Fran.O'gorman@f41.n267.z1.fidonet.org (Fran O'gorman) (01/17/91)
Index Number: 13018
[This is from the Silent Talk Conference]
Hello James,
If my memory serves me correctly, I think I recall that you
are a teacher, that you sign, and that you are actively associated
with a signing group of people. Perhaps you could help me.
Tzipporah, a dear lady I've known since I began writing Sign
Friends (oh, I should've told you that, I'm Fran its author) has
been in touch with a coordinator of training for EMS personnel and
he gave her a list of words he would like me to include in the
program. They are quite technical (some of them) related to the
kinds of questions an EMS worker would ask a person if on an
emergency call. Like 'last bowel movement' or 'bloody sputum' in
a cough.
My thought was that if an EMS worker knew the usual
preliminaries of sign, that he/she could just ask the question
(making sure to be sensitive to face the person and not swallow
the words) that most signers could probably lip read the question
and what would be needed is enough knowledge of sign to be able to
interpret the signed response. Finding books that contain some of
these signs has been a problem and offhand I don't know some of
them.
Am I correct in my assumption (that most signers can lipread)
in your experience? If you don't have an answer to this but
someone else reading this does, I'd appreciate your info/input.
It's not that I'm adverse to including some of these in my
program, but I may not be able to do all, and my thought is that
it may not be necessary in order for an EMS person to be able to
assist a deaf/signing person.
Thanks for your help in this matter.
Sincerely,
Fran
--
Uucp: ..!{decvax,oliveb}!bunker!hcap!hnews!267!41!Fran.O'gorman
Internet: Fran.O'gorman@f41.n267.z1.fidonet.orgJack.O'keeffe@f26.n129.z1.fidonet.org (Jack O'keeffe) (01/17/91)
Index Number: 13019
[This is from the Silent Talk Conference]
FO> Am I correct in my assumption (that most signers can
FO> lipread) in your experience? If you don't have an answer to
FO> this but someone else reading this does, I'd appreciate your
FO> info/input. It's not that I'm adverse to including some of
FO> these in my program, but I may not be able to do all, and my
FO> thought is that it may not be necessary in order for an EMS
FO> person to be able to assist a deaf/signing person.
Fran, speechreading (lipreading) ability varies widely. Even very
good speechreaders (like me, haha) find it impossible to read some
individuals. Medical people can be among the worst. There is an
MD from Houston, Dr. Red Duke, who has an UNcaptioned television
spot that a local station picks up. Dr. Red has a bushy mustache
and a mumbling drawl. I challenge anyone to speechread Dr. Red.
The problem of communicating with medical personnel at all levels
is well recognized. I believe that hearing people experience this
difficulty also. But I would really hate to see Sign Friends
encumbered with a flock of narrowly specialized signs that would
be used so infrequently. These signs might do more harm than good.
The fact that you are having difficulty locating the appropriate
signs must tell you something re their frequency of use and degree
of understanding, even within the signing deaf community.
Sign Friends does support fingerspelling, and I think this may be
the answer. IMHO, most EMS personnel should be willing to learn
fingerspelling, and this is a reliable way of communicating with
signers, whether or not they are able to speechread.
The proposal to add arcane specialized vocabulary to Sign Friends
was, no doubt, well intentioned. But it is does not impress me as
a good idea. Don't do it.
Re: release 4.0. You have been so good about keeping me updated
on your frequent releases of Sign Friends, and I really appreciate
your efforts. But you go way above and beyond what other shareware
authors do. You really shouldn't go to the trouble (and expense)
of mailing me a copy of each new release, especially now that
Sign Friends is available thru SDN. If you announce new releases
in SilentTalk, and give us the SDN filename, that is all that can
be expected of you. Once Sign Friends gets the hundreds (thousands)
of paid registrations that it so richly deserves, your direct mail
distribution could become quite burdensome.
Best wishes to you and yours for a Happy New Year.
... Jack.
--
Uucp: ..!{decvax,oliveb}!bunker!hcap!hnews!129!26!Jack.O'keeffe
Internet: Jack.O'keeffe@f26.n129.z1.fidonet.orgJay.Croft@p0.f147.n109.z1.fidonet.org (Jay Croft) (01/26/91)
Index Number: 13210
[This is from the Silent Talk Conference]
The hospital is *supposed* to provide sign language interpreters. They
don't always, and the "interpreter's" skills may not be adequate,
especially in small communities.
