[misc.handicap] Subway Safety

Peter.Brown@p0.f89.n129.z1.fidonet.org (Peter Brown) (09/20/90)

Index Number: 10512

[This is from the Blink Talk Conference]

there was an acident on the washington, d.c. metro (subway) where a 
blind person was killed a month ago.  this has led to some other 
members of the blind communicy  in the washington area to styart 
investigating the issue.  questions are being asked of how a person can 
be protected from walking off the platform and into the path of the 
fast moving subway car.  also we are looking into how to protect a 
person from walkinng in betwen the cars instead of finding the door and 
walking onto the car.  if anyone has any information i would like to be 
in touch by the board or leave me a private msg in the net mail area 
with a phone number and i will call you.  thanks in advance.  

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Al.Hoffman@p0.f143.n109.z1.fidonet.org (Al Hoffman) (09/21/90)

Index Number: 10580

[This is from the Blink Talk Conference]

Peter:
     Friday, the 14th I think, Amanda Lee, an employee here at IRS, did 
just what you were talking about--she fell inbetween the cars.  Luckily 
she didn't get "you know what,".  But, seems at least a plastic barrier 
coulde be put between the cars to prevent the person from thinking thats 
the door--it would only have to reflect sound mostly, and not blow 
off--doesn't sound too difficult to me.
     About the falling off the platform thing, well, that one seems more 
tricky, and we blind people do have to be careful--but you know some of 
the those stops are really loud, like sometimes at national airport the 
plane noise is more than the train noise, and ... well you could fall in 
if not paying enough attention.

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Tom.Gerhart@f210.n273.z1.fidonet.org (Tom Gerhart) (09/21/90)

Index Number: 10581

[This is from the Blink Talk Conference]

Hi Peter,
Why not start with getting better mobility for anybody who wants it.  I
think that most accidents can be avoided if blind people are paying
attention to where they are and if they are really not sure, just ask
someone.  We don't need textured sidewalks and that kind of stuff just
more time spent learning to use a cane or paying attention to your dog
if you have one. tom  G

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Dan.Kysor@f11.n203.z1.fidonet.org (Dan Kysor) (09/21/90)

Index Number: 10590

[This is from the Blink Talk Conference]

peter, i am an experienced user of the bay area rapid transit
system in the S.F. Bay Area.  Many of the bart stations have a
tactile tile edge about 2 feet wide.  this helps especially if you
are a cane user.  my guide dog used to walk on this surface
thinking it was the thing to do... out of sight out of mind.
Regarding spaces between subway trains, New York blind groups are
pushing Con Rail to install wooden fences between the cars.  i've
been back there and rode them before.  the part that worries me is
getting hit by thos wooden stairs as they come up to the
platform... ouch!!

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Walter.Siren.@p1.f8.n396.z1.fidonet.org (Walter Siren ) (09/25/90)

Index Number: 10627

[This is from the Blink Talk Conference]

 TG>  Why not start with getting better mobility for anybody who wants it.  
 TG>  I think that most accidents can be avoided if blind people are paying
 TG>  attention to where they are and if they are really not sure, just ask
 TG>  someone.  We don't need textured sidewalks and that kind of stuff 

tom, i think that all blind people should get as much mobility
training as they need; however, i don't think that we can get too
much in the manner of safety precautions as we can.  some blind
persons are not as mobile as others, and if we can save a life with
texture sidewalks or other markings, why not?  i am not use to
traveling in subways, since we don't have them down here, but any
extra help i could get, i wouldn't mind, with all of that noise in
there.

 TG>  just
 TG>  more time spent learning to use a cane or paying attention to your 
 TG>  dog
 TG>  if you have one. tom  G

again, i know a lot of blind people that are not as mobile as i am,
and i won't begrudge them of any necessary help.

               Walter               

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Gary.Petraccaro@f90.n129.z1.fidonet.org (Gary Petraccaro) (10/02/90)

Index Number: 10706

[This is from the Blink Talk Conference]

Walter,

     I understand that you wouldn't want to "begrudge" anyone blink of any
reasonable help.  How do we distinguish between reasonable help and
attempting to idiot-proof something?  Seems like more and more I don't ever
hear something like the word accident without someone wanting to be able to
place blame along with it.

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Dan.Kysor@f11.n203.z1.fidonet.org (Dan Kysor) (10/02/90)

Index Number: 10712

[This is from the Blink Talk Conference]

hey, let's be real.  sure, you can give all the mobility training
you want to some but they'll never be proficient travellers.  face
it, many of the blind populous have spacial orientation
difficulties and why remove safety precautions like tactal strips
from these people.  sighted people have many aids to help them be
more safe in our world, why exclude people who would need the help
from these tactle aids.  it's like theres one group who feels that
tactile strips inhibit employment of the blind, that's a lot of
that stuff you find on pastures...

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Darrell.Shandrow@f7.n300.z1.fidonet.org (Darrell Shandrow) (10/02/90)

Index Number: 10726

[This is from the Blink Talk Conference]

I'm not sure we should be asking the Subway companies to make such major
modifications.  Like i think someone has already stated, the blind need
appropriate mobility skills and need to pay attention to whats going on
while travelling.
 

