Doug.Geoffray@f8.n369.z1.fidonet.org (Doug Geoffray) (07/24/90)
Index Number: 9421 [This is from the Blink Talk Conference] WS> That is one thing I like about jaws, I can press the WS> jaws cursor, which is similar to review mode, but you can write WS> in that mode. I can check what I want to set in the setup WS> menu, and change them without going in and out of review mode. Walter, Sorry for butting in but. I understand the jaws cursor mode and of course review mode. As you know we decided to go with a review mode with Vocal-Eyes. To tell you the truth, the only people I have ever heard say that the jaws approach is better are the people at henter-joyce and people that have been told about the idea but have not used it. Don't get me wrong. I am not nocking the idea at all. However, I would like to hear from you, an actual user. Let me give you my thoughts both pros and cons. I think the idea jaws is convaying about not having to go in and out of review mode doesn't really hold water. It seems to me that you have to constanly switch between jaws cursor and the applications cursor. Why is that different then entering and exiting review mode? They both take the same number of keystrokes. If you are currently using the jaws cursor and you issue a command which moves the applications cursor then it seems you would want to be relative to the new cursor position not where the jaws cursor was last left. Therefore, you would have to either synch the jaws cursor to the applications or return to the applications cursor mode. I must be missing something here. The idea sounds nice but if I stop and think about it, its really no different then review mode. In fact, while listening to the JAWS demo tape, I noticed he was switching back and forth between the jaws cursor and the applications cursor. It was hard to tell he was doing it because of interruptability. One nice thing I believe review mode has is the ability to review the screen without the fear of affecting the underlying applications program. With the JAWS cursor, if you hit a wrong key while you were reviewing the screen, the application would try and act on it. This could cause problems. I am sorry Walter. I did not mean to make this sound as negative as it seems. Also I did not mean to take my frustration out on you. The time and place was right so I thought I would add my two cents. If I am missing something, I would seriously consider placing such a feature in Vocal-Eyes but I really don't think it is any better then review mode. Thanks Doug -- Uucp: ..!{decvax,oliveb}!bunker!hcap!hnews!369!8!Doug.Geoffray Internet: Doug.Geoffray@f8.n369.z1.fidonet.org
William.Wilson@p0.f89.n129.z1.fidonet.org (William Wilson) (07/24/90)
Index Number: 9423 [This is from the Blink Talk Conference] DG> I think the idea jaws is convaying about not having to go in DG> and out of review mode doesn't really hold water. It seems to DG> me that you have to constanly switch between jaws cursor and DG> the applications cursor. Why is that different then entering DG> and exiting review mode? They both take the same number of DG> keystrokes. If you are currently using the jaws cursor and you DG> issue a command which moves the applications cursor then it DG> seems you would want to be relative to the new cursor position DG> not where the jaws cursor was last left. Therefore, you would DG> have to either synch the jaws cursor to the applications or DG> return to the applications cursor mode. Doug, Thankyou for your explanation of the Jaws cursor mode, cause to tell the truth, and assuming you are correct, it is the first time Ifeel like I understand what those JAWS users are talking about! Now, to add my two cents to this, it sure sounds like a tired old story we got a long time ago when TALK, alias VOS, and Softvert were the two major players in the game. Ron Hutchinson always made a big deal out of the fact that there was no need for screen review with his program, and all I can say is that if you think navigation was easy without it, and that a lot of application keys wern't pushed that had to be aborted before going back, figuring out what speech command you really wanted to give, and try again, you're better than me! I was so happy when I changed to Softvert and had a screen review mode that was easy to move around in without fear of sending something to the application, I felt like a kid on Christmas day! Well, since then, of course, Ron Hutchinson added Roaming Reader to Vos, his euphemism for screen review, and Jaws comes out with its Jaws cursor! I was going to ask Walter exactly what you did, and