Jamal.Mazrui@p0.f89.n129.z1.fidonet.org (Jamal Mazrui) (12/04/90)
Index Number: 12171
[This is from the Advocacy Conference]
Friends, I wish you all to know that the National Federation of the
Blind is today seeking to pass a motion at a national board meeting to
expel me as a member. The reason is views I expressed that were not
party line concerning some of the procedures of the scholarship
committee and the insufficient priorty given to combatting unemployment
of the blind versus fighting for the right of blind people to sit in
the exit rows of airplanes.
As many of you know I have been a dedicated member of this organization
for a decade. It is truly shocking, saddening, and painful to see this
campaign to expel me because I have thought for myself as to the best
interests of blind people. Not only has there not been good cause to
to
expel or otherwise discipline me, but there has not been due process.
Even the Federation's constitution with as little value placed on
individual rights as it does still requires that "a good faith effort
be made to resolve the problem through discussion and negotion" before
a disciplinary motion is brought. Yet no efforts whatever have been
made to discuss issues with me before this motion was planned. I did
indeed receive written notification of it less than a week before this
Saturday Nov. 24, the Saturday of Thanksgiving weekend. However, the
President
would give me no guarantee that a written defense I mailed would be
distributed to the national board or publicly read at the meeting.
To the Federationists out there who read this, I tell you that I have
done nothing to deserve any punitive action in the organization. I
have sought policy changes which I believed would make us more
successful in meeting our objectives and strengthening the movement.
I
do not ask you to hear just my side of the story but to obtain the
facts and judge for yourself.
To those of you out thre who have criticized the Federation in the past
for being undemocratic, all I can say is that I used to believe we were
democratic but I now no longer do. It is very clear to me now that
members, no matter how dedeciated, who express views that may be
regarded as disloyal may experience reprisal of the largest order, that
of membership itself. The Monitor articles we have read and thought were
true
about so many ddedicated leaders who were effectively if not
technically expelled have not perhaps told the whole story. It has
always struck me as odd to hear about the disappearance of so many
valuable leaders. Now I know first hand why this often happens.
I wanted to inform anyone interested about this matter. Fell free to
call me at (617) 666-9856 should you wish further details. By all
means, you should also seek information from other sources. I will let
you know what the national board decides to do.
Sincerely yours,
Jamal Mazrui
--
Uucp: ..!{decvax,oliveb}!bunker!hcap!hnews!129!89.0!Jamal.Mazrui
Internet: Jamal.Mazrui@p0.f89.n129.z1.fidonet.orgDanny.Keys@p0.f5.n119.z1.fidonet.org (Danny Keys) (12/05/90)
Index Number: 12254
[This is from the Blink Talk Conference]
I was just thinking about joining the federation, but not now.
We as blind persons should be able to work together toward one goal, and
that will never take place as long as an organization like the
Federation dictates what we should beleive and not beleive.
I was hoping that just mabey the federation was changing, but now I
realize that that isn't ever going to be.
--
Uucp: ..!{decvax,oliveb}!bunker!hcap!hnews!119!5.0!Danny.Keys
Internet: Danny.Keys@p0.f5.n119.z1.fidonet.orgWalter.Siren@p18.f5.n396.z1.fidonet.org (Walter Siren) (12/05/90)
Index Number: 12258
[This is from the Blink Talk Conference]
Well, I am sorry to hear that about you being expelled from the
NFB. I will have to say that I am not surprised. This sort of
thing has been going on since about 1959. Now you know how the ACB
came to be borne. My whole state would have been kicked out back
then if we had not beat them to it. That is one reason why the ACB
has been growing so fast in the past few years.
Well, Jamal, it is a shame it has to be that way. I am sure that
the NFB has caused some good to be done, and I will admit that, but
I could not belong to an organization which will not let me speak
my peace.
Maybe we will see you in Tampa this summer.
Walter
--
Uucp: ..!{decvax,oliveb}!bunker!hcap!hnews!396!5.18!Walter.Siren
Internet: Walter.Siren@p18.f5.n396.z1.fidonet.orgScott.Howell@f521.n109.z1.fidonet.org (Scott Howell) (12/05/90)
Index Number: 12260 [This is from the Blink Talk Conference] >To: All > >Friends, I wish you all to know that the National Federation of the Blind >is today seeking to pass a motion at a national board meeting to expel me >as a member. The reason is views I expressed that were not party line >concerning some of the procedures of the scholarship committee and the >insufficient priorty given to combatting unemployment of the blind versus >fighting for the right of blind people to sit in the exit rows of airplanes. > >As many of you know I have been a dedicated member of this organization for >a decade. It is truly shocking, saddening, and painful to see this >campaign to expel me because I have thought for myself as to the best First of all I am very, very sorry to hear what has happend. However, I would at this time like to say that I am not going to sit here and discredit NFB, but I will say that first the members I have had contact with have been very pushy. I won't mention the names, but I worked at a college a few years back and the director of Handicapped Afairs gave this NFB member my home phone with out my permission. I was very angry and of course the college took k action and they even acted as if I were wrong for getting so bent out of shape. Then for several months this nfb person called and called trying to get me to attend there meetings saying they would get transpo etc and I kept saying nicely no. They got very nasty after the second or so time and finally they just gave up. Also I know another member who I saw at the college and this person was a member of nfb and they went about beating their chest and yelling blind rights all the hell over the place and generally made people rather hostile toward themselves. Now I am not saying all nfb members are loud, nasty, pushy, etc, but nfb has always been known for their outspoken manner and from what I know and have seen I am not surprised. It would seem that an organization like nfb doesn't like people who rock the boat especially when they can think on their own and voice their opinions. I am aloud my views so here it is. Nfb is an organization with very radical ideas and policies, they don't like those who rock the boat, they have some good ideas, but execute them in a very pour manner and do nothing more than attrack attention to the blind and really make people notice their "handicap". Now don't jump on me because your views are your rights. Thanks had to get that off my chest. I wish you the best of luck. Scott Howell -- Uucp: ..!{decvax,oliveb}!bunker!hcap!hnews!109!521!Scott.Howell Internet: Scott.Howell@f521.n109.z1.fidonet.org
Tom.Gerhart@f210.n273.z1.fidonet.org (Tom Gerhart) (12/05/90)
Index Number: 12287
[This is from the Blink Talk Conference]
Jamal,
We who have been expelled salute you, you have become a member of a
very fine class of people. tom G.