I was once in International Falls, MN in February (30 degrees below) and
wondered what they would do if a deaf person on a skiing vacation had an
accident and came into the hospital. The best interpreter in town had
very limited skills.
--
Uucp: ..!{decvax,oliveb}!bunker!hcap!hnews!109!147.0!Jay.Croft
Internet: Jay.Croft@p0.f147.n109.z1.fidonet.orgJay.Croft@p0.f147.n109.z1.fidonet.org (Jay Croft) (01/26/91)
Index Number: 13214
[This is from the Silent Talk Conference]
Sorry about the negative experience with the sign language teacher. As
in any field, some want to intimidate the students.
Does the NYSD (New York School for the Deaf) in White Plains offer sign
language classes in Orange County?
--
Uucp: ..!{decvax,oliveb}!bunker!hcap!hnews!109!147.0!Jay.Croft
Internet: Jay.Croft@p0.f147.n109.z1.fidonet.orgFran.O'gorman@f94.n272.z1.fidonet.org (Fran O'gorman) (01/26/91)
Index Number: 13215
[This is from the Silent Talk Conference]
JC> Unfortunately, deaf people will never receive medical care equal
JC> to that received by hearing people until the system is in the
JC> hands of deaf people. That won't happen, of course.
You know, if a Doctor or a member of the Board of a hospital
became deaf, all of a sudden I'll bet the services to the deaf in
THAT hospital would improve 100%. They won't become sensitive to
the needs of others when it just doesn't affect them...but there
are federal regulations as you pointed out, not to mention
humanitarian concerns they SHOULD have...
I think the only thing that prevents real disasters and tragedies
is the presence of people like that EMS worker Rob Carr (hope you
got to see his msg to me) -- individuals like that who are
humanitarian enough to see the need, and willing to respond to it
by doing that little extra that might be required (like learn
sign) to be ready when the need arises to help.
And as for TDD's not working...that's pure beauracratic stupidity!
If they spent the money on the equipment and can't even use it,
they should be made to look ridiculous...but unfortunately people
wouldn't even be aware except the HI people affected...perhaps
that's the kind of thing, if the hospitals are unresponsive that
should be brought to the attention of the local papers (?)
--Fran
--
Uucp: ..!{decvax,oliveb}!bunker!hcap!hnews!272!94!Fran.O'gorman
Internet: Fran.O'gorman@f94.n272.z1.fidonet.orgFran.O'gorman@f94.n272.z1.fidonet.org (Fran O'gorman) (01/26/91)
Index Number: 13219
[This is from the Silent Talk Conference]
Hi Jay,
JC> Sorry about the negative experience with the sign language
JC> teacher. As in any field, some want to intimidate the students.
I don't think she was INTENTIONALLY trying to intimidate us, just
felt she had to be tough for us to master to the level she
expected in just a few weeks. Especially for those repeaters who
comprised the majority of the class. It was like doing a Jane
Fonda work out when I was a more up for the 'gentle aerobics' :-)
The fact that the end product or goal of these courses was the
interpreters license was also part the reason...I think.
JC> Does the NYSD (New York School for the Deaf) in White Plains offer
JC> sign language classes in Orange County?
White Plains is in Westchester County --2 counties away from
Orange (and we're in the mountains) Unless that school were to
send teachers...but I've never heard of it...I don't think so.
Even though we're not that many miles from NYC or any place with
resouces --culturally and mentally we seem light years away...I
guess it's the mountains and the rural aspect it still has...
--Fran
--
Uucp: ..!{decvax,oliveb}!bunker!hcap!hnews!272!94!Fran.O'gorman
Internet: Fran.O'gorman@f94.n272.z1.fidonet.orgFran.O'gorman@f94.n272.z1.fidonet.org (Fran O'gorman) (01/26/91)
Index Number: 13204
[This is from the Silent Talk Conference]
>> Was that related to people problems or equipment problems?
AS> PEOPLE related, of course!!!! What else is new??? So many
AS> take things for granted until we educate them but boy, what an
AS> education that can be and a big headache at times.
I know what you mean, but in the end many will benefit, so I guess
it's worth the pain, just wish people were more sensitive at
times.
AS> such as locking TDDs up in rooms where NO ONE can access them!