say this as well. You know, if the cursor tracking of the speech program is right on, as it is with Flipper (Sorry Doug, but I ain't got Vocal-Eyes....yet!) there just isn't any need to go into screen review or anything else when answering prompts, filling out menu selections, etc. For example, the Opus Xpress reader program has what I think we will all agree is one of the tricker to follow setup menus, etc. Well, right out of the box, when you enter it with Flipper, you hit the "read current line" hot key, it reads you the correct item, you fill in the appropriate information, hit the down arrow key, it reads you the next item, you fill it out, etc. In other words, the whole menu is filled out with but one speech key, and this a hot key! Heck, I never tried it, but there is even a chance that with "extended automatic output" turned on it wouldn't be necessary to hit that original hot key, it might be spoken automatically! In other words Walter, I don't see any reason why either screen review or Jaws cursor mode is necessary if your speech program tracks the application cursor properly, and if for some reason I should have to reread the screen, give me the ability to do it without messing something up! Willie ... BlinkTalk, Dr. Deb and Silver in Pittsburgh! -- Uucp: ..!{decvax,oliveb}!bunker!hcap!hnews!129!89.0!William.Wilson Internet: William.Wilson@p0.f89.n129.z1.fidonet.org
Donald.Breda@f460.n101.z1.fidonet.org (Donald Breda) (07/24/90)
Index Number: 9431 [This is from the Blink Talk Conference] WS>> That is one thing I like about jaws, I can press the WS>> jaws cursor, which is similar to review mode, but you can write WS>> in that mode. I can check what I want to set in the setup WS>> menu, and change them without going in and out of review mode. DG> Walter, DG> Sorry for butting in but. I understand the jaws cursor mode DG> and of course review mode. As you know we decided to go with DG> a review mode with Vocal-Eyes. To tell you the truth, the DG> only people I have ever heard say that the jaws approach is DG> better are the people at henter-joyce and people that have DG> been told about the idea but have not used it. Don't get me DG> wrong. I am not nocking the idea at all. However, I would DG> like to hear from you, an actual user. Let me give you my DG> thoughts both pros and cons. DG> I think the idea jaws is convaying about not having to go in DG> and out of review mode doesn't really hold water. It seems to DG> me that you have to constanly switch between jaws cursor and DG> the applications cursor. Why is that different then entering DG> and exiting review mode? They both take the same number of DG> keystrokes. If you are currently using the jaws cursor and you DG> issue a command which moves the applications cursor then it DG> seems you would want to be relative to the new cursor position DG> not where the jaws cursor was last left. Therefore, you would DG> have to either synch the jaws cursor to the applications or DG> return to the applications cursor mode. I must be missing DG> something here. The idea sounds nice but if I stop and think DG> about it, its really no different then review mode. DG> In fact, while listening to the JAWS demo tape, I noticed he DG> was switching back and forth between the jaws cursor and the DG> applications cursor. It was hard to tell he was doing it DG> because of interruptability. DG> One nice thing I believe review mode has is the ability to DG> review the screen without the fear of affecting the underlying DG> applications program. With the JAWS cursor, if you hit a wrong DG> key while you were reviewing the screen, the application would DG> try and act on it. This could cause problems. DG> I am sorry Walter. I did not mean to make this sound as DG> negative as it seems. Also I did not mean to take my DG> frustration out on you. The time and place was right so I DG> thought I would add my two cents. If I am missing something, I DG> would seriously consider placing such a feature in Vocal-Eyes DG> but I really don't think it is any better then review mode. DG> Thanks DG> Doug Hi Doug; Sory but I just had to but in here since there is a point about the JAWS cursor mode which you do seem to be missing.I used to feel the same way about JAWS cursor mode as you have expressed here, but what JAWS says is quite accurate about there JAWS cursor or review mode. The review mode in JAWS is different then that of most speech programs in that you really have two separate and independent cursors. The JAWS review mode is merely another pointer, and is totally independent. This means