--
Uucp: ..!{decvax,oliveb}!bunker!hcap!hnews!273!210!Tom.Gerhart
Internet: Tom.Gerhart@f210.n273.z1.fidonet.orgTom.Gerhart@f210.n273.z1.fidonet.org (Tom Gerhart) (12/05/90)
Index Number: 12292
[This is from the Blink Talk Conference]
Jamal,
As one who has been where you are now let me just say that the rightness
or wrongness of the situation really does not matter. The facts of the
situation also do not matter. If Dr. Jernigan and the state president
want you to disappear, then you are gone. If you think that you will be
given a public hearing on this matter you will be disappointed. My
wife and I were expelled about three or so years ago and as Tandy is
fond of saying, " there is life after the nfb." the best thing for
you to do is to continue to work to improve the lives of blind people as
best you can and put all of this behind you as soon as possible. I know
that is easier said than done but you will be much happier when you do.
Good luck and if we can be of any help to you just leave a mesg. tom G
--
Uucp: ..!{decvax,oliveb}!bunker!hcap!hnews!273!210!Tom.Gerhart
Internet: Tom.Gerhart@f210.n273.z1.fidonet.orgSteve.Gomes@f810.n104.z1.fidonet.org (Steve Gomes) (12/05/90)
Index Number: 12297
[This is from the Blink Talk Conference]
hi steve since dialog is dead what magazine do you suggest I read. I
like reading braille so it has to be in braille. See ya soon
--
Uucp: ..!{decvax,oliveb}!bunker!hcap!hnews!104!810!Steve.Gomes
Internet: Steve.Gomes@f810.n104.z1.fidonet.orgStew.Bowden@f6.n377.z1.fidonet.org (Stew Bowden) (12/05/90)
Index Number: 12306
[This is from the Blink Talk Conference]
Hello: sorry to meet you under these circumstances, but frankly, I am
not surprised. Any organization dominated by a special few who set
their own rules is usually not worth the paper it's written on. I
have deliberately stayed out of those organizations because I believe
that Unfortunately, many who join them have them as their only social
outlet, and I have more social life than ican handle. If I were you,
I would continue to fight for what I believe in, and go your own way.
You don't really need an organization to stand up for your
convictions. Sorry for the pain it has caused you, but I just don't
believe any organization which would consider expultion under those
shabby circumstances, is worth getting worked up over.
--
Uucp: ..!{decvax,oliveb}!bunker!hcap!hnews!377!6!Stew.Bowden
Internet: Stew.Bowden@f6.n377.z1.fidonet.orgGrant.Downey@p0.f9.n381.z1.fidonet.org (Grant Downey) (12/07/90)
Index Number: 12386
[This is from the Blink Talk Conference]
I'm very sorry to hear of your pending expulsion, but Scott I'm not
surprised. I was a dedicated worker and member of the NFB from 1976 to
1987 and though I wasn't expelled at a formal level, it was made clear
to me bythe powers that be of the stat of Louisiana affiliate that it
would be best that I resign. I never had any problems with the
National level but what goes at the top goes with the affiliates so if
I'd not resigned voluntarely it would have happened anyway. As you
said the NFB has no tolerence for views that don't strictly follow the
party line of the politician who is in power. The NFB claims to be an
organization established to help the blind of this nation and the world
but what they don't say is thatmembers had better follow the political
whims to theletter. Grant
--
Uucp: ..!{decvax,oliveb}!bunker!hcap!hnews!381!9.0!Grant.Downey
Internet: Grant.Downey@p0.f9.n381.z1.fidonet.orgCharles.Crawford@p0.f460.n101.z1.fidonet.org (Charles Crawford) (12/07/90)
Index Number: 12393
[This is from the Blink Talk Conference]
So let me add my two cents to this issue. There's clearly a need
for blind folks to organize around issues of importance to the
class. While I think it not appropriate for me as a public manager
to be involved with an organization as a member, I was very active
in the ACB and was one of the founding fathers of the Massachusetts
affiliate..