AS> Actually, people don't realize they need to keep a TDD hooked up
AS> at all times until you explain why. I'm referring to the ER in
AS> this case and sometimes give the hospitals, City Hall and Police
AS> stations here a call every so often to keep them in practice.
I think that what happens is someone on top might realizes,"hey
yea, we should have a TDD!" and orders one, but then, no follow
through. I'll bet many of the people that would then use it,
aren't trained and don't know how to.
AS> There is such a big turnover at the hospitals and Police station
AS> (even though they are supposed to train new personnel as they come
AS> in, they often forget to do it) which makes this necessary. I was
AS> asked to do this by several of our city officials, so I try.
OK so I see there is training but when they asked, do they pay
you? It's probably on your own time as a volunteer. It should be
formal thing and you should be paid. They shouldn't depend on
kindnesses and someone donating their time for something so
important and essential, it should be a firmly established part of
their training.
--Fran
--
Uucp: ..!{decvax,oliveb}!bunker!hcap!hnews!272!94!Fran.O'gorman
Internet: Fran.O'gorman@f94.n272.z1.fidonet.orgJay.Croft@p0.f147.n109.z1.fidonet.org (Jay Croft) (01/26/91)
Index Number: 13207
[This is from the Silent Talk Conference]
Unfortunately, deaf people will never receive medical care equal to
that received by hearing people until the system is in the hands of
deaf people. That won't happen, of course.
Last fall I was scheduled for surgery. The hospital had a special
insert in its patient handbook for H-I people. The hospital
advertised four TDD numbers.
I tried three of them, and none of them were answered. The fourth
was in the emergency room. When I later visited the ER I was
informed that the TDD was "broken."
--
Uucp: ..!{decvax,oliveb}!bunker!hcap!hnews!109!147.0!Jay.Croft
Internet: Jay.Croft@p0.f147.n109.z1.fidonet.orgAnn.Stalnaker@p0.f14.n385.z1.fidonet.org (Ann Stalnaker) (01/26/91)
Index Number: 13221
Ann.Stalnaker@p0.f14.n385.z1.fidonet.org (Ann Stalnaker) (01/26/91)
Index Number: 13221 [This is from the Silent Talk Conference] > I think that what happens is someone on top might realizes,"hey > yea, we should have a TDD!" and orders one, but then, no > follow through. I'll bet many of the people that would then > use it, aren't trained and don't know how to. Yes, it often happens this way - however, since I pushed so hard for them to install the TDDs in Lawton (along with several others), it was part of my job to show them how to operate the TDDs. When the police department and several other city offices decided to purchase TDDs, I was working for AT&T at that time and serving on the Community Relations Committee. It was well worth training them on a voluntary basis then as I was anxious to get this started. Once the city made the effort, others started doing the same. However, and sadly, it took our hospitals forever to purchase TDDs and other assistive devices, but now all seems to be working pretty well. -- Uucp: ..!{decvax,oliveb}!bunker!hcap!hnews!385!14.0!Ann.Stalnaker Internet: Ann.Stalnaker@p0.f14.n385.z1.fidonet.org
Fran.O'gorman@f94.n272.z1.fidonet.org (Fran O'gorman) (01/26/91)
Index Number: 13241
[This is from the Silent Talk Conference]
Hi Jay,
JC> I used to live in the Bronx and at one time seriously considered
JC> buying a house in Orange County. Kids from your county are bussed
JC> to the New York School for the Deaf, so it's part of their
JC> stomping grounds.
That ( the bussing to the NY School for the Deaf) is still done but
only rarely. Orange/Ulster BOCES tries to provide the program
where possible and avoid the long trip. The NY School for the
Deaf is excellent and the few that do get to go there get a better
deal educationally-- I think...what a coincidence that you know
Orange county :-) Most people never heard of it --and then when I
say, Florida NY--they crack up! Oh well... :-)
I guess I'm not familiar or adroit enough with Silver Express or
I'd pull in the quote from your msg to Rob Carr, but when you
expressed umbrage with "hearies" making decisions for deaf people
I felt the sting as I too am a "hearie" and when tossing around
this idea of writing or not writing chapters I've been asking
everybody, hearing and deaf alike, whoever could possibly use the
program, their opinion...
I think that the reason Rob Carr asked for a sign for EMS here in
this echo, is because most of the people ARE deaf, and he wanted
to use a sign that he felt most deaf people would like, and feel
most comfortable with.
