the same number of
DG> keystrokes. If you are currently using the jaws cursor and you
DG> issue a command which moves the applications cursor then it
DG> seems you would want to be relative to the new cursor position
DG> not where the jaws cursor was last left. Therefore, you would
DG> have to either synch the jaws cursor to the applications or
DG> return to the applications cursor mode. I must be missing
DG> something here. The idea sounds nice but if I stop and think
DG> about it, its really no different then review mode.
DG> In fact, while listening to the JAWS demo tape, I noticed he
DG> was switching back and forth between the jaws cursor and the
DG> applications cursor. It was hard to tell he was doing it
DG> because of interruptability.
DG> One nice thing I believe review mode has is the ability to
DG> review the screen without the fear of affecting the underlying
DG> applications program. With the JAWS cursor, if you hit a wrong
DG> key while you were reviewing the screen, the application would
DG> try and act on it. This could cause problems.
DG> I am sorry Walter. I did not mean to make this sound as
DG> negative as it seems. Also I did not mean to take my
DG> frustration out on you. The time and place was right so I
DG> thought I would add my two cents. If I am missing something, I
DG> would seriously consider placing such a feature in Vocal-Eyes
DG> but I really don't think it is any better then review mode.
DG> Thanks
DG> Doug
Hi Doug; Sory but I just had to but in here since there is a point about the
JAWS cursor mode which you do seem to be missing.I used to feel the same way
about JAWS cursor mode as you have expressed here, but what JAWS says is quite
accurate about there JAWS cursor or review mode.
The review mode in JAWS is different then that of most speech programs in that
you really have two separate and independent cursors.
The JAWS review mode is merely another pointer, and is totally independent. This
means that if you ead line 2 on the screen with the JAWS cursor, and you turned
it off and paid attention too the PC cursor, you could turn on the JAWS cursor
10 screens later and it would still be sitting at line 2. YOu can also route the
JAWS cursor to the PC cursor or visaversa. It is an independent pointer which
can be linked at will but is not necessarily linked. This makes it particularily
nice for database work and the like since you can clone databases much more
easily by reading the old fieldnames on the screen with the JAWS cursor and
still being able to type them in too the new database immediately. Please don't
sell it short, vocal eyes would benefit from that feature as would JAWS benefit
from some of vocal eyes features.
Hope this helps a bit.
Don.
P.S. I use both programs and like them both very much. Every speech program has
it's advantages and disadvantages and some oare better then others for doing
certain jobs.
... ABLED, BLINKTALK and Silver in Boston
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Uucp: ..!{decvax,oliveb}!bunker!hcap!hnews!101!460!Donald.Breda
Internet: Donald.Breda@f460.n101.z1.fidonet.orgWalter.Siren.@p1.f8.n396.z1.fidonet.org (Walter Siren ) (07/24/90)
Index Number: 9432
[This is from the Blink Talk Conference]
DG> Sorry for butting in but. I understand the jaws cursor mode and of
DG> course review mode. As you know we decided to go with a review mode
DG> with Vocal-Eyes. To tell you the truth, the only people I have ever
DG> heard say that the jaws approach is better are the people at henter-joyce
DG> and people that have been told about the idea but have not used it.
Well, Doug, here is one who is using it, and will tell you that I think that it is better.
DG> Don't get me wrong. I am not nocking the idea at all. However, I would
DG> like to hear from you, an actual user.
Ok, you are hearing from me. Of course this is just a friendly discussion.
DG> I think the idea jaws is convaying about not having to go in and out of
DG> review mode doesn't really hold water. It seems to me that you have to
DG> constanly switch between jaws cursor and the applications cursor. Why
DG> is that different then entering and exiting review mode? They both take
DG> the same number of keystrokes. If you are currently using the jaws cursor
DG> and you issue a command which moves the applications cursor then it seems
DG> you would want to be relative to the new cursor position not where the
DG> jaws cursor was last left. Therefore, you would have to either synch the
DG> jaws cursor to the applications or return to the applications cursor mode.
No, Doug. The example I was using before in the beginning of this
thread, is that the jaws cursor will move in proportion to the pc
cursor. When I finished typing in the answer for one question, I
would just have to do a say line, and read my next question without
changing cursors.
DG> I must be missing something here. The idea sounds nice but if I stop
DG> and think about it, its really no different then review mode.
Well, it is. You would have to get out of review mode, and type in what
you want to, and then return back to review mode.
DG> In fact, while listening to the JAWS demo tape, I noticed he was switching
DG> back and forth between the jaws cursor and the applications cursor.
Sometimes I do that from habbit from the old speech systems I use to use.
DG> One nice thing I believe review mode has is the ability to review the
DG> screen without the fear of affecting the underlying applications program.
