[misc.handicap] blindness and the blindfold

Bill.Koppelmann@f114.n104.z1.fidonet.org (Bill Koppelmann) (10/10/90)

Index Number: 11015

[This is from the Blink Talk Conference]

Terran, the National Federation of the blind happens to believ (and so do I) 
that when sighted people put on a blindfold for a short time, they don't 
really knoow what blindness is, only that they get to see the fear and 
helplessness of what being temporarily blind can be.  I'd be interested in 
knowing what you, as a sighted student, might feel or think about this?
bk.

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mcgrew@Eng.Sun.COM (Darin McGrew) (10/12/90)

Index Number: 11062

In article <14868@bunker.UUCP> Bill.Koppelmann@f114.n104.z1.fidonet.org writes:
>Terran, the National Federation of the blind happens to believ (and so do I) 
>that when sighted people put on a blindfold for a short time, they don't 
>really knoow what blindness is, only that they get to see the fear and 
>helplessness of what being temporarily blind can be.  I'd be interested in 
>knowing what you, as a sighted student, might feel or think about this?
>bk.

I'm sighted, and my wife (who is blind) took me on a blindfolded
tour of the Stanford campus one afternoon before we were
married.  I agree that just putting on a blindfold doesn't help a
sighted person learn what blindness is like.  However, leaving
the blindfold on long enough to learn how to do something does
give a sighted person a better idea of what blindness is like.
At the beginning of my blindfolded tour, I was pretty clueless.
But towards the end of the tour, I could recognize buildings and
such by sound, and felt fairly comfortable knowing where we were.

Guide Dogs for the Blind sends its apprentice trainers through a
couple weeks of a regular class blindfolded.  After a couple
weeks I'd imagine that one would have acquired many of the
necessary living skills, as well as a pretty good understanding
of the limitations and non-limitations of blindness.

Darin McGrew			mcgrew@Eng.Sun.COM
Affiliation stated for identification purposes only.

campbell%hpdmd48@hplabs.HP.COM (Gary Campbell) (10/19/90)

Index Number: 11199

Darin McGrew (mcgrew@Eng.Sun.COM) writes:

>Index Number: 11062
>married.  I agree that just putting on a blindfold doesn't help a
>sighted person learn what blindness is like.  However, leaving
>the blindfold on long enough to learn how to do something does
>give a sighted person a better idea of what blindness is like.

I think that learning to do something and therefore that it *is*
possible to do something, is the only benefit a sighted person could
gainby being blindfolded.  I'm glad you began to recognize buildings ad
where you were.  As long as the person doesn't begin to feel like they
have "arrived" there probably isn't any problem, but I would be
concerned about someone beginning to think he/she can identify
limitations.  When I was in highschool, before I had any travel training
involving traffic lights, a person who had lost his sight was visiting
me.  He had gone through a training program, and felt that he had
adjusted and was now really functioning close to the maximum potential
for a blind person.  When I asked him about traffic lights, he said,
"they taught that, but I think that's pretty dangerous," and
communicated that it wasn't a realistic thing to do.  He didn't convince
me because I had heard of many people doing that, but it seemed to me
that he had an effect on my mother.  I was away from home when I learned
my travel skills, and my parents didn't restrict me, but in the
beginning, until I was already doing it, they wouldn't help me and
didn't encourage me much.  I think I remember some "even Bob doesn't"
comments.  I feel like Bob probably came a long way in histraining, and
probably found that he could do far more than he ever dreamed a blind
person could do, but somewhere his idea of the potential got set at a
level that was short of what is possible for many people.  If that
happened to someone who had been through a rehab program and was living
as a blind person every day, what could be the result of someone who
does it for only a short time?  If the blindfold experience demystifies
how we function and shows the person that he/she could do it with
practice, then it could be good, as long as the person still looks to
blind people who have much experience with functioning without sight to
determine what can be done, is easy, etc.

That took longer than I thought it was going to!  I hope it makes sense!

--
Gary Campbell

mcgrew@Eng.Sun.COM (Darin McGrew) (10/20/90)

Index Number: 11206

I write:
>>          I agree that just putting on a blindfold doesn't help a
>>sighted person learn what blindness is like.  However, leaving
>>the blindfold on long enough to learn how to do something does
>>give a sighted person a better idea of what blindness is like.

campbell%hpdmd48@hplabs.HP.COM (Gary Campbell) writes:
>                 As long as the person doesn't begin to feel like they
>have "arrived" there probably isn't any problem, but I would be
>concerned about someone beginning to think he/she can identify
>limitations....

