Maggi.Weslager@f89.n129.z1.fidonet.org (Maggi Weslager) (10/26/90)
Index Number: 11316
[This is from the Blink Talk Conference]
PM> Second, the audible traffic signals are
PM> usually a hindrance rather than a help because they make it
PM> hard to listen to the flow of traffic.
Am I missing something here or what? Aren't you supposed to be
listening to the audible traffic light at such an intersection instead of the
flow of traffic?
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Uucp: ..!{decvax,oliveb}!bunker!hcap!hnews!129!89!Maggi.Weslager
Internet: Maggi.Weslager@f89.n129.z1.fidonet.orgJeff.Salzberg@f729.n106.z1.fidonet.org (Jeff Salzberg) (10/31/90)
Index Number: 11383
[This is from the Blink Talk Conference]
DS> The NFB was against the A.
DS> D.A.
Why doesn't that surprise me?
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Uucp: ..!{decvax,oliveb}!bunker!hcap!hnews!106!729!Jeff.Salzberg
Internet: Jeff.Salzberg@f729.n106.z1.fidonet.orgDavid.Andrews@f89.n129.z1.fidonet.org (David Andrews) (10/31/90)
Index Number: 11405
[This is from the Blink Talk Conference]
DS>> Certainly not!! Why do you feel we even need to have those
DS>> audible traffic lights. They have been shown to pose a risk to
DS>> the blind traveller because they can cause a distraction to the
DS>> normal orientation and mobility skills used by a blind person
DS>> to cross those streets. 73
MW> Apparently you don't cross light controlled intersections which
MW> allow for right turns on red. Every morning I cross an
MW> extremely busy intersection which allows right turns on red and
MW> if I didn't have enough residual vision to spot the walk sign,
MW> there's no way I would even attempt that crossing alone.
MW> You'll have to show me the statistics that prove audible cues
MW> from traffic lights detract from the normal O and M skills of a
MW> blind person.
The way totally blind people cross intersections with right on red laws is by
listening for right turning traffic. I am totally blind, corss such
intersections daily, and have taught others to use them at our state Orientation
Center. However, it would be impossible to do so with an audible traffic light
putting up a racket. Further, the presence of such a device may lull a less
skilled traveler into a false sense of security.
David Andrews
... Your Sound Alternative
--
Uucp: ..!{decvax,oliveb}!bunker!hcap!hnews!129!89!David.Andrews
Internet: David.Andrews@f89.n129.z1.fidonet.orgcjohn975@pallas.athenanet.com (John Johnson) (10/31/90)
Index Number: 11430 In article <15194@bunker.UUCP> Maggi.Weslager@f89.n129.z1.fidonet.org writes: >Index Number: 11316 > >listening to the audible traffic light at such an intersection instead of the >flow of traffic? No! No! That's a great way to get yourself hurt or killed. With all the "right on red," laws and left-turn arrows, a "walk," signal is *not* a guarantee that it's safe to proceed. I say instead of wasting so much money on beepers and tweeters, put traffic lights in at busy intersections that don't have them. -- --Chip-- (cjohn975@athenanet.com or uunet!pallas!cjohn975)
David.Andrews@f89.n129.z1.fidonet.org (David Andrews) (11/02/90)
Index Number: 11478
[This is from the Blink Talk Conference]
PM>> Second, the audible traffic signals are
PM>> usually a hindrance rather than a help because they make it
PM>> hard to listen to the flow of traffic.
MW> Am I missing something here or what? Aren't you supposed to be
MW> listening to the audible traffic light at such an intersection
MW> instead of the flow of traffic?
Maggie, You would still have to listen to traffic, for cars turning right on
red etc. Secondly, when an audible traffic light makes its noise, it is telling
you it is safe to cross, but which way. Should you cross this street or that
street? So, either way, you need to listen to traffic flow.
David Andrews
... Your Sound Alternative
--
Uucp: ..!{decvax,oliveb}!bunker!hcap!hnews!129!89!David.Andrews
Internet: David.Andrews@f89.n129.z1.fidonet.orgMaggi.Weslager@f89.n129.z1.fidonet.org (Maggi Weslager) (11/02/90)
Index Number: 11467
[This is from the Blink Talk Conference]
DA> Maggie, You would still have to listen to traffic, for cars
DA> turning right on red etc. Secondly, when an audible traffic
DA> light makes its noise, it is telling you it is safe to cross,
DA> but which way. Should you cross this street or that street?