That is true, but that doesn't bother me. I have never had any problems with
that.
DG> seems. Also I did not mean to take my frustration out on you. The
DG> time and place was right so I thought I would add my two cents. If I am
DG> missing something, I would seriously consider placing such a feature in
DG> Vocal-Eyes but I really don't think it is any better then review mode.
Again I guess that is all a matter of opinion. As I have heard
many times, that there is no one speech program with everything.
If there is, I haven't found it. Some day maybe I will. As some
one told me, I think that your program and jaws probably are going
to be the two best programs on the market. I know that we will
have disaggreements with that.
Doug, I have been reading your tape, however, and I think that you
have a good program. I have not started with the demo yet, but I
am looking forward to trying it out. I already see features I
like, and I will let you know what I think of it when I try it
out.
Doug, my daughter and I really enjoyed meeting you at the
convention, and we enjoyed sitting next to you at the blinktalk
supper.
Walter
--
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Uucp: ..!{decvax,oliveb}!bunker!hcap!hnews!396!8.1!Walter.Siren.
Internet: Walter.Siren.@p1.f8.n396.z1.fidonet.orgWalter.Siren.@p1.f8.n396.z1.fidonet.org (Walter Siren ) (07/25/90)
Index Number: 9496
[This is from the Blink Talk Conference]
+WW> Thankyou for your explanation of the Jaws cursor mode, cause to
WW> In other words Walter, I don't see any reason why either screen
WW> review
WW> or Jaws cursor mode is necessary if your speech program tracks the
WW> application cursor properly, and if for some reason I should have to
WW> reread the screen, give me the ability to do it without messing
WW> something up!
Maybe the answer to the whole thing is for vocal eyes to have both
worlds. Screen review for those who are afraid of messing up their
applications program, and the separate cursor for those who like
it. Like was said before, there is no speech program with
everything. Maybe some day that will happen. If more people like
Doug would get on hear and listen to their users.
Walter
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Uucp: ..!{decvax,oliveb}!bunker!hcap!hnews!396!8.1!Walter.Siren.
Internet: Walter.Siren.@p1.f8.n396.z1.fidonet.orgPaula.Mack@f210.n273.z1.fidonet.org (Paula Mack) (07/27/90)
Index Number: 9556
[This is from the Blink Talk Conference]
Willie, I just wanted to second what you said. I have fooled around
with almost all of the available demmos, and with jaws, I didn't like
the way they had it because if you did make a mistake or something, your
application was affected. My feeling is that I am glad to have review
mode because at times, I like to go back and re-read something.
However, with vocal-Eyes, I never need it to work within my aplications.
To me, it's just there for re-reading or possibly for familiarizing
myself with a new program so that I can figure out how to config
vocal-Eyes.
I personally don't know what all the fuss is about since with a good
Screen reader, review mode takes a back seat to all of the other
features, anyway.
Paula
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Internet: Paula.Mack@f210.n273.z1.fidonet.orgDoug.Geoffray@f8.n369.z1.fidonet.org (Doug Geoffray) (08/09/90)
Index Number: 9646
[This is from the Blink Talk Conference]
DB> Hi Doug; Sory but I just had to but in here since there is a
DB> point about the JAWS cursor mode which you do seem to be
DB> missing.I used to feel the same way about JAWS cursor mode as
DB> you have expressed here, but what JAWS says is quite accurate
DB> about there JAWS cursor or review mode. The review mode in JAWS
DB> is different then that of most speech programs in that you
DB> really have two separate and independent cursors. The JAWS
DB> review mode is merely another pointer, and is totally
DB> independent. This means that if you ead line 2 on the screen
DB> with the JAWS cursor, and you turned it off and paid attention
DB> too the PC cursor, you could turn on the JAWS cursor 10 screens
DB> later and it would still be sitting at line 2. YOu can also
DB> route the JAWS cursor to the PC cursor or visaversa.
Don,
Thanks for your input. It looks to me like there is one nice feature
you all like about the JAWS cursor. That is it is left exactly where
you left it. When you switch from window to window with Vocal-Eyes in
review mode, the review cursor is also left where you left it in that
window as well. However, when you enter review mode, the review cursor
starts at the point of the applications cursor. Vocal-Eyes lets
you sync each cursor to the other as well. Humm.. Maybe if Vocal-Eyes
offered somehow the ability to either start the review cursor at the
applications cursor or at the previous point it was at. Would that help?
Of course you still would have to exit review mode before typing pressing
an applications keystroke.
