34AEJ7D@CMUVM.BITNET (Bill Gorman) (01/07/91)
Index Number: 12657 Here is a collection of additional information regarding what the Baby Bells are doing about charging business rates to modem users. This is NOT "old news" and it is NOT going away without input from computerists. My own state, MI, is holding hearings in TWO WEEKS to decide this issue and so far, NOBODY HAS EVEN MENTIONED THE IMPACT ALL THIS WILL HAVE ON disABLED USERS WHO DEPEND ON COMPUTERS, MODEMS, TTYs, ETC., FOR ACCESS TO SERVICES, COMMUNICATIONS, ETC. ----------------------------Original message---------------------------- from: "Michael H. Riddle" <riddle@CRCHPUX.UNL.EDU> subject: Telecoms Ripping off BBSs? Date: Thu, 27 Dec 90 05:59:11 cst note: A number of states have already begun charging BBSs with business rates. In some states, this may be a nuisance but not prohibitive. In Illinois, for example, our own base rate in DeKalb of $24.02 would increase to $34 were we to run a BBS. In other states (see following file), the charges could be prohibitive if multi-line charges required deposits and other fees. A representative from GTE in Indiana indicated that they had no formal means of enforcing the charges other than to investigate if they received reports of an unregistered BBS operating in their jurisdiction. We have heard of no hobbyist in the U.S. paying for a business line to run a non-commercial BBS, but the implications, if the practice is allowed to spread unchecked, are serious. Enforced charges could be the end of the local or regional Bulletin Board as they currently exist. The issue, according to the Indiana spokesperson, is alleged to be one of fairness and equity in billing. Why, they, ask, should someone whose phone is in constant use pay the same as somebody who uses their phone only a fraction of the time? Our response is that there is little, if any, added expense to telecom operations whether a phone is used for 20 minutes or 20 hours during a given day. Further, the user is already paying an added charge simply for the receipt of calls. If one adds in toll charges for the hundreds of thousands of those who call long distance, BBSs generate considerable revenue for telecom companies. Classifying BBSs as business lines and increasing the charges strikes us as unabashed greed. Why not *REDUCE* the rates for BBS lines, which only receive calls and generate considerable revenue in long distance charges? This is not a trivial concern. Telephone rates, like all utilities, tend to rise. The policies identified in the following two files should motivate all of us to become involved by 1) Writing letters to local telecom companies 2) Writing to elected officials 3) Introducing these campaigns in local and regional elections 4) Writing to state utililty commissions 5) Attending and participating in hearings --- original post on alt.cosuard as reposted on comp.dcom.telecom--- The following cross-posted information is extracted from alt.cosuard. Can anyone in Indiana or a closely neighboring state provide any details on this? >From: BILL BLOMGREN - Sysop: St. Pete Programmers Exchange RIME: PETEX Well ... thought I would pass this tidbit of bad news along ... GTE Indiana prevailed against the BBS systems there ... ALL BBS's in GTE's area there are now at BUSINESS RATES. Which means $50 per month base rates, plus MUCH higher long distance charges. Indiana Bell ... has filed the same tariff with the PUC (Public Utilities Commission) there, making it state wide. Needless to say, GTE has a history of going after the little guy, so you can expect it here in the REAL near future! I expect it nation- wide in the near future. In Indiana, they decided that THE PHONE COMPANY can decide that your residence is a business, and charge high rates to all service incoming. Unfortunately, the courts agreed with them. Ain't Monopolies Nice??? ----- Not a nice situation huh? We didn't need a precedent to be set like this ... now this paves the way for other companies to follow suit. It'll be interesting to watch the nodelist to see if the nets in Indiana (201 in Lafayette, 227 in South Bend, 230 in the Gary Area, 231 in Indy, 236 in Ft. Wayne/NE IN and 2230 in Terre Haute and 11/15 in Evansville) start shrinking. Paul UUCP: crash!pro-lep!shiva ARPA: crash!pro-lep!shiva@nosc.mil INET: shiva@pro-lep.cts.com --- End of Cross Posting --- <<<< insert standard disclaimer here >>>> riddle@hoss.unl.edu | University of Nebraska postmaster%inns@iugate.unomaha.edu | College of Law mike.riddle@f27.n285.z1.fidonet.org | Lincoln, Nebraska, USA ---- my own responses to comments in the Omaha Sysops echo ---- In a message to M. RIDDLE, JACK WINSLADE writes as of 25-DEC-90 14:30:26 >Since you are the closest to being a real lawyer of any of us, and since >you were the one who 'broke' the story to Tel_Dig, would you be willing to >give an educated opinion on specifically what, when, and how much the >Indiana decision will affect us here in Omaha. See the previous response to Joan for what news there is. >I'm sure that this will result in Yet Another round of 'The Sky Is >Falling' <tm> messages in every sysops' conference just as soon as it hits >Arfnews, etc. and enters the distortion-prone person-to-person-to-person >chain of communication. The only thing faster than the speed of light is the manner is which disinformation about BBS law propagates across the net. >Is this decision effective immediately, or will a higher court (or >something else) intervene ?? How might this affect the situation in >Nebraska (where Clink is about to buy the farm) and in the other states >such as Texas ?? Since the limited information we have suggests this is a PUC decision, it is still appealable to the courts. If appealed, it will probably