DA> So, either way, you need to listen to traffic flow. David
The audible traffic lights which I have experienced have also been
exclusive traffic lights, meaning, all traffic stops and the pedestrian
has the exclusive right of way.
If an intersection did not have an exclusive light, wouldn't the
activation buttons for the traffic light indicate to a sighted as well
as a blind person which street was safe to cross?
I detect in your mobility messages a strong bias toward cane
use. I find it quite disheartening to observe such an opinion coming
from a person who claims to have instructed blind individuals in the art
of mobility. Have you ever entertained the thought of getting a guide
dog? Prior to getting my dog two years ago, I felt quite satisfied
using a cane. When my husband Larry fell ill with kidney failure, it
was up to me to maintain his guide dog. I took Yardley, Larry's dog,
around the neighborhood a couple of times, not a recommended behavior
for an untrained dog user, but nonetheless, it turned out to be my
deciding factor to get myself one of those beasts. Don't knock it 'til
you've tried it!
--
Uucp: ..!{decvax,oliveb}!bunker!hcap!hnews!129!89!Maggi.Weslager
Internet: Maggi.Weslager@f89.n129.z1.fidonet.orgDavid.Andrews@f89.n129.z1.fidonet.org (David Andrews) (11/06/90)
Index Number: 11587
[This is from the Blink Talk Conference]
->> In a message to Darrell Shandrow <10-22-90 08:03> Jeff
Salzberg wrote:
->>
->> JS> DS> The NFB was against the A.
->> JS> DS> D.A.
->> JS>
->> JS> Why doesn't that surprise me?
GP> Sure did surprise me. Great news!
Jeff and Gary, have you had your fun being cute and snide?
Actually, Darryl was not corect. The NFB is not oposed the the
ADA and did not come out against it. We did loobby for the
inclusion of one amendment, which was successful. It says that
the use of an accomodation which was available is up to the
disabled individual, not to the provider of the accomodation. I
will explain with an example. Say you were checking into a hotel
and the desk clerk told you that you couldn't stay there because
their "room for the dsiabled" was already taken. You might say,
I don't need that room because I am not phisically disabled so I
want a regular room. He might then say that you have to stay
there because that is the room they have for the disabled, but
since it is full, you will have to go elsewhere. Now, he is not
evil, just uninformed.
Now, I can see some of you say, that is silly, or that may never
happen, but think about the times that somebody wanted you to use
or do something that isn't necessary, such as ride in a wheel
chair at an airport, and people can be insistant.
David Andrews
... Your Sound Alternative
--
Uucp: ..!{decvax,oliveb}!bunker!hcap!hnews!129!89!David.Andrews
Internet: David.Andrews@f89.n129.z1.fidonet.orgDavid.Andrews@f89.n129.z1.fidonet.org (David Andrews) (11/06/90)
Index Number: 11588
[This is from the Blink Talk Conference]
DA>> Maggie, You would still have to listen to traffic, for cars
DA>> turning right on red etc. Secondly, when an audible traffic
DA>> light makes its noise, it is telling you it is safe to cross,
DA>> but which way. Should you cross this street or that street?
DA>> So, either way, you need to listen to traffic flow. David
MW> The audible traffic lights which I have experienced have also
MW> been exclusive traffic lights, meaning, all traffic stops and
MW> the pedestrian has the exclusive right of way.
MW> If an intersection did not have an exclusive light,
MW> wouldn't the activation buttons for the traffic light indicate
MW> to a sighted as well as a blind person which street was safe
MW> to cross?
MW> I detect in your mobility messages a strong bias toward
MW> cane use. I find it quite disheartening to observe such an
MW> opinion coming from a person who claims to have instructed
MW> blind individuals in the art of mobility. Have you ever
MW> entertained the thought of getting a guide dog?
Your point about the buttons telling you which street the buzzer is
for is well taken, howver I personally would want to be able to
hear the traffic in case someone turned right on red or ran the
light.
I have thought about getting a dog but have decided that it isn't
for me. First, I travel well and have not seen any dog travelers
who get around any better then I do with a cane. Because I am
confortable with my travel arrangements I have no reason to put up
with the hassles of using a dog, and I get companionship from my
cat so am not interested in a dog for those reasons. Finally,
while many will disagree with me, I have observed some sighted
people paying attention to a persons dog and not the person. There
was a message to that effect here a couple weeks ago. Yes, Yes,
Yes, I know this isn't universal, and it can work the other way,
somethimes, however, I am not interested in getting involved in
that stuff. I would rather leave the dog for someone who wants it
more than I.