If the issue were the existence of organizations to simply address
social needs, then I would agree that they would be only one option
within many for those purposes. I do think I benefited from my
experience personally from the good friends and great debates, but
I am convinced that the all organizations have made real
contributions to the quality of life we enjoy.
--
Uucp: ..!{decvax,oliveb}!bunker!hcap!hnews!101!460.0!Charles.Crawford
Internet: Charles.Crawford@p0.f460.n101.z1.fidonet.orgDaveed.Mandell@p0.f460.n101.z1.fidonet.org (Daveed Mandell) (12/07/90)
Index Number: 12394
[This is from the Blink Talk Conference]
Without either of the organization, the blind would be far worse
off now than we are. Collective actions is always better than an
individual fighting alone. Much of NFB's philosophy is very much
part of the civil-rights tradition of this country, and shoudln't
be beilittled. Pity this philosophy has been ill-used by the
organization, but many organizations have power problems.
--Daveed-
--
Uucp: ..!{decvax,oliveb}!bunker!hcap!hnews!101!460.0!Daveed.Mandell
Internet: Daveed.Mandell@p0.f460.n101.z1.fidonet.orgWalter.Siren@p18.f5.n396.z1.fidonet.org (Walter Siren) (01/11/91)
Index Number: 12882
GD> How you missed it I don't know but I'm sure enough not with the NFB any
GD> more nor do I have planns to ever join again. I got burned big time. When
GD> you give as much of ones self as I did and then get burned in the end it
GD> leaves a reall bitter after taste.
Wel, I can understand that. You just fell into the fate as a lot of others.
It is rather strange that they don't want those they expell to talk
about it openly. They want them to just take it and walk away or
nuckle down to there desires. They don't want them to talk about
it because they cannot come up with any logical answers.
Walter
--
Uucp: ..!{decvax,oliveb}!bunker!hcap!hnews!396!5.18!Walter.Siren
Internet: Walter.Siren@p18.f5.n396.z1.fidonet.orgGrant.Downey@p0.f89.n129.z1.fidonet.org (Grant Downey) (01/15/91)
Index Number: 12940
[This is from the Blink Talk Conference]
You are right on that one. However it might be put this way.
The NFB feels they have to dish it out to members but they can't
take it. Grant
--
Uucp: ..!{decvax,oliveb}!bunker!hcap!hnews!129!89.0!Grant.Downey
Internet: Grant.Downey@p0.f89.n129.z1.fidonet.orgAl.Hoffman@p0.f143.n109.z1.fidonet.org (Al Hoffman) (01/23/91)
Index Number: 13155
[This is from the Blink Talk Conference]
Hi Again Grant:
I really must stop reading this NFB stuff, it just irritates me to
read the outpouring of information that I more or less knew already but
decided to ignore for my own emotional calmness. I am now fighting the
urge to use nasty words in reference to groups with similar practices of
the NFB (fight fight fight). When I get on this subject I probablly
make some people mad by saying things that hit home, and I really hate
making people mad unless I'm there personally to supervise my own
enjoyment of the persecution of an idiot. Anyway, the sad thing about
all the NFB uproar is that the opportunity for real future progress is
slipping away, at least a solid obvious opportunity. I don't feel the
ACB is active enough to cause real progress, but can't back that up with
any facts--just my feeling.
Then again, there always is one way to solve this problem of stupid
misguided management at the top, vote them out, organize effectively
against them, the whole democratic deal. But I for one ain't gonna
waste my time on them. My support to anyone who wants the task though!
--
Uucp: ..!{decvax,oliveb}!bunker!hcap!hnews!109!143.0!Al.Hoffman
Internet: Al.Hoffman@p0.f143.n109.z1.fidonet.orgGrant.Downey@p0.f9.n381.z1.fidonet.org (Grant Downey) (01/23/91)
Index Number: 13160
Well I'm ready to join ACB when there is a viable chapter and as a
[This is from the Blink Talk Conference]
member at large for the time being. I have areal desire to be a part
of an organization of that type. from my perspective the ACB has
leadership that seems to have their heads about them and are guiding
members in the right direction. I'm not surprised that a lot of old NFB
members are turning up in ACB it doesn't surprise me a bit.
By the way I forgot to add in the previous message to you how's Don
Banning doing? Is he still trying to revive that New Orleans chapter?
Is he still teaching? Tell him and Jewel howdy ifyou run into them.
Thanks! Grant
--
Uucp: ..!{decvax,oliveb}!bunker!hcap!hnews!381!9.0!Grant.Downey
Internet: Grant.Downey@p0.f9.n381.z1.fidonet.orgGrant.Downey@p0.f9.n381.z1.fidonet.org (Grant Downey) (01/23/91)
Index Number: 13169
[This is from the Blink Talk Conference]
Well Al, I see it this way! We as individuals have to do as much as we
posibly can to help ourselves and our fellow blind. Maybe it's
changing a local law, a state law, maybe it's helping a new dog guide,
maybe it's jumping all over the local transportation system for the
handicapped, you get my drift. If we don't take initiative then things
will always stay the same. There are issues where we have to band
together such as the airlines, the issues concerning Vending Operators,
Lighthouse workers, discrimination on the National level whatever it
may be. Right now the NFB seems to be on a course of internal struggle
with its own so it seems to me that the best organization going with
the best leadership at the present time is A CB. This who080628All this
about the NFB upsets me to and gets me going but thereis work to be
done and however it can get done is the important thing. Grant
--
Uucp: ..!{decvax,oliveb}!bunker!hcap!hnews!381!9.0!Grant.Downey
Internet: Grant.Downey@p0.f9.n381.z1.fidonet.orgWilliam.Wilson@f89.n129.z1.fidonet.org (William Wilson) (02/05/91)
Index Number: 13401
[This is from the Blink Talk Conference]
DA> The vending machines which the NFB is placing around the
DA> country dispense gum balls, peanuts etc. These are small
DA> change items which certainly aren't going to threaten the
DA> income of any blind vendor. This is another case of mis-
DA> information and everyone assuming the worst about the NFB!
