Dan.Kysor@f11.n203.z1.fidonet.org (Dan Kysor) (10/10/90)
Index Number: 10997
[This is from the Blink Talk Conference]
right on henry!!!
about preferential seating, there's nothing worse than a 90 year
old gal who offers a seat to a blind person and that blind person
"takes the seat". the poor gal can hardly stand on her own on the
bus/train etc... just thought i'd throw that in...
--
Uucp: ..!{decvax,oliveb}!bunker!hcap!hnews!203!11!Dan.Kysor
Internet: Dan.Kysor@f11.n203.z1.fidonet.orgWalter.Siren.@p18.f5.n396.z1.fidonet.org (Walter Siren ) (10/10/90)
Index Number: 11000
[This is from the Blink Talk Conference]
DK> right on henry!!!
DK> about preferential seating, there's nothing worse than a 90 year old
DK> gal who offers a seat to a blind person and that blind person "takes
DK> the seat". the poor gal can hardly stand on her own on the bus/train
DK> etc... just thought i'd throw that in...
Yeh, there is one thing worse. When she offers her seat to the
blind man, and he insists that she stay there, and that he is fine
standing up, and she still insists, getting everyone elses
attention, and then in order to end the problem, you have to take
her seat to shut her up. I have seen this happen several times.
Walter
--
Uucp: ..!{decvax,oliveb}!bunker!hcap!hnews!396!5.18!Walter.Siren.
Internet: Walter.Siren.@p18.f5.n396.z1.fidonet.orgGary.Petraccaro@f90.n129.z1.fidonet.org (Gary Petraccaro) (10/10/90)
Index Number: 11005
[This is from the Blink Talk Conference]
-> In a message to Dan Kysor <10-05-90 08:14> Walter Siren wrote:
->
-> WS> Yeh, there is one thing worse. When she offers her
-> WS> seat to the blind man, and he insists that she stay there,
-> WS> and that he is fine standing up, and she still insists,
-> WS> getting everyone elses attention, and then in order to end
-> WS> the problem, you have to take her seat to shut her up. I
-> WS> have seen this happen several times.
Walter,
Try something like:
Ma'am, I was brought up to offer my seat to women. Thank you for the kind
offer, but I just cannot accept. Have a very nice day, and thank you
again.
--
Uucp: ..!{decvax,oliveb}!bunker!hcap!hnews!129!90!Gary.Petraccaro
Internet: Gary.Petraccaro@f90.n129.z1.fidonet.orgHenry.Kasten@f10.n130.z1.fidonet.org (Henry Kasten) (10/10/90)
Index Number: 11006
[This is from the Blink Talk Conference]
Hi Al,
You asked some questions about the benefits of being a dog guide
user. Your first question was, "1. What can you do with a dog
that I can't with ease and speed with my cane." Al, the number one
purpose of a trained dog guide is to get the master where they want
to go safely. That is all. Anything else they may do is purely
secondary. The function of your cane is the same as that of the
dog guide. This brings up an interesting subject. If the
functionality of the two are the same, then why bother with having
a choice? If you were to do a Value Engineering study on travel
for the visually impaired, and dog guides and canes were the only
viable options, I think the outcome would boil down to personal
reference of the evaluator. In other words, neither would win. Al,
different strokes for different folks. Obviously, to me, Falcon is
the best dog guide in the world and of course he came from the best
school. Whether you or anyone else believes this, is irrelevant.
I only have to satisfy my needs, no one else. I am sure that there
are people out there who will disagree, dog guides, they might say
are safer, There are dangers out there that a cane won't find in
time, etc. I can't buy those kinds of statements because dog guide
users are just as likely to have an accident as a cane user. We
all need to pay attention to where we are headed.
That was the end of your questions, the rest were arguments. I did
have one question though, you said, "I bet a dog user would get one
advantage here traveling on the subways however. The person would
get a "handicapped," seat faster than the cane traveler." Tell me
Al, why in the world would you need a handicapped seat? Are you
Orthopedically impaired as well as Visually Impaired? Al, allow me
to reiterate, no one needs a dog. There is nothing magical about
a dog, unless of course you want a dog, then their is inexplicable
magic. Henry
--
Uucp: ..!{decvax,oliveb}!bunker!hcap!hnews!130!10!Henry.Kasten
Internet: Henry.Kasten@f10.n130.z1.fidonet.orgAl.Hoffman@p0.f143.n109.z1.fidonet.org (Al Hoffman) (10/10/90)
Index Number: 11013
[This is from the Blink Talk Conference]
I first don't see the two as opposed. Second, about the handicapped
seating, no, I'm fine ortho wise, but the seats are handy because they
are near the door, can scramble off fast, no bumping with cane "or dog,"
for an empty seat in the middle of the car, which you will get to later
than the sseeing peer, and thusly will miss out on usually. Anyway,
personal choice is a valid option, but Walter mention one thing. The
dog watching for cars would be OK, but I have been lucky so far, no real
close ones yet, but my day is coming probablly.
