Peter.Brown@p0.f89.n129.z1.fidonet.org (Peter Brown) (09/20/90)
Index Number: 10512 [This is from the Blink Talk Conference] there was an acident on the washington, d.c. metro (subway) where a blind person was killed a month ago. this has led to some other members of the blind communicy in the washington area to styart investigating the issue. questions are being asked of how a person can be protected from walking off the platform and into the path of the fast moving subway car. also we are looking into how to protect a person from walkinng in betwen the cars instead of finding the door and walking onto the car. if anyone has any information i would like to be in touch by the board or leave me a private msg in the net mail area with a phone number and i will call you. thanks in advance. -- Uucp: ..!{decvax,oliveb}!bunker!hcap!hnews!129!89.0!Peter.Brown Internet: Peter.Brown@p0.f89.n129.z1.fidonet.org
Al.Hoffman@p0.f143.n109.z1.fidonet.org (Al Hoffman) (09/21/90)
Index Number: 10580 [This is from the Blink Talk Conference] Peter: Friday, the 14th I think, Amanda Lee, an employee here at IRS, did just what you were talking about--she fell inbetween the cars. Luckily she didn't get "you know what,". But, seems at least a plastic barrier coulde be put between the cars to prevent the person from thinking thats the door--it would only have to reflect sound mostly, and not blow off--doesn't sound too difficult to me. About the falling off the platform thing, well, that one seems more tricky, and we blind people do have to be careful--but you know some of the those stops are really loud, like sometimes at national airport the plane noise is more than the train noise, and ... well you could fall in if not paying enough attention. -- Uucp: ..!{decvax,oliveb}!bunker!hcap!hnews!109!143.0!Al.Hoffman Internet: Al.Hoffman@p0.f143.n109.z1.fidonet.org
Tom.Gerhart@f210.n273.z1.fidonet.org (Tom Gerhart) (09/21/90)
Index Number: 10581 [This is from the Blink Talk Conference] Hi Peter, Why not start with getting better mobility for anybody who wants it. I think that most accidents can be avoided if blind people are paying attention to where they are and if they are really not sure, just ask someone. We don't need textured sidewalks and that kind of stuff just more time spent learning to use a cane or paying attention to your dog if you have one. tom G -- Uucp: ..!{decvax,oliveb}!bunker!hcap!hnews!273!210!Tom.Gerhart Internet: Tom.Gerhart@f210.n273.z1.fidonet.org
Dan.Kysor@f11.n203.z1.fidonet.org (Dan Kysor) (09/21/90)
Index Number: 10590 [This is from the Blink Talk Conference] peter, i am an experienced user of the bay area rapid transit system in the S.F. Bay Area. Many of the bart stations have a tactile tile edge about 2 feet wide. this helps especially if you are a cane user. my guide dog used to walk on this surface thinking it was the thing to do... out of sight out of mind. Regarding spaces between subway trains, New York blind groups are pushing Con Rail to install wooden fences between the cars. i've been back there and rode them before. the part that worries me is getting hit by thos wooden stairs as they come up to the platform... ouch!! -- Uucp: ..!{decvax,oliveb}!bunker!hcap!hnews!203!11!Dan.Kysor Internet: Dan.Kysor@f11.n203.z1.fidonet.org
Walter.Siren.@p1.f8.n396.z1.fidonet.org (Walter Siren ) (09/25/90)
Index Number: 10627 [This is from the Blink Talk Conference] TG> Why not start with getting better mobility for anybody who wants it. TG> I think that most accidents can be avoided if blind people are paying TG> attention to where they are and if they are really not sure, just ask TG> someone. We don't need textured sidewalks and that kind of stuff tom, i think that all blind people should get as much mobility training as they need; however, i don't think that we can get too much in the manner of safety precautions as we can. some blind persons are not as mobile as others, and if we can save a life with texture sidewalks or other markings, why not? i am not use to traveling in subways, since we don't have them down here, but any extra help i could get, i wouldn't mind, with all of that noise in there. TG> just TG> more time spent learning to use a cane or paying attention to your TG> dog TG> if you have one. tom G again, i know a lot of blind people that are not as mobile as i am, and i won't begrudge them of any necessary help. Walter -- Uucp: ..!{decvax,oliveb}!bunker!hcap!hnews!396!8.1!Walter.Siren. Internet: Walter.Siren.@p1.f8.n396.z1.fidonet.org
Gary.Petraccaro@f90.n129.z1.fidonet.org (Gary Petraccaro) (10/02/90)
Index Number: 10706 [This is from the Blink Talk Conference] Walter, I understand that you wouldn't want to "begrudge" anyone blink of any reasonable help. How do we distinguish between reasonable help and attempting to idiot-proof something? Seems like more and more I don't ever hear something like the word accident without someone wanting to be able to place blame along with it. -- Uucp: ..!{decvax,oliveb}!bunker!hcap!hnews!129!90!Gary.Petraccaro Internet: Gary.Petraccaro@f90.n129.z1.fidonet.org
Dan.Kysor@f11.n203.z1.fidonet.org (Dan Kysor) (10/02/90)
Index Number: 10712 [This is from the Blink Talk Conference] hey, let's be real. sure, you can give all the mobility training you want to some but they'll never be proficient travellers. face it, many of the blind populous have spacial orientation difficulties and why remove safety precautions like tactal strips from these people. sighted people have many aids to help them be more safe in our world, why exclude people who would need the help from these tactle aids. it's like theres one group who feels that tactile strips inhibit employment of the blind, that's a lot of that stuff you find on pastures... -- Uucp: ..!{decvax,oliveb}!bunker!hcap!hnews!203!11!Dan.Kysor Internet: Dan.Kysor@f11.n203.z1.fidonet.org
Darrell.Shandrow@f7.n300.z1.fidonet.org (Darrell Shandrow) (10/02/90)
Index Number: 10726 [This is from the Blink Talk Conference] I'm not sure we should be asking the Subway companies to make such major modifications. Like i think someone has already stated, the blind need appropriate mobility skills and need to pay attention to whats going on while travelling. -- Uucp: ..!{decvax,oliveb}!bunker!hcap!hnews!300!7!Darrell.Shandrow Internet: Darrell.Shandrow@f7.n300.z1.fidonet.org