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Jeff.Salzberg@f729.n106.z1.fidonet.org (Jeff Salzberg) (10/02/90)

Index Number: 10729

[This is from the Blink Talk Conference]

 DK> many of the blind populous have spacial 
 DK> orientation difficulties and why remove safety precautions like 
 DK> tactal strips from these people.  sighted people have many aids 
 DK> to help them be more safe in our world, why exclude people who

 Many subway systems have a strip of differently-colored tile along the
 edge of the platform as sort of a warning track.  A tactile strip would
 be merely an extension of this approach - a broadening of it, to
 provide for blind travellers a service the system is already providing
 for sighted ones.

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Dan.Kysor@f11.n203.z1.fidonet.org (Dan Kysor) (10/02/90)

Index Number: 10738

[This is from the Blink Talk Conference]

most subway "companies" are in fact, municipalities and are funded
by you and i, the taxpayers.  as "i" mentioned earlier, if sighted
people can expect safety mechanisms in their daily travels, why
shouldn't the blind?

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William.Wilson@p0.f89.n129.z1.fidonet.org (William Wilson) (10/02/90)

Index Number: 10744

[This is from the Blink Talk Conference]

 JS>  Many subway systems have a strip of differently-colored tile 
 JS>  along the edge of the platform as sort of a warning track.  A 
 JS>  tactile strip would be merely an extension of this approach - 

Jeffrey,
     I was watching channel 9 out of New York the other day for my daily
shot of inane nonsence, and on a talk show they discussed the awarding
of 9 million dollars to some guy who fell off the platform and lost an
arm!
     Not only did it come out in court that there were plenty of
warnings for the people on the platform, the guy admitted to being drunk
as a monkey!
     Amazing to me that a jury could award such a settlement to someone
so obviously at fault for his situation, but even more amazing that some
blinks think asking that a minor adaptation be made by the transit
authorities to help us out is unreasonable or inappropriate!
                                        Willie
     

... BlinkTalk, Dr. Deb and Silver in Pittsburgh!

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Gary.Petraccaro@f90.n129.z1.fidonet.org (Gary Petraccaro) (10/02/90)

Index Number: 10748

[This is from the Blink Talk Conference]

Willie,

     Jeff's message helped change my thinking on that one.  Never realized
that there were differently colored tiles along the platform's edge.

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David.Andrews@p0.f89.n129.z1.fidonet.org (David Andrews) (10/02/90)

Index Number: 10765

[This is from the Blink Talk Conference]

 PB> there was an acident on the washington, d.c. metro (subway)  
 PB> where a blind person was killed a month ago.  this has led to  
 PB> some other members of the blind communicy  in the washington  
 PB> area to styart investigating the issue.  questions are being  
 PB> asked of how a person can be protected from walking off the  
 PB> platform and into the path of the fast moving subway car.  also  
 PB> we are looking into how to protect a person from walkinng in  
 PB> betwen the cars instead of finding the door and walking onto  
 PB> the car.  if anyone has any information i would like to be in  
 PB> touch by the board or leave me a private msg in the net mail  
 PB> area with a phone number and i will call you.  thanks in  
 PB> advance. 
 

Peter,  It is certainly a tragedy when someone is killed in a
public transit accident.  However, when a blind person is killed,
or injured, in such an accident all of us, blind and sighted alike,
tend to assume that it happened because the person was blind.  This
may or may not be true.  It would be interesting to see what
percentage of blind and sighted people get injured in these
accidents.  My first point is that maybe per capita our rate is no
higher.

Secondly, it is impossible to make the world totally safe for blind
or sighted people.  What would you do, put up rainings all along
the platform.  I think that many blind people in this country have
not had proper or adequate travel training.  If more people got
good training, then less accidents would happen.  I have heard of
at least one state orientation center where travel students as
their final route go around the block.  That is not good travel
training.  This center is in a major city, so to leave after your
training, you must take public transit, something they do not teach
all their students to do.  If a person has had good training, and
exercises reasonable care and attention while traveling, I believe
that he or she is no more likely to be injured then a sighted
person.  By raising peoples fears, and creating the need for all
kinds of special accomodations, it becomes difficult for all of us
to move ahead and take our place in society as equals.  David
Andrews

... Your Sound Alternative

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Dan.Kysor@f11.n203.z1.fidonet.org (Dan Kysor) (10/03/90)

Index Number: 10830

[This is from the Blink Talk Conference]

i know that i disagree with some on tactile strips but i have seen
simular instances where blind people take advantage.  i know a gal
in the bay area who ignored her dog's warning and fell into the b a
r t tracks and sewed the bart district and won!!  another incident
on the same subway system, another person  who's dog pushed the
master to keep her from falling in the tracks, recieved a stern
kick in the side and both ended up in the tracks... amazing!  this
kind of stuff really gets me downright mad...

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Tom.Gerhart@f722.n273.z1.fidonet.org (Tom Gerhart) (10/03/90)

Index Number: 10832

[This is from the Blink Talk Conference]

HI Dan,

I think the question is whether if extra measures are provided does that
reenforce the idea to the general public that we are not able to travil
where these kinds of things are not provided. I can see both sides of
the question. tom G

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Walter.Siren.@p18.f5.n396.z1.fidonet.org (Walter Siren ) (10/03/90)

Index Number: 10840

[This is from the Blink Talk Conference]

 TG>  I think the question is whether if extra measures are provided does 
 TG>  that
 TG>  reenforce the idea to the general public that we are not able to 
 TG>  travil

If you use that philosophy, than we should not need extra helps in
the work force, because that would renforce there idea that we are
not able to hold a job. As was pointed out by some one that there
are different collored blocks by the subway for sighted people to
see.  Also don't they have a white line down the middle of the
highway to keep cars on their side of the road.