David Andrews
... Your Sound Alternative
--
Uucp: ..!{decvax,oliveb}!bunker!hcap!hnews!129!89!David.Andrews
Internet: David.Andrews@f89.n129.z1.fidonet.orgGlen.Nielson@f778.n115.z1.fidonet.org (Glen Nielson) (11/06/90)
Index Number: 11592
[This is from the Blink Talk Conference]
Hi Maggi:
I lived for a while in San Diego. There were a lot of
audible traffic signals there. I must say that I found them
to be somewhat useful. You do have to pay attention to the
traffic, but the audible tones seem to help you guess when
to cross.
Unfortunately, I have to agree that these devices are bad
for our image. I had more arguments about sitting down on the
bus... I have to stop thinking about it before my headche
starts.
There's no compelling logical reason to believe that the
audible signals had anything to do with my bus-riding mis-
adventures, but my gut tells me there's a connection.
Glen
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Uucp: ..!{decvax,oliveb}!bunker!hcap!hnews!115!778!Glen.Nielson
Internet: Glen.Nielson@f778.n115.z1.fidonet.orgMaggi.Weslager@f89.n129.z1.fidonet.org (Maggi Weslager) (11/06/90)
Index Number: 11604
[This is from the Blink Talk Conference]
Hi David,
I've given more thought to this whole "audible traffic light"
string and have come to realize that each of us is using the mobility
and orientation devices which we have become comfortable with and which
work for us in our travels. For example, I rely on my residual vision
to supplement my O&M skills whereas a totally blind person will rely on
another resource that they have to do what needs to be done.<this is
starting to sound like a Powder Milk Biscuit commercial, isn't it?!>.
Anyhow, I've also noticed that this "individual technique" thing crosses
over into almost all of the subject matter which is presented here on Blink
Talk. Whenever you gather so many individuals together doing their
"individual things" you're bound to run into controversy and we
certainly have seen alot of that haven't we? I'll also point out that
we have also seen some mature responses to controversial subjects and I
find that quite refreshing admist the not so mature responses.
Sometimes it's difficult to convey exactly what you mean to say in a
written response as opposed to a face to face verbal response. As a
result, meanings are misconstrued and misunderstanding breeds.
Enough of this individual's philosophy...on with the show!
BTW...what is your cat's name? We have a seventeen year old, fourteen
pound cat named Sassafrass. She, like your cat, is a lot of company,
and I mean a lot of company!
--
Uucp: ..!{decvax,oliveb}!bunker!hcap!hnews!129!89!Maggi.Weslager
Internet: Maggi.Weslager@f89.n129.z1.fidonet.orgcas@mtdcb.att.com (Cliff Stevens) (11/09/90)
Index Number: 11651 In article <15491@bunker.UUCP>, David.Andrews@f89.n129.z1.fidonet.org (David Andrews) writes: > Index Number: 11587 > > or do something that isn't necessary, such as ride in a wheel > chair at an airport Ok, maybe a wheelchair is not necessary, but it may be a lot more convenient! In an unfamiliar airport it's nice to be pushed exactly where you want to go! And depending on the porter pushing, it may be faster than *ANYONE* can walk! And considering the fact that so few of us travel, and the fact that airports also have golf carts for such uses, there are plenty of rides for people who want them! Now, I don't want to hear, "Oh, wheelchairs are just for the poor cripples, not for us healthy people!". (Facetious, I hope I made my point!) ------------ Militant Handicapped Survivor! Cliff Stevens MT1E228 att!cbnewsj!ncas (908)671-7292
Darrell.Shandrow@f7.n300.z1.fidonet.org (Darrell Shandrow) (11/14/90)
Index Number: 11686
[This is from the Blink Talk Conference]
Yes, I'm in complete agreement. Besides, if drivers can turn right on
red, the audible traffic light may not do a lot of good anyway because you
still have to wait until you can safely cross. Just because the walk sigh
sign and an audible traffic light say its safe does not mean it really is.
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Uucp: ..!{decvax,oliveb}!bunker!hcap!hnews!300!7!Darrell.Shandrow
Internet: Darrell.Shandrow@f7.n300.z1.fidonet.orgGreg.Mason@f11.n203.z1.fidonet.org (Greg Mason) (11/14/90)
Index Number: 11690
[This is from the Blink Talk Conference]
The new law in most parts is good. I agree with NFB's position
that forced accomedation can be harmful. I don't want to be forced
to accept accomedation unless I choose it. I say keep up the good
work NFB.