Or maybe simply offer the ability of entering review mode the way you can
now and also a way to enter this other mode. Once in this special review
mode you still would not be able to press the review mode commands but
you would be able to move the cursor anywhere on the screen and
would allow all applications keys to be passed on. humm. Lots of
details but what do you think. I DO NOT want to replace review mode
for this special mode. As you said, there are times when both would be
nice to have. humm. Will think about this. If any of you out there
have any ideas please let me know.
Thanks again Don.
Doug
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Uucp: ..!{decvax,oliveb}!bunker!hcap!hnews!369!8!Doug.Geoffray
Internet: Doug.Geoffray@f8.n369.z1.fidonet.orgcampbell%hpdmd48@hplabs.HP.COM (Gary Campbell) (08/11/90)
Index Number: 9714 Doug.Geoffray@f8.n369.z1.fidonet.org (Doug Geoffray) writes: >Index Number: 9646 >you sync each cursor to the other as well. Humm.. Maybe if Vocal-Eyes >offered somehow the ability to either start the review cursor at the >applications cursor or at the previous point it was at. Would that help? >Of course you still would have to exit review mode before typing pressing >an applications keystroke. > >Or maybe simply offer the ability of entering review mode the way you can >now and also a way to enter this other mode. Once in this special review >mode you still would not be able to press the review mode commands but >you would be able to move the cursor anywhere on the screen and >would allow all applications keys to be passed on. humm. Lots of >details but what do you think. I DO NOT want to replace review mode >for this special mode. As you said, there are times when both would be >nice to have. humm. Will think about this. If any of you out there >have any ideas please let me know. I use JAWS at work and Artic Vision (which has a review mode) at home. I am used to both. I do find that most of the time when I switch to the JAWS cursor I immediately follow that keystroke with a route JAWS to PC cursor command, but there are applications where I leave the JAWS cursor, say, on a status line or some other part of the screen and switch back and forth. The other real advantage of the JAWS implementation is that I can look at the screen *without* stopping the program. I can, for example, look at the screen while TrueScan is running (although in this particular case I don't think it is hurt by stopping). I can also look at the screen while in a terminal emulator during a lull in data transmission without fear of missing incoming data because I am in review mode. It sounds like your "special mode" is just the JAWS cursor mode, so the question may be "is it useful to have both separate read and write cursors and a conventional review mode". I think the answer may be yes. -- Gary Campbell campbell%hpdmd48.BOI.HP.COM@hplabs..HP.COM
Donald.Breda@f460.n101.z1.fidonet.org (Donald Breda) (08/11/90)
Index Number: 9734
[This is from the Blink Talk Conference]
DG> offered somehow the ability to either start the review cursor
DG> at the applications cursor or at the previous point it was at.
DG> Would that help? Of course you still would have to exit review
DG> mode before typing pressing an applications keystroke.
DG> Or maybe simply offer the ability of entering review mode the
DG> way you can now and also a way to enter this other mode. Once
DG> in this special review mode you still would not be able to
DG> press the review mode commands but you would be able to move
DG> the cursor anywhere on the screen and would allow all
DG> applications keys to be passed on. humm. Lots of details but
DG> what do you think. I DO NOT want to replace review mode for
DG> this special mode. As you said, there are times when both
DG> would be nice to have. humm. Will think about this. If any
DG> of you out there have any ideas please let me know.
DG> Thanks again Don.
DG> Doug
Hi Doug; Well those solutions sound really atractive and I would say if you
won't go crazy trying it then go for it.
If you could have it switchable so that vocaleyes could run the way it is now or
have an independent review cursor, that would be nice.
If you had it also able to let the keyboard remain usable as an option while in
review mode that would be nice as well. It certainly would be in keeping with
what seems to be your desire to make your program as configurable as possible.
Great work Doug and thanks for listening too all of us and taking our
suggestions seriously.
Take care.
... ABLED, BLINKTALK and Silver in Boston
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Uucp: ..!{decvax,oliveb}!bunker!hcap!hnews!101!460!Donald.Breda
Internet: Donald.Breda@f460.n101.z1.fidonet.orgWalter.Siren.@p1.f8.n396.z1.fidonet.org (Walter Siren ) (08/17/90)
Index Number: 9870
[This is from the Blink Talk Conference]
GC> I use JAWS at work and Artic Vision (which has a review mode) at home.
GC> I am used to both. I do find that most of the time when I switch to
GC> the
GC> JAWS cursor I immediately follow that keystroke with a route JAWS to PC
Gary, if you are going to go to the jaws cursor mode, and then
immediately route the jaws to the pc cursor, You don't have to
press the jaws cursor first. Just route jaws cursor to the pc
cursor, and it will put you in the jaws cursor mode, and roube the
jaws cursor to the pc cursor at the same time with the one key
stroke.
Walter
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Internet: Walter.Siren.@p1.f8.n396.z1.fidonet.org