Jeff.Salzberg@f729.n106.z1.fidonet.org (Jeff Salzberg) (10/02/90)
Index Number: 10729 [This is from the Blink Talk Conference] DK> many of the blind populous have spacial DK> orientation difficulties and why remove safety precautions like DK> tactal strips from these people. sighted people have many aids DK> to help them be more safe in our world, why exclude people who Many subway systems have a strip of differently-colored tile along the edge of the platform as sort of a warning track. A tactile strip would be merely an extension of this approach - a broadening of it, to provide for blind travellers a service the system is already providing for sighted ones. -- Uucp: ..!{decvax,oliveb}!bunker!hcap!hnews!106!729!Jeff.Salzberg Internet: Jeff.Salzberg@f729.n106.z1.fidonet.org
Dan.Kysor@f11.n203.z1.fidonet.org (Dan Kysor) (10/02/90)
Index Number: 10738 [This is from the Blink Talk Conference] most subway "companies" are in fact, municipalities and are funded by you and i, the taxpayers. as "i" mentioned earlier, if sighted people can expect safety mechanisms in their daily travels, why shouldn't the blind? -- Uucp: ..!{decvax,oliveb}!bunker!hcap!hnews!203!11!Dan.Kysor Internet: Dan.Kysor@f11.n203.z1.fidonet.org
William.Wilson@p0.f89.n129.z1.fidonet.org (William Wilson) (10/02/90)
Index Number: 10744 [This is from the Blink Talk Conference] JS> Many subway systems have a strip of differently-colored tile JS> along the edge of the platform as sort of a warning track. A JS> tactile strip would be merely an extension of this approach - Jeffrey, I was watching channel 9 out of New York the other day for my daily shot of inane nonsence, and on a talk show they discussed the awarding of 9 million dollars to some guy who fell off the platform and lost an arm! Not only did it come out in court that there were plenty of warnings for the people on the platform, the guy admitted to being drunk as a monkey! Amazing to me that a jury could award such a settlement to someone so obviously at fault for his situation, but even more amazing that some blinks think asking that a minor adaptation be made by the transit authorities to help us out is unreasonable or inappropriate! Willie ... BlinkTalk, Dr. Deb and Silver in Pittsburgh! -- Uucp: ..!{decvax,oliveb}!bunker!hcap!hnews!129!89.0!William.Wilson Internet: William.Wilson@p0.f89.n129.z1.fidonet.org
Gary.Petraccaro@f90.n129.z1.fidonet.org (Gary Petraccaro) (10/02/90)
Index Number: 10748 [This is from the Blink Talk Conference] Willie, Jeff's message helped change my thinking on that one. Never realized that there were differently colored tiles along the platform's edge. -- Uucp: ..!{decvax,oliveb}!bunker!hcap!hnews!129!90!Gary.Petraccaro Internet: Gary.Petraccaro@f90.n129.z1.fidonet.org
David.Andrews@p0.f89.n129.z1.fidonet.org (David Andrews) (10/02/90)
Index Number: 10765 [This is from the Blink Talk Conference] PB> there was an acident on the washington, d.c. metro (subway) PB> where a blind person was killed a month ago. this has led to PB> some other members of the blind communicy in the washington PB> area to styart investigating the issue. questions are being PB> asked of how a person can be protected from walking off the PB> platform and into the path of the fast moving subway car. also PB> we are looking into how to protect a person from walkinng in PB> betwen the cars instead of finding the door and walking onto PB> the car. if anyone has any information i would like to be in PB> touch by the board or leave me a private msg in the net mail PB> area with a phone number and i will call you. thanks in PB> advance. Peter, It is certainly a tragedy when someone is killed in a public transit accident. However, when a blind person is killed, or injured, in such an accident all of us, blind and sighted alike, tend to assume that it happened because the person was blind. This may or may not be true. It would be interesting to see what percentage of blind and sighted people get injured in these accidents. My first point is that maybe per capita our rate is no higher. Secondly, it is impossible to make the world totally safe for blind or sighted people. What would you do, put up rainings all along the platform. I think that many blind people in this country have not had proper or adequate travel training. If more people got good training, then less accidents would happen. I have heard of at least one state orientation center where travel students as their final route go around the block. That is not good travel training. This center is in a major city, so to leave after your training, you must take public transit, something they do not teach all their students to do. If a person has had good training, and exercises reasonable care and attention while traveling, I believe that he or she is no more likely to be injured then a sighted person. By raising peoples fears, and creating the need for all kinds of special accomodations, it becomes difficult for all of us to move ahead and take our place in society as equals. David Andrews ... Your Sound Alternative -- Uucp: ..!{decvax,oliveb}!bunker!hcap!hnews!129!89.0!David.Andrews Internet: David.Andrews@p0.f89.n129.z1.fidonet.org
Dan.Kysor@f11.n203.z1.fidonet.org (Dan Kysor) (10/03/90)
Index Number: 10830 [This is from the Blink Talk Conference] i know that i disagree with some on tactile strips but i have seen simular instances where blind people take advantage. i know a gal in the bay area who ignored her dog's warning and fell into the b a r t tracks and sewed the bart district and won!! another incident on the same subway system, another person who's dog pushed the master to keep her from falling in the tracks, recieved a stern kick in the side and both ended up in the tracks... amazing! this kind of stuff really gets me downright mad... -- Uucp: ..!{decvax,oliveb}!bunker!hcap!hnews!203!11!Dan.Kysor Internet: Dan.Kysor@f11.n203.z1.fidonet.org
Tom.Gerhart@f722.n273.z1.fidonet.org (Tom Gerhart) (10/03/90)
Index Number: 10832 [This is from the Blink Talk Conference] HI Dan, I think the question is whether if extra measures are provided does that reenforce the idea to the general public that we are not able to travil where these kinds of things are not provided. I can see both sides of the question. tom G -- Uucp: ..!{decvax,oliveb}!bunker!hcap!hnews!273!722!Tom.Gerhart Internet: Tom.Gerhart@f722.n273.z1.fidonet.org