You're right about how becoming deaf later, does not guarantee
that a person will become sensitive to the issues or concerns of
deafness, and that with so many newly acquired experiences, there
will be those who will feel they qualify as 'experts'. I think
real sensitivity comes when someone really cares and WANTS to help
and that can take a lifetime of experiences, I think-- and
unfortunately, for some, is never acquired. It is especially a
problem though when that lack is present in the caring/helping
professions. It can be draining too, even when you are trying.
As a priest, you've probably found that yourself.
I read in your msg to James about the sign language interpreter's
exam costing $500 to take...wow, and if a person failed and wanted
to take it later--I guess $1000! No wonder there are so few of
them, and thus so few courses--got to have the license to teach it
I imagine. Is there any reason why the fee is so prohibitive? I
would have been in no way ready to take it at the end of my
course, but I had no idea it would have been so expensive.
--Fran
--
Uucp: ..!{decvax,oliveb}!bunker!hcap!hnews!272!94!Fran.O'gorman
Internet: Fran.O'gorman@f94.n272.z1.fidonet.orgJames.Womack@f14.n300.z1.fidonet.org (James Womack) (01/26/91)
Index Number: 13244
[This is from the Silent Talk Conference]
For you who experience intimidating sign teachers. There are good teachers
and bad teachers. If you get a bad one, change teachers.
--
Uucp: ..!{decvax,oliveb}!bunker!hcap!hnews!300!14!James.Womack
Internet: James.Womack@f14.n300.z1.fidonet.orgJay.Croft@p0.f147.n109.z1.fidonet.org (Jay Croft) (01/26/91)
Index Number: 13230
[This is from the Silent Talk Conference]
A doctor, or any other person, becoming deaf does not necessarily mean
that he or she will become more sensitive. Too often the person will
deny the disability or become an instant "expert."
--
Uucp: ..!{decvax,oliveb}!bunker!hcap!hnews!109!147.0!Jay.Croft
Internet: Jay.Croft@p0.f147.n109.z1.fidonet.orgJames.Womack@f14.n300.z1.fidonet.org (James Womack) (01/26/91)
Index Number: 13231
[This is from the Silent Talk Conference]
When agencies begin to start respecting interprters as professionals
and paying them what they are worth, we will get better signers and
better qualified interprters. These service providers are simply not
given their due. Personally, I thinkwe deaf people should start pushing
for that real hard.
--
Uucp: ..!{decvax,oliveb}!bunker!hcap!hnews!300!14!James.Womack
Internet: James.Womack@f14.n300.z1.fidonet.orgJay.Croft@p0.f147.n109.z1.fidonet.org (Jay Croft) (01/26/91)
Index Number: 13235
[This is from the Silent Talk Conference]
We've been pushing, to be sure! And we still are.
My daughter is a professional interpreter, so I know what's happening.
One problem is that it costs over $500 to complete the certification
exams. Some very good interpreters simply cannot afford that.
--
Uucp: ..!{decvax,oliveb}!bunker!hcap!hnews!109!147.0!Jay.Croft
Internet: Jay.Croft@p0.f147.n109.z1.fidonet.orgFran.O'gorman@f94.n272.z1.fidonet.org (Fran O'gorman) (02/05/91)
Index Number: 13486
[This is from the Silent Talk Conference]
Hi James,
JW> believe my message to you pointed out some of the problems tah
JW> would encountered.
I just received a msg from a Rob Carr an EMS worker who signs and
who says that in a number of cases the early communication DID
make a difference in the care provided. If you can, try to see
that msg. The way in which he asks the questions is important as
it seems to cut down on the chance of serious mis-communication.
JW> However, the one thing I am sure a project like
JW> yours would do is bring attention to the needs of the deaf. It
JW> might actually result in a genuine program that trains EMS people
JW> to be proficient signers. I keep bumping into medical personnel
JW> who sign fairly well. I even trained a few at the local community
JW> college where I teachpart time.
There IS a movement afoot to make the learning of ASL a means of
satisfying the foreign language requirement in HS, so that perhaps
even more courses will open up. That's one of the reasons why I
began writing this, because where I live (Orange County, NY) we're
in a semi-rural area where it is hard to get a sign language
course and that perhaps the program would motivate people to at
least get started.
JW> I guess I will always be one of thos people who believe every
JW> little bit helps.