Thanks for the response to you and Walter both.
--
Uucp: ..!{decvax,oliveb}!bunker!hcap!hnews!109!143.0!Al.Hoffman
Internet: Al.Hoffman@p0.f143.n109.z1.fidonet.orgThomas.Belsan@f15.n114.z1.fidonet.org (Thomas Belsan) (10/10/90)
Index Number: 11014
[This is from the Blink Talk Conference]
I agree Henry.
There are advantages and disadvantages to both dogs
and canes. I am currently teamed with a dog
she and I have a good relationship. I love her and she
loves me. I got around very well when I used my
cane.
You are correct it is a personal preference.
I do like the affection Sheba and I exchange.
But you don't need plastic bags with a cane.
Tom
--
Uucp: ..!{decvax,oliveb}!bunker!hcap!hnews!114!15!Thomas.Belsan
Internet: Thomas.Belsan@f15.n114.z1.fidonet.orgTom.Gerhart@f722.n273.z1.fidonet.org (Tom Gerhart) (10/10/90)
Index Number: 11048
[This is from the Blink Talk Conference]
DK> right on henry!!!
DK> about preferential seating, there's nothing worse than a 90
DK> year old gal who offers a seat to a blind person and that blind
DK> person "takes the seat". the poor gal can hardly stand on her
DK> own on the bus/train etc... just thought i'd throw that in...
HI Dan,
You are forgetting how wonderful that old lady feels giving that poor young
blind person a seat and thats why I feel it is myduty as a represenative of
the blind community to take the seat so people around me will realize
that blindpeople can be as thoughtless as sighted people and that will cause
them to treat me the same way they treat every one else. tomg. G
--
Uucp: ..!{decvax,oliveb}!bunker!hcap!hnews!273!722!Tom.Gerhart
Internet: Tom.Gerhart@f722.n273.z1.fidonet.orgDan.Kysor@f11.n203.z1.fidonet.org (Dan Kysor) (10/10/90)
Index Number: 11055
[This is from the Blink Talk Conference]
yah, i know the routine, heard it many times in the bay area. the
one that gets is a blind person gets on the bus and there's an old
person sitting on the long seat by the driver and the blink says
"that seat is reserved for blind" and the driver backs the blind
person up and that poor person teetors to a possible seat
towards the back of the bus!! dan, out of sight, out of my mind!
--
Uucp: ..!{decvax,oliveb}!bunker!hcap!hnews!203!11!Dan.Kysor
Internet: Dan.Kysor@f11.n203.z1.fidonet.orgDan.Kysor@f11.n203.z1.fidonet.org (Dan Kysor) (10/12/90)
Index Number: 11073
[This is from the Blink Talk Conference]
i know what you mean. it's a difficult situation and one we've all
encountered i'm sure. i guess there's no right thing to do in that
situation and honestly, i have not always been the perfect
gentlemen. your point is a good one about being represenatives of
the blind. once, i had a special educator tell me, "for every
sighted person you allienate, you allienate 5 more". a few weeks
later, i was driving with him in traffic and he yelled out his
window at a passing motorist something not repeatable in this echo
regarding their herritage. I couldn't help but remind him that for
every sighted person he yelled at, there's always one blind person
sitting next to him applauding!
--
Uucp: ..!{decvax,oliveb}!bunker!hcap!hnews!203!11!Dan.Kysor
Internet: Dan.Kysor@f11.n203.z1.fidonet.orgTom.Gerhart@f210.n273.z1.fidonet.org (Tom Gerhart) (10/26/90)
Index Number: 11312
[This is from the Blink Talk Conference]
David,
Just a question or two, if this is true what you say about the kind of
training needed to be able to use a cane in a confident manner, and
intensive training would do the job, then why are there no schools to
provide this training. It certainly would be much cheaper and should
require alot less overhead no dogs to wory about. I have heard
both national organizations talk about this kind of training but
there are only three or four places in the country where you can
get this kind of training. How about less hype and more training? tom
G.
--
Uucp: ..!{decvax,oliveb}!bunker!hcap!hnews!273!210!Tom.Gerhart
Internet: Tom.Gerhart@f210.n273.z1.fidonet.orgVixen@f11.n203.z1.fidonet.org (Vixen) (10/31/90)
Index Number: 11422
[This is from the Blink Talk Conference]
DAVID ANDREWS> Lately there has been a lot of talk on this echo about canes
DAVID ANDREWS> versus dogs. I think they are both a tool and the person
DAVID ANDREWS> should use what is comfortable.
I don't believe anyone in this echo would would disagree with you on that.