Walter.Siren.@p18.f5.n396.z1.fidonet.org (Walter Siren ) (10/03/90)
Index Number: 10840 [This is from the Blink Talk Conference] TG> I think the question is whether if extra measures are provided does TG> that TG> reenforce the idea to the general public that we are not able to TG> travil If you use that philosophy, than we should not need extra helps in the work force, because that would renforce there idea that we are not able to hold a job. As was pointed out by some one that there are different collored blocks by the subway for sighted people to see. Also don't they have a white line down the middle of the highway to keep cars on their side of the road. Walter -- Uucp: ..!{decvax,oliveb}!bunker!hcap!hnews!396!5.18!Walter.Siren. Internet: Walter.Siren.@p18.f5.n396.z1.fidonet.org
Walter.Siren.@p18.f5.n396.z1.fidonet.org (Walter Siren ) (10/03/90)
Index Number: 10843 [This is from the Blink Talk Conference] DS> That special tactile stuff makes us look inferrior to the sighted. No just realistic. Walter -- Uucp: ..!{decvax,oliveb}!bunker!hcap!hnews!396!5.18!Walter.Siren. Internet: Walter.Siren.@p18.f5.n396.z1.fidonet.org
Dan.Kysor@f11.n203.z1.fidonet.org (Dan Kysor) (10/03/90)
Index Number: 10866 [This is from the Blink Talk Conference] i think the thumb of rule should always be "public safety" and other considerations are secondary. would you rather see a person employed or crunched by a subway. in fact, employment and modifications are not mutually exclusive. these organizations who tie the two together are clouding the issue. i do feel that more thought needs to be made when cities and counties put audible lights in where there're not needed and when tactile strips are put in where not needed. here in sacramento, there are many star and dangerous t intersections but the only places which have tactile edges are downtown grid intersections, where virtually no blind person has no problems. was that a run on sentence! oh well... chow for now -- Uucp: ..!{decvax,oliveb}!bunker!hcap!hnews!203!11!Dan.Kysor Internet: Dan.Kysor@f11.n203.z1.fidonet.org
Dan.Kysor@f11.n203.z1.fidonet.org (Dan Kysor) (10/03/90)
Index Number: 10869 [This is from the Blink Talk Conference] being dead makes you look even more inferior!!! -- Uucp: ..!{decvax,oliveb}!bunker!hcap!hnews!203!11!Dan.Kysor Internet: Dan.Kysor@f11.n203.z1.fidonet.org
Jeff.Salzberg@f729.n106.z1.fidonet.org (Jeff Salzberg) (10/05/90)
Index Number: 10933 [This is from the Blink Talk Conference] DS> That special tactile stuff makes us look inferrior to the DS> sighted. No, it doesn't; only your PERCEPTION of it does. -- Uucp: ..!{decvax,oliveb}!bunker!hcap!hnews!106!729!Jeff.Salzberg Internet: Jeff.Salzberg@f729.n106.z1.fidonet.org
Paula.Mack@f6.n377.z1.fidonet.org (Paula Mack) (10/10/90)
Index Number: 10998 [This is from the Blink Talk Conference] DS> That special tactile stuff makes us look inferrior to the DS> sighted. I guess that means that because they need light in order to function, they look inferior to us. And of course, how we "look" to the sighted is more imprtant than our safety. Paula ... Xpress Yourself! -- Uucp: ..!{decvax,oliveb}!bunker!hcap!hnews!377!6!Paula.Mack Internet: Paula.Mack@f6.n377.z1.fidonet.org
William.Wilson@p0.f89.n129.z1.fidonet.org (William Wilson) (10/10/90)
Index Number: 11001 [This is from the Blink Talk Conference] > DS> That special tactile stuff makes us look inferrior to the > DS> sighted. Paula, Tell the truth now...What 3 letters come to mind when you read statements like the one above that Darrell left? > I guess that means that because they need light in order > to function, > they look inferior to us. And of course, how we "look" > to the sighted > is more imprtant than our safety. You know, the one thing that bugs me about the tired, old philosophy so commonly spit out by blinks who subscribe to the NFB doctrine is that it so often professes a knowledge of what sighted folks think, and yet from this former winks perspective, they're just plain wrong! Darrell, their just ain't no way a sighted person would look at tactile tiles and say, "Oh, them poor blind people!" Not only would this not happen if they actually knew what the tactile tiles were for, by far most of them wouldn't even notice them or recognize their particular purpose! Look, I know I'm opening myself up for the rath of you fully convinced NFB types, but picturing completely unrealistic scenarios of how the sighted world would picture us because of a few adaptations made to the environment in order to help equalize things for us a bit seems to be a common practice of your favorite organization, and it does tend to get a little old to me! I wonder if the wheel chair people have a similar group representing their needs who advocates the tearing out of wheelchair ramps and lowered door handles and drinking fountains, or if the deaf community has someone trying to remove the closed captioning from tv shows, or at least the public announcement that the broadcasting station makes of the service? Despite what you may hear from others Darrell, I just don't think the whole sighted world is out to get us, or to discriminate against us, or even to perceive us as inadequate because something like floor tiles with bumps on them can be used by us as an extra safety precaution. Paula has convinced me, however, to take all the damn light bulbs out of this apartment till we get those bumpy tiles in the subways, and thus I am announcing the "Bump for a Bulb" campaign! Donations gratefully accepted at BlinkLink Inc. 170 Lincoln Ave. Pittsburgh, PA 15202. Willie -- Uucp: ..!{decvax,oliveb}!bunker!hcap!hnews!129!89.0!William.Wilson Internet: William.Wilson@p0.f89.n129.z1.fidonet.org
Gary.Petraccaro@f90.n129.z1.fidonet.org (Gary Petraccaro) (10/10/90)
Index Number: 11004 [This is from the Blink Talk Conference] If making us look inferior is the main point what's the difference between special tactile strips and the ADA? -- Uucp: ..!{decvax,oliveb}!bunker!hcap!hnews!129!90!Gary.Petraccaro Internet: Gary.Petraccaro@f90.n129.z1.fidonet.org
Tom.Gerhart@f722.n273.z1.fidonet.org (Tom Gerhart) (10/10/90)
Index Number: 11049 [This is from the Blink Talk Conference] Paula, YOu did not quote the next part of the mesg, which said something to the effect that the only question I have is would people think that blind people could not travel where these aids were not available. tom G -- Uucp: ..!{decvax,oliveb}!bunker!hcap!hnews!273!722!Tom.Gerhart Internet: Tom.Gerhart@f722.n273.z1.fidonet.org