David,
Excuse me, but why do you say this is misinformation???
Frankly, I've tried to remain as neutral in this whole NFB thing as
possible, but Grant's saying that the NFB is putting vending machines in
the same buildings as vending stand operators, and that it would affect
the incomes of those vending machine operators, can't possibly be
referred to as "misinformation", because by your own response to him, I
can see it is a fact!
You don't seem to be catching all the mail here anymore, but I
believe Loretta Trees just left a message describing her operation of a
"Dry Stand", in which she handles exactly the type of items you say are
present in the NFB machines! Even if it wern't for this fact, how can
you possibly be so presumptious as to judge what is and what is not a
substantial portion of a vending stand operators income!!! For some
reason, I can see the NFB position to be just the opposite if it were
they who ran the vending stands and someone came into their domain with
machines!!! Then I would guess the cry would be "a single penny taken
from our operator's hands is too much!"
Then again David, I don't ever expect to see a loyal NFB member to
post here that the NFB may have made a mistake, nor does anyone else I
bet. That's ok, and actually, I appreciate the loyalty the NFB seems to
continue to be able to foster in its membership, but for sure, the
tactic of attaching words like "misinformation" to anything disagreeing
with NFB policy isn't going to work here to camoflouge the truth!
Willie
... BlinkTalk, Dr. Deb and Silver in Pittsburgh!
--
Uucp: ..!{decvax,oliveb}!bunker!hcap!hnews!129!89!William.Wilson
Internet: William.Wilson@f89.n129.z1.fidonet.orgGrant.Downey@p0.f9.n381.z1.fidonet.org (Grant Downey) (02/05/91)
Index Number: 13417
[This is from the Blink Talk Conference]
David I certainly appreciate your stonch defense of the NFB and what it
stands for. There was a time I would have said the same types of
things. It is a fact that the NFB has done great things for the blind
of this country and if it weren't for the NFB many theings that benefit
the blind would have happened much more slowely or maybe not at all.
However I think you should appreciate the fact that many of the people
including myself who are complaining about the NFB expulsion tactics
are those people who have put in a lot of time, energy, and divotion to
what they believe in. In my case I gave it my all, and I mean all if I
wasn't working I was doing NFB stuff. For a new president to be
elected as happened in our state affiliate, Louisiana, at the timeI'm
referring to and this new Presideit came in and vertually distroyed the
chapter I'd worked sohard to build up and though I had an excellent
record of work formany years I was 58removed from my duties because I
reazisted changes that I didn't feel were right. No I wasn't expelled
but I may as well of been. Besides my own case there are dozens and
dozens more. For all that the NFB does that is good and it is a lot it
seems to be a big balack mark on the NFB when people know about its
internal ways of dealing with people it feels that are out of line.
There seems to be somuch of this negative diciplinary junk going on
that it appears that the orgizational focus is way out of kilter.
Where there is smoke there is fire and there seems to be a bad one
somewhere in the organization. Grant
--
Uucp: ..!{decvax,oliveb}!bunker!hcap!hnews!381!9.0!Grant.Downey
Internet: Grant.Downey@p0.f9.n381.z1.fidonet.orgWilliam.Wilson@f89.n129.z1.fidonet.org (William Wilson) (02/05/91)
Index Number: 13452
[This is from the Blink Talk Conference]
GP> Do you think that people will believe that you and I
GP> didn't coordinate our two messages on this matter? Just
GP> think, I almost killed mine. ---
Gary,
I think it is about time we come clean here and tell the
participants a little about yours and my private conversations about
this NFB matter, and things expressed in the echo in general...
Gary and I, ladies and gentlemen, come from quite different
perspectives on most topics discussed here, or at least, originally did!
These include things like national party politics, speech software and
board programs, and yes, even the NFB! We have, however, both modified
our opinions on all these things, largely as a result of what we've read
here! The one thing that I think Gary and I have shared from day 1 is
that we read the messages quite intently, or at least the ones in the
threads that are obviously appropriate for the echo, and we try our best
to remain non-bias as we read!