DAVID ANDREWS> However, this echo seems to have a large number of dog users
DAVID ANDREWS> and I would like to say a couple of things about the cane,
DAVID ANDREWS> which have occurred to me.
Yes and the tone of your message has a slightly defensive taint, which might
make some think you have some personal resentment towards dog users.
DAVID ANDREWS> First, I have known some dog users, who went to a dog because
DAVID ANDREWS> they weren't comfortable using a cane. In general, this is
DAVID ANDREWS> because they did not have good training.
Well, my friend, I do not find this a very plausiable or likely explanation
of why very many people become dog users and it doesn't ring true. If you
know anything about using a Guide Dog or Guide Dog schools, you should well
know that a person who is a poor cane traveler and does not have good
mobility is not going to be a good dog user and in most cases, will not
even get into a dog school unless he or she has some kind of special clout.
Your implication that a poor cane traveler can find easier going by becoming
a dog user is just plain false.
Remember David, the dogs do not take us traveling at their whim, we must make
the dogs take us where we want to go, just as you must point your long cane
in the directions you wish to travel. The fact of the matter is, that one
had better already have good mobility skills if they wish to use a guide dog.
The Guide Dog is not mean't for the person with lesser mobility as your
tone implies, it is for the person that wishes greater and faster mobility.
DAVID ANDREWS> They then go to a dog school and receive 4 to 8 weeks of
DAVID ANDREWS> intensive training and can use it okay. They then think the
DAVID ANDREWS> the dog is better.
I think my friend,that you have got that a bit backwards as well. I would
venture to tell you that dog users make a decision that a dog may be better
suited to their lifestyles before they go to dog school, not when they get
there. It is why we go in the first place.
One must develope more of a sense of traveling responsibility than ever, not
less! One must learn a whole new "Traveling language" and how to use their
feet in the proper position, how to be aware when the guide dog begins to
behave in certain manners, how to know when the dog is wrong from when the
dog user is wrong, to be aware that a dangerous or fatal traveling mistake
can cost both the person and the dog. It also requires that the dog user
know that the Guide Dog relies just as much on the person as the person does
on the dog. Using a Guide Dog requires the mobility skills needed to use a
cane, plus more. So, the concept that going to a Guide Dog is what to do to
find a more comfortable or easier way to travel for those with inadequate
cane skill, is ludicrous. I am sorry, but you are just plain wrong.
DAVID ANDREWS> I think that using a cane involves having confidence in
DAVID ANDREWS> yourself and when using a dog, you put your confidence and
DAVID ANDREWS> trust in the dog.
David, I would refer you back to my above paragraph. This comment tells me
that you really have very little understanding of what using a Guide Dog is
all about and the reality of what using a Guide Dog requires. If you don't
think using a Guide Dog requires self confidence in your own personal ability
then you had better think again. You learn to trust your dog because you have
confidence that you can make your dog take you where you need to go safely!
The dog doesn't just do all the work for the blind person. Using a dog
requires a constant partnership and the proper commands from the person as
to which direction to go, when to go, and so much more. It is work, you
don't just grab onto the harness and the dog does all the work! A person not
confident in using a cane is not going to be any more confident with a dog
and probably will not even make it through the school training. So, I am
sorry, but your suggestion that the dog user puts all of her trust and
confidence in the dog while the cane user puts it into him or herself, just
doesn't wash either. It takes a considerable amount of self confidence to
use a dog. I really think you need to become better informed about Guide Dog
use and training because a lot of what you say and imply just is not true.
DAVID ANDREWS> Using a cane is 90 percent confidence and ten percent
DAVID ANDREWS> technigue in my opinion. With better training, many more
DAVID ANDREWS> people could use a cane successfully.
And with this comment, you again imply that Guide Dogs are for those persons
who cannot use a long cane successfully or comfortably and this totally goes
against the grain of the reality, for all of the reasons I have stated above.
As for me, before I got my dog, as I believe you already know and so do others
here, I was a cane traveler myself. In fact, I was not only a good cane
traveler, in the past year, before switching to a dog, I became nothing short
of an excellent cane traveler. I am still able to go anywhere I wish to go
using a long cane and do use it still, when going to places I will not bring
my dog, such as loud rock concerts. I will bet I use a long cane as well
as you or anyone on this echo. So, this idea that we go to dogs because they
are easier to use than long canes or because we are not good cane users is
baloney. In fact, I would go out on a limb and say that it is probable that
every dog user in this echo was probably quite a very good cane traveler
before they became dog users. My last O and M instructor was Gina Woods at
the Sacramento Society for the Blind and I am sure she will speak highly of
my ability using a long cane! There are many reasons I switched to a dog, but
none of them had thing to do with discomfort or lack or skill using a long
cane or lack of confidence in myself. That is a bunch of phooey.
