Bill.Koppelmann@f114.n104.z1.fidonet.org (Bill Koppelmann) (10/10/90)
Index Number: 11015 [This is from the Blink Talk Conference] Terran, the National Federation of the blind happens to believ (and so do I) that when sighted people put on a blindfold for a short time, they don't really knoow what blindness is, only that they get to see the fear and helplessness of what being temporarily blind can be. I'd be interested in knowing what you, as a sighted student, might feel or think about this? bk. -- Uucp: ..!{decvax,oliveb}!bunker!hcap!hnews!104!114!Bill.Koppelmann Internet: Bill.Koppelmann@f114.n104.z1.fidonet.org
mcgrew@Eng.Sun.COM (Darin McGrew) (10/12/90)
Index Number: 11062 In article <14868@bunker.UUCP> Bill.Koppelmann@f114.n104.z1.fidonet.org writes: >Terran, the National Federation of the blind happens to believ (and so do I) >that when sighted people put on a blindfold for a short time, they don't >really knoow what blindness is, only that they get to see the fear and >helplessness of what being temporarily blind can be. I'd be interested in >knowing what you, as a sighted student, might feel or think about this? >bk. I'm sighted, and my wife (who is blind) took me on a blindfolded tour of the Stanford campus one afternoon before we were married. I agree that just putting on a blindfold doesn't help a sighted person learn what blindness is like. However, leaving the blindfold on long enough to learn how to do something does give a sighted person a better idea of what blindness is like. At the beginning of my blindfolded tour, I was pretty clueless. But towards the end of the tour, I could recognize buildings and such by sound, and felt fairly comfortable knowing where we were. Guide Dogs for the Blind sends its apprentice trainers through a couple weeks of a regular class blindfolded. After a couple weeks I'd imagine that one would have acquired many of the necessary living skills, as well as a pretty good understanding of the limitations and non-limitations of blindness. Darin McGrew mcgrew@Eng.Sun.COM Affiliation stated for identification purposes only.
campbell%hpdmd48@hplabs.HP.COM (Gary Campbell) (10/19/90)
Index Number: 11199 Darin McGrew (mcgrew@Eng.Sun.COM) writes: >Index Number: 11062 >married. I agree that just putting on a blindfold doesn't help a >sighted person learn what blindness is like. However, leaving >the blindfold on long enough to learn how to do something does >give a sighted person a better idea of what blindness is like. I think that learning to do something and therefore that it *is* possible to do something, is the only benefit a sighted person could gainby being blindfolded. I'm glad you began to recognize buildings ad where you were. As long as the person doesn't begin to feel like they have "arrived" there probably isn't any problem, but I would be concerned about someone beginning to think he/she can identify limitations. When I was in highschool, before I had any travel training involving traffic lights, a person who had lost his sight was visiting me. He had gone through a training program, and felt that he had adjusted and was now really functioning close to the maximum potential for a blind person. When I asked him about traffic lights, he said, "they taught that, but I think that's pretty dangerous," and communicated that it wasn't a realistic thing to do. He didn't convince me because I had heard of many people doing that, but it seemed to me that he had an effect on my mother. I was away from home when I learned my travel skills, and my parents didn't restrict me, but in the beginning, until I was already doing it, they wouldn't help me and didn't encourage me much. I think I remember some "even Bob doesn't" comments. I feel like Bob probably came a long way in histraining, and probably found that he could do far more than he ever dreamed a blind person could do, but somewhere his idea of the potential got set at a level that was short of what is possible for many people. If that happened to someone who had been through a rehab program and was living as a blind person every day, what could be the result of someone who does it for only a short time? If the blindfold experience demystifies how we function and shows the person that he/she could do it with practice, then it could be good, as long as the person still looks to blind people who have much experience with functioning without sight to determine what can be done, is easy, etc. That took longer than I thought it was going to! I hope it makes sense! -- Gary Campbell
mcgrew@Eng.Sun.COM (Darin McGrew) (10/20/90)
Index Number: 11206 I write: >> I agree that just putting on a blindfold doesn't help a >>sighted person learn what blindness is like. However, leaving >>the blindfold on long enough to learn how to do something does >>give a sighted person a better idea of what blindness is like. campbell%hpdmd48@hplabs.HP.COM (Gary Campbell) writes: > As long as the person doesn't begin to feel like they >have "arrived" there probably isn't any problem, but I would be >concerned about someone beginning to think he/she can identify >limitations.... Agreed. My experience with my blindfolded tour showed me that in half a day I could develop skills that I didn't understand at all beforehand, and that showed me that there are other ways for blind people to do things that I use my sight for. I would assume that the longer one was blind, the more skills one would learn that are appropriate for living without sight, and the more one would be able to do that a less-experienced blind person would still be unable to do. But that's the way life is--the longer you practice something, the better you get. Darin McGrew mcgrew@Eng.Sun.COM Affiliation stated for identification purposes only.