Agreed.  My experience with my blindfolded tour showed me that in
half a day I could develop skills that I didn't understand at all
beforehand, and that showed me that there are other ways for
blind people to do things that I use my sight for.  I would
assume that the longer one was blind, the more skills one would
learn that are appropriate for living without sight, and the more
one would be able to do that a less-experienced blind person
would still be unable to do.  But that's the way life is--the
longer you practice something, the better you get.

Darin McGrew			mcgrew@Eng.Sun.COM
Affiliation stated for identification purposes only.

Walter.Siren@p18.f5.n396.z1.fidonet.org (Walter Siren) (10/26/90)

Index Number: 11294

[This is from the Blink Talk Conference]

 PM> Hi Bill, although there are a few things I don't agree with NFB 
 PM> about, this is one point on which we agree wholeheartedly.  A 
 PM> sighted person wearing a blindfold in order to simulate 
 PM> blindness only re-enforces their fears and all the stereotypes 
 PM> that we all have to live with. 

 WW> Paula,
 WW>      I couldn't have said it better myself!
 WW>      Of course, I would be pretty surprised to hear anyone in 
 WW> this echo
 WW> disagree with this position, so it ain't much of a surprise that 
 WW> it
 WW> would be one thing I agree with the NFB on! <smile>

Surprise!  I have to disagree with you Willie.  The key word in
that statement is only.  You don't think that they also would learn
something by blindfolding themselves.  They learn how hard
somethings are for us to do without sight, and appreciate what we
go through to accomplish them.  Do you think that seeing eyes
trainers should not put on blindfolds like they do to test out
their fully trained dogs before turning them over to their users.

               Walter 

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William.Wilson@f89.n129.z1.fidonet.org (William Wilson) (10/26/90)

Index Number: 11299

[This is from the Blink Talk Conference]

 WS>      Surprise!  I have to disagree with you Willie.  The key 
 WS>      word in that statement is only.  You don't think that they 
 WS>  also would learn something by blindfolding themselves.  They 
 WS>  learn how hard somethings are for us to do without sight, and 
 WS>  appreciate what we go through to accomplish them.

Walter,
    You are, of course, right.  Somehow or another I missed the word
"only" when I left my reply, and even though I noticed it later when I
reread my message, I didn't think it worth killing.
    Nevertheless, I do think we have a double edged sword with this one.
Although the temporary blindfolding of a person may teach them a few
things about us, I think it would likewise mislead them in many ways and
in many circumstances.

     Ok, ok, so I'm a little ambivolent on this one!
                                        Willie
     

... BlinkTalk, Dr. Deb and Silver in Pittsburgh!

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Walter.Siren@p18.f5.n396.z1.fidonet.org (Walter Siren) (10/26/90)

Index Number: 11318

[This is from the Blink Talk Conference]

 WW> reread my message, I didn't think it worth killing.

     No leave the message alive, and we will kill you.  <grin>

 WW>     Nevertheless, I do think we have a double edged sword with 
 WW> this one.
 WW> Although the temporary blindfolding of a person may teach them a 
 WW> few
 WW> things about us, I think it would likewise mislead them in many 
 WW> ways and
 WW> in many circumstances.

 WW>      Ok, ok, so I'm a little ambivolent on this one!

Well, I think that you don't blindfold someONE unless you are
trying to prove a point.  Naturally they won't appreciate all our
problems, because they know that they can remove it anytime, and
resume living again as a sighted person.  I think that the one time
that it would come in handy, is when a sighted person is trying to
teach blind people some things that they cannot appreciate our
problem with accomplishing that particular situation.

This case in point.  When my wife was teaching at a local project
indipendence which was primarily teaching newly blinded people how
to function in the blind world, the sighted teachers there wanted
to tell the blind people that they could go to a bouffet, and serve
themselves.  Now, that bouffet first was in a public place, and it
would  not be familiar to them.  Now, at home we can serve
ourselves, and we know where everything is, but in a public place,
you can't go around putting your hands in the food to find out what
it is, etc.  She recommended to them that they should try putting
on a blindfold to  see how they could accomplish such before trying
to tell these people that they could do that.  That would be to
teach them just how impractical such a thing was.  btw, there reply
was, that they would not do that.