In fact, many of the dog schools, such as mine, require that a person have
pretty good cane skills before they can even get into the program. This is
not to say there aren't any bad dog users or exceptions to the rule, because
there is and there are. But all in all, I must take exception to your
comments and implications because they are ill informed and some just plain
untrue.
As for the long cane itself. There is absolutely nothing wrong at all, in
deciding that the cane is more than adequate for a persons lifestyle. It is
still a symbol and tool for independence and the cane user is no lesser nor
more a better traveler than a dog traveler. We all have different skills and
abilities irregardless of whether we are dog or cane travelers. As I said, I
am very skilled with my long cane and I have not tossed it out because I
have become a dog user. But I do think your message was posted more out
of unnecessary defensiveness than from an "informed" point of view on what
using a Guide Dog properly, is really all about.
I see no reason for a cane user to feel defensive at all. It is not a lesser
way to travel, it is just different! I hope my brother and sister dog users
in this echo, who have been dog users much longer than I, will feel that I
expressed what using a dog is all about, adequately. I felt that your post
required a response.
Keepin' the faith!
. Vixen
--
Uucp: ..!{decvax,oliveb}!bunker!hcap!hnews!203!11!Vixen
Internet: Vixen@f11.n203.z1.fidonet.orgWilliam.Wilson@f89.n129.z1.fidonet.org (William Wilson) (11/02/90)
Index Number: 11455
[This is from the Blink Talk Conference]
Well, I'm doing my last minute packing (How do you fit 6 pounds of
poop in a 5 pound bag?) in preparation for my 8:40 AM flight to
doggieland east tomorrow, and this seemed like a good place to jump in
and give my parting thoughts.
First of all, you're in Charge Gary! I really have no idea how
often I'll be able to check in, and I have a feeling that a young pooch
is going to cause me to hit the sack at an earlier hour than I've done
in a while, so keep this roudy bunch in line, ok?
I am, frankly, surprised at the anticipation I feel right now, as I
thought this would only be true with the initial dog training. How come
none of you other "old timers" told me about this? This image of me and
a French poodle keeps appearing in my mind's eye, and it's driving me
even crazier!
Finally, I have to say something to you Vixen...
V> your message was posted more out of unnecessary defensiveness
V> than from an "informed" point of view on what using a Guide Dog
V> properly, is really all about. I see no reason for a cane user
V> to feel defensive at all. It is not a lesser way to travel, it
V> is just different! I hope my brother and sister dog users in
V> this echo, who have been dog users much longer than I, will
V> feel that I expressed what using a dog is all about,
Not only do I think you described it quite well, I totally agree with
your analysis of the reasons for David's message!
Vixen, I said this a long time ago when this thread first started,
and I'll say it again. I have never seen an effective dog user who
wasn't an effective cane user prior to getting their companion, I have
never seen a guide dog user get defensive over their use of a dog when
unprovoked, but I've seen the opposite quite often, and basically
speaking, the same people who tell us what sighted people will think by
tactile strips in subway stations or audible traffic signals tell us,
the people who have used both canes and dogs for travel, what it is like
to use a guide dog!
In your own words Vixen, it is LUDICROUS! One of the best messages
in this thread, prior to yours, was posted by our pop, Walter! He,
being the only one I think we've heard from that went from a dog back to
a cane, said that it was for reasons other than inconveniences imposed
by the dog, or that his mobility was less with the dog, but rather
because he simply didn't travel as much as he used to! As all us guide
dog users know, Walter realized the same thing we do, that the primary
thing that determines whether or not a dog is a good guide or not is IF
IT IS USED!
Just like putting on a blindfold for a few hours isn't going to
give a person an accurate perception of what it means to be blind, a
person telling us who have seen both sides of the coin what it is like
to use a guide dog or what sighted people will think without ever having
been in either position themselves is ridiculous! I certainly don't
think a guide dog is necessary for every blink, or even that it would be
anything but wrong for some blinks, but the day I begin taking seriously
the negative dog statements made by those who have never used a guide
dog is the same day I quit chasing women and shave off my beard!
Vixen, I have never been more sure about my decision to get another
guide dog than I am right now, and your message did that for me! If
ever my new mutt and I make it out there to your neck of the woods,
we're going to buy you a couple, ok?
Willie
... BlinkTalk, Dr. Deb and Silver in Pittsburgh!
--
Uucp: ..!{decvax,oliveb}!bunker!hcap!hnews!129!89!William.Wilson
Internet: William.Wilson@f89.n129.z1.fidonet.orgWalter.Siren@p18.f5.n396.z1.fidonet.org (Walter Siren) (11/02/90)
Index Number: 11468
[This is from the Blink Talk Conference]
V> DAVID ANDREWS> First, I have known some dog users, who went to a dog
V> because
V> DAVID ANDREWS> they weren't comfortable using a cane. In general, this is
V> DAVID ANDREWS> because they did not have good training.