Jeff.Salzberg@f729.n106.z1.fidonet.org (Jeff Salzberg) (10/10/90)
Index Number: 11052 [This is from the Blink Talk Conference] DS> I'm not sure we should be asking the Subway companies to make DS> such major modifications. Imbedding tactile strips is hardly a major modification. -- Uucp: ..!{decvax,oliveb}!bunker!hcap!hnews!106!729!Jeff.Salzberg Internet: Jeff.Salzberg@f729.n106.z1.fidonet.org
Jeff.Salzberg@f729.n106.z1.fidonet.org (Jeff Salzberg) (10/10/90)
Index Number: 11053 [This is from the Blink Talk Conference] PM> I guess that means that because they need light in order to PM> function, they look inferior to us. I ocassionally remind Cheryl that we sighted people need assistive viewing devices...like lamps. -- Uucp: ..!{decvax,oliveb}!bunker!hcap!hnews!106!729!Jeff.Salzberg Internet: Jeff.Salzberg@f729.n106.z1.fidonet.org
Henry.Kasten@f10.n130.z1.fidonet.org (Henry Kasten) (10/13/90)
Index Number: 11088 [This is from the Blink Talk Conference] Hey Willie, what's this about being an N F B type? I think safety precautions are essential for all our well being. But, "extra" precautions are usally a waste of effort and funds. Hang the way people look at us, that is a philosphy adhered to by many blinks regardless of their affiliation. I personally am concerned about how I look in public. That is my business, I am amazed, however, at the large number of Blinks who do not care. Just because you can not see yourself in the mirror doesn't mean you should go around looking like a fat slob. Certainly I don't subscribe to the Darryll Syndrome that we look inferior if we need some help, I do believe, however, that appearance is critical to how you will be treated by the general public.If I have offended anybody out there because they are fat or choose not made themselves presentable, well, they shouldn't be! That is their own choice, not mine. You can sit around all day long and do nothing and get fat or you can do something about it. There are no, I repeat no excuses for letting yourself go. Quadroplegics can do exercizes to help them. There are exercizes any of can do no matter what disablity we have. Whew, Boy. Man did I ever get another of my soap boxes. Oh well, Iguess it is better than railing about the loss of Civil rights to the airlines. Hey Willie, I went sky diving this past weekend. Man was it ever thrilling, you have never done anything untill you hear a german shepherd scream at 10000 feet. (grin) Henry -- Uucp: ..!{decvax,oliveb}!bunker!hcap!hnews!130!10!Henry.Kasten Internet: Henry.Kasten@f10.n130.z1.fidonet.org
William.Wilson@f88.n129.z1.fidonet.org (William Wilson) (10/17/90)
Index Number: 11144 [This is from the Blink Talk Conference] > being. But, "extra" precautions are usally a waste of > effort and funds. Hang the way people look at us, that > is a philosphy adhered to by many blinks regardless of their > affiliation. I personally am concerned about how I look > in public. That is my business, I am amazed, however, > at the large number of Blinks who do not care. Henry, Yes, the cost of the additional safety precautions afforded us should be considered, and I did just that before leaving my message about the tactile tiles! I know somebody is going to respond with some figures about such a thing costing multibucks, and I can accept the fact that any modification to the subway stations wouldn't be a drop in the bucket by our standards, but relatively speaking, compared to budget allocations made daily for other things that couldn't possibly do something as important as saving a life, I think it would be a pittance! So far as how we appear in public, I couldn't agree with you more! I don't know where I said otherwise, cause I think we're talking about 2 totally different things here, but I want to assure everyone that yes, I bathe regularly, I weigh under 300 pounds, and the ladies of the evening that hang out on Liberty Avenue here in our fine city still solicit me, so I must not be totally repulsive! Excuse me for being so defensive, but I just don't understand why my original message should have provoked you to think that I am not concerned with how I look in public, be I a blink or a wink! > rights to the airlines. Hey Willie, I went sky diving > this past weekend. Man was it ever thrilling, you have > never done anything untill you hear a german shepherd scream > at 10000 feet. Ok Henry, just for that one, which I will steal as my own everytime I get a chance, I'll forgive you! Willie -- Uucp: ..!{decvax,oliveb}!bunker!hcap!hnews!129!88!William.Wilson Internet: William.Wilson@f88.n129.z1.fidonet.org
Bill.Koppelmann@f114.n104.z1.fidonet.org (Bill Koppelmann) (10/17/90)
Index Number: 11145 [This is from the Blink Talk Conference] Paula, I found your remarks on subway safety to be most interesting, however, i apply the same logic to this question that I do about audible stoplights. Surely they aren't gonna put those safety strips everywhere, and if you get used to them when you are faced again with a situation where they aren't there, aren't you going to begin to rely on them and then maybe really hurt yourself because you weren't alerted to where the edge of the platform was? I've ridden these trains many times when I lived in Chicago, and I can tell you that the results can be tragic when you aren't paying attention. I know, I fell off an elevated platform once and I'll tell you that the reason was that I just wasn't using my cane properly. Bill. -- Uucp: ..!{decvax,oliveb}!bunker!hcap!hnews!104!114!Bill.Koppelmann Internet: Bill.Koppelmann@f114.n104.z1.fidonet.org
Stu.Turk@f26.n129.z1.fidonet.org (Stu Turk) (10/17/90)
Index Number: 11153 [This is from the Blink Talk Conference] This "Subway Saftey" msg chain has been going on for a while now. But, unless I missed it, I haven't seen anyone post that their can should tell them there is no step there (and therefor, it must be the space between cars). I rap my cane agains the step of the bus or subway car before steping on. -- Uucp: ..!{decvax,oliveb}!bunker!hcap!hnews!129!26!Stu.Turk Internet: Stu.Turk@f26.n129.z1.fidonet.org
William.Wilson@f88.n129.z1.fidonet.org (William Wilson) (10/17/90)