that if you ead line 2 on the screen with the JAWS cursor, and you turned it off and paid attention too the PC cursor, you could turn on the JAWS cursor 10 screens later and it would still be sitting at line 2. YOu can also route the JAWS cursor to the PC cursor or visaversa. It is an independent pointer which can be linked at will but is not necessarily linked. This makes it particularily nice for database work and the like since you can clone databases much more easily by reading the old fieldnames on the screen with the JAWS cursor and still being able to type them in too the new database immediately. Please don't sell it short, vocal eyes would benefit from that feature as would JAWS benefit from some of vocal eyes features. Hope this helps a bit. Don. P.S. I use both programs and like them both very much. Every speech program has it's advantages and disadvantages and some oare better then others for doing certain jobs. ... ABLED, BLINKTALK and Silver in Boston -- Uucp: ..!{decvax,oliveb}!bunker!hcap!hnews!101!460!Donald.Breda Internet: Donald.Breda@f460.n101.z1.fidonet.org
Walter.Siren.@p1.f8.n396.z1.fidonet.org (Walter Siren ) (07/24/90)
Index Number: 9432 [This is from the Blink Talk Conference] DG> Sorry for butting in but. I understand the jaws cursor mode and of DG> course review mode. As you know we decided to go with a review mode DG> with Vocal-Eyes. To tell you the truth, the only people I have ever DG> heard say that the jaws approach is better are the people at henter-joyce DG> and people that have been told about the idea but have not used it. Well, Doug, here is one who is using it, and will tell you that I think that it is better. DG> Don't get me wrong. I am not nocking the idea at all. However, I would DG> like to hear from you, an actual user. Ok, you are hearing from me. Of course this is just a friendly discussion. DG> I think the idea jaws is convaying about not having to go in and out of DG> review mode doesn't really hold water. It seems to me that you have to DG> constanly switch between jaws cursor and the applications cursor. Why DG> is that different then entering and exiting review mode? They both take DG> the same number of keystrokes. If you are currently using the jaws cursor DG> and you issue a command which moves the applications cursor then it seems DG> you would want to be relative to the new cursor position not where the DG> jaws cursor was last left. Therefore, you would have to either synch the DG> jaws cursor to the applications or return to the applications cursor mode. No, Doug. The example I was using before in the beginning of this thread, is that the jaws cursor will move in proportion to the pc cursor. When I finished typing in the answer for one question, I would just have to do a say line, and read my next question without changing cursors. DG> I must be missing something here. The idea sounds nice but if I stop DG> and think about it, its really no different then review mode. Well, it is. You would have to get out of review mode, and type in what you want to, and then return back to review mode. DG> In fact, while listening to the JAWS demo tape, I noticed he was switching DG> back and forth between the jaws cursor and the applications cursor. Sometimes I do that from habbit from the old speech systems I use to use. DG> One nice thing I believe review mode has is the ability to review the DG> screen without the fear of affecting the underlying applications program. That is true, but that doesn't bother me. I have never had any problems with that. DG> seems. Also I did not mean to take my frustration out on you. The DG> time and place was right so I thought I would add my two cents. If I am DG> missing something, I would seriously consider placing such a feature in DG> Vocal-Eyes but I really don't think it is any better then review mode. Again I guess that is all a matter of opinion. As I have heard many times, that there is no one speech program with everything. If there is, I haven't found it. Some day maybe I will. As some one told me, I think that your program and jaws probably are going to be the two best programs on the market. I know that we will have disaggreements with that. Doug, I have been reading your tape, however, and I think that you have a good program. I have not started with the demo yet, but I am looking forward to trying it out. I already see features I like, and I will let you know what I think of it when I try it out. Doug, my daughter and I really enjoyed meeting you at the convention, and we enjoyed sitting next to you at the blinktalk supper. Walter -- -- Uucp: ..!{decvax,oliveb}!bunker!hcap!hnews!396!8.1!Walter.Siren. Internet: Walter.Siren.@p1.f8.n396.z1.fidonet.org