V>
V> Well, my friend, I do not find this a very plausiable or likely
V> explanation
V> of why very many people become dog users and it doesn't ring true. If you
V> know anything about using a Guide Dog or Guide Dog schools, you should
V> well
V> know that a person who is a poor cane traveler and does not have good
V> mobility is not going to be a good dog user and in most cases, will not
V> even get into a dog school unless he or she has some kind of special
V> clout.
V> Your implication that a poor cane traveler can find easier going by
V> becoming
V> a dog user is just plain false.
Vixen, that is not completely true. The better cane traveler will
make a better dog traveler. However, to say that a poor cane
traveler will not make a good guide dog user is false, and that
they will not get into guidedog school is also false.
My wife admits that she was nota good cane traveler, but she was a
good guidedog traveler. Naturally she could have been a better
traveler if she was a better cane traveler.
V> Remember David, the dogs do not take us traveling at their whim, we must
V> make
V> the dogs take us where we want to go, just as you must point your long
V> cane
V> in the directions you wish to travel.
AAgain, Vixen, this is not quite true as you will find out when you
gain experience with your dog. One example is one time my wife and
I got off a bus at a rest stop, and it came time to get back on the
bus, we did not know whitch way to go. The dog took us back to the
bus we got off of, out of about ten busses. My cane could not have
done that for us.
V> had better already have good mobility skills if they wish to use a guide
V>
V> DAVID ANDREWS> yourself and when using a dog, you put your confidence and
V> DAVID ANDREWS> trust in the dog.
V>
V> David, I would refer you back to my above paragraph. This comment tells me
V> that you really have very little understanding of what using a Guide Dog
V> is
V> all about and the reality of what using a Guide Dog requires. If you don't
V> think using a Guide Dog requires self confidence in your own personal
V> ability
V> then you had better think again. You learn to trust your dog because you
V> have
V> confidence that you can make your dog take you where you need to go
V> safely!
V>
V> The dog doesn't just do all the work for the blind person. Using a dog
V> requires a constant partnership and the proper commands from the person as
V> to which direction to go, when to go, and so much more. It is work, you
V> don't just grab onto the harness and the dog does all the work! A person
V> not
V> confident in using a cane is not going to be any more confident with a dog
V> and probably will not even make it through the school training. So, I am
V> sorry, but your suggestion that the dog user puts all of her trust and
V> confidence in the dog while the cane user puts it into him or herself,
V> just
V> doesn't wash either. It takes a considerable amount of self confidence to
V> use a dog. I really think you need to become better informed about Guide
V> Dog
V> use and training because a lot of what you say and imply just is not true
When you get more experience with using a dog, I think that you
will change your views. To say that a person that has no
confidence in a cane can't make with a dog is hog wash. The main
reason I went to get a dog, was while I had been a good cane user,
I was getting to be chicken about traveling around, and I regained
my self confidence in using a dog. AFter I did this, I was able to
use a cane again with out any problem. btw a guidedog user, has
to put a lot of confidence in his or her dog, or It will not work.
True you have to know where you are going, but when obstacles get
in your way, you have to believe that your dog will take you around
them.
V> DAVID ANDREWS> Using a cane is 90 percent confidence and ten percent
V> DAVID ANDREWS> technigue in my opinion. With better training, many more
V> DAVID ANDREWS> people could use a cane successfully.
V>
V> And with this comment, you again imply that Guide Dogs are for those
V> persons
V> who cannot use a long cane successfully or comfortably and this totally
V> goes
V> against the grain of the reality, for all of the reasons I have stated
V> above.
To contridict that, I would have to repeating.
V> As for me, before I got my dog, as I believe you already know and so do
V> others
V> here, I was a cane traveler myself. In fact, I was not only a good cane
V> traveler, in the past year, before switching to a dog, I became nothing
V> short
V> of an excellent cane traveler. I am still able to go anywhere I wish to go
V> using a long cane and do use it still, when going to places I will not
V> bring
V> my dog, such as loud rock concerts. I will bet I use a long cane as well
V> as you or anyone on this echo. So, this idea that we go to dogs because
V> they
V> are easier to use than long canes or because we are not good cane users is
V> baloney. In fact, I would go out on a limb and say that it is probable
V> that
V> every dog user in this echo was probably quite a very good cane traveler
V> before they became dog users.
Don't get too far out on that limb unless you have a net below you,
or make sure that is a good strong limb.
V> the Sacramento Society for the Blind and I am sure she will speak highly
V> of
V> my ability using a long cane!
I don't think that there is any one on here who doubts your cane
traveling ability. Remember, that along with your cane traveling
ability, you do have some sight. If you can read a computer
screen, your little vision must help you some. There is a
difference between your situation and a totally blind person. When
I was younger, I had enough sight to see objects, and not enough to
read any sort of print, but I did not realize what a difference
that little of sight made untill I lost it.