Walter.Siren@p18.f5.n396.z1.fidonet.org (Walter Siren) (10/26/90)
Index Number: 11294 [This is from the Blink Talk Conference] PM> Hi Bill, although there are a few things I don't agree with NFB PM> about, this is one point on which we agree wholeheartedly. A PM> sighted person wearing a blindfold in order to simulate PM> blindness only re-enforces their fears and all the stereotypes PM> that we all have to live with. WW> Paula, WW> I couldn't have said it better myself! WW> Of course, I would be pretty surprised to hear anyone in WW> this echo WW> disagree with this position, so it ain't much of a surprise that WW> it WW> would be one thing I agree with the NFB on! <smile> Surprise! I have to disagree with you Willie. The key word in that statement is only. You don't think that they also would learn something by blindfolding themselves. They learn how hard somethings are for us to do without sight, and appreciate what we go through to accomplish them. Do you think that seeing eyes trainers should not put on blindfolds like they do to test out their fully trained dogs before turning them over to their users. Walter -- Uucp: ..!{decvax,oliveb}!bunker!hcap!hnews!396!5.18!Walter.Siren Internet: Walter.Siren@p18.f5.n396.z1.fidonet.org
William.Wilson@f89.n129.z1.fidonet.org (William Wilson) (10/26/90)
Index Number: 11299 [This is from the Blink Talk Conference] WS> Surprise! I have to disagree with you Willie. The key WS> word in that statement is only. You don't think that they WS> also would learn something by blindfolding themselves. They WS> learn how hard somethings are for us to do without sight, and WS> appreciate what we go through to accomplish them. Walter, You are, of course, right. Somehow or another I missed the word "only" when I left my reply, and even though I noticed it later when I reread my message, I didn't think it worth killing. Nevertheless, I do think we have a double edged sword with this one. Although the temporary blindfolding of a person may teach them a few things about us, I think it would likewise mislead them in many ways and in many circumstances. Ok, ok, so I'm a little ambivolent on this one! Willie ... BlinkTalk, Dr. Deb and Silver in Pittsburgh! -- Uucp: ..!{decvax,oliveb}!bunker!hcap!hnews!129!89!William.Wilson Internet: William.Wilson@f89.n129.z1.fidonet.org
Walter.Siren@p18.f5.n396.z1.fidonet.org (Walter Siren) (10/26/90)
Index Number: 11318 [This is from the Blink Talk Conference] WW> reread my message, I didn't think it worth killing. No leave the message alive, and we will kill you. <grin> WW> Nevertheless, I do think we have a double edged sword with WW> this one. WW> Although the temporary blindfolding of a person may teach them a WW> few WW> things about us, I think it would likewise mislead them in many WW> ways and WW> in many circumstances. WW> Ok, ok, so I'm a little ambivolent on this one! Well, I think that you don't blindfold someONE unless you are trying to prove a point. Naturally they won't appreciate all our problems, because they know that they can remove it anytime, and resume living again as a sighted person. I think that the one time that it would come in handy, is when a sighted person is trying to teach blind people some things that they cannot appreciate our problem with accomplishing that particular situation. This case in point. When my wife was teaching at a local project indipendence which was primarily teaching newly blinded people how to function in the blind world, the sighted teachers there wanted to tell the blind people that they could go to a bouffet, and serve themselves. Now, that bouffet first was in a public place, and it would not be familiar to them. Now, at home we can serve ourselves, and we know where everything is, but in a public place, you can't go around putting your hands in the food to find out what it is, etc. She recommended to them that they should try putting on a blindfold to see how they could accomplish such before trying to tell these people that they could do that. That would be to teach them just how impractical such a thing was. btw, there reply was, that they would not do that. Walter -- Uucp: ..!{decvax,oliveb}!bunker!hcap!hnews!396!5.18!Walter.Siren Internet: Walter.Siren@p18.f5.n396.z1.fidonet.org
Paula.Mack@f6.n377.z1.fidonet.org (Paula Mack) (10/31/90)