               Walter

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Walter.Siren.@p18.f5.n396.z1.fidonet.org (Walter Siren ) (10/03/90)

Index Number: 10843

[This is from the Blink Talk Conference]

 DS>  That special tactile stuff makes us look inferrior to the sighted.  

     No just realistic.

                    Walter

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Dan.Kysor@f11.n203.z1.fidonet.org (Dan Kysor) (10/03/90)

Index Number: 10866

[This is from the Blink Talk Conference]

i think the thumb of rule should always be "public safety" and
other considerations are secondary.  would you rather see a person
employed or crunched by a subway.  in fact, employment and
modifications are not mutually exclusive.  these organizations who
tie the two together are clouding the issue.

i do feel that more thought needs to be made when cities and
counties put audible lights in where there're not needed and when
tactile strips are put in where not needed.  here in sacramento,
there are many star and dangerous t intersections but the only
places which have tactile edges are downtown grid intersections,
where virtually no blind person has no problems.  was that a run on
sentence!  oh well... chow for now

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Dan.Kysor@f11.n203.z1.fidonet.org (Dan Kysor) (10/03/90)

Index Number: 10869

[This is from the Blink Talk Conference]

being dead makes you look even more inferior!!!

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Jeff.Salzberg@f729.n106.z1.fidonet.org (Jeff Salzberg) (10/05/90)

Index Number: 10933

[This is from the Blink Talk Conference]

 DS> That special tactile stuff makes us look inferrior to the 
 DS> sighted.

 No, it doesn't; only your PERCEPTION of it does.

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Paula.Mack@f6.n377.z1.fidonet.org (Paula Mack) (10/10/90)

Index Number: 10998

[This is from the Blink Talk Conference]

 DS> That special tactile stuff makes us look inferrior to the 
 DS> sighted.  

I guess that means that because they need light in order to function,
they look inferior to us.  And of course, how we "look" to the sighted
is more imprtant than our safety.

Paula

... Xpress Yourself!

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William.Wilson@p0.f89.n129.z1.fidonet.org (William Wilson) (10/10/90)

Index Number: 11001

[This is from the Blink Talk Conference]

 >  DS> That special tactile stuff makes us look inferrior to the
 >  DS> sighted.
 
Paula,
    Tell the truth now...What 3 letters come to mind when you read 
statements like the one above that Darrell left?
 
 > I guess that means that because they need light in order
 > to function,
 > they look inferior to us.  And of course, how we "look"
 > to the sighted
 > is more imprtant than our safety.

You know, the one thing that bugs me about the tired, old philosophy 
so commonly spit out by blinks who subscribe to the NFB doctrine 
is that it so often professes a knowledge of what sighted folks think, 
and yet from this former winks perspective, they're just plain wrong!

     Darrell, their just ain't no way a sighted person would look 
at tactile tiles and say, "Oh, them poor blind people!"  Not only 
would this not happen if they actually knew what the tactile tiles 
were for, by far most of them wouldn't even notice them or recognize 
their particular purpose!

    Look, I know I'm opening myself up for the rath of you fully 
convinced NFB types, but picturing completely unrealistic scenarios 
of how the sighted world would picture us because of a few adaptations 
made to the environment in order to help equalize things for us a 
bit seems to be a common practice of your favorite organization, 
and it does tend to get a little old to me!

     I wonder if the wheel chair people have a similar group 
representing their needs who advocates the tearing out of wheelchair 
ramps and lowered door handles and drinking fountains, or if the 
deaf community has someone trying to remove the closed captioning 
from tv shows, or at least the public announcement that the broadcasting 
station makes of the service?
 
     Despite what you may hear from others Darrell, I just don't 
think the whole sighted world is out to get us, or to discriminate 
against us, or even to perceive us as inadequate because something 
like floor tiles with bumps on them can be used by us as an extra 
safety precaution.

     Paula has convinced me, however, to take all the damn light 
bulbs out of this apartment till we get those bumpy tiles in the 
subways, and thus I am announcing the
"Bump for a Bulb" campaign!
Donations gratefully accepted at BlinkLink Inc.   170 Lincoln Ave. 
 Pittsburgh, PA 15202.
                                        Willie

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Gary.Petraccaro@f90.n129.z1.fidonet.org (Gary Petraccaro) (10/10/90)

Index Number: 11004

[This is from the Blink Talk Conference]

     If making us look inferior is the main point what's the difference
between special tactile strips and the ADA?

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Tom.Gerhart@f722.n273.z1.fidonet.org (Tom Gerhart) (10/10/90)

Index Number: 11049

[This is from the Blink Talk Conference]

Paula,

YOu did not quote the next part of the mesg, which said something to the
effect that the only question I have is would people think that blind
people could not travel where these aids were not available. tom G

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Jeff.Salzberg@f729.n106.z1.fidonet.org (Jeff Salzberg) (10/10/90)

Index Number: 11052

[This is from the Blink Talk Conference]

 DS> I'm not sure we should be asking the Subway companies to make 
 DS> such major modifications.

