Henry.Kasten@f10.n130.z1.fidonet.org (Henry Kasten) (09/25/90)
Index Number: 10631
[This is from the Blink Talk Conference]
Here I go again, this serious stuff is going to be the total
ruination of me yet. Dear Willie, except for a very short period
of time, I have had another dog in addition to my dog guide
Falcon. The most difficult part of owning two dogs is paying the
Vet. When I first brought Falcon home, I was worried that Bear, my
pet for 13 years, would not accept him. man was I ever wrong. Bear
was on his last legs, falling apart rapidly. Willie, I know dogs
are not people, and you shouldn't compare the two, but, when Falcon
came home, Bear perked up. We'd go for walks and Bear would trot
along as id he was showing off his new grandson. For nearly Two
years their relationship was one of true love and respect. Each
watching out for the other, playing together, yet falcon knew when
to ease up. It was great to see those two together. Bear is no
longer with us, (damn, I wish that was beer dripping on the
keyboard) The house seemed empty. So we went and got a puppy.
Things are back to normal now. Patches and Falcon are inseparable
when were at home. Each dog provides to my family his own
usefulness, together they are just what we need. I honestly can't
think of any reason why you cant keep Strider. (Not that I'm at
all biased) So go to Morris town full of suspense and expectation
and don't worry about Strider. He will be fine. But, you might
want to have his heart checked out before you bring home any
bitches.
henry
--
Uucp: ..!{decvax,oliveb}!bunker!hcap!hnews!130!10!Henry.Kasten
Internet: Henry.Kasten@f10.n130.z1.fidonet.orgAl.Hoffman@p0.f143.n109.z1.fidonet.org (Al Hoffman) (10/05/90)
Index Number: 10911
[This is from the Blink Talk Conference]
Henry:
This is a reply to a msg from a little bit ago about dogs and
canes. I have questions that haven't been answered yet.
1. What can you do with a dog that I can't with ease and speed with my
cane. I am not unimaginative. I won't even mention the things that
limit a dog, but is the limit on a cane--thats the limit of the user, as
you will no doubt say holds for the dog as well.
Given that the dog has more inherent abilities, it probablly has
more inherent applications. BBut with each application of the dogs
abilities comes the application of Murphy's law that the more
complicated the system the more places Murphy can apply himself. A cane
is less complex, but I don't think that is a limit--it what you know on
the top of the cane that makes the bottom useful.
About perseptions of the dog and cane traveler you may be right.
Personally I'd rather that people go ahead and step back, makes my job
simpler-les of them to go around, and if you traveld here during rush
hour you would find that that doesn't hold water, they'll push blind
people out of the way just as fast as anybody else.
I bet a dog user would get one advantage here traveling on the
subways however. The person would get a "handicapped," seat faster than
the cane traveler. The dog is just too obvious to miss, and the dog can
get stepped on in the crush, people will feel sorry for the dog and give
the user the seat, wher the cane user will end up standing. Its funny,
there is a sign above the seats that say "for handicapped or elderly
use," or something of that effect, yet people usually hog the seat
anyway. I can stand with no harm, but they those same people who will
hog the seat will also say "sorry you're blind, we don't have work for
you because you are blind,". Its a strange world!
But, back to the point, send me examples of things I could do with
a dog. I am interested, maybe I'll get one, but the utility has to be
made clear to me--I don't want to get one to find I don't need one, or
don't want one. I like dogs, but then I'd not want to take somebodies
place in a class who needs a dog sooner than I. Right now I am
functioning fine, and can't think of many things I can't do, even if a
dog were part of my mobility toolkit. But... everybody is wrong.
Thanks for responding.
--
Uucp: ..!{decvax,oliveb}!bunker!hcap!hnews!109!143.0!Al.Hoffman
Internet: Al.Hoffman@p0.f143.n109.z1.fidonet.orgWalter.Siren.@p18.f5.n396.z1.fidonet.org (Walter Siren ) (10/05/90)
Index Number: 10920
[This is from the Blink Talk Conference]
AH> canes. I have questions that haven't been answered yet.
AH> 1. What can you do with a dog that I can't with ease and speed with
AH> my cane. I am not unimaginative. I won't even mention the things
AH> that limit a dog, but is the limit on a cane--thats the limit of the
AH> user, as you will no doubt say holds for the dog as well.