Index Number: 11380 [This is from the Blink Talk Conference] HK> In a message to Bill K you said, "A sighted person wearing a HK> blindfold in order to simulate blindness only re-enforces their HK> fears and all the stereotypes that we all have to live with." HK> sounds good, but have you tested your theory? If you have, I HK> reckon people here in Texas must act differently. A couple of HK> weeks ago the Corps of Engineers sponsored Barrier Town. Hi Henry, Henry, I guess I didn't explain myself very well in that message, because obviously, you think that I was sying that things like Barrier town are not good. However, let me explain. I make a distinction between experiments similar to what you guys did with Barrier town and theusual "where a blindfold for fifteen minutes" routine. You see, the way you explain Barrier town, it sounds like the people did a lot more than just stand around with blindfolds on and grope about. You actually simulated the problems that those of us with disabilities face everyday and the participants got to have a "taste" of those problems. However, many of the exhibits I've seen just sort of provide blindfolds, wheelchairs, etc. and let the participants try them on for size. I don't feel that this kind of thing gives the participant any insight into the disability, but rather re-enforces my fears. Sorry I was unclear before. Paula ... Press F1 to Reboot -- Uucp: ..!{decvax,oliveb}!bunker!hcap!hnews!377!6!Paula.Mack Internet: Paula.Mack@f6.n377.z1.fidonet.org
David.Andrews@f89.n129.z1.fidonet.org (David Andrews) (10/31/90)
Index Number: 11406 [This is from the Blink Talk Conference] BK> Paula, I'm glad to see that you understand my point about BK> blindfolds. While I couldn't understand it at first, I'm glad BK> that many parapetologists, or whatever you call them these days BK> are made to wear a blindfold for about a week so that they can BK> become quite familiar with what they will be dealing with. A week isn't long enough. At the New Mexico Commission for the Blind, all new staff members go to our Audlt Orientation center for six weeks, and take training using a blind fold. We have found that this is about the minimum time necessary to overcome your fear and develop enough skill so that you know that you could do well as a blind person. You won't have great skills in six weeks, but you will learn enough to see that you could do so. Experience in Nebraska, which does the same thing, has shown that three months is actually the best time frame for such training. David Andrews ... Your Sound Alternative -- Uucp: ..!{decvax,oliveb}!bunker!hcap!hnews!129!89!David.Andrews Internet: David.Andrews@f89.n129.z1.fidonet.org
David.Andrews@f89.n129.z1.fidonet.org (David Andrews) (10/31/90)
Index Number: 11407 [This is from the Blink Talk Conference] HK> In a message to Bill K you said, "A sighted person wearing a HK> blindfold in order to simulate blindness only re-enforces their HK> fears and all the stereotypes that we all have to live with." HK> sounds good, but have you tested your theory? If you have, I HK> reckon people here in Texas must act differently. A couple of HK> weeks ago the Corps of Engineers sponsored Barrier Town. In the HK> lobby of the Fort Worth Federal building, a small town made up HK> of a Post office, Market, Boutique and Restaurant was set up. HK> Participants were told to travel through the town either wearing HK> sun glasses smeared with petroleum jelly or use a wheel chair. Sun glasses smeared with petrolium jelly is not the same thing as a blindfold. While they would deminish vision, they would not block it out completely. What we all are talking about here is the total absence of sight. The other approach could have merit except that it would perpetuate the notion that those who have some sight are luckier then us poor guys with nothing. This is a notion that is institutionalized in our blindness system. David Andrews ... Your Sound Alternative -- Uucp: ..!{decvax,oliveb}!bunker!hcap!hnews!129!89!David.Andrews Internet: David.Andrews@f89.n129.z1.fidonet.org
David.Andrews@f89.n129.z1.fidonet.org (David Andrews) (10/31/90)
Index Number: 11408 [This is from the Blink Talk Conference] PM>> Hi Bill, although there are a few things I don't agree with NFB PM>> about, this is one point on which we agree wholeheartedly. A PM>> sighted person wearing a blindfold in order to simulate PM>> blindness only re-enforces their fears and all the stereotypes PM>> that we all have to live with. WW>> Paula, WW>> I couldn't have said it better myself! WW>> Of course, I would be pretty surprised to hear anyone in WW>> this echo WW>> disagree with this position, so it ain't much of a surprise that WW>> it WW>> would be one thing I agree with the NFB on! <smile> Willie, I knew someone would disagree. I have seen two, and I am not through the packet yet. WS> Surprise! I have to disagree with you Willie. The key WS> word in that statement is only. You don't think that they WS> also would learn something by blindfolding themselves. They WS> learn how hard somethings are for us to do without sight, and WS> appreciate what we go through to accomplish them. Do you WS> think that seeing eyes trainers should not put on blindfolds WS> like they do to test out their fully trained dogs before WS> turning them over to their users. Walter, the trainer using a blind fold is not the same thing as someone with little or no contact with a blind person wearing one for a half hour. The trainer would presumably have done it before, sees blind people all the time, and knows how a blind person would travel effectively with a dog guide. David Andrews ... Your Sound Alternative -- Uucp: ..!{decvax,oliveb}!bunker!hcap!hnews!129!89!David.Andrews Internet: David.Andrews@f89.n129.z1.fidonet.org