V> comments and implications because they are ill informed and some just
V> plain
V> untrue.
Every one has a right to different opinion, but to say someone
else's opinion is untrue, is I think going a little far.
V> As for the long cane itself. There is absolutely nothing wrong at all, in
V> deciding that the cane is more than adequate for a persons lifestyle. It
V> is
V> still a symbol and tool for independence and the cane user is no lesser
V> nor
V> more a better traveler than a dog traveler. We all have different skills
V> and
V> abilities irregardless of whether we are dog or cane travelers.
Vixen, there we agree.
V> in this echo, who have been dog users much longer than I, will feel that I
V> expressed what using a dog is all about, adequately. I felt that your post
V> required a response.
As I previously said, I think that your views will change as you
learn more about using a guidedog a little longer.
Walter
--
Uucp: ..!{decvax,oliveb}!bunker!hcap!hnews!396!5.18!Walter.Siren
Internet: Walter.Siren@p18.f5.n396.z1.fidonet.orgDavid.Andrews@f89.n129.z1.fidonet.org (David Andrews) (11/02/90)
Index Number: 11482
[This is from the Blink Talk Conference]
TG> David,
TG> Just a question or two, if this is true what you say about the
TG> kind of training needed to be able to use a cane in a confident
TG> manner, and intensive training would do the job, then why are
TG> there no schools to provide this training. It certainly would
TG> be much cheaper and should require alot less overhead no dogs
TG> to wory about. I have heard both national organizations
TG> talk about this kind of training but there are only three or
TG> four places in the country where you can get this kind of
TG> training. How about less hype and more training? tom G.
Tom, It is a good question you ask. There are a number of places
in this country where you can get good travel training, but they
are in the minority. Most of them use techniques and philosophies
developed by the National Federation of the Blind. They include
the New Mexico Commission for the Blind, Services for the Blind in
Nebraska, The Louisana Center for the Blind in Ruston, BLIND Inc.,
in Minneapolis and the Colorado Center for the Blind in Denver.
There are probably a few others, but these are the ones that come
to mind. All these centers use techniques and ideas primarily
developed at the Iowa Commission for the Blind in the 1960's and
1970's. One thing that most of these Centers do is have blind
people teach travel. This is something that most of the sighted
travel professionals, and I use that term advisedly, do not agree
with. In fact AERBVI will not certify a blind travel teacher.
Personally, I know that is hog wash, as I have successfully taught
travel, and I can't see a thing.
Many sighted instructors do not fundamentally believe in the
ultimate capacity for the blind to travel anywhere safely, or
teach. That is because they have not had good sleep shade
straining, so don't believe in blind people and our capacities.
There was a message in the last couple days from someone who
related the experience of a friend who had gone through a rehab
center and said that they told him that blind people couldn't use
traffic lights safely. Well, most of us, if not all of us know
that is garbage.
Now, to your question about hype versus action. I know in the NFB
there has been a debate for a number of years as to whether we
should take an active role in providing training ourselves, or if
we are primarily a "watchdog organization" and our proper role is
to get the system to provide what we need. For the most part, the
watchdog function has won out, although some local affiliates,
Colorado, Louisiana, Minnesota, have stepped in and filled what
they saw as a void. I could argue that one either way. We have
limited resources, time, money, etc., and we have to put them where
they will do the most good. Hope this answers your questions.
David Andrews
... Your Sound Alternative
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Uucp: ..!{decvax,oliveb}!bunker!hcap!hnews!129!89!David.Andrews
Internet: David.Andrews@f89.n129.z1.fidonet.orgMartha.Johnson@f778.n115.z1.fidonet.org (Martha Johnson) (11/02/90)
Index Number: 11483
[This is from the Blink Talk Conference]
I have been listening to this thread all along. I was a cane user before
I started getting dogs. The reason I got a dog was I thought it might
keep me from walking so crooked. Also the dog is a very good protector
especially here in Chicago. You would be suprised, maybe not, the people
that will run a mile to get away fro Heather and me. If I don't have a
job by the time it comes to get another dog I might not get another one.
I'm tired of people not watching where they are steping when they get on
the bus. There is always another passenger who sounds like a broken
record saying"watch the dog." The reason I sit on the side seat near the
driver is the stops are not being called enough, and if you aren't on
your toes you will miss the stop al together.
Martie
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Uucp: ..!{decvax,oliveb}!bunker!hcap!hnews!115!778!Martha.Johnson
Internet: Martha.Johnson@f778.n115.z1.fidonet.orgDavid.Andrews@f89.n129.z1.fidonet.org (David Andrews) (11/02/90)
Index Number: 11486
[This is from the Blink Talk Conference]
DAVID ANDREWS> However, this echo seems to have a large number
V> of dog users DAVID ANDREWS> and I would like to say a couple of
V> things about the cane, DAVID ANDREWS> which have occurred to me.