 Imbedding tactile strips is hardly a major modification.

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Jeff.Salzberg@f729.n106.z1.fidonet.org (Jeff Salzberg) (10/10/90)

Index Number: 11053

[This is from the Blink Talk Conference]

 PM> I guess that means that because they need light in order to 
 PM> function, they look inferior to us.

 I ocassionally remind Cheryl that we sighted people need assistive
 viewing devices...like lamps.

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Henry.Kasten@f10.n130.z1.fidonet.org (Henry Kasten) (10/13/90)

Index Number: 11088

[This is from the Blink Talk Conference]

Hey Willie, what's this about being an N F B type?  I think safety 
precautions are essential for all our well being.  But, "extra" 
precautions are usally a waste of effort and funds.  Hang the way people 
look at us, that is a philosphy adhered to by many blinks regardless of 
their affiliation.  I personally am concerned about how I look in public. 
 That is my business, I am amazed, however, at the large number of Blinks 
who do not care.  Just because you can not see yourself in the mirror 
doesn't mean you should go around looking like a fat slob.  Certainly I 
don't subscribe to the Darryll Syndrome that we look inferior if we need 
some help, I do believe, however, that appearance is critical to how you 
will be treated by the general public.If I have offended anybody out 
there because they are fat or choose not made themselves presentable, 
well, they shouldn't be!  That is their own choice, not mine.  You can 
sit around all day long and do nothing and get fat or you can do 
something about it.  There are no, I repeat no excuses for letting 
yourself go.  Quadroplegics can do exercizes to help them.  There are 
exercizes any of can do no matter what disablity we have.  Whew, Boy. 
Man did I ever get another of my soap boxes.  Oh well, Iguess it is 
better than railing about the loss of Civil rights to the airlines.  Hey 
Willie, I went sky diving this past weekend.  Man was it ever thrilling, 
you have never done anything untill you hear a german shepherd scream at 
10000 feet. (grin)  Henry

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William.Wilson@f88.n129.z1.fidonet.org (William Wilson) (10/17/90)

Index Number: 11144

[This is from the Blink Talk Conference]

 > being.  But, "extra" precautions are usally a waste of
 > effort and funds.  Hang the way people look at us, that
 > is a philosphy adhered to by many blinks regardless of their
 > affiliation.  I personally am concerned about how I look
 > in public.  That is my business, I am amazed, however,
 > at the large number of Blinks who do not care.
 
Henry,
    Yes, the cost of the additional safety precautions afforded us 
should be considered, and I did just that before leaving my message 
about the tactile tiles!  I know somebody is going to respond with 
some figures about such a thing costing multibucks, and I can accept 
the fact that any modification to the subway stations wouldn't be a 
drop in the bucket by our standards, but relatively speaking, compared 
to budget allocations made daily for other things that couldn't possibly 
do something as important as saving a life, I think it would be a pittance!
     So far as how we appear in public, I couldn't agree with you more! 

 I don't know where I said otherwise, cause I think we're talking about 

2 totally different things here, but I want to assure everyone that 
yes, I bathe regularly, I weigh under 300 pounds, and the ladies of 
the evening that hang out on Liberty Avenue here in our fine city still 
solicit me, so I must not be totally repulsive!  Excuse me for being 
so defensive, but I just don't understand why my original message should 
have provoked you to think that I am not concerned with how I look 
in public, be I a blink or a wink!

 > rights to the airlines.  Hey Willie, I went sky diving
 > this past weekend.  Man was it ever thrilling, you have
 > never done anything untill you hear a german shepherd scream
 > at 10000 feet.
Ok Henry, just for that one, which I will steal as my own everytime 
I get a chance, I'll forgive you!
                                        Willie

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Bill.Koppelmann@f114.n104.z1.fidonet.org (Bill Koppelmann) (10/17/90)

Index Number: 11145

[This is from the Blink Talk Conference]

Paula, I found your remarks on subway safety to be most interesting, 
however, i apply the same logic to this question that I do about audible 
stoplights.  Surely they aren't gonna put those safety strips everywhere, and 
if you get used to them when you are faced again with a situation where they 
aren't there, aren't you going to begin to rely on them and then maybe really 
hurt yourself because you weren't alerted to where the edge of the platform 
was?  I've ridden these trains many times when I lived in Chicago, and I can 
tell you that the results can be tragic when you aren't paying attention.  I 
know, I fell off an elevated platform once and I'll tell you that the reason 
was that I just wasn't using my cane properly.  
Bill.

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Internet: Bill.Koppelmann@f114.n104.z1.fidonet.org

Stu.Turk@f26.n129.z1.fidonet.org (Stu Turk) (10/17/90)

Index Number: 11153

[This is from the Blink Talk Conference]

This "Subway Saftey" msg chain has been going on for a while now.
But, unless I missed it, I haven't seen anyone post that their can
should tell them there is no step there (and therefor, it must be
the space between cars).  I rap my cane agains the step of the bus
or subway car before steping on.

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Internet: Stu.Turk@f26.n129.z1.fidonet.org

William.Wilson@f88.n129.z1.fidonet.org (William Wilson) (10/17/90)

Index Number: 11156

[This is from the Blink Talk Conference]

 >    This "Subway Saftey" msg chain has been going on for
 > a while now.  But, unless I missed it, I haven't seen anyone
 > post that their can should tell them there is no step there
 > (and therefor, it must be the space between cars).
 