Well, I think this is why we are both rather upset that David has
chosen to defend the NFB in the manner he has, meaning saying there is
an anti NFB tone to the echo, or saying misinformation is being passed
on here, etc. I honestly just havn't heard much in the way of a good
rebuttal to what at times are very sound questions about the NFB,
despite the fact I am listening even closer than ever for one! I am
familiar enough with you David, and some of the other NFB members who
have participated here, to know that you are capable of discussing
problems with the NFB in a good fashion, but in order to do that, you
would have to admit to there being problems in the NFB, and frankly, it
is beginning to look more and more as if being a loyal Federationist
means you just can't do that! David, neither Gary or I are members of
the ACB, so indeed, we owe no loyalties in these matters. As a matter
of fact, we are members of different national political parties, and yet
we've not only been able to discuss issues in which our political
parties differ dramatically, we've managed to take a little from each
and come out with not only a slightly different opinion on both ends,
still friends!
Sure David, the Jim Jones analogies and such thrown at the NFB hurt
you, I am sure, and you will note that I intentionally don't respond to
them, but this is more due to my respect for you and my not wanting to
add to your disgruntled feelings than to imply that they are ludicrous!
I knew all along that the NFB thread was bound to cause problems for
some here, but for sure, it is one of the most appropriate things being
discussed here at the moment! If indeed there is "misinformation" being
propogated via the echo, point it out, but don't use that claim to avoid
answering some of the quite valid questions that have come up concerning
the NFB. I, for one, would like to hear some REAL answers to the
questions of democracy and such, cause like I said, my ears and mind are
still open!
Willie
... BlinkTalk, Dr. Deb and Silver in Pittsburgh!
--
Uucp: ..!{decvax,oliveb}!bunker!hcap!hnews!129!89!William.Wilson
Internet: William.Wilson@f89.n129.z1.fidonet.orgDavid.Andrews@f89.n129.z1.fidonet.org (David Andrews) (02/05/91)
Index Number: 13460
[This is from the Blink Talk Conference]
/ DA>> The vending machines which the NFB is placing around the
DA>> country dispense gum balls, peanuts etc. These are small
DA>> change items which certainly aren't going to threaten the
DA>> income of any blind vendor. This is another case of mis-
DA>> information and everyone assuming the worst about the NFB!
WW> David,
WW> Excuse me, but why do you say this is misinformation???
WW> Frankly, I've tried to remain as neutral in this whole NFB
WW> thing as possible, but Grant's saying that the NFB is
WW> putting vending machines in the same buildings as vending
WW> stand operators, and that it would affect the incomes of those
WW> vending machine operators, can't possibly be referred to as
WW> "misinformation", because by your own response to him, I can
WW> see it is a fact! You don't seem to be catching all the mail
WW> here anymore, but I believe Loretta Trees just left a message
WW> describing her operation of a "Dry Stand", in which she
WW> handles exactly the type of items you say are present in the
WW> NFB machines! Even if it wern't for this fact, how can you
WW> possibly be so presumptious as to judge what is and what is
WW> not a substantial portion of a vending stand operators
WW> income!!! For some reason, I can see the NFB position to be
WW> just the opposite if it were they who ran the vending stands
WW> and someone came into their domain with machines!!! Then I
WW> would guess the cry would be "a single penny taken from our
WW> operator's hands is too much!"
WW> Then again David, I don't ever expect to see a loyal NFB
WW> member to post here that the NFB may have made a mistake, nor
WW> does anyone else I bet. That's ok, and actually, I appreciate
WW> the loyalty the NFB seems to continue to be able to foster in
WW> its membership, but for sure, the tactic of attaching words
WW> like "misinformation" to anything disagreeing with NFB policy
WW> isn't going to work here to camoflouge the truth!
Willie, I think to a certain extent we both are making different assumptions
which are widening the distance between our points. The machines which are
installed on our behalf are ones where you put in a coin and receive a few
peanuts or M&M's into your hand directly. They are not regular candy machines
that dispense a wide variety of pre-packaged candy. You say that I am
presumptuous making assumptions about what is a major portion of someone's
income. Maybe so, but I find it difficult to believe that this machine would
threaten a blind vendor. Secondly, every vendor signs an agreement to operate
in a given location which specifies what kinds of activities can go on in the
building, other vending machines, etc. I believe that our machines are placed
and operated by commercial vending machine companies. They should of course go
through proper channels, and if they haven't, then the machines shopuld be
removed. You and others seem to be implying that the NFB is directly going in
and threatening the income of blind vendors. I don't believe that this is the
case.
... Your Sound Alternative
--
Uucp: ..!{decvax,oliveb}!bunker!hcap!hnews!129!89!David.Andrews
Internet: David.Andrews@f89.n129.z1.fidonet.orgDavid.Andrews@f89.n129.z1.fidonet.org (David Andrews) (02/05/91)
Index Number: 13461
[This is from the Blink Talk Conference]
GD> There seems to be somuch
GD> of this negative diciplinary junk going on that it appears that
GD> the orgizational focus is way out of kilter. Where there is
GD> smoke there is fire and there seems to be a bad one somewhere
GD> in the organization. Grant
Grant, Most of the smoke seems to be coming from nonfederationists. The only
expulsion that I know of last year was Jamal. To read the Echo, one might think
that this is all that the NFB does. This just isn't the case.