Steve.Petrica@hnews.fidonet.org (Steve Petrica) (10/31/90)
Index Number: 11424 [This is from the Blink Talk Conference] Actually, this is to David, Paula, et al, who are part of this thread. As a sighted person, I have felt a little like a do on the street when a blind person passes, that is to say, curious about what your experi- ence is like. Obviously, wearing a blindfold for awhile won't tell me much about that; only a blind person can do that. And I don't know any blind people, other than you all. So maybe rather than arguing about the value of "blindfold" experiments, you could tell this sighted per- son something concrete about what day-to-day life is like for you -- you know, family, work, social life, meeting people, and so on. Look- ing forward to hearing from you. Steve -- Uucp: ..!{decvax,oliveb}!bunker!hcap!hnews!Steve.Petrica Internet: Steve.Petrica@hnews.fidonet.org
Henry.Kasten@p0.f33.n130.z1.fidonet.org (Henry Kasten) (11/02/90)
Index Number: 11462 [This is from the Blink Talk Conference] You were correct. I did not understand how you ment for the blind fold was used. I have never seen an exhibit where you just put on a blind fold or sat in a wheel chairjust to see what it was like. I agree with you, doing that wouldn't do much for either the disabled or the typical person. Our exhibit tried not only to show the monumental problems faced by physical barriers, but tried to show the barriers created by uninformed attitudes. To a degree, our program did some good, however nothing is quite like the real thing. -- Uucp: ..!{decvax,oliveb}!bunker!hcap!hnews!130!33.0!Henry.Kasten Internet: Henry.Kasten@p0.f33.n130.z1.fidonet.org
David.Andrews@f89.n129.z1.fidonet.org (David Andrews) (11/06/90)
Index Number: 11589 [This is from the Blink Talk Conference] SP> Actually, this is to David, Paula, et al, who are part of this SP> thread. As a sighted person, I have felt a little like a do on SP> the street when a blind person passes, that is to say, curious SP> about what your experi- ence is like. Obviously, wearing a SP> blindfold for awhile won't tell me much about that; only a SP> blind person can do that. And I don't know any blind people, SP> other than you all. So maybe rather than arguing about the SP> value of "blindfold" experiments, you could tell this sighted SP> per- son something concrete about what day-to-day life is like SP> for you -- you know, family, work, social life, meeting people, SP> and so on. Look- ing forward to hearing from you. Steve My day to day life is shaped more by the things I do then by my blindness. I try to be a person first, and a bling person second. I get up, go to work, come home, use my computer, play with my cat, cook, listen to music, read etc. I am not trying to be cute or avoid answering, I am not quite sure what to say. I am reluctant to focus on my blindness as the central point of my life. Yes there are little frustrations, and I use a reader, and driver/errand helper, but blindness is only one part of my life, and not the largest part though. As you read BlinkTalk over a period of time, you will get a feel for our experiences and see that we are all different, we disagree and/or agree, some of us are nice guys, like me, and some of us are jerks. All in all we are about like everybody else. To prove that, someone will disagree with this message, so here we go. David Andrews ... Your Sound Alternative -- Uucp: ..!{decvax,oliveb}!bunker!hcap!hnews!129!89!David.Andrews Internet: David.Andrews@f89.n129.z1.fidonet.org
David.Andrews@f89.n129.z1.fidonet.org (David Andrews) (11/06/90)
Index Number: 11590 [This is from the Blink Talk Conference] DA>> Sun glasses smeared with petrolium jelly is not the same thing as a DA>> blindfold. DA>> While they would deminish vision, they would not block it out completely. DA>> What we all are talking about here is the total absence of sight. DA>> The other approach could have merit except that it would perpetuate the DA>> notion that those who have some sight are luckier then us poor DA>> guys with nothing WS> Well, aren't they? Walter, I had some vision until about two years ago, and lost it then. I must say that my life has not changed since then. I may get a little more help in the grocery store, although I can still find most things, and I have abandoned my print playboy collection, but the quality of my life is no different. Yes, there are a couple things I would like to see, like the ballon fiesta here in Albuquerque, but they do not change my life, the presence or absence. I certainly do not wish people to be totally blind, but it isn't