Stu,
     Yes, I admit that it is a little difficult for me to understand 
the problem with recognizing the end of the platform, but since I never 
rode on a subway, and since the problem seems far too common, I assume 
that a little assistance in the form of tactile tiles wouldn't hurt.

    What I really want to know though is, do those of you who worry 
about our image being negatively affected by tactile tiles likewise 
think that the braille they are putting in many of the elevators in 
our fine city should be avoided for similar reasons?

     Funny how we can view some things as allowing us to be more independant, 
and others as making us look inferior to our sighted peers!
                                        Willie

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Dan.Kysor@f11.n203.z1.fidonet.org (Dan Kysor) (10/23/90)

Index Number: 11216

[This is from the Blink Talk Conference]

the problem with many of the audible traffic lights is their placed
in controlled intersections and often not placed in 3 way, "t" or
star intersections where they should be placed.  Standards should
be adopted for placement of these audible lights.  In san francisco
by the lighthouse for the blind, there is a perfectly controlled
"grid" type intersection with the most obnoxious buzzing light in
the world.  i've often thought "what about the rest of this town?"
I am for them but properly placed and with a decent "chirp" that
wouldn't impact the neighborhood.  i'd hate to live next to that
buzzing light by the lighthouse, for that matter, i'd hate to live
in that neighborhood!!

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Internet: Dan.Kysor@f11.n203.z1.fidonet.org

Scott.Howell@f521.n109.z1.fidonet.org (Scott Howell) (10/23/90)

Index Number: 11224

[This is from the Blink Talk Conference]

 >To: William Wilson
 >
 >   This "Subway Saftey" msg chain has been going on for a while now.  But,
 >unless I missed it, I haven't seen anyone post that their can should tell
 >them there is no step there (and therefor, it must be the space between
 >cars).  I rap my cane agains the step of the bus or subway car before
 >steping on.

     I will say this.  I ride the Metro Rail system everyday here in D.C. 
and have had no problems.  If you step before you sweep the area well, that 
is poor cane technique and you will pay for that mistake.  Sorry folks I 
feel that with proper training and care you won't need many special mods to 
a subway.

                                  Scott

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barbour@boulder.colorado.edu (Jim Barbour) (10/24/90)

Index Number: 11235

The REAL problem with audible traffic signals is that they are not
really needed.  Any blind person can learn to cross a street at an
intersection without an audible traffic signal.  Once they've
learned, they'll be able to cross ANY intersection, not just ones
with the obnoxious signals.

On top of which, once you know how to cross streets without
signals, the noise becomes a real distraction for blind people who
are trying to listen to traffic.

Jim Barbour

Gary.Petraccaro@f90.n129.z1.fidonet.org (Gary Petraccaro) (10/24/90)

Index Number: 11251

[This is from the Blink Talk Conference]

Bill,

     You're right about being responsible, but we just haven't asked enough
questions about the situation as a whole.  I mean things like, do we have
newer cars which are noiser, has the environment changed some way or other.
 The only times I can see a real hazard bare those when either one is alone
and trying like hell to get out of a frightening place (aka subway at
night), or one of those situations when 2 trains cross paths (one stopping,
the other going on or stopping).  In either situation, especially the
latter, cues may be at a minimum.  What times did these people die?  Were
either of my hypothesized most dangerous situations in effect?  We really
do have to know more.

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Internet: Gary.Petraccaro@f90.n129.z1.fidonet.org

Patrick.Gormley@f432.n109.z1.fidonet.org (Patrick Gormley) (10/24/90)

Index Number: 11250

[This is from the Blink Talk Conference]

paula the problems with those safety tiles is that if the station is 
above ground and the temperature remains below 32 degrees for any length 
of time, they won't adhere and will eventually come off the surfact they 
are glued to.  The real key is to find a cane that has a sensitive 
enough of a tip to allow you to distinguish between the two.  I myself 
also use a 63 inch cane that gives me plenty of room to stop should I be 
walking fast.  Invariably mobility instructors give people canes that 
are too short.

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Internet: Patrick.Gormley@f432.n109.z1.fidonet.org

Tom.Gerhart@f210.n273.z1.fidonet.org (Tom Gerhart) (10/26/90)

Index Number: 11284

[This is from the Blink Talk Conference]

 PM> Well, I know what you mean, but I think that the safety issue 
 PM> is a lot more important than what people think.

Paula,
Iagree with you about the safety issue but what people think is
important when it comes time to look for a job nad the employer says he
does not think you could do the job because there were not special cues
on the sidewalks around his plant. just a thought. tom G..

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Internet: Tom.Gerhart@f210.n273.z1.fidonet.org

Walter.Siren@p18.f5.n396.z1.fidonet.org (Walter Siren) (10/26/90)

Index Number: 11285

[This is from the Blink Talk Conference]

 PM> Well, I know what you mean, but I think that the safety issue 
 PM> is a lot more important than what people think.

 TG> Paula,
 TG> Iagree with you about the safety issue but what people think is
 TG> important when it comes time to look for a job nad the employer 
 TG> says he
 TG> does not think you could do the job because there were not 
 TG> special cues
 TG> on the sidewalks around his plant. just a thought. tom G..