Index Number: 11156 [This is from the Blink Talk Conference] > This "Subway Saftey" msg chain has been going on for > a while now. But, unless I missed it, I haven't seen anyone > post that their can should tell them there is no step there > (and therefor, it must be the space between cars). Stu, Yes, I admit that it is a little difficult for me to understand the problem with recognizing the end of the platform, but since I never rode on a subway, and since the problem seems far too common, I assume that a little assistance in the form of tactile tiles wouldn't hurt. What I really want to know though is, do those of you who worry about our image being negatively affected by tactile tiles likewise think that the braille they are putting in many of the elevators in our fine city should be avoided for similar reasons? Funny how we can view some things as allowing us to be more independant, and others as making us look inferior to our sighted peers! Willie -- Uucp: ..!{decvax,oliveb}!bunker!hcap!hnews!129!88!William.Wilson Internet: William.Wilson@f88.n129.z1.fidonet.org
Dan.Kysor@f11.n203.z1.fidonet.org (Dan Kysor) (10/23/90)
Index Number: 11216 [This is from the Blink Talk Conference] the problem with many of the audible traffic lights is their placed in controlled intersections and often not placed in 3 way, "t" or star intersections where they should be placed. Standards should be adopted for placement of these audible lights. In san francisco by the lighthouse for the blind, there is a perfectly controlled "grid" type intersection with the most obnoxious buzzing light in the world. i've often thought "what about the rest of this town?" I am for them but properly placed and with a decent "chirp" that wouldn't impact the neighborhood. i'd hate to live next to that buzzing light by the lighthouse, for that matter, i'd hate to live in that neighborhood!! -- Uucp: ..!{decvax,oliveb}!bunker!hcap!hnews!203!11!Dan.Kysor Internet: Dan.Kysor@f11.n203.z1.fidonet.org
Scott.Howell@f521.n109.z1.fidonet.org (Scott Howell) (10/23/90)
Index Number: 11224 [This is from the Blink Talk Conference] >To: William Wilson > > This "Subway Saftey" msg chain has been going on for a while now. But, >unless I missed it, I haven't seen anyone post that their can should tell >them there is no step there (and therefor, it must be the space between >cars). I rap my cane agains the step of the bus or subway car before >steping on. I will say this. I ride the Metro Rail system everyday here in D.C. and have had no problems. If you step before you sweep the area well, that is poor cane technique and you will pay for that mistake. Sorry folks I feel that with proper training and care you won't need many special mods to a subway. Scott -- Uucp: ..!{decvax,oliveb}!bunker!hcap!hnews!109!521!Scott.Howell Internet: Scott.Howell@f521.n109.z1.fidonet.org
barbour@boulder.colorado.edu (Jim Barbour) (10/24/90)
Index Number: 11235 The REAL problem with audible traffic signals is that they are not really needed. Any blind person can learn to cross a street at an intersection without an audible traffic signal. Once they've learned, they'll be able to cross ANY intersection, not just ones with the obnoxious signals. On top of which, once you know how to cross streets without signals, the noise becomes a real distraction for blind people who are trying to listen to traffic. Jim Barbour
Gary.Petraccaro@f90.n129.z1.fidonet.org (Gary Petraccaro) (10/24/90)
Index Number: 11251 [This is from the Blink Talk Conference] Bill, You're right about being responsible, but we just haven't asked enough questions about the situation as a whole. I mean things like, do we have newer cars which are noiser, has the environment changed some way or other. The only times I can see a real hazard bare those when either one is alone and trying like hell to get out of a frightening place (aka subway at night), or one of those situations when 2 trains cross paths (one stopping, the other going on or stopping). In either situation, especially the latter, cues may be at a minimum. What times did these people die? Were either of my hypothesized most dangerous situations in effect? We really do have to know more. -- Uucp: ..!{decvax,oliveb}!bunker!hcap!hnews!129!90!Gary.Petraccaro Internet: Gary.Petraccaro@f90.n129.z1.fidonet.org
Patrick.Gormley@f432.n109.z1.fidonet.org (Patrick Gormley) (10/24/90)
Index Number: 11250 [This is from the Blink Talk Conference] paula the problems with those safety tiles is that if the station is above ground and the temperature remains below 32 degrees for any length of time, they won't adhere and will eventually come off the surfact they are glued to. The real key is to find a cane that has a sensitive enough of a tip to allow you to distinguish between the two. I myself also use a 63 inch cane that gives me plenty of room to stop should I be walking fast. Invariably mobility instructors give people canes that are too short. -- Uucp: ..!{decvax,oliveb}!bunker!hcap!hnews!109!432!Patrick.Gormley Internet: Patrick.Gormley@f432.n109.z1.fidonet.org
Tom.Gerhart@f210.n273.z1.fidonet.org (Tom Gerhart) (10/26/90)
Index Number: 11284 [This is from the Blink Talk Conference] PM> Well, I know what you mean, but I think that the safety issue PM> is a lot more important than what people think. Paula, Iagree with you about the safety issue but what people think is important when it comes time to look for a job nad the employer says he does not think you could do the job because there were not special cues on the sidewalks around his plant. just a thought. tom G.. -- Uucp: ..!{decvax,oliveb}!bunker!hcap!hnews!273!210!Tom.Gerhart Internet: Tom.Gerhart@f210.n273.z1.fidonet.org
Walter.Siren@p18.f5.n396.z1.fidonet.org (Walter Siren) (10/26/90)
Index Number: 11285 [This is from the Blink Talk Conference] PM> Well, I know what you mean, but I think that the safety issue PM> is a lot more important than what people think. TG> Paula, TG> Iagree with you about the safety issue but what people think is TG> important when it comes time to look for a job nad the employer TG> says he TG> does not think you could do the job because there were not TG> special cues TG> on the sidewalks around his plant. just a thought. tom G.. Any employer who stoops to using that will find some other reason not tohire you. Don't think that will hold water. Walter -- Uucp: ..!{decvax,oliveb}!bunker!hcap!hnews!396!5.18!Walter.Siren Internet: Walter.Siren@p18.f5.n396.z1.fidonet.org