... Your Sound Alternative
--
Uucp: ..!{decvax,oliveb}!bunker!hcap!hnews!129!89!David.Andrews
Internet: David.Andrews@f89.n129.z1.fidonet.orgWilliam.Wilson@f89.n129.z1.fidonet.org (William Wilson) (02/05/91)
Index Number: 13478
GP> suspect the reason we can get along has to do with a core
GP> value common to both of us. We both believe that
GP> communication which furthers the truth, even an unpleasant
GP> truth where necessary, has its place as long as good will
GP> exists between communicating parties. That means that there
GP> are no "in" groups here, and no "out" groups here and that
GP> what we want is for all sides to have a place where they can
GP> come to get opinions and information, and, especially, where
GP> they can get help in sorting out the two.
Gary,
Somehow, it makes me feel quite comfortable knowing I have Gary
Petraccaro and not Dan Quaill as my sidekick!
Now then, you got a copy of the Ten Commandments of Blinkdom, don't
you? Well, you find a place to squeeze your above quoted lines into
them, ok?
Willie
... BlinkTalk, Dr. Deb and Silver in Pittsburgh!
--
Uucp: ..!{decvax,oliveb}!bunker!hcap!hnews!129!89!William.Wilson
Internet: William.Wilson@f89.n129.z1.fidonet.orgWalter.Siren@p18.f5.n396.z1.fidonet.org (Walter Siren) (02/05/91)
Index Number: 13479
[This is from the Blink Talk Conference]
DA> Willie, I think to a certain extent we both are making different
DA> assumptions
DA> which are widening the distance between our points. The machines which are
DA> installed on our behalf are ones where you put in a coin and receive a few
DA> peanuts or M&M's into your hand directly. They are not regular candy
DA> machines
DA> that dispense a wide variety of pre-packaged candy.
Dave you can say that it is a small part of a vendor's income.
Well, I ran a stand where now one of those machines had been put.
Now remember this, that each person in the building has a certain
amount of money that they can or will spend for those trivia items,
and what goes into those machines go into the pocket of the vending
machine company, and the NFB, and not in the pocket of the vending
stand opperator. All of those little amounts are what go together
to make up an opperator's income. I am speaking from personal
experience, and I know how much that can effect an opperator's
income. if you let one vending company in against the opperator,
as I am sure that the NFB well knows, that opens the door for the
others. You know, you get a foot in the door, and bye bye.
DA> You say that I am presumptuous making assumptions about what is a major portion of someone's
DA> income. Maybe so, but I find it difficult to believe that this machine
DA> would
DA> threaten a blind vendor. Secondly, every vendor signs an agreement to
DA> operate
DA> in a given location which specifies what kinds of activities can go on in
A vending machine is not in business for it's health, if it does
not take in enough money to pay for it's existance, they would
remove it.
DA> building, other vending machines, etc. I believe that our machines are
DA> placed
DA> and operated by commercial vending machine companies. They should of
DA> course go
DA> through proper channels, and if they haven't, then the machines shopuld be
DA> removed. You and others seem to be implying that the NFB is directly going
DA> in
DA> and threatening the income of blind vendors. I don't believe that this is
DA> the
DA> case.
Believe it or not. Naturally you won't believe that the flawless
NFB won't do any wrong, but I am affraid at this time, we have the
evidence that they have. Whether you want to beleive it or not,
they did not consult the management of that building to put there
machine in, and they were told to remove it, and they thought that
they would be cagy, and put it on another floor, but it still was
discovered, and locked up in a closet. This particullar opperator
has all vending rights to this building, and no vending machine is
suppose to go in there except through the opperator.
Blame it on the vending companies if you wish, but the NFB is the
one who contracted with those companies, and therefore is
responsible.
As Willie said, if the shoe were on the other foot, the NFB would
be screaming loud, and well they should.
Now, don't tell us that we have misinformation, because we have the
facts, and you should get them also.
Walter
--
Uucp: ..!{decvax,oliveb}!bunker!hcap!hnews!396!5.18!Walter.Siren
Internet: Walter.Siren@p18.f5.n396.z1.fidonet.orgWalter.Siren@p18.f5.n396.z1.fidonet.org (Walter Siren) (02/05/91)
Index Number: 13480
[This is from the Blink Talk Conference]
DA> Grant, Most of the smoke seems to be coming from nonfederationists.
Yeah, but you all are being blinded by the smoke.
DA> expulsion that I know of last year was Jamal. To read the Echo, one might
DA> think
DA> that this is all that the NFB does. This just isn't the case.
Hey go back and look at the NFB'S record of expulsions, go back to
1958 up till now, if you are not affraid to. I think that it will
speak for itself.
Hey, I am not saying that the NFB does not do some good. I know
that it has, but it is a shame that it has these downfalls. I know
that everyone in NFB does not aggree with some of these actions of
the NFB, and I have some good friends in the NFB, but I must call
it as I see it. I hope that you never get expelled, but a lot of
the other big boys in there thought it would never happen to them
either. They took and overlooked untill they could not take it
anymore, and left.
I don't think that there was any more faithful and harder worker
for the NFB then Grant was, and that is why I was so surprised when
I found out that he was no longer in NFB. We never did discuss the
NFB and the ACB because we new that we were on opposite sides of
the fence, and we did not want that to interfear with our
friendship.
Walter
--
Uucp: ..!{decvax,oliveb}!bunker!hcap!hnews!396!5.18!Walter.Siren
Internet: Walter.Siren@p18.f5.n396.z1.fidonet.orgGary.Petraccaro@f90.n129.z1.fidonet.org (Gary Petraccaro) (02/06/91)
Index Number: 13523
[This is from the Blink Talk Conference]
David,
I think that there is also the question of the spirit of the activity.