not go into effect until final judgment. It's direct effect would only be in Indiana. The Nebraska PUC might not care a great deal what Indiana did, or it might give them some value as "persuasive precedent." The arguments GTE used might have some value. They might not. It all depends on how the Indiana statutes are worded. My guess is the fight is over "what is a business for the purpose of telephone rates?", which will in turn include "why do businesses pay higher rates than residences?" The answer to the second is generally "because they use the phone more." The answer to the first has usually been "some kind of organization that either makes a profit or has formal nonprofit status." We all know that successful BBSes use telephone resources more than a residence, perhaps more than many businesses. That supports GTEs position. The fact that they are hobby operations is what complicates the picture, and the PUC reaction is difficult to predict. >Comments, suggestions ?? Keep calm and wait for a better report on what happened. >Good (??) Day! JSW G'Day back to you, mate! MHR --- end of quoted messages --- ------------------------------ from: Ed Hopper <ehopper@ehpcb.wlk.com> subject: Michigan Bell vs BBSs Date: Mon, 31 Dec 90 23:49:03 CST Organization: Ed Hopper's BBS - Houston, Texas 713-997-7575 From: TELECOM Digest Tue, 1 Jan 91 03:46:40 CST Volume 11 : Issue 1 (Note: I am sending this on behalf of Bruce Wilson.) >From the FACTS BBS in Flint, Michigan, by way of the Vehicle City BBS in Davison, Michigan: On January 15, 1991, an administrative hearing will be held before the Michigan Public Service Commission to discuss a complaint filed against Michigan Bell Telephone Company. Early this year, a private bulletin board in Grosse Point, called the Variety and Spice BBS, was ordered to pay an increased charge for phone service because it was discovered he was accepting donations for use of his BBS. This BBS ran on an IBM, and supports sixteen separate lines. Although a portion of the BBS was open to the public, most of the BBS (including an "adult file" area, were restricted to those who sent a donation to the BBS. The money collected didn't even come close to the actual cost of running such a BBS. Michigan Bell claims that placing any condition on the use of a BBS constitutes a business, and that the sysop must pay a business rate for his phone line, plus pay a $100 deposit for EACH LINE in use. This means the Variety and Spice sysop would have to pay a $1600 deposit, plus about $50 additional each month if he wanted to continue his BBS. The sysop refused to pay this fee, so Michigan Bell disconnect his lines. The sysop filed a complaint with the MPSC. Until this case was heard, he decided to re-install the phone lines (at a considerable cost to himself). If Michigan Bell wins this case, they will require every BBS sysop to pay business rates for each of their lines, if it is determined that the BBS is accepting fees or donations. The Variety and Spice sysop claims that MBT considers requiring users to upload files or post messages (ie upload/download ratios) the same as a donation, and will require the sysop to upgrade his line to a business line whether money was exchanged or not. However, in an interview I did in March, I talked to the chief spokesman of MBT, who claimed that this was not the case. Only if money is accepted will MBT demand the sysop pay business rate. The important thing here is that AT THIS TIME, these are the rules that MBT believes is in the tariff. If Variety and Spice loses this case, it is conceivable that MBT can request further restrictions to be placed. At this hearing, the public will be allowed to voice their opinions and comments. This applies to both sysops and users. If MBT wins this case it can cause serious restrictions to be place on BBS's, and will set a precedence for other phone companies around the country to follow. Your help is urgently needed!! Please try to attend this hearing. It will be held at the Public Service Building, 6545 Merchant Way, Lansing, Michigan. The date is January 15. I do not have the exact time but I assume this hearing will last most of the day. You do not have to testify, but it would really be helpful if you can attend as a show of support. The MPSC does not think the Michigan public even cares about BBS's. But we can certainly jar their thinking if we can pack the room with sysops and users! For more information, please contact Jerry Cross at 313-736-4544 (voice) or 313-736-3920 (bbs). You can also contact the sysop of the Variety & Spice BBS at 313-885-8377. Please! We need your support. Notes from Ed Hopper: In our case against Southwestern Bell, the same cockeyed logic was applied. For a brief period, Southwestern Bell also maintained that the requirement of file uploads was, in and of itself, cause for them to declare a BBS to be a business because it required something "of value" for access. We were able to force Southwestern Bell to see things in a more moderate tone. Recently, I had the opportunity to testify before the Texas PUC regarding the Texas BBS case. In that testimony, I stated that the telcos draw all sorts of extreme scenarios in which the provision of residential service to BBS systems is against the public good. Their argument goes: "If we allow them to have residential service, it will upset the equations and raise the cost of telecommunications services to everyone." However, there is not a BBS on every block, or even one in every subdivision, and no rational observer would ever expect that to be the case. There is, however, cause for most rational observers to believe that the increased cost of business service, including it's increased burden in the area of deposits and