Al.Hoffman@p0.f143.n109.z1.fidonet.org (Al Hoffman) (10/26/90)
Index Number: 11286 [This is from the Blink Talk Conference] Okay--its like this: To put it bluntly, we should make the subway system idiot proof, just like well written sofware, so it won't do harm unless pushed so far that there is no way out. Make it so that the person has to actively jump right under the poor train or whatever. I am not for protectionism for the stupid, but we have to make up our minds if we are gonna either protect or take the losses and not cry over them. At present American soeciety says we should do the protectionism thing, because we like to cry over the losses too much. Thats fine if applied equally. WEll, later on--I'm out of here for the moment. -- Uucp: ..!{decvax,oliveb}!bunker!hcap!hnews!109!143.0!Al.Hoffman Internet: Al.Hoffman@p0.f143.n109.z1.fidonet.org
Scott.Howell@f521.n109.z1.fidonet.org (Scott Howell) (10/26/90)
Index Number: 11287 [This is from the Blink Talk Conference] >To: William Wilson > > This "Subway Saftey" msg chain has been going on for a while now. But, >unless I missed it, I haven't seen anyone post that their can should tell >them there is no step there (and therefor, it must be the space between >cars). I rap my cane agains the step of the bus or subway car before >steping on. I will say this. I ride the Metro Rail system everyday here in D.C. and have had no problems. If you step before you sweep the area well, that is poor cane technique and you will pay for that mistake. Sorry folks I feel that with proper training and care you won't need many special mods to a subway. Scott -- Uucp: ..!{decvax,oliveb}!bunker!hcap!hnews!109!521!Scott.Howell Internet: Scott.Howell@f521.n109.z1.fidonet.org
Bill.Koppelmann@f810.n104.z1.fidonet.org (Bill Koppelmann) (10/26/90)
Index Number: 11289 [This is from the Blink Talk Conference] Paula, maybe what y9ou are saying is correct, but I find it interesting that the only place I have everr heard of safety strips on el's or subways is in New York. I don't think Chicago has any, and since there's an NFBer on the cta managerial staff, I doubt that it'll ever happen. So, it seems to me that we're down to one question, shouldn't it be up to the blind person using their cane to be alert to the fact the mode of transportation they're using can be inherently dangerous and it might behoove them to be cautious? As I have said before, I don't blame anyone for the incident that happened to me, but you can bet that if I'm on a platform ever again I'm gonna be a damn sight more carefull than I've been in the past. To me, that's the bottom line. It's not up to me to speak for other blind people or to cast aspersions, but for me, I know what works for my own safety. Bill K. -- Uucp: ..!{decvax,oliveb}!bunker!hcap!hnews!104!810!Bill.Koppelmann Internet: Bill.Koppelmann@f810.n104.z1.fidonet.org
Ted.Young@p0.f89.n129.z1.fidonet.org (Ted Young) (10/26/90)
Index Number: 11291 [This is from the Blink Talk Conference] What I really want to know though is, do those of you who worry about our image being negatively affected by tactile tiles likewise think that the braille they are putting in many of the elevators in our fine city should be avoided for similar reasons? Willie: the problem is that the edge of a platform is easily distinguishable with a cane, the difference between an open car door and the space between cars is easily distinguishable by a cane, which button to push on an elevator and what floor the elevator has reached are not so easily distinguishable as the button set ups vary. Aside from asking for what is not needed, to ask for an unneeded travel aid is indeed to suggest less capabilities than we have, to ask for Braille markings at least shows the public we can read, and, by the way, not many of the public believe that. Ted -- Uucp: ..!{decvax,oliveb}!bunker!hcap!hnews!129!89.0!Ted.Young Internet: Ted.Young@p0.f89.n129.z1.fidonet.org
Daniel.Murphy@f165.n101.z1.fidonet.org (Daniel Murphy) (10/26/90)
Index Number: 11296 [This is from the Blink Talk Conference] H Darrell, I live in the boston area, and I have an audible traffic signal fairly near my house. It also just happens to be close to the Mass Association For The Blind, so that may have something to do with it. It's usefull, but I wonder when a local municipality installs one of those, how much input to they take from local blind pedestrians as to the design, and sound to be emitted by the audible device. In short, might it be better if we, that is blind people, had more of a say in the actual design of these systems? -- Uucp: ..!{decvax,oliveb}!bunker!hcap!hnews!101!165!Daniel.Murphy Internet: Daniel.Murphy@f165.n101.z1.fidonet.org
Lee.Kerr@f7.n300.z1.fidonet.org (Lee Kerr) (10/26/90)
Index Number: 11310 [This is from the Blink Talk Conference] I think that buzzers and whistles on trafic signals are a pain in the neck. They make it hard for me to hgar the trafic and besidees that, they are not something we need, they cant put one on every corner, and if they did, it sure would be interesting trying to tell one from anotxer. -- Uucp: ..!{decvax,oliveb}!bunker!hcap!hnews!300!7!Lee.Kerr Internet: Lee.Kerr@f7.n300.z1.fidonet.org
Jeff.Salzberg@f729.n106.z1.fidonet.org (Jeff Salzberg) (10/26/90)
Index Number: 11311 [This is from the Blink Talk Conference] If tactile strips were installed on subway platforms, 99% of sighted riders would not realise the purpose of said strips. Unless there were an inordinate amount of publicity accompanying the installation, few sighted employers would even know that tactile strips exist; even fewer would use the lack of same as an excuse to not hire blind employees. -- Uucp: ..!{decvax,oliveb}!bunker!hcap!hnews!106!729!Jeff.Salzberg Internet: Jeff.Salzberg@f729.n106.z1.fidonet.org
Ted.Filteau@f460.n101.z1.fidonet.org (Ted Filteau) (10/26/90)