V> Yes and the tone of your message has a slightly defensive
V> taint, which might make some think you have some personal
V> resentment towards dog users.
You are probably right that my message is a little defensive. This
is an emotional issue as it becomes a part of who we are and how we
see ourselves. I, and others, are probably guilty of thinking that
our method is the best and only, and trying to convince everyone
else. We then take a right or wrong, win or loose position, one
that no one can win. Sorry!
DAVID ANDREWS> First, I have known some dog users, who went to
V> a dog because DAVID ANDREWS> they weren't comfortable using a
V> cane. In general, this is DAVID ANDREWS> because they did not
V> have good training.
V> Well, my friend, I do not find this a very plausiable or likely
V> explanation of why very many people become dog users and it
V> doesn't ring true. If you know anything about using a Guide Dog
V> or Guide Dog schools, you should well know that a person who is
V> a poor cane traveler and does not have good mobility is not
V> going to be a good dog user and in most cases, will not even
V> get into a dog school unless he or she has some kind of special
V> clout. Your implication that a poor cane traveler can find
V> easier going by becoming a dog user is just plain false.
V> Remember David, the dogs do not take us traveling at their
V> whim, we must make the dogs take us where we want to go, just
V> as you must point your long cane in the directions you wish to
V> travel. The fact of the matter is, that one had better already
V> have good mobility skills if they wish to use a guide dog. The
V> Guide Dog is not mean't for the person with lesser mobility as
V> your tone implies, it is for the person that wishes greater and
V> faster mobility.
You say that the dog is ment for someone who wants faster and
greater mobility. That implies that you think the dog is better,
which is an individual matter. I agree that a person should be a
"good" cane user to use a dog. However "good" is a relative term.
Most people start with a cane. While there will be exceptions, if
most people were happy with aond comfortable with their cane skills
they probably wouldn't get a dog. While there are benefits, speed
for some, companionship, ice breaker etc., there are also
disadvantages, cost, time away from home or job, feeding, bathroom
problems, hair etc., so you have to want a dog and/or be unhappy
with your cane skills. A dog user does need to know where she/he
is going, make those decisions etc., but does not have to concern
her/him self with details that a cane user needs. I was not trying
to deminish dog using skills, they are different.
DAVID ANDREWS> They then go to a dog school
V> and receive 4 to 8 weeks of DAVID ANDREWS> intensive training
V> and can use it okay. They then think the DAVID ANDREWS> the dog
V> is better.
V> I think my friend,that you have got that a bit backwards as
V> well. I would venture to tell you that dog users make a
V> decision that a dog may be better suited to their lifestyles
V> before they go to dog school, not when they get there. It is
V> why we go in the first place.
V> One must develope more of a sense of traveling responsibility
V> than ever, not less! One must learn a whole new "Traveling
V> language" and how to use their feet in the proper position, how
V> to be aware when the guide dog begins to behave in certain
V> manners, how to know when the dog is wrong from when the dog
V> user is wrong, to be aware that a dangerous or fatal traveling
V> mistake can cost both the person and the dog. It also requires
V> that the dog user know that the Guide Dog relies just as much
V> on the person as the person does on the dog. Using a Guide Dog
V> requires the mobility skills needed to use a cane, plus more.
V> So, the concept that going to a Guide Dog is what to do to find
V> a more comfortable or easier way to travel for those with
V> inadequate cane skill, is ludicrous. I am sorry, but you are
V> just plain wrong. DAVID ANDREWS> I think that using a cane
V> involves having confidence in DAVID ANDREWS> yourself and when
V> using a dog, you put your confidence and DAVID ANDREWS> trust
V> in the dog. David, I would refer you back to my above
V> paragraph. This comment tells me that you really have very
V> little understanding of what using a Guide Dog is all about and
V> the reality of what using a Guide Dog requires. If you don't
V> think using a Guide Dog requires self confidence in your own
V> personal ability then you had better think again. You learn to
V> trust your dog because you have confidence that you can make
V> your dog take you where you need to go safely! The dog doesn't
V> just do all the work for the blind person. Using a dog requires
V> a constant partnership and the proper commands from the person
V> as to which direction to go, when to go, and so much more. It
V> is work, you don't just grab onto the harness and the dog does
V> all the work! A person not confident in using a cane is not
V> going to be any more confident with a dog and probably will not
V> even make it through the school training. So, I am sorry, but
V> your suggestion that the dog user puts all of her trust and
V> confidence in the dog while the cane user puts it into him or
V> herself, just doesn't wash either. It takes a considerable
V> amount of self confidence to use a dog. I really think you need
V> to become better informed about Guide Dog use and training
V> because a lot of what you say and imply just is not true.