               Walter                

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Paula.Mack@f6.n377.z1.fidonet.org (Paula Mack) (10/31/90)

Index Number: 11380

[This is from the Blink Talk Conference]

 HK> In a message to Bill K you said, "A sighted person wearing a
 HK> blindfold in order to simulate blindness only re-enforces their
 HK> fears and all the stereotypes that we all have to live with."  
 HK> sounds good, but have you tested your theory?  If you have, I
 HK> reckon people here in Texas must act differently.  A couple of
 HK> weeks ago the Corps of Engineers sponsored Barrier Town.

Hi Henry,

Henry, I guess I didn't explain myself very well in that message,
because obviously, you think that I was sying that things like Barrier
town are not good.  However, let me explain.

I make a distinction between experiments similar to what you guys did
with Barrier town and theusual "where a blindfold for fifteen minutes"
routine.  You see, the way you explain Barrier town, it sounds like the
people did a lot more than just stand around with blindfolds on and
grope about.  You actually simulated the problems that those of us with
disabilities face everyday and the participants got to have a "taste" of
those problems.

However, many of the exhibits I've seen just sort of provide blindfolds,
wheelchairs, etc. and let the participants try them on for size.  I
don't feel that this kind of thing gives the participant any insight
into the disability, but rather re-enforces my fears.

Sorry I was unclear before.

Paula

... Press F1 to Reboot

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David.Andrews@f89.n129.z1.fidonet.org (David Andrews) (10/31/90)

Index Number: 11406

[This is from the Blink Talk Conference]

 BK> Paula, I'm glad to see that you understand my point about  
 BK> blindfolds. While I couldn't understand it at first, I'm glad  
 BK> that many parapetologists, or whatever you call them these days  
 BK> are made to wear a blindfold for about a week so that they can  
 BK> become quite familiar with what they will be dealing with.  
  

A week isn't long enough.  At the New Mexico Commission for the Blind, all new
staff members go to our Audlt Orientation center for six weeks, and take
training using a blind fold.  We have found that this is about the minimum time
necessary to overcome your fear and develop enough skill so that you know that
you could do well as a blind person.  You won't have great skills in six weeks,
but you will learn enough to see that you could do so.  Experience in Nebraska,
which does the same thing, has shown that three months is actually the best time
frame for such training.
David Andrews

... Your Sound Alternative

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David.Andrews@f89.n129.z1.fidonet.org (David Andrews) (10/31/90)

Index Number: 11407

[This is from the Blink Talk Conference]

 HK> In a message to Bill K you said, "A sighted person wearing a 
 HK> blindfold in order to simulate blindness only re-enforces their 
 HK> fears and all the stereotypes that we all have to live with."   
 HK> sounds good, but have you tested your theory?  If you have, I 
 HK> reckon people here in Texas must act differently.  A couple of 
 HK> weeks ago the Corps of Engineers sponsored Barrier Town.  In the 
 HK> lobby of the Fort Worth Federal building, a small town made up  
 HK> of a Post office, Market, Boutique and Restaurant was set up.  
 HK> Participants were told to travel through the town either wearing 
 HK> sun glasses smeared with petroleum jelly or use a wheel chair.  
  

Sun glasses smeared with petrolium jelly is not the same thing as a
blindfold.  While they would deminish vision, they would not block
it out completely.  What we all are talking about here is the total
absence of sight.  The other approach could have merit except that
it would perpetuate the notion that those who have some sight are
luckier then us poor guys with nothing.  This is a notion that is
institutionalized in our blindness system.

David Andrews

... Your Sound Alternative

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David.Andrews@f89.n129.z1.fidonet.org (David Andrews) (10/31/90)

Index Number: 11408

[This is from the Blink Talk Conference]

 PM>> Hi Bill, although there are a few things I don't agree with NFB  
 PM>> about, this is one point on which we agree wholeheartedly.  A  
 PM>> sighted person wearing a blindfold in order to simulate  
 PM>> blindness only re-enforces their fears and all the stereotypes  
 PM>> that we all have to live with.  
      