Any employer who stoops to using that will find some other reason
not tohire you.  Don't think that will hold water.

               Walter 

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Al.Hoffman@p0.f143.n109.z1.fidonet.org (Al Hoffman) (10/26/90)

Index Number: 11286

[This is from the Blink Talk Conference]

Okay--its like this:
     To put it bluntly, we should make the subway system idiot proof, 
just like well written sofware, so it won't do harm unless pushed so far 
that there is no way out.  Make it so that the person has to actively 
jump right under the poor train or whatever.  I am not for protectionism 
for the stupid, but we have to make up our minds if we are gonna either 
protect or take the losses and not cry over them.  At present American 
soeciety says we should do the protectionism thing, because we like to 
cry over the losses too much.  Thats fine if applied equally.
     WEll, later on--I'm out of here for the moment.

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Scott.Howell@f521.n109.z1.fidonet.org (Scott Howell) (10/26/90)

Index Number: 11287

[This is from the Blink Talk Conference]

 >To: William Wilson
 >
 >   This "Subway Saftey" msg chain has been going on for a while now.  But,
 >unless I missed it, I haven't seen anyone post that their can should tell
 >them there is no step there (and therefor, it must be the space between
 >cars).  I rap my cane agains the step of the bus or subway car before
 >steping on.

     I will say this.  I ride the Metro Rail system everyday here in D.C. 
and have had no problems.  If you step before you sweep the area well, that 
is poor cane technique and you will pay for that mistake.  Sorry folks I 
feel that with proper training and care you won't need many special mods to 
a subway.

                                  Scott

--
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Internet: Scott.Howell@f521.n109.z1.fidonet.org

Bill.Koppelmann@f810.n104.z1.fidonet.org (Bill Koppelmann) (10/26/90)

Index Number: 11289

[This is from the Blink Talk Conference]

Paula, maybe what y9ou are saying is correct, but I find it interesting 
that the only place I have everr heard of safety strips on el's or 
subways is in New York.  I don't think Chicago has any, and since 
there's an NFBer on the cta managerial staff, I doubt that it'll ever 
happen.  So, it seems to me that we're down to one question, shouldn't 
it be up to the blind person using their cane to be alert to the fact 
the mode of transportation they're using can be inherently dangerous 
and it might behoove them to be cautious?  As I have said before, I 
don't blame anyone for the incident that happened to me, but you can 
bet that if I'm on a platform ever again I'm gonna be a damn sight more 
carefull than I've been in the past. To me, that's the bottom line.  
It's not up to me to speak for other blind people or to cast 
aspersions, but for me, I know what works for my own safety.
Bill K.

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Ted.Young@p0.f89.n129.z1.fidonet.org (Ted Young) (10/26/90)

Index Number: 11291

[This is from the Blink Talk Conference]

What I really want to know though is, do those of you who worry
about our image being negatively affected by tactile tiles likewise
think that the braille they are putting in many of the elevators in
our fine city should be avoided for similar reasons?

Willie:  the problem is that the edge of a platform is easily
distinguishable with a cane, the difference between an open car
door and the space between cars is easily distinguishable by a
cane, which button to push on an elevator and what floor the
elevator has reached are not so easily distinguishable as the
button set ups vary.  Aside from asking for what is not needed, to
ask for an unneeded travel aid is indeed to suggest less
capabilities than we have, to ask for Braille markings at least
shows the public we can read, and, by the way, not many of the
public believe that.  Ted

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Daniel.Murphy@f165.n101.z1.fidonet.org (Daniel Murphy) (10/26/90)

Index Number: 11296

[This is from the Blink Talk Conference]

H Darrell, I live in the boston area, and I have an audible traffic signal 
fairly near my house. It also just happens to be close to the Mass 
Association For The Blind, so that may have something to do with it. It's 
usefull, but I wonder when a local municipality installs one of those, how 
much input to they take from local blind pedestrians as to the design, and 
sound to be emitted by the audible device. In short, might it be better if 
we, that is blind people, had more of a say in the actual design of these 
systems?

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Lee.Kerr@f7.n300.z1.fidonet.org (Lee Kerr) (10/26/90)

Index Number: 11310

[This is from the Blink Talk Conference]

I think that buzzers and whistles on trafic signals are a pain in the
neck.  They make it hard for me to hgar the trafic and besidees that, they 
are not something we need, they cant put one on every corner, and if they
did, it sure would be interesting trying to tell one from anotxer. 

--
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Jeff.Salzberg@f729.n106.z1.fidonet.org (Jeff Salzberg) (10/26/90)

Index Number: 11311

[This is from the Blink Talk Conference]

If tactile strips were installed on subway platforms, 99% of sighted
riders would not realise the purpose of said strips.  Unless there were
an inordinate amount of publicity accompanying the installation, few
sighted employers would even know that tactile strips exist; even fewer
would use the lack of same as an excuse to not hire blind employees.