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Uucp: ..!{decvax,oliveb}!bunker!hcap!hnews!203!11!Greg.Mason
Internet: Greg.Mason@f11.n203.z1.fidonet.orgPaula.Mack@f210.n273.z1.fidonet.org (Paula Mack) (11/17/90)
Index Number: 11768
[This is from the Blink Talk Conference]
DA> Actually, Darryl was not corect. The NFB is not oposed the the
DA> ADA and did not come out against it. We did loobby for the
DA> inclusion of one amendment, which was successful. It says that
DA> the use of an accomodation which was available is up to the
DA> disabled individual, not to the provider of the accomodation.
David, I'm real glad that you mentioned this, and I'm glad that
ammendment was added. This is something that wooried me with the ADA
for a while, since, as you say, there are certain accommodations that
would not be necessary for a blind person, and it is always dangerous
when we are all lumped in together.
Paula
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Uucp: ..!{decvax,oliveb}!bunker!hcap!hnews!273!210!Paula.Mack
Internet: Paula.Mack@f210.n273.z1.fidonet.orgGary.Petraccaro@f90.n129.z1.fidonet.org (Gary Petraccaro) (11/17/90)
Index Number: 11770
[This is from the Blink Talk Conference]
-> In a message to Glen Nielson <11-04-90 20:12> Lee Kerr wrote:
->
-> LK> I THINK YOU AGREE . I HAVE EXPERIENCED THIS MYSELF IN
-> LK> DIFFERENT PARTS OF
-> LK> THE COUNTRY. ONE OF THE THINGS NEARLY GOT ME KILLED IN SAN
-> LK> FRANSISCO.
-> LK> THEY ARE A PAIN IN THE NECK.
Yep. That old light just reached out, took you by the collar and
bodily threw you directly in the path of a speeding taxicab. The vehicle
wasn't being driven by anyone either. Self powered. Those machines are
tryin' to git all of us. Give me a break. Unless you were deafened by
that light, you alone had the responsibility of deciding when to cross.
Don't know how typical the one we have is, but though it's loud, you can
still hear over it. Our worst problem here isn't that light, but the
damned trucks whose motors do drown out everything else.
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Uucp: ..!{decvax,oliveb}!bunker!hcap!hnews!129!90!Gary.Petraccaro
Internet: Gary.Petraccaro@f90.n129.z1.fidonet.orgGary.Petraccaro@f90.n129.z1.fidonet.org (Gary Petraccaro) (11/17/90)
Index Number: 11772
[This is from the Blink Talk Conference]
Okay, the alone in the phrase "you alone" wasn't called for, since
both walker and driver may have contributed to the near mishap.
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Uucp: ..!{decvax,oliveb}!bunker!hcap!hnews!129!90!Gary.Petraccaro
Internet: Gary.Petraccaro@f90.n129.z1.fidonet.orgDarrell.Shandrow@f7.n300.z1.fidonet.org (Darrell Shandrow) (11/17/90)
Index Number: 11806
[This is from the Blink Talk Conference]
I totally agree. The audible traffic light concept assumes that everyone
driving is doing it correctly at all times. The blind person needs to be
able to hear traffic in cases where drivers make mistakes and run lights
etc. The audible lights do hinder listening to traffic paterns.
--
Uucp: ..!{decvax,oliveb}!bunker!hcap!hnews!300!7!Darrell.Shandrow
Internet: Darrell.Shandrow@f7.n300.z1.fidonet.orgGary.Petraccaro@f90.n129.z1.fidonet.org (Gary Petraccaro) (11/20/90)
Index Number: 11869
[This is from the Blink Talk Conference]
Lee,
Now, just wait 'til those electric cars come in. We'll never hear
anything with or without those lights <grin>. Our light here emits a
repetative, loud high-pitched squawk every half-second or second. It
changes pitch for change in color. Around here, you always assume you're
going to be cut off like that. I'm not really exaggerating all that much
either. Honest, I have never seen anything like driving patterns out here.
I'm amazed that any pedestrians survive.
--
Uucp: ..!{decvax,oliveb}!bunker!hcap!hnews!129!90!Gary.Petraccaro
Internet: Gary.Petraccaro@f90.n129.z1.fidonet.org