 WW>> Paula, 
 WW>>      I couldn't have said it better myself! 
 WW>>      Of course, I would be pretty surprised to hear anyone in  
 WW>> this echo 
 WW>> disagree with this position, so it ain't much of a surprise that  
 WW>> it 
 WW>> would be one thing I agree with the NFB on! <smile> 
 
Willie,  I knew someone would disagree.  I have seen two, and I am not through
the packet yet.
       
 WS>      Surprise!  I have to disagree with you Willie.  The key  
 WS>      word in that statement is only.  You don't think that they  
 WS>  also would learn something by blindfolding themselves.  They  
 WS>  learn how hard somethings are for us to do without sight, and  
 WS>  appreciate what we go through to accomplish them.  Do you  
 WS>  think that seeing eyes trainers should not put on blindfolds  
 WS>  like they do to test out their fully trained dogs before  
 WS>  turning them over to their users. 
  
Walter, the trainer using a blind fold is not the same thing as someone with
little or no contact with a blind person wearing one for a half hour.  The
trainer would presumably have done it before, sees blind people all the time,
and knows how a blind person would travel effectively with a dog guide.
David Andrews

... Your Sound Alternative

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Steve.Petrica@hnews.fidonet.org (Steve Petrica) (10/31/90)

Index Number: 11424

[This is from the Blink Talk Conference]

Actually, this is to David, Paula, et al, who are part of this thread.
As a sighted person, I have felt a little like a do on the street when
a blind person passes, that is to say, curious about what your experi-
ence is like. Obviously, wearing a blindfold for awhile won't tell me
much about that; only a blind person can do that. And I don't know any
blind people, other than you all. So maybe rather than arguing about
the value of "blindfold" experiments, you could tell this sighted per-
son something concrete about what day-to-day life is like for you --
you know, family, work, social life, meeting people, and so on. Look-
ing forward to hearing from you. Steve

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Henry.Kasten@p0.f33.n130.z1.fidonet.org (Henry Kasten) (11/02/90)

Index Number: 11462

[This is from the Blink Talk Conference]

You were correct.  I did not understand how you ment for the
blind fold was used.  I have never seen an exhibit where you
just put on a blind fold or sat in a wheel chairjust to see what
it was like.  I agree with you, doing that wouldn't do much for
either the disabled or the typical person.  Our exhibit tried
not only to show the monumental problems faced by physical
barriers, but tried to show the barriers created by uninformed
attitudes.  To a degree, our program did some good, however
nothing is quite like the real thing.

 

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David.Andrews@f89.n129.z1.fidonet.org (David Andrews) (11/06/90)

Index Number: 11589

[This is from the Blink Talk Conference]

 SP> Actually, this is to David, Paula, et al, who are part of this  
 SP> thread. As a sighted person, I have felt a little like a do on  
 SP> the street when a blind person passes, that is to say, curious  
 SP> about what your experi- ence is like. Obviously, wearing a  
 SP> blindfold for awhile won't tell me much about that; only a  
 SP> blind person can do that. And I don't know any blind people,  
 SP> other than you all. So maybe rather than arguing about the  
 SP> value of "blindfold" experiments, you could tell this sighted  
 SP> per- son something concrete about what day-to-day life is like  
 SP> for you -- you know, family, work, social life, meeting people,  
 SP> and so on. Look- ing forward to hearing from you. Steve  
 

My day to day life is shaped more by the things I do then by my
blindness.  I try to be a person first, and a bling person second.
I get up, go to work, come home, use my computer, play with my cat,
cook, listen to music, read etc.  I am not trying to be cute or
avoid answering, I am not quite sure what to say.  I am reluctant
to focus on my blindness as the central point of my life.  Yes
there are little frustrations, and I use a reader, and
driver/errand helper, but blindness is only one part of my life,
and not the largest part though.  As you read BlinkTalk over a
period of time, you will get a feel for our experiences and see
that we are all different, we disagree and/or agree, some of us are
nice guys, like me, and some of us are jerks.  All in all we are
about like everybody else.  To prove that, someone will disagree
with this message, so here we go.

David Andrews

... Your Sound Alternative

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David.Andrews@f89.n129.z1.fidonet.org (David Andrews) (11/06/90)

Index Number: 11590

[This is from the Blink Talk Conference]

 DA>> Sun glasses smeared with petrolium jelly is not the same thing as a  
 DA>> blindfold.  
 DA>> While they would deminish vision, they would not block it out completely.
 DA>> What we all are talking about here is the total absence of sight. 
 DA>> The other approach could have merit except that it would perpetuate the  
 DA>> notion that those who have some sight are luckier then us poor
 DA>> guys with nothing 
      
 WS>      Well, aren't they? 
 