--
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Internet: Jeff.Salzberg@f729.n106.z1.fidonet.org

Ted.Filteau@f460.n101.z1.fidonet.org (Ted Filteau) (10/26/90)

Index Number: 11313

[This is from the Blink Talk Conference]

 DM>   In short, might it
 DM> be better if we, that is blind people, had more of a say in the 
 DM> actual design of these systems? ---
     
Hi Dan,  I picked your message to jump into this thread.
I use the boston system a good deal, and have found it getting harder
over the past twenty years or so.  The new stations use longer trains,
and put one on a center strip between trains.  They also do things like
puting benches in the middle of the strip at angles.  I don't think many
blind people were asked about these kinds of "modernizations."
If the original designs were beter, we wouldn't be having this message
thread on the echo.

... Ted

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Paula.Mack@f6.n377.z1.fidonet.org (Paula Mack) (10/31/90)

Index Number: 11381

[This is from the Blink Talk Conference]

 PM>> Well, I know what you mean, but I think that the safety issue 
 TG> Iagree with you about the safety issue but what people think is
 TG> important when it comes time to look for a job nad the employer 
 TG> says he does not think you could do the job because there were 
 TG> not special cues on the sidewalks around his plant. just a 
 TG> thought. tom G.. 

Hi Tom,

I agree with you that we can't ask for so many accommodations that we
become burdensome, but I don't think the analogy between sidewalks and
subways is a valid one.  Too many blind people have been maimed or
killed to make light of it, and there is no real danger on a sidewalk.

Paula

... Press F1 to Reboot

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Jeff.Salzberg@f729.n106.z1.fidonet.org (Jeff Salzberg) (10/31/90)

Index Number: 11384

[This is from the Blink Talk Conference]

 DS> But just remember that
 DS> employers will think we are unequals because we must hav3e3 
 DS> those audible traffic lights.

 Darrell, few sighted employers would even be aware of the existence of
 audible traffic signals; fewer still would realise their purpose.

 Why do you feel it appropriate to make gross generalizations about
 sighted people?  Would you accept similar generalizations about blind
 people?  I think not.

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Lee.Kerr@f7.n300.z1.fidonet.org (Lee Kerr) (10/31/90)

Index Number: 11396

[This is from the Blink Talk Conference]

I think the public see those beeping trafic signals as anether crutch. 
the federation dose not like them.

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Bill.Koppelmann@f114.n104.z1.fidonet.org (Bill Koppelmann) (10/31/90)

Index Number: 11400

[This is from the Blink Talk Conference]

Jeff, I think your logic about subway strips may have something to be said 
for it, however, I'm not sure I'm convinced.  All we need is for some nosy 
news station to make a big to do about it.  Also, isn't it possible that 
the transit companies may well wish to get some good pr out of it?
 
Bill K.

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William.Wilson@f89.n129.z1.fidonet.org (William Wilson) (10/31/90)

Index Number: 11403

[This is from the Blink Talk Conference]

 LK> I think the public see those beeping trafic signals as anether 
 LK> crutch. the federation dose not like them.

Lee,
    As a former member of "the public", I would like to say that it was
a very long time before I ever even knew what those beeps were all
about!  We've had them here at particularly dangerous intersections in
Pittsburgh for a very, very long time, and even when I finally did find
out what they were all about, the word "crutch" never entered my mind!
    Please don't mistake this as my being in favor of them in general,
for indeed, at at least one of the intersections that I now travel as a
blink where one is present, I find it more of an annoyance than
anything.  At others, however, I've taught more than a couple of sighted
people how they can be used to make a safe crossing, and they seemed to
think that they could help them as well!

     What really interests me about your message, however, is the "the
Federation doesn't like them" statement.  For some reason, I notice that
a few of you keep leaving comments like that, and it sort of sounds like
putting the cart before the horse to me!  I mean, it appears like you
are basing your own opinion upon what the NFB says it should be rather
than vice-versa.

     Please, tell me, who is the NFB, how does he or she manage to tell
the membership what its opinion is rather than it telling he or she what
their opinion should be, and why is it, although I know this exists to
some degree with every organization of this type, it sticks out like a
sore thumb in the NFB?

     Note:  This is not intended to be a slam the NFB message, but these
things have been bothering me for a long time, and I would like to hear
some rational, thought provoking explanations!
                                        Willie
 

... Even if you're not the lead dog, the view can be interesting!

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Ted.Young@p0.f89.n129.z1.fidonet.org (Ted Young) (10/31/90)

Index Number: 11414

[This is from the Blink Talk Conference]

In a message to Tom Gerhart Jeff Salzberg wrote:
"If tactile strips were installed on subway platforms, 99% of sighted
riders would not realise the purpose of said strips.  Unless there were
an inordinate amount of publicity accompanying the installation, few
sighted employers would even know that tactile strips exist; even fewer
would use the lack of same as an excuse to not hire blind employees."
Maybe so Jeff but there are at least two questions left.

1.  Would those strips help blind travelers?  I have seen a lot of
people taking this for granted.  If you can't pick up the edge of
the platform with your cane would you really be able to detect such
a strip?  Further, those strips have nothing at all to do with
blind people stepping between cars.  As some sage pointed out here,
you use your cane to feel for a step or a floor before you step.
Yes, I am a daily subway traveler.

2.  Whether or not the strips would be noticed by everybody, what
about the cumulative affect of spreading around unwanted and
unneeded adaptations.  Surely you would agree that eventually most
people would draw some incorrect and unhealthy conclusions about
the needs of blind people.