Walter.Siren.@p1.f8.n396.z1.fidonet.org (Walter Siren ) (07/25/90)
Index Number: 9496 [This is from the Blink Talk Conference] +WW> Thankyou for your explanation of the Jaws cursor mode, cause to WW> In other words Walter, I don't see any reason why either screen WW> review WW> or Jaws cursor mode is necessary if your speech program tracks the WW> application cursor properly, and if for some reason I should have to WW> reread the screen, give me the ability to do it without messing WW> something up! Maybe the answer to the whole thing is for vocal eyes to have both worlds. Screen review for those who are afraid of messing up their applications program, and the separate cursor for those who like it. Like was said before, there is no speech program with everything. Maybe some day that will happen. If more people like Doug would get on hear and listen to their users. Walter -- Uucp: ..!{decvax,oliveb}!bunker!hcap!hnews!396!8.1!Walter.Siren. Internet: Walter.Siren.@p1.f8.n396.z1.fidonet.org
Paula.Mack@f210.n273.z1.fidonet.org (Paula Mack) (07/27/90)
Index Number: 9556 [This is from the Blink Talk Conference] Willie, I just wanted to second what you said. I have fooled around with almost all of the available demmos, and with jaws, I didn't like the way they had it because if you did make a mistake or something, your application was affected. My feeling is that I am glad to have review mode because at times, I like to go back and re-read something. However, with vocal-Eyes, I never need it to work within my aplications. To me, it's just there for re-reading or possibly for familiarizing myself with a new program so that I can figure out how to config vocal-Eyes. I personally don't know what all the fuss is about since with a good Screen reader, review mode takes a back seat to all of the other features, anyway. Paula -- Uucp: ..!{decvax,oliveb}!bunker!hcap!hnews!273!210!Paula.Mack Internet: Paula.Mack@f210.n273.z1.fidonet.org
Doug.Geoffray@f8.n369.z1.fidonet.org (Doug Geoffray) (08/09/90)
Index Number: 9646 [This is from the Blink Talk Conference] DB> Hi Doug; Sory but I just had to but in here since there is a DB> point about the JAWS cursor mode which you do seem to be DB> missing.I used to feel the same way about JAWS cursor mode as DB> you have expressed here, but what JAWS says is quite accurate DB> about there JAWS cursor or review mode. The review mode in JAWS DB> is different then that of most speech programs in that you DB> really have two separate and independent cursors. The JAWS DB> review mode is merely another pointer, and is totally DB> independent. This means that if you ead line 2 on the screen DB> with the JAWS cursor, and you turned it off and paid attention DB> too the PC cursor, you could turn on the JAWS cursor 10 screens DB> later and it would still be sitting at line 2. YOu can also DB> route the JAWS cursor to the PC cursor or visaversa. Don, Thanks for your input. It looks to me like there is one nice feature you all like about the JAWS cursor. That is it is left exactly where you left it. When you switch from window to window with Vocal-Eyes in review mode, the review cursor is also left where you left it in that window as well. However, when you enter review mode, the review cursor starts at the point of the applications cursor. Vocal-Eyes lets you sync each cursor to the other as well. Humm.. Maybe if Vocal-Eyes offered somehow the ability to either start the review cursor at the applications cursor or at the previous point it was at. Would that help? Of course you still would have to exit review mode before typing pressing an applications keystroke. Or maybe simply offer the ability of entering review mode the way you can now and also a way to enter this other mode. Once in this special review mode you still would not be able to press the review mode commands but you would be able to move the cursor anywhere on the screen and would allow all applications keys to be passed on. humm. Lots of details but what do you think. I DO NOT want to replace review mode for this special mode. As you said, there are times when both would be nice to have. humm. Will think about this. If any of you out there have any ideas please let me know. Thanks again Don. Doug -- Uucp: ..!{decvax,oliveb}!bunker!hcap!hnews!369!8!Doug.Geoffray Internet: Doug.Geoffray@f8.n369.z1.fidonet.org
campbell%hpdmd48@hplabs.HP.COM (Gary Campbell) (08/11/90)