We've heard the phrase "appearance of a conflict of interest" fairly often
of late especially in conjunction with governmental activities.
Well, it seems that the NFB couldn't care less about appearances as
long as it can bring in the cash. I remember a portion of a movie called.
8 MEN OUT. It dealt with the 1919 Black Sox scandal. In that movie
Charlie Commisky, "Black Sox" owner, had a certain conversation
with one of his pitchers, Eddie Seacott (not sure about
spelling). That pitcher wanted to know about the status of a
$10000 bonus his contract called for should he have won 30 games.
Here's what happens. Commisky asks a subordinate how
many games the pitcher won. He's told "29". He turns to the pitcher and
says, "29 isn't 30, now, is it?" The pitcher says that orders
came down to sit him down for two weeks in August. He says that
he could certainly have won two more games during that amount of
time. You can guess what Commisky said. The good of the team,
blah-blah-blah, the letter of the contract,
blah-blah-blah, and, though he didn't say it, you could almost
hear him say "Prove it", blah-blah-blah. If the NFB perports to be concerned about the
handicapped, shouldn't it take more than merely the usual precautions not
to jeopardize any handicapped individuals well-being? Shouldn't
it at least make an attempt to rise above the like of Charlie
Commisky, and, of course, his modernday counterparts like Charlie
Finly?
--
Uucp: ..!{decvax,oliveb}!bunker!hcap!hnews!129!90!Gary.Petraccaro
Internet: Gary.Petraccaro@f90.n129.z1.fidonet.orgWilliam.Wilson@f89.n129.z1.fidonet.org (William Wilson) (02/06/91)
Index Number: 13533
[This is from the Blink Talk Conference]
DA>> building, other vending machines, etc. I believe that our machines are
DA>> placed
DA>> and operated by commercial vending machine companies. They should of
DA>> course go
DA>> through proper channels, and if they haven't, then the machines shopuld be
DA>> removed. You and others seem to be implying that the NFB is directly going
DA>> in
DA>> and threatening the income of blind vendors. I don't believe that this is
DA>> the
DA>> case.
Walter,
You gave an excellent response to David's message about this
vending machine thing, but now with a good night's sleep under my belt,
I'm ready to abandon my one night self imposed clam-up on this NFB thing
and point out a few things more:
David, why is it you and the other NFB members consistantly tell us
what we are implying and thinking? I, for one, never said that the NFB
was intentionally going after blind vending stand operators with their
machines, and most definately didn't mean to imply it! If there was any
implication in my message, it was that the NFB wanted to make a few
bucks for distributing peanuts, and they didn't look beyond their noses
as to how it could affect the personal income of a blind person in the
process! Further, you say that the vending machines are supplied by
regular vending machine companies, merely being contracted by the NFB,
so this practice is subject to normal rules of the building, so ok.
Well, excuse me, but isn't the NFB in the business of exposing unjust
laws and rules and fighting against them! How in the world can you use
this line of argument to suggest it is fine for the NFB to contract a
vending machine in the same building as a blind vending stand
operator???
Finally, I know you are upset by the way some people are claiming
that you will never say a word contrary to the NFB philosophy, and I
have done my best to avoid doing so myself, but holy smoke, don't you
see why they would come to that conclusion??? I honestly am not trying
to be an anti-NFB person, just as I am trying to not be a pro-ACB
person, but at least in my mind, the credibility of the NFB would be
increased if just once I saw some questioning of their policy by good,
loyal members such as yourself! As soon as I find an organization of
over 2 people that I agree 100% with, not only will I become a loyal
member, I'll give up all my personal goals just to help accomplish the
goals of the organization! This isn't going to happen though, simply
because there is still not a National Willie Wilson Clone Federation!
And oh yeah, anticipating your response, I understand why it would
not be in the best interests of any organization to show public
disapproval of its policy in a forum such as this where many people form
opinions of the organization, but couldn't you even show us just a sign
that some of us are causing you to think a little about these issues?
Willie
... BlinkTalk, Dr. Deb and Silver in Pittsburgh!
--
Uucp: ..!{decvax,oliveb}!bunker!hcap!hnews!129!89!William.Wilson
Internet: William.Wilson@f89.n129.z1.fidonet.orgGary.Petraccaro@f90.n129.z1.fidonet.org (Gary Petraccaro) (02/06/91)
Index Number: 13534
[This is from the Blink Talk Conference]
Serious reply, this time. I figure that I'm about played out on this
NFB thread. I've said all I think necessary and it's going to be a while
before it needs saying again. Perhaps, that won't be for quite a while.
Talk to you all later.
--
Uucp: ..!{decvax,oliveb}!bunker!hcap!hnews!129!90!Gary.Petraccaro
Internet: Gary.Petraccaro@f90.n129.z1.fidonet.orgGary.Petraccaro@f90.n129.z1.fidonet.org (Gary Petraccaro) (02/06/91)
Index Number: 13536
[This is from the Blink Talk Conference]
-> In a message to Grant Downey <01-20-91 20:41> David Andrews wrote:
->
-> DA> nonfederationists. The only
-> DA> expulsion that I know of last year was Jamal. To read the
-> DA> Echo, one might think
-> DA> that this is all that the NFB does. This just isn't the
-> DA> case.