Ted

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Ted.Young@p0.f89.n129.z1.fidonet.org (Ted Young) (10/31/90)

Index Number: 11415

[This is from the Blink Talk Conference]

In a message Gary Petraccaro states:
" GP>  complicated stations, and I need a reminder.  What chances are
 GP>  there that someone might mistake the drop off a platform for 
 GP>  steps leading down to another level? For anyone in 
 GP>  Philadelphia, I'm thinking of 130th Street and/or 15th and 
 GP>  Market.  I haven't been to either in quite a long time."

Gary, you'd really have to work at mistaking the edge of the
platform for steps in any Elevated or Subway station.  Usually you
don't hear a subway whizzing in front of you on stairs.

Ted

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Ted.Filteau@f460.n101.z1.fidonet.org (Ted Filteau) (10/31/90)

Index Number: 11420

[This is from the Blink Talk Conference]

 JS>but may I suggest that all
 JS> participants in the "subway" thread include in their remarks a 
 JS> statement as to whether or not they have experienced a subway JS>
 system as a blink?

Right on Jeff,
I was beginning to think that subway systems were more wide spread than
I had imagined.  I use the Boston system, and I find my ideas as a user
run more to the practical than the theoretical.

     

... Ted

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Daniel.Murphy@p0.f460.n101.z1.fidonet.org (Daniel Murphy) (10/31/90)

Index Number: 11421

[This is from the Blink Talk Conference]

Also consider that I always thought they were putting those
audibles at certain intersections for the convenience of blind
travelers. I don't know, for instance, why the one out here is
actually here, accept that it is extremely close to the
Massachusetts Association For The Blind.
They have a residential program for retarded blind people, and
maybe they felt that th"re was a safety issue involved. It
didn't just pop up there by magic.

 

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Bill.Koppelmann@f810.n104.z1.fidonet.org (Bill Koppelmann) (11/02/90)

Index Number: 11459

[This is from the Blink Talk Conference]

Lee, I happen to be a Federation member, and while I might not tow the 
line on everything, I do say that I agree with that one.  I can't say 
from my own experience whether the public actually does make the 
transition in their minds from audible stoplights to incompetant blind 
folks, but I wouldn't want to rule it out.
Oh, I forgot to ask you something when we were talking about 
Versabraille use.  When you get my message, do you read it in braille 
grade 2, or can you only do that in certain modes?
 
Bill K.

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Jeff.Salzberg@f729.n106.z1.fidonet.org (Jeff Salzberg) (11/02/90)

Index Number: 11470

[This is from the Blink Talk Conference]

 LK>> the federation dose not like them.
 WS> 
 WS> 
 WS>      What does the federation like anyway?

 You don't understand.  If the federation doesn't like them, we're all
 supposed to get into line and agree without complaining - and CERTAINLY
 without thinking for ourselves.

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Paula.Mack@f6.n377.z1.fidonet.org (Paula Mack) (11/02/90)

Index Number: 11473

[This is from the Blink Talk Conference]

 PG> paula the problems with those safety tiles is that if the 
 PG> station is above ground and the temperature remains below 32 
 PG> degrees for any length of time, they won't adhere and will 
 PG> eventually come off the surfact they are glued to.

I didn't know that about the subway tiles, but maybe they could be made
of a more weather-resistant material.

 PG> key is to find a cane that has a sensitive enough of a tip to 
 PG> allow you to distinguish between the two.  I myself also use a 
 PG> 63 inch cane that gives me plenty of room to stop should I be 
 PG> walking fast.  Invariably mobility instructors give people 
 PG> canes that are too short. 

As far as the issue of the long vs. the short cane, I agree with you
there.  I remember when I was a teenager living in NY and having a big
argument with the people at the Lighthouse store because I wanted to buy
a cane that they insisted was way too long.

However, I still think that people shouldn't have to pay for having poor
mobility skills with their lives.  Think of all the incompetent sighted
people that live their lives unhindered, and the blind should be able to
be just as incompetent.

Please don't missunderstand:  idon't wish for us to be incompetent at
anything.  I wish all of us could reach our potential in every way, but
I just feel that if someone doesn't, our society has the right to
protect them in the same way that others are protected.

To me, it's just like what the NFB says regarding the fact that the
average person should be able to get the average job.  Not every blind
person will reach a standare of excellence, but they still have the
right to live as whole of a life as they can.  Do you see what I mean?

Paula

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Paula.Mack@f6.n377.z1.fidonet.org (Paula Mack) (11/02/90)

Index Number: 11474

[This is from the Blink Talk Conference]

 BK> the blind person using their cane to be alert to the fact the 
 BK> mode of transportation they're using can be inherently 
 BK> dangerous and it might behoove them to be cautious?  As I have 
 BK> said before, I don't blame anyone for the incident that 
 BK> happened to me, but you can bet that if I'm on a platform ever 
 BK> again I'm gonna be a damn sight more carefull than I've been in 
 BK> the past. To me, that's the bottom line. It's not up to me to 
 BK> speak for other blind people or to cast aspersions, but for me, 
 BK> I know what works for my own safety. Bill K. --- ZMailQ 1.10 

Bill, I understand what you are saying, but I think we are all missing
the point here.  Of course, we are all ultimately responsible for our
safety.  However, I don't feel that the price for having less than
excellent mobility skills should be death.  That is just too strict a
punishment.

paula

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