Index Number: 11313 [This is from the Blink Talk Conference] DM> In short, might it DM> be better if we, that is blind people, had more of a say in the DM> actual design of these systems? --- Hi Dan, I picked your message to jump into this thread. I use the boston system a good deal, and have found it getting harder over the past twenty years or so. The new stations use longer trains, and put one on a center strip between trains. They also do things like puting benches in the middle of the strip at angles. I don't think many blind people were asked about these kinds of "modernizations." If the original designs were beter, we wouldn't be having this message thread on the echo. ... Ted -- Uucp: ..!{decvax,oliveb}!bunker!hcap!hnews!101!460!Ted.Filteau Internet: Ted.Filteau@f460.n101.z1.fidonet.org
Paula.Mack@f6.n377.z1.fidonet.org (Paula Mack) (10/31/90)
Index Number: 11381 [This is from the Blink Talk Conference] PM>> Well, I know what you mean, but I think that the safety issue TG> Iagree with you about the safety issue but what people think is TG> important when it comes time to look for a job nad the employer TG> says he does not think you could do the job because there were TG> not special cues on the sidewalks around his plant. just a TG> thought. tom G.. Hi Tom, I agree with you that we can't ask for so many accommodations that we become burdensome, but I don't think the analogy between sidewalks and subways is a valid one. Too many blind people have been maimed or killed to make light of it, and there is no real danger on a sidewalk. Paula ... Press F1 to Reboot -- Uucp: ..!{decvax,oliveb}!bunker!hcap!hnews!377!6!Paula.Mack Internet: Paula.Mack@f6.n377.z1.fidonet.org
Jeff.Salzberg@f729.n106.z1.fidonet.org (Jeff Salzberg) (10/31/90)
Index Number: 11384 [This is from the Blink Talk Conference] DS> But just remember that DS> employers will think we are unequals because we must hav3e3 DS> those audible traffic lights. Darrell, few sighted employers would even be aware of the existence of audible traffic signals; fewer still would realise their purpose. Why do you feel it appropriate to make gross generalizations about sighted people? Would you accept similar generalizations about blind people? I think not. -- Uucp: ..!{decvax,oliveb}!bunker!hcap!hnews!106!729!Jeff.Salzberg Internet: Jeff.Salzberg@f729.n106.z1.fidonet.org
Lee.Kerr@f7.n300.z1.fidonet.org (Lee Kerr) (10/31/90)
Index Number: 11396 [This is from the Blink Talk Conference] I think the public see those beeping trafic signals as anether crutch. the federation dose not like them. -- Uucp: ..!{decvax,oliveb}!bunker!hcap!hnews!300!7!Lee.Kerr Internet: Lee.Kerr@f7.n300.z1.fidonet.org
Bill.Koppelmann@f114.n104.z1.fidonet.org (Bill Koppelmann) (10/31/90)
Index Number: 11400 [This is from the Blink Talk Conference] Jeff, I think your logic about subway strips may have something to be said for it, however, I'm not sure I'm convinced. All we need is for some nosy news station to make a big to do about it. Also, isn't it possible that the transit companies may well wish to get some good pr out of it? Bill K. -- Uucp: ..!{decvax,oliveb}!bunker!hcap!hnews!104!114!Bill.Koppelmann Internet: Bill.Koppelmann@f114.n104.z1.fidonet.org
William.Wilson@f89.n129.z1.fidonet.org (William Wilson) (10/31/90)
Index Number: 11403 [This is from the Blink Talk Conference] LK> I think the public see those beeping trafic signals as anether LK> crutch. the federation dose not like them. Lee, As a former member of "the public", I would like to say that it was a very long time before I ever even knew what those beeps were all about! We've had them here at particularly dangerous intersections in Pittsburgh for a very, very long time, and even when I finally did find out what they were all about, the word "crutch" never entered my mind! Please don't mistake this as my being in favor of them in general, for indeed, at at least one of the intersections that I now travel as a blink where one is present, I find it more of an annoyance than anything. At others, however, I've taught more than a couple of sighted people how they can be used to make a safe crossing, and they seemed to think that they could help them as well! What really interests me about your message, however, is the "the Federation doesn't like them" statement. For some reason, I notice that a few of you keep leaving comments like that, and it sort of sounds like putting the cart before the horse to me! I mean, it appears like you are basing your own opinion upon what the NFB says it should be rather than vice-versa. Please, tell me, who is the NFB, how does he or she manage to tell the membership what its opinion is rather than it telling he or she what their opinion should be, and why is it, although I know this exists to some degree with every organization of this type, it sticks out like a sore thumb in the NFB? Note: This is not intended to be a slam the NFB message, but these things have been bothering me for a long time, and I would like to hear some rational, thought provoking explanations! Willie ... Even if you're not the lead dog, the view can be interesting! -- Uucp: ..!{decvax,oliveb}!bunker!hcap!hnews!129!89!William.Wilson Internet: William.Wilson@f89.n129.z1.fidonet.org
Ted.Young@p0.f89.n129.z1.fidonet.org (Ted Young) (10/31/90)
Index Number: 11414 [This is from the Blink Talk Conference] In a message to Tom Gerhart Jeff Salzberg wrote: "If tactile strips were installed on subway platforms, 99% of sighted riders would not realise the purpose of said strips. Unless there were an inordinate amount of publicity accompanying the installation, few sighted employers would even know that tactile strips exist; even fewer would use the lack of same as an excuse to not hire blind employees." Maybe so Jeff but there are at least two questions left. 1. Would those strips help blind travelers? I have seen a lot of people taking this for granted. If you can't pick up the edge of the platform with your cane would you really be able to detect such a strip? Further, those strips have nothing at all to do with blind people stepping between cars. As some sage pointed out here, you use your cane to feel for a step or a floor before you step. Yes, I am a daily subway traveler. 2. Whether or not the strips would be noticed by everybody, what about the cumulative affect of spreading around unwanted and unneeded adaptations. Surely you would agree that eventually most people would draw some incorrect and unhealthy conclusions about the needs of blind people. Ted -- Uucp: ..!{decvax,oliveb}!bunker!hcap!hnews!129!89.0!Ted.Young Internet: Ted.Young@p0.f89.n129.z1.fidonet.org
Ted.Young@p0.f89.n129.z1.fidonet.org (Ted Young) (10/31/90)