installation charges, could cause the closing of many BBS outlets. This, truly, would not be in the public good. Ed Hopper President The Coalition of Sysops and Users Against Rate Discrimination BBS: 713-997-7575 ehopper@attmail.com ehopper@ehpcb.wlk.com ------------------------------ from: well!jwarren@APPLE.COM(Jim Warren) subject: Clarification of Gail Thackeray's Comment on Modem Licensing Date: Sun, 30 Dec 90 12:59:54 pst GAIL THACKERAY RE LICENSING MODEMS & RESTRICTING MODEM USE On 12/21, as a postscript on e-mail to Gail Thackeray, I asked: +++++++++++++++++++++++++ Been meanin' to check this *rumor* for months (I rarely trust what I haven't checked, personally): Have you said that modems should be licensed and their use restricted? (It's been widely quoted/paraphrased and is a common [mis?]perception of your views.) If you ever said it, do you now hold that view? I'm not challenging it; just tryin' to verify or refute a provocative rumor. +++++++++++++++++++++++++ To which, Gail responded: +++++++++++++++++++++++++ Date: Sat, 22 Dec 90 10:04:05 pst from: gailt (Gail Thackeray) To: jwarren No, I never said so -- when talking about the lack of parental supervision of computer use for beginning youngsters, I have pointed out that in other instances involving driving, guns, etc. we recognize that kids don't have good judgment and we insist on training, supervision, licensing, etc. to minimize the risk to the rest of society. I have specifically said that I DON'T want to see licensing of modems, or FCC regulation, etc. -- but that if we look at historic parallels involving new technology (driving, airplanes, etc.) when society grows annoyed/concerned enough with abuses, damage, risk to others, "entry requirements" such as licensing have been imposed. I have recommended that to avoid such a trend in electronic technology, we should put a lot of effort into developing "rules of the road" that we all agree on and abide by & teach youngsters -- or the back- lash may cause formal regulation (just think about the regulations controlling ham radio, etc. -- and the potential for similar rules is quite real, computer-wise.) Regulation usually comes about as a reaction to complaints of enough people to attract the interest of legislators. We are rapidly approaching that "critical mass" stage with computer communications, and if we don't want to see licensing of BBS's, we need to do whatever will curb the abuses (interference with other people's rights). I have recommended that parents check into what their kids are doing with their modems, set rules, ans if need be, "ground" their kids just as they do for other kinds of rules- violations, like being reckless with the family car.... -------------------------------------------- This prompted my 12/24 comments and request: -------------------------------------------- & mail gailt subject: licensing etc. Gail, This is important: If you have not yet posted exactly those comments, in detail, regarding licensing and regulation of modem users, I *urge* you to post them immediately and completely to the eff Conference, and explicitly add a note encouraging their widespread duplication (without editing, of course) across the nets. You are more than welcome to preface it with a comment that I urged you to post the comments (if that has any value :-). I absolutely agree with your observations and think we have *much* to fear from overzealous legislators/regulators responding to the miniscule minority who are abusive of our tremendously productive cooperative anarchy. ... ------------------ I also urged her to send it to jthomas for the Computer Underground Digest and emmanuel for 2600, and sent mail to both of them urging them to publish it, if Gail sent it, saying, in part: ------------------ Her explanation of what she had and had not said related to such matters was both reasonable and **illustrated a very real threat** (from legislators and regulators; *not* from Gail T) against all of us. Her comments were very realistic; her prognosis highly likely, if we cannot exercise adequate discipline within our ranks. I have urged her to post her comments on the WELL, and forward them to Cud and 2600 for publication (and release them for general posting around the nets). --------------------------------------------------------------- I hope you will help do so, because we now have her permission: --------------------------------------------------------------- from gailt Mon Dec 24 19:51:53 1990 Date: Mon, 24 Dec 90 19:51:51 pst from: gailt (Gail Thackeray) To: jwarren subject: Re: licensing etc. Willing, but ignorant: so how do I DO that? I thought whatever was sent in E-mail went into the cosmic winds.... is there a way I can retrieve what I sent you, & post it? Can you retireve & upload it? I'm (definitely) still stumblin' around here, and help would be great/grate/fully accepted.... & Date: Mon, 24 Dec 90 19:55:02 pst from: gailt (Gail Thackeray) To: emmanuel, jthomas, jwarren subject: Re: Thacvkeray and licensing By the by -- feel free to use it -- I just don't know (after scanning\ the manual -- how to retrieve what I sent Jim, and publish it out of e-mail. ... ************** For those who don't know of Ms. Thackeray, she is an Assistant State Attorney General for the State of Arizona, active in pursuing computer crime, and controversial for some of her public statements and/or statements that.some press *allege* she said. In some cases, she may have been as misleadingly quoted-out-of-context -- or flat-out abusively misquoted -- as has been the case with some reports about Mitch Kapor, John Perry Barlow and the Electronic Frontier Foundation. --Jim Warren [permission herewith granted to circulate this-in-full] ------------------------------