And you know, you're right. Even what's already in Sign Friends
is a beginning for someone. What I like about it is that it's
non-threatening. I attended an intermediate sign course in which
all the other students were taking the course a 2nd time (the
teacher had failed them the 1st) with the exception of 2 speech
therapists who were 'brushing up' on their skills and then ME!
The teacher was a licensed sign language interpreter. She'd go
around the room with rapid-fire questions (my earlier sign
experience was slow and also different) and she was very impatient
if you had to ask her to repeat the question. I almost dropped
out of the class it was so embarrassing, but I thought of the $50
I'd have to forfeit and figured even if I make a fool of myself,
if I learn something it'll be worth it. But thinking back on that
experience, it could be very intimidating and that in itself could
discourage possible learners. But with the computer you don't
have to be self-conscious when you're just starting out...not that
it'd be a substitute for real people, but just a means of 'getting
your feet wet' so to speak. Also if getting out of the house on a
certain night to attend a course is a problem, the program can be
used at home, which is convenient.
Well thanks again, James...
--Fran
--
Uucp: ..!{decvax,oliveb}!bunker!hcap!hnews!272!94!Fran.O'gorman
Internet: Fran.O'gorman@f94.n272.z1.fidonet.orgAnn.Stalnaker@p0.f14.n385.z1.fidonet.org (Ann Stalnaker) (02/05/91)
Index Number: 13487
[This is from the Silent Talk Conference]
> Was that related to people problems or equipment problems?
PEOPLE related, of course!!!! What else is new??? So many
take things for granted until we educate them but boy, what an education
that can be and a big headache at times. I have a great deal of
patience but sometimes I wonder how long that will last as I get
so infuriated at some of the things I see going on...i.e., such as
locking TDDs up in rooms where NO ONE can access them! Actually,
people don't realize they need to keep a TDD hooked up at all times
until you explain why. I'm referring to the ER in this case and
sometimes give the hospitals, City Hall and Police stations here
a call every so often to keep them in practice. There is such a
big turnover at the hospitals and Police station (even though they
are supposed to train new personnel as they come in, they often forget
to do it) which makes this necessary. I was asked to do this by
several of our city officials, so I try.
--
Uucp: ..!{decvax,oliveb}!bunker!hcap!hnews!385!14.0!Ann.Stalnaker
Internet: Ann.Stalnaker@p0.f14.n385.z1.fidonet.orgJames.Womack@f14.n300.z1.fidonet.org (James Womack) (02/05/91)
Index Number: 13488
[This is from the Silent Talk Conference]
I saw what they said , bud. I can agree with it to an extent and believe
my message to you pointed out some of the problems tah would encountered.
However, the one thing I am sure a project like yours would do is bring
attention to the needs of the deaf. It might actually result in a genuine
program that trains EMS people to be proficient signers. I keep bumping
into medical personnel who sign fairly well. I even trained a few at
the local community college where I teachpart time.
I guess I will always be one of thos people who believe every little
bit helps.
--
Uucp: ..!{decvax,oliveb}!bunker!hcap!hnews!300!14!James.Womack
Internet: James.Womack@f14.n300.z1.fidonet.orgAnn.Stalnaker@p0.f14.n385.z1.fidonet.org (Ann Stalnaker) (02/05/91)
Index Number: 13489 [This is from the Silent Talk Conference] > One problem is that it costs over $500 to complete the > certification exams. Some very good interpreters simply > cannot afford that. That is ridiculous! However, it must just be in your state because it's not that expensive in Oklahoma since DHS and the state of Oklahoma do the testing. We do have different levels of certification and all have to go thru each level before becoming qualified for level 5 which is the highest, I believe. I probably should pull out the booklets I have available regarding this before jumping in with possibly incorrect facts and putting my foot in my mouf! (smiles) To inform you and a few others, when SHHH has their conventions (my first one to attend was the one in LR last summer), they go all out to provide services for us. There were both sign and oral interpreters who alternated in shifts. Of course, there was more available which I'll post later or perhaps Wayne, Jack or Frank might want to jump in on this. -- Uucp: ..!{decvax,oliveb}!bunker!hcap!hnews!385!14.0!Ann.Stalnaker Internet: Ann.Stalnaker@p0.f14.n385.z1.fidonet.org
Jay.Croft@p0.f147.n109.z1.fidonet.org (Jay Croft) (02/05/91)
Index Number: 13494
[This is from the Silent Talk Conference]
Why is the sign language interpreters' exam so expensive? It is
partially videotaped and duplicated, then copies sent to various judges
around the country. Also, the exam is in several parts, for various
levels of certification.