Al, you have opened yourself to more reading than we have time for
on here. While I am not Henry, I am a cane user, and I did use a
dog once. I would have to write a book to tell you what you could
do better with a dog. Here are just a few things you can do better
with a dog than with a cane.
1, you can cross busier streets more safely; 2, if you go shopping
with a dog, I guarrantee you you will get waited on quicker with a
dog. It might be, because they want to gget you out of there, but
who cares. 3, you can get to places that you are use to going to,
and the dog will automatically turn in, expecially if it is a
harder place to find, and your cane will not turn in
automatically. Don't count on this for getting to a vet though.
4, You can travel faster. with d a dog, not to mention safer. 5,
many a time I was crossing a street, and did not hear a car, and
the dog would stop, and let it go by. 6, I got side s wiped by a
bus once, with my cane, and that wouldn't have happened if I had
been using a dog. 7, With a dog, people will be faster to get out
of your way. 8, once my wife and I were trying to get on a bus
during peak traveling time, and she had her dog, and the bus was
full, and she did not think that we could get on, and I said we
will not wait for any more busses, because they will all be
filled. When we got on, the driver had been telling everyone to
step back, but they did not listen to him, and when we got on, they
went back so fast, that there was enough room in front that I could
have laid down. We asked him, if he would like to borrow the dog,
and he said he should would.
That just scratches the surface.
Now, with anything comes disadvantages, and you have to weigh
them. The better cane traveler you are, the better dog traveler
you will be.
After all of that, you might ask why I don't use a dog any more.
Well, it is simple, I don't do enough traveling to warrant the use
of a dog. My cane will get me there, but if I had to do a lot of
traveling, I would have another dog, and I am not what you might
call a real dog lover, but I can certainly realize their value.
Walter
--
Uucp: ..!{decvax,oliveb}!bunker!hcap!hnews!396!5.18!Walter.Siren.
Internet: Walter.Siren.@p18.f5.n396.z1.fidonet.orgGary.Petraccaro@f90.n129.z1.fidonet.org (Gary Petraccaro) (10/05/90)
Index Number: 10928
[This is from the Blink Talk Conference]
-> In a message to Henry Kasten <09-30-90 14:04> Al Hoffman wrote:
->
-> AH> 1. What can you do with a dog that I can't with ease and
-> AH> speed with my cane. I am not unimaginative. I won't even
-> AH> mention the things that limit a dog, but is the limit on a
-> AH> cane--thats the limit of the user, as you will no doubt say
-> AH> holds for the dog as well.
Al,
Sorry to say this, but with your attitude, don't get a dog. Listen,
that's not a slam. You seriously don't seem to be interested in the "dog"
part of this whole enterprise. That's basic to being successful. Anything
you can do with a cane you can do with a dog, pure and simple. No
companionship with the cane, but you won't have to take it for walks, or
take it to the vet either. You won't have to put it to sleep either, nor
will you ever have to face retiring it and adapting yourself to a new
model. Probably one of the wiser types in this echo will be able to
provide you with a meaningful perspective. All I can say, however, is that
I never heard a dog user ask themselves the same questions you have asked.
I've never heard a dog user go through the effort of justifying his/her use
of a dog. Not once. Yeah, I'm sure it has happened somewhere, maybe even
here and I missed it. Dog people don't seem to look back and wonder as
much as cane people do, though. Don't know why that happens to be the
case.
--
Uucp: ..!{decvax,oliveb}!bunker!hcap!hnews!129!90!Gary.Petraccaro
Internet: Gary.Petraccaro@f90.n129.z1.fidonet.orgGary.Petraccaro@f90.n129.z1.fidonet.org (Gary Petraccaro) (10/05/90)
Index Number: 10930
[This is from the Blink Talk Conference]
Walter,
You, of course, told Al exactly the way it is. It's just that the
cane travellers I know either can't here what your saying when they ask for
comparisons between dog and cane, or don't believe them unless they
actually witness the results for themselves.