I must admit that I probably simplified things a bit, however, you
say that dog users must have the skills that cane users have plus
more. We both must have the same basic orientation skills,
deciding whether to turn right or left at the cornier, when it is
safe to cross etc. Cane users must keep track of landmarks, make
decisions about some obstacles etc., while dog users must work with
the dog and do the things you point out. So, one is not more
skilled then the other, just different.
DAVID V> ANDREWS> Using a cane is 90 percent confidence and ten percent
V> DAVID ANDREWS> technigue in my opinion. With better training,
V> many more DAVID ANDREWS> people could use a cane successfully.
V> And with this comment, you again imply that Guide Dogs are for
V> those persons who cannot use a long cane successfully or
V> comfortably and this totally goes against the grain of the
V> reality, for all of the reasons I have stated above.
V> As for me, before I got my dog, as I believe you already know
V> and so do others here, I was a cane traveler myself. In fact, I
V> was not only a good cane traveler, in the past year, before
V> switching to a dog, I became nothing short of an excellent cane
V> traveler. I am still able to go anywhere I wish to go using a
V> long cane and do use it still, when going to places I will not
V> bring my dog, such as loud rock concerts. I will bet I use a
V> long cane as well as you or anyone on this echo. So, this idea
V> that we go to dogs because they are easier to use than long
V> canes or because we are not good cane users is baloney. In
V> fact, I would go out on a limb and say that it is probable that
V> every dog user in this echo was probably quite a very good cane
V> traveler before they became dog users.
I think that you were being a little defensive in the last
paragraph. I was just talking about the confidence needed to use a
cane, not putting down dogs in any way.
I must go back to my fundamental premice, which is that most people
in this country have not had very good travel training with a cane,
so that they don't develop the confidence and skills that they
could with good training. As an example, most people are given
canes that are two short. My cane comes to my nose. Anything
shorter then my chin or neck does not give me enough warning of
obstacles. Most, if not all of the dog schools, seem to do a
pretty good job, and most of their graduates become fine travelers,
probably better travelers then they were with a cane, due to the
level of training most people get with each. I have had a number
of people tell me that they got a dog because they were not
comfortable with their cane skills. Some of them were from New
Jersey, where I got my travel training, which was terrible. I have
learned and taught mys3elf good skills since then. You made a
conscious decision to get a dog, fought for it and accomplished
it. You should be prould of yourself and what you did. Many of my
observations have more to do with the deplorable level of travel
training, as I see it, in this country.
David Andrews
... Your Sound Alternative
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Uucp: ..!{decvax,oliveb}!bunker!hcap!hnews!129!89!David.Andrews
Internet: David.Andrews@f89.n129.z1.fidonet.orgVixen@f11.n203.z1.fidonet.org (Vixen) (11/14/90)
Index Number: 11687
[This is from the Blink Talk Conference]
Hi,
Well, you know, I would never ever belittle the use and value of
the long cane and fully give all of my support to the idea that
there should be more available quality cane training programs. But,
on the other hand, I just had to take exception to what was being
said about dog users and the implication that many of us are dog
users because we can't cut it with a cane or the implication that
we would not need to resort to using dogs if we had sufficient cane
training.
I would bet that most of us who become dog users do so because it
is what we want and we would choose our dogs no matter how much
more intensive cane training was offered to us.
Personally, I like to say that traveling with my long cane is like
traveling with an old reliable family car while traveling with my
dog is like riding in a sports car. However, either one will get
us where we are going.
Keepin' the faith!
. Vixen
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Uucp: ..!{decvax,oliveb}!bunker!hcap!hnews!203!11!Vixen
Internet: Vixen@f11.n203.z1.fidonet.orgDonna.Veno@p0.f143.n109.z1.fidonet.org (Donna Veno) (11/17/90)
Index Number: 11807
[This is from the Blink Talk Conference]
Right on! Why o Why can't blinkd let blinkd have the dignity to make
personal choices! Shoot, I have been using a long cane since I was
*seven; I'm forty-one now. I had 6 years of intensive and experimental
o & m from what was then la creme de la creme, Boston College's o & m
program. I can pick up a long cane and go when and where I want,
although I am not as confident with the thing because I don't use it on
a daily basis. Why? I'm an animal lover! I love the companionship of
my furry friends; I love the additional speed, and for me, confident
comfort that a guide dog affords. Let's get off it, guys, and argue
about something that really matters. Do sighted people argue over
whether a Toyota Curcell is better than a Toyota Carolla? Like you
said, sister, the dog and the cane have one thing in common--they both
gets ya where ya is trying to get! This makes me nuts, so I'm clicking
off now! <big smile> DV
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Uucp: ..!{decvax,oliveb}!bunker!hcap!hnews!109!143.0!Donna.Veno
Internet: Donna.Veno@p0.f143.n109.z1.fidonet.org