Index Number: 9714 Doug.Geoffray@f8.n369.z1.fidonet.org (Doug Geoffray) writes: >Index Number: 9646 >you sync each cursor to the other as well. Humm.. Maybe if Vocal-Eyes >offered somehow the ability to either start the review cursor at the >applications cursor or at the previous point it was at. Would that help? >Of course you still would have to exit review mode before typing pressing >an applications keystroke. > >Or maybe simply offer the ability of entering review mode the way you can >now and also a way to enter this other mode. Once in this special review >mode you still would not be able to press the review mode commands but >you would be able to move the cursor anywhere on the screen and >would allow all applications keys to be passed on. humm. Lots of >details but what do you think. I DO NOT want to replace review mode >for this special mode. As you said, there are times when both would be >nice to have. humm. Will think about this. If any of you out there >have any ideas please let me know. I use JAWS at work and Artic Vision (which has a review mode) at home. I am used to both. I do find that most of the time when I switch to the JAWS cursor I immediately follow that keystroke with a route JAWS to PC cursor command, but there are applications where I leave the JAWS cursor, say, on a status line or some other part of the screen and switch back and forth. The other real advantage of the JAWS implementation is that I can look at the screen *without* stopping the program. I can, for example, look at the screen while TrueScan is running (although in this particular case I don't think it is hurt by stopping). I can also look at the screen while in a terminal emulator during a lull in data transmission without fear of missing incoming data because I am in review mode. It sounds like your "special mode" is just the JAWS cursor mode, so the question may be "is it useful to have both separate read and write cursors and a conventional review mode". I think the answer may be yes. -- Gary Campbell campbell%hpdmd48.BOI.HP.COM@hplabs..HP.COM
Donald.Breda@f460.n101.z1.fidonet.org (Donald Breda) (08/11/90)
Index Number: 9734 [This is from the Blink Talk Conference] DG> offered somehow the ability to either start the review cursor DG> at the applications cursor or at the previous point it was at. DG> Would that help? Of course you still would have to exit review DG> mode before typing pressing an applications keystroke. DG> Or maybe simply offer the ability of entering review mode the DG> way you can now and also a way to enter this other mode. Once DG> in this special review mode you still would not be able to DG> press the review mode commands but you would be able to move DG> the cursor anywhere on the screen and would allow all DG> applications keys to be passed on. humm. Lots of details but DG> what do you think. I DO NOT want to replace review mode for DG> this special mode. As you said, there are times when both DG> would be nice to have. humm. Will think about this. If any DG> of you out there have any ideas please let me know. DG> Thanks again Don. DG> Doug Hi Doug; Well those solutions sound really atractive and I would say if you won't go crazy trying it then go for it. If you could have it switchable so that vocaleyes could run the way it is now or have an independent review cursor, that would be nice. If you had it also able to let the keyboard remain usable as an option while in review mode that would be nice as well. It certainly would be in keeping with what seems to be your desire to make your program as configurable as possible. Great work Doug and thanks for listening too all of us and taking our suggestions seriously. Take care. ... ABLED, BLINKTALK and Silver in Boston -- Uucp: ..!{decvax,oliveb}!bunker!hcap!hnews!101!460!Donald.Breda Internet: Donald.Breda@f460.n101.z1.fidonet.org
Walter.Siren.@p1.f8.n396.z1.fidonet.org (Walter Siren ) (08/17/90)
Index Number: 9870 [This is from the Blink Talk Conference] GC> I use JAWS at work and Artic Vision (which has a review mode) at home. GC> I am used to both. I do find that most of the time when I switch to GC> the GC> JAWS cursor I immediately follow that keystroke with a route JAWS to PC Gary, if you are going to go to the jaws cursor mode, and then immediately route the jaws to the pc cursor, You don't have to press the jaws cursor first. Just route jaws cursor to the pc cursor, and it will put you in the jaws cursor mode, and roube the jaws cursor to the pc cursor at the same time with the one key stroke. Walter -- Uucp: ..!{decvax,oliveb}!bunker!hcap!hnews!396!8.1!Walter.Siren. Internet: Walter.Siren.@p1.f8.n396.z1.fidonet.org