Index Number: 11415 [This is from the Blink Talk Conference] In a message Gary Petraccaro states: " GP> complicated stations, and I need a reminder. What chances are GP> there that someone might mistake the drop off a platform for GP> steps leading down to another level? For anyone in GP> Philadelphia, I'm thinking of 130th Street and/or 15th and GP> Market. I haven't been to either in quite a long time." Gary, you'd really have to work at mistaking the edge of the platform for steps in any Elevated or Subway station. Usually you don't hear a subway whizzing in front of you on stairs. Ted -- Uucp: ..!{decvax,oliveb}!bunker!hcap!hnews!129!89.0!Ted.Young Internet: Ted.Young@p0.f89.n129.z1.fidonet.org
Ted.Filteau@f460.n101.z1.fidonet.org (Ted Filteau) (10/31/90)
Index Number: 11420 [This is from the Blink Talk Conference] JS>but may I suggest that all JS> participants in the "subway" thread include in their remarks a JS> statement as to whether or not they have experienced a subway JS> system as a blink? Right on Jeff, I was beginning to think that subway systems were more wide spread than I had imagined. I use the Boston system, and I find my ideas as a user run more to the practical than the theoretical. ... Ted -- Uucp: ..!{decvax,oliveb}!bunker!hcap!hnews!101!460!Ted.Filteau Internet: Ted.Filteau@f460.n101.z1.fidonet.org
Daniel.Murphy@p0.f460.n101.z1.fidonet.org (Daniel Murphy) (10/31/90)
Index Number: 11421 [This is from the Blink Talk Conference] Also consider that I always thought they were putting those audibles at certain intersections for the convenience of blind travelers. I don't know, for instance, why the one out here is actually here, accept that it is extremely close to the Massachusetts Association For The Blind. They have a residential program for retarded blind people, and maybe they felt that th"re was a safety issue involved. It didn't just pop up there by magic. -- Uucp: ..!{decvax,oliveb}!bunker!hcap!hnews!101!460.0!Daniel.Murphy Internet: Daniel.Murphy@p0.f460.n101.z1.fidonet.org
Bill.Koppelmann@f810.n104.z1.fidonet.org (Bill Koppelmann) (11/02/90)
Index Number: 11459 [This is from the Blink Talk Conference] Lee, I happen to be a Federation member, and while I might not tow the line on everything, I do say that I agree with that one. I can't say from my own experience whether the public actually does make the transition in their minds from audible stoplights to incompetant blind folks, but I wouldn't want to rule it out. Oh, I forgot to ask you something when we were talking about Versabraille use. When you get my message, do you read it in braille grade 2, or can you only do that in certain modes? Bill K. -- Uucp: ..!{decvax,oliveb}!bunker!hcap!hnews!104!810!Bill.Koppelmann Internet: Bill.Koppelmann@f810.n104.z1.fidonet.org
Jeff.Salzberg@f729.n106.z1.fidonet.org (Jeff Salzberg) (11/02/90)
Index Number: 11470 [This is from the Blink Talk Conference] LK>> the federation dose not like them. WS> WS> WS> What does the federation like anyway? You don't understand. If the federation doesn't like them, we're all supposed to get into line and agree without complaining - and CERTAINLY without thinking for ourselves. -- Uucp: ..!{decvax,oliveb}!bunker!hcap!hnews!106!729!Jeff.Salzberg Internet: Jeff.Salzberg@f729.n106.z1.fidonet.org
Paula.Mack@f6.n377.z1.fidonet.org (Paula Mack) (11/02/90)
Index Number: 11473 [This is from the Blink Talk Conference] PG> paula the problems with those safety tiles is that if the PG> station is above ground and the temperature remains below 32 PG> degrees for any length of time, they won't adhere and will PG> eventually come off the surfact they are glued to. I didn't know that about the subway tiles, but maybe they could be made of a more weather-resistant material. PG> key is to find a cane that has a sensitive enough of a tip to PG> allow you to distinguish between the two. I myself also use a PG> 63 inch cane that gives me plenty of room to stop should I be PG> walking fast. Invariably mobility instructors give people PG> canes that are too short. As far as the issue of the long vs. the short cane, I agree with you there. I remember when I was a teenager living in NY and having a big argument with the people at the Lighthouse store because I wanted to buy a cane that they insisted was way too long. However, I still think that people shouldn't have to pay for having poor mobility skills with their lives. Think of all the incompetent sighted people that live their lives unhindered, and the blind should be able to be just as incompetent. Please don't missunderstand: idon't wish for us to be incompetent at anything. I wish all of us could reach our potential in every way, but I just feel that if someone doesn't, our society has the right to protect them in the same way that others are protected. To me, it's just like what the NFB says regarding the fact that the average person should be able to get the average job. Not every blind person will reach a standare of excellence, but they still have the right to live as whole of a life as they can. Do you see what I mean? Paula ... If you screw up, press ESC. -- Uucp: ..!{decvax,oliveb}!bunker!hcap!hnews!377!6!Paula.Mack Internet: Paula.Mack@f6.n377.z1.fidonet.org
Paula.Mack@f6.n377.z1.fidonet.org (Paula Mack) (11/02/90)
Index Number: 11474 [This is from the Blink Talk Conference] BK> the blind person using their cane to be alert to the fact the BK> mode of transportation they're using can be inherently BK> dangerous and it might behoove them to be cautious? As I have BK> said before, I don't blame anyone for the incident that BK> happened to me, but you can bet that if I'm on a platform ever BK> again I'm gonna be a damn sight more carefull than I've been in BK> the past. To me, that's the bottom line. It's not up to me to BK> speak for other blind people or to cast aspersions, but for me, BK> I know what works for my own safety. Bill K. --- ZMailQ 1.10 Bill, I understand what you are saying, but I think we are all missing the point here. Of course, we are all ultimately responsible for our safety. However, I don't feel that the price for having less than excellent mobility skills should be death. That is just too strict a punishment. paula ... Press F1 to Reboot -- Uucp: ..!{decvax,oliveb}!bunker!hcap!hnews!377!6!Paula.Mack Internet: Paula.Mack@f6.n377.z1.fidonet.org