Nevertheless, the cost IS prohibitive for many people, including my
daughter--a college student who's trying to scrape together enough
tuition money!
--
Uucp: ..!{decvax,oliveb}!bunker!hcap!hnews!109!147.0!Jay.Croft
Internet: Jay.Croft@p0.f147.n109.z1.fidonet.orgJack.O'keeffe@f26.n129.z1.fidonet.org (Jack O'keeffe) (02/05/91)
Index Number: 13498
[This is from the Silent Talk Conference]
JC> Nevertheless, the cost IS prohibitive for many people,
JC> including my daughter--a college student who's trying to scrape
JC> together enough tuition money!
Costly professional certifications serve two purposes, Jay.
1. To assure some defined level of competence.
2. To restrict entry into a profession.
When the cost becomes excessive or the procedure unreasonably
cumbersome, one must question which purpose is dominant.
Some of the very best interpreters are native signers, hearing
children of deaf parents, to whom ASL is a "first language".
Yet many of these have not found the need or motivation to
submit to the certification process.
Granted there are situations where an interpreter with the
appropriate "certification" level should be mandatory (court
proceedings come to mind). But hospital emergency rooms where
time is of the essence and lives may be at stake ??? Naaah!
ASL is a language and, like English or French or Spanish, people
use it with varying levels of proficiency. Would anyone seriously
maintain that only degreed English majors should be allowed to
speak English? Or that only ordained ministers should be
permitted to pray?
Jack.
... HI-HoH Silver, Awayyyyy!
--
Uucp: ..!{decvax,oliveb}!bunker!hcap!hnews!129!26!Jack.O'keeffe
Internet: Jack.O'keeffe@f26.n129.z1.fidonet.orgFran.O'gorman@f94.n272.z1.fidonet.org (Fran O'gorman) (02/05/91)
Index Number: 13509
[This is from the Silent Talk Conference]
Hi Jay,
JC> Nevertheless, the cost IS prohibitive for many people, including my
JC> daughter--a college student who's trying to scrape together enough
JC> tuition money!
That's not fair and I see that Ann suggested it might not be the
same kind of fee in every state...it would be like the A.M.A.
making it so hard to get into Med. school artificially keeping the
number of Doctors being trained limited...it probably WILL limit
the number of licensed interpreters being turned out and thus
available. I wonder if something can be done about this? Sounds
like the qualifying test is hard enough...I can understand a fee,
but THAT'S ridiculous...and imagine a re-take--$1000 altogether!
Insane!
--Fran
I wonder if you're near enough to another state that your daughter
could take the test there...have no idea where your from...only
that you lived in NY at one time...perhaps that would be a way for
her for now, although it SHOULD be changed...the fee that is.
--
Uucp: ..!{decvax,oliveb}!bunker!hcap!hnews!272!94!Fran.O'gorman
Internet: Fran.O'gorman@f94.n272.z1.fidonet.orgJay.Croft@p0.f147.n109.z1.fidonet.org (Jay Croft) (02/09/91)
Index Number: 13656
[This is from the Silent Talk Conference]
I'm a degreed English major. And I am an ordained clergyman. So there!
Note that I specify a "qualified," not necessarily certified,
interpreter. Some of my best friends are uncertified interpreters!
--
Uucp: ..!{decvax,oliveb}!bunker!hcap!hnews!109!147.0!Jay.Croft
Internet: Jay.Croft@p0.f147.n109.z1.fidonet.orgJay.Croft@p0.f147.n109.z1.fidonet.org (Jay Croft) (02/09/91)
Index Number: 13657
[This is from the Silent Talk Conference]
I live in Maryland, within shouting distance of the RID home office. The
RID test is given nationwide, so it wouldn't matter where it is taken.
In olden times, certification was generally done by state chapters of
the RID. There was wide variation on standards. Sometimes it depended
on who you were friends with.
--
Uucp: ..!{decvax,oliveb}!bunker!hcap!hnews!109!147.0!Jay.Croft
Internet: Jay.Croft@p0.f147.n109.z1.fidonet.org