Walter,  I had some vision until about two years ago, and lost it
then.  I must say that my life has not changed since then.  I may
get a little more help in the grocery store, although I can still
find most things, and I have abandoned my print playboy
collection, but the quality of my life is no different.  Yes,
there are a couple things I would like to see, like the ballon
fiesta here in Albuquerque, but they do not change my life, the
presence or absence.  I certainly do not wish people to be
totally blind, but it isn't the end of the world.  Schools for
the blind especially set up a cast system which makes the
partially sighted more priveleged then the totally blind, giving
them the idea they are better.  It creates an us and them
attitude.  When I was in blind school, in Virginia, totals could
not go downtown by themselves, but partials could.  Some
parftially sighted people try to use their sight for things for
which it is not appropriate, so there are probably instances
where a blind person would be better off.  I have also known
partials that lord their sight over me, telling me where to go
etc.  It allows them to feel superior.  I think it is very
dangerous and counterproductive for us to set up these class
distinctions.
David Andrews

... Your Sound Alternative

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Walter.Siren@p18.f5.n396.z1.fidonet.org (Walter Siren) (11/14/90)

Index Number: 11681

[This is from the Blink Talk Conference]

 DA>> The other approach could have merit except that it would
 DA> perpetuate the  
 DA>> notion 
 DA>> that those who have some sight are luckier then us poor
 DA> guys with nothing 

Well, the plain fact is that are.  Those with sight can get in
their car and go at a moment's notice.  Sure I can get a cab, not
to mention the expense, but the inconvenience of trying to get
somewhere at a certain time.  The same way when going out of town
on a trip, it is a lot more convenient to go right out the door,
and get into a car, and get out at your destination.  Much better
then having to get a cab, catch a bus, and a cab on the other end.

It is a lot easier to shop when you have sight, and a lot easier to
travel in strange places.  To say that it is just as easy for me as
it is for them is hog wash.

Btw they can get a job easier than we can.  That little fact is
worth something.

 DA> Walter,  I had some vision until about two years ago, and lost it
 DA> then.  I must say that my life has not changed since then.  I may
 DA> get a little more help in the grocery store, 

     There is a change right there you admit to.

 DA> the quality of my life is no different.  Yes,
 DA> there are a couple things I would like to see, like the ballon
 DA> fiesta here in Albuquerque, but they do not change my life, the
 DA> presence or absence.  I certainly do not wish people to be
 DA> totally blind, but it isn't the end of the world.  

I never said that it is the end of the world.   But, to say that it
does not make a difference, is just fooling yourself, and no one
else.

 DA> the blind especially set up a cast system which makes the
 DA> partially sighted more priveleged then the totally blind, giving
 DA> them the idea they are better.  It creates an us and them
 DA> attitude.  When I was in blind school, in Virginia, totals could
 DA> not go downtown by themselves, but partials could.  Some
 DA> parftially sighted people try to use their sight for things for
 DA> which it is not appropriate, so there are probably instances
 DA> where a blind person would be better off.  I have also known
 DA> partials that lord their sight over me, telling me where to go

Well, this is one place that Louisiana is ahead of other places for
a change.  AT the school for the blind, we totals could go out in
town by ourselves like the partials.

I aggree, unfortunately that a lot of the partials think that they
are better than us totals, but all of them do not think that way.
Why do you think that people wanted to be visually impaired, they
don't want to be blind, except when it comes time to get their
income tax filled out.  But, I will still have to admit that they
are somewhat better off than us, but that don't mean that they are
any better.  Being better, and better off is two different things.

I certainly don't think a blind person should go around feeling
sorry for himself, but he has to face facts, that we can't do every
thing that a person with sight can do.  I think that the best way I
heard it put one time, I am not so bad off, but it is a little
inconvenient at times.

 DA> etc.  It allows them to feel superior.  I think it is very
 DA> dangerous and counterproductive for us to set up these class
 DA> distinctions.