the end of the world. Schools for the blind especially set up a cast system which makes the partially sighted more priveleged then the totally blind, giving them the idea they are better. It creates an us and them attitude. When I was in blind school, in Virginia, totals could not go downtown by themselves, but partials could. Some parftially sighted people try to use their sight for things for which it is not appropriate, so there are probably instances where a blind person would be better off. I have also known partials that lord their sight over me, telling me where to go etc. It allows them to feel superior. I think it is very dangerous and counterproductive for us to set up these class distinctions. David Andrews ... Your Sound Alternative -- Uucp: ..!{decvax,oliveb}!bunker!hcap!hnews!129!89!David.Andrews Internet: David.Andrews@f89.n129.z1.fidonet.org
Walter.Siren@p18.f5.n396.z1.fidonet.org (Walter Siren) (11/14/90)
Index Number: 11681 [This is from the Blink Talk Conference] DA>> The other approach could have merit except that it would DA> perpetuate the DA>> notion DA>> that those who have some sight are luckier then us poor DA> guys with nothing Well, the plain fact is that are. Those with sight can get in their car and go at a moment's notice. Sure I can get a cab, not to mention the expense, but the inconvenience of trying to get somewhere at a certain time. The same way when going out of town on a trip, it is a lot more convenient to go right out the door, and get into a car, and get out at your destination. Much better then having to get a cab, catch a bus, and a cab on the other end. It is a lot easier to shop when you have sight, and a lot easier to travel in strange places. To say that it is just as easy for me as it is for them is hog wash. Btw they can get a job easier than we can. That little fact is worth something. DA> Walter, I had some vision until about two years ago, and lost it DA> then. I must say that my life has not changed since then. I may DA> get a little more help in the grocery store, There is a change right there you admit to. DA> the quality of my life is no different. Yes, DA> there are a couple things I would like to see, like the ballon DA> fiesta here in Albuquerque, but they do not change my life, the DA> presence or absence. I certainly do not wish people to be DA> totally blind, but it isn't the end of the world. I never said that it is the end of the world. But, to say that it does not make a difference, is just fooling yourself, and no one else. DA> the blind especially set up a cast system which makes the DA> partially sighted more priveleged then the totally blind, giving DA> them the idea they are better. It creates an us and them DA> attitude. When I was in blind school, in Virginia, totals could DA> not go downtown by themselves, but partials could. Some DA> parftially sighted people try to use their sight for things for DA> which it is not appropriate, so there are probably instances DA> where a blind person would be better off. I have also known DA> partials that lord their sight over me, telling me where to go Well, this is one place that Louisiana is ahead of other places for a change. AT the school for the blind, we totals could go out in town by ourselves like the partials. I aggree, unfortunately that a lot of the partials think that they are better than us totals, but all of them do not think that way. Why do you think that people wanted to be visually impaired, they don't want to be blind, except when it comes time to get their income tax filled out. But, I will still have to admit that they are somewhat better off than us, but that don't mean that they are any better. Being better, and better off is two different things. I certainly don't think a blind person should go around feeling sorry for himself, but he has to face facts, that we can't do every thing that a person with sight can do. I think that the best way I heard it put one time, I am not so bad off, but it is a little inconvenient at times. DA> etc. It allows them to feel superior. I think it is very DA> dangerous and counterproductive for us to set up these class DA> distinctions. Unfortunately class distinctions probably will always be around, and that doesn't only occur with blind and sighted people. You and I both know that there many other facts that play apart in class distinction, and that doesn't make it right. I think that a person who thinks that he is better off than someone else is worse off in the long run. What we or anyone else thinks doesn't make it so. Walter -- Uucp: ..!{decvax,oliveb}!bunker!hcap!hnews!396!5.18!Walter.Siren Internet: Walter.Siren@p18.f5.n396.z1.fidonet.org
Greg.Mason@f11.n203.z1.fidonet.org (Greg Mason) (11/14/90)