--
Uucp: ..!{decvax,oliveb}!bunker!hcap!hnews!129!90!Gary.Petraccaro
Internet: Gary.Petraccaro@f90.n129.z1.fidonet.orgWilliam.Wilson@f89.n129.z1.fidonet.org (William Wilson) (10/05/90)
Index Number: 10931
[This is from the Blink Talk Conference]
WS> Now, with anything comes disadvantages, and you have to
WS> weigh them. The better cane traveler you are, the better dog
WS> traveler you will be.
Pop,
You make me proud!
You know, I am not one of those people who thinks that a guide dog
is the right route for every blink to take for mobility, or even that it
is necessarily right for the majority of blinks, but I know of very few
people, if any, who have used both a cane and a dog to any great extent
and who don't find traveling more efficient and easier with a dog!
Yeah, yeah, I hear a lot of people who say they are just as good a
traveler with a cane as any dog user they know, but this is, of course,
just conjecture on their part and not a fair comparison since it is
different individuals.
I certainly don't want this to turn into a guide dog versus cane
debate, cause frankly, from my experience, we are very close to talking
apples and oranges here. Like you said though, the better a cane
traveler one is, the better a dog traveler they become if they decide to
get one, and the image of a person being a good cane traveler and then
not being able to get around as well with a dog is ludicrous!
If those disadvantages we spoke about that go with having a dog
arn't worth it to you, or if like you, you don't travel a lot any more,
of course you shouldn't get a guide dog, but using comparisons of one's
cane abilities with other's dog abilities most definately ain't the
proper thing to do.
Hey Walter, you said you don't travel as much any more, and it just
occured to me that you met Strider a little over a year ago and got
along just fine! Hey, he was laid back when you met him then, you ought
to see him now! Maybe the two of you would be a perfect match!
Remember, he has sysop status on BlinkLink, so he could come to you with
a nice bundle of files too! Think about it pop, ok?
Willie
... Even if you're not the lead dog, the view can be interesting!
--
Uucp: ..!{decvax,oliveb}!bunker!hcap!hnews!129!89!William.Wilson
Internet: William.Wilson@f89.n129.z1.fidonet.orgWilliam.Wilson@f89.n129.z1.fidonet.org (William Wilson) (10/05/90)
Index Number: 10938
[This is from the Blink Talk Conference]
GP> meaningful perspective. All I can say, however, is that I
GP> never heard a dog user ask themselves the same questions you
GP> have asked. I've never heard a dog user go through the effort
GP> of justifying his/her use of a dog. Not once.
Gary,
That's because every dog user, and I do mean USER, not somebody who
goes and gets a well trained pet, is so sure they made the right
decision once they are out working their pooch, that traveling any other
way becomes inconceivable!
Ok, maybe that is just my experience, but I am pretty sure I have
a lot of company!
At risk of boring everybody who has heard this one, I'm going to
tell it again...
My first walk with Strider at Morristown wasn't exactly an earth
shattering experience for me. In fact, we were both so nervous that we
both just let out sighs of relief as we returned to the van, and said,
"Boy, am I glad we made it through that without losing life or limb!"
Well, it didn't take too many trips till we were feeling pretty
comfortable with each other, and one day as we were trotting along at a
steadily increasing pace, we got hung up between two old wobblies with
shopping carts on a narrow sidewalk. They were gabbing and gabbing to
each other, and wern't even aware that we were behind them, so not much
chance of us getting past.
Well, Strider was weaving slowly left to right, much like I used to
do when I raced motorcycles and got stuck behind the pack after I had
lapped them (Well, it makes a better story if I lap them than if they
lapped me, doesn't it?) looking for just a hint of a clear spot to make
our move. Well, the sidewalk must have widened for a minute, cause the
two elderly matrons separated just enough, Strider made his break, I
followed him perfectly, and we were on our way blowing exhaust fumes in
their faces! (No more windbreaker jokes please!)
Gary, I got a grin from ear to ear that they talked about for quite
a while at Seeing Eye, cause they knew right then and there that I was
going to have the time of my life! The closest thing I have ever had to
the thrill of a bike race was that morning at Seeing Eye, and I plan on
having it time, and time, and time again!
Willie
... Even if you're not the lead dog, the view can be interesting!
--
Uucp: ..!{decvax,oliveb}!bunker!hcap!hnews!129!89!William.Wilson
Internet: William.Wilson@f89.n129.z1.fidonet.org