Unfortunately class distinctions probably will always be around,
and that doesn't only occur with blind and sighted people.  You and
I both know that there many other facts that play apart in class
distinction, and that doesn't make it right.  I think that a person
who thinks that he is better off than someone else is worse off in
the long run.   What we or anyone else thinks doesn't make it so.

               Walter 

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Greg.Mason@f11.n203.z1.fidonet.org (Greg Mason) (11/14/90)

Index Number: 11689

[This is from the Blink Talk Conference]

Hello everyone,

Blindness and the blindfold is a very interesting topic for
discussion.  First of all, most people that are considered blind
have some vission.  Only about three per cent of the blind are
totally blind.  I have a little vission and I think every little
bit helps.  I don't think that people with some vission function
beter than those with no vission.  I know a lot of totally blind
people that function beter that partcially sighted people.  I think
it is a matter of experiences and training.  I know a lot of blind
people that have been sheltered all their lives and they seem to be
very limited socially as well as independence in daily living.  I
think that blindness is only an inconvenience.  It makes life a
little more dificult but we can do almost anything we wany
especially now days with the technology and availability of
technology in the work place.  I am a normal person with interest
and desires like others.  My blindness does not keep me from
enjoying a normal life.

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Gary.Petraccaro@f90.n129.z1.fidonet.org (Gary Petraccaro) (11/14/90)

Index Number: 11698

[This is from the Blink Talk Conference]

David,

     The people set up those caste systems themselves as far as I can tell.
 It seems to me that Walter's right.  I sure as hell would like to read any
book I want, and though I'm not even slightly depressed with my lot, there
are still things on my "want" list (as opposed to "need" list (grin)).

--
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Henry.Kasten@p0.f33.n130.z1.fidonet.org (Henry Kasten) (11/21/90)

Index Number: 11923

[This is from the Blink Talk Conference]

Hi Gang,  The following is an excerpt from the Corps of Engineers
monthly publication.  It addresses Barrier Town.  I think we all
agree that a simulation is not the same as the real McCoy, but I
feel after you read this you may find that more sensitivity can be
established from such a program.

 Barrier Town...Learning more about the obstacles the physically
impaired face
By Tyler Sarlow, IMO

My friend and I love to go driving. We often take weekend trips to
out-of-the-way places just to see what we find. One thing you need
to know is that I am confined to a wheelchair and my friend is
blind.

Driving allows me the freedom to swiftly glide down an interstate
without the barriers I face in my chair. For my friend I am able to
describe the scenery as we go along and she takes in the smells of
the countryside. Yeah, life is grand on these trips.

One weekend we happened upon a small community, called Barrier
Town.  Little did we know that the town would live up to its name.

We got out to look around with my friend holding on to the back of
my wheelchair--this works out really well for both of us because
I'm the only one in her way.

Our first stop was the Post Office since my friend needed to mail a
letter. The postal worker was no help at all--he held an envelope
right in front of my friend's face without saying a word and
knowing all along she was blind. She was embarrassed when I had to
tell her to take the envelope and I was upset because the counter
was too high for me to help her.

After that rude experience, we decided to get something to eat. But
this, too, would become an unappetizing event.

We could almost taste the meatloaf and were looking forward to a
real "country" meal.  We asked to be seated next to the window, but
were made to sit back by the kitchen to get us out of the way. I
suspected that they had few handicapped people in their restaurant
because the waitress seemed uneasy around us and spoke so loud as
if we were deaf, too.  We decided to leave the restaurant and eat
at the fast food place next door and as we left, she said, "People
in wheelchairs aren't usually that rude." I wonder what she meant
by that.

Well, on our way out-of-town we stopped at a convenience store.
Someone had spray- painted "in" before the "convenience" sign on
the front door. We should have taken that warning to heart because
the man behind the counter tried to short-change us and, had I not
been there, my friend would have been stuck with chocolate milk
when she specifically asked for skim milk.

The only good part about this trip was visiting the park in front
of the town's city hall.

We watched the squirrels and listened to the birds while we rested
before our journey home. As we left, we stopped at the water
fountain and it was actually low enough for a person in a
wheelchair to lean over and drink from. I wondered who was
responsible for helping the disabled, but it didn't matter. I only
knew that I truly appreciated it.       The story above is
fictitious, but the examples are real. Even today in an age when
laws have been passed to accommodate the handicapped, few abide by
them.

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