Index Number: 11689 [This is from the Blink Talk Conference] Hello everyone, Blindness and the blindfold is a very interesting topic for discussion. First of all, most people that are considered blind have some vission. Only about three per cent of the blind are totally blind. I have a little vission and I think every little bit helps. I don't think that people with some vission function beter than those with no vission. I know a lot of totally blind people that function beter that partcially sighted people. I think it is a matter of experiences and training. I know a lot of blind people that have been sheltered all their lives and they seem to be very limited socially as well as independence in daily living. I think that blindness is only an inconvenience. It makes life a little more dificult but we can do almost anything we wany especially now days with the technology and availability of technology in the work place. I am a normal person with interest and desires like others. My blindness does not keep me from enjoying a normal life. -- Uucp: ..!{decvax,oliveb}!bunker!hcap!hnews!203!11!Greg.Mason Internet: Greg.Mason@f11.n203.z1.fidonet.org
Gary.Petraccaro@f90.n129.z1.fidonet.org (Gary Petraccaro) (11/14/90)
Index Number: 11698 [This is from the Blink Talk Conference] David, The people set up those caste systems themselves as far as I can tell. It seems to me that Walter's right. I sure as hell would like to read any book I want, and though I'm not even slightly depressed with my lot, there are still things on my "want" list (as opposed to "need" list (grin)). -- Uucp: ..!{decvax,oliveb}!bunker!hcap!hnews!129!90!Gary.Petraccaro Internet: Gary.Petraccaro@f90.n129.z1.fidonet.org
Henry.Kasten@p0.f33.n130.z1.fidonet.org (Henry Kasten) (11/21/90)
Index Number: 11923 [This is from the Blink Talk Conference] Hi Gang, The following is an excerpt from the Corps of Engineers monthly publication. It addresses Barrier Town. I think we all agree that a simulation is not the same as the real McCoy, but I feel after you read this you may find that more sensitivity can be established from such a program. Barrier Town...Learning more about the obstacles the physically impaired face By Tyler Sarlow, IMO My friend and I love to go driving. We often take weekend trips to out-of-the-way places just to see what we find. One thing you need to know is that I am confined to a wheelchair and my friend is blind. Driving allows me the freedom to swiftly glide down an interstate without the barriers I face in my chair. For my friend I am able to describe the scenery as we go along and she takes in the smells of the countryside. Yeah, life is grand on these trips. One weekend we happened upon a small community, called Barrier Town. Little did we know that the town would live up to its name. We got out to look around with my friend holding on to the back of my wheelchair--this works out really well for both of us because I'm the only one in her way. Our first stop was the Post Office since my friend needed to mail a letter. The postal worker was no help at all--he held an envelope right in front of my friend's face without saying a word and knowing all along she was blind. She was embarrassed when I had to tell her to take the envelope and I was upset because the counter was too high for me to help her. After that rude experience, we decided to get something to eat. But this, too, would become an unappetizing event. We could almost taste the meatloaf and were looking forward to a real "country" meal. We asked to be seated next to the window, but were made to sit back by the kitchen to get us out of the way. I suspected that they had few handicapped people in their restaurant because the waitress seemed uneasy around us and spoke so loud as if we were deaf, too. We decided to leave the restaurant and eat at the fast food place next door and as we left, she said, "People in wheelchairs aren't usually that rude." I wonder what she meant by that. Well, on our way out-of-town we stopped at a convenience store. Someone had spray- painted "in" before the "convenience" sign on the front door. We should have taken that warning to heart because the man behind the counter tried to short-change us and, had I not been there, my friend would have been stuck with chocolate milk when she specifically asked for skim milk. The only good part about this trip was visiting the park in front of the town's city hall. We watched the squirrels and listened to the birds while we rested before our journey home. As we left, we stopped at the water fountain and it was actually low enough for a person in a wheelchair to lean over and drink from. I wondered who was responsible for helping the disabled, but it didn't matter. I only knew that I truly appreciated it. The story above is fictitious, but the examples are real. Even today in an age when laws have been passed to accommodate the handicapped, few abide by them. -- Uucp: ..!{decvax,oliveb}!bunker!hcap!hnews!130!33.0!Henry.Kasten Internet: Henry.Kasten@p0.f33.n130.z1.fidonet.org