Do you have any records you could send to one of us for examination
which would list who was expelled and for what? Apparently you
don't care for the hearsay of others, surely, this should be your
golden opportunity to set an example of probity?
--
Uucp: ..!{decvax,oliveb}!bunker!hcap!hnews!129!90!Gary.Petraccaro
Internet: Gary.Petraccaro@f90.n129.z1.fidonet.orgGrant.Downey@p0.f89.n129.z1.fidonet.org (Grant Downey) (02/06/91)
Index Number: 13547
[This is from the Blink Talk Conference]
This past year I've not heard of any others eather. However it
just takes one! just one and that can bring out the frustration,
anger, and hurt of federationists who have been wrongly done in
the past. I'm in no way saying that is fare but I'm saying that
is what happens. It does bother me however that the little guy
"worker" gets romped on and the people who have done the
expelling end up in officer and board positions year after year.
There is always a posative side to everything though. At least
in this country we hve the right to agree, disagree, and voice
our thoughts and opinions without reprisals. Unfortunately
others are not quite as fortunate. Grant
--
Uucp: ..!{decvax,oliveb}!bunker!hcap!hnews!129!89.0!Grant.Downey
Internet: Grant.Downey@p0.f89.n129.z1.fidonet.orgDavid.Andrews@f89.n129.z1.fidonet.org (David Andrews) (02/06/91)
Index Number: 13582
[This is from the Blink Talk Conference]
DA> I believe that our machines are
DA>>> placed
DA>>> and operated by commercial vending machine companies. They should of
DA>>> course go
DA>>> through proper channels, and if they haven't, then the machines shopuld
be
DA>>> removed.
WW> Well, excuse me, but isn't the NFB in the business of exposing
WW> unjust laws and rules and fighting against them! How in the
WW> world can you use this line of argument to suggest it is fine
WW> for the NFB to contract a vending machine in the same building
WW> as a blind vending stand operator???
Now you are telling me how I should think and react to an issue.
Willie: What are unjust laws and rules. That is a subjective decision. Yes,
it would be unfair for anyone to install a full line of vending machines in a
building where there was a blind vendor. However, is one gumball type machine
unfair? Probably not. Yes, a vendor has the right to expect an even playing
field, but it is also unreasonable to expect him/her to have an absolute
monopoly on any food activity in the building. Would you have absolutely no
coffee made in any office. How about not allowing people to bring in bag
lunches. Yes, I am exaggerating a little to make a point, but I also think that
the magnitude of the NFB sponsored machines we have been talking about and
their impact on a vendor's income.
WW> Finally, I know you are
WW> upset by the way some people are claiming that you will never
WW> say a word contrary to the NFB philosophy, and I have done my
WW> best to avoid doing so myself, but holy smoke, don't you see
WW> why they would come to that conclusion??? I honestly am not
WW> trying to be an anti-NFB person, just as I am trying to not be
WW> a pro-ACB person, but at least in my mind, the credibility of
WW> the NFB would be increased if just once I saw some questioning
WW> of their policy by good, loyal members such as yourself! As
WW> soon as I find an organization of over 2 people that I agree
WW> 100% with, not only will I become a loyal member, I'll give up
WW> all my personal goals just to help accomplish the goals of the
WW>Willie, I do think a lot about what the NFB does, and how it does it. I
don't agree with everything, but I do agree with much more then I disagree with.
Each person has to decide for him/herself what he/she is comfortable and
uncomfortable with. I will remain a loyal member as long as I agree with more
then I disagree with! I know what the NFB has done for me and for all blind
people and I am not willing to give that up. Yes, Jamal disagreed, and he has
the right to disagree with the organization. It is my belief, (note that this
is not an official NFB opinion, although the President might agree), that Jamal
disagreed in ways that were destructive to the organization. You have only
heard Jamal's side of the story. There is a history here, it didn't happen
overnight. Someone will then say, tell us about it? It is my guess that Mr.
Maurer does not wish to drag out past issues and publicly cause problems to
Jamal. Some will put a different interpretation on it, saying we are Communists
or whatever. So be it. People can always find things to support their beliefs,
you and I both.
Finally, you of course will never find an organization you will agree with 100
percent, unless you control it absolutely.
... Your Sound Alternative
--
Uucp: ..!{decvax,oliveb}!bunker!hcap!hnews!129!89!David.Andrews
Internet: David.Andrews@f89.n129.z1.fidonet.orgGrant.Downey@p0.f9.n381.z1.fidonet.org (Grant Downey) (03/14/91)
Index Number: 13906
[This is from the Blink Talk Conference]
Illiam, I can't respond as elequantly as the writing of your message,
but when I hear what David says about the NFB I can identify with
feeling that way myself. When I was an officer, board member of the
state, and really into it i took a simarly hard line approach when
stating my opinions about a position. I don't think I've dhanged that
much since I got out of the NFB but one I did learn from my NFB
experience is that you can't go wrong thinking for yourself, doing for
yourself, and not just following the party line. I take my experience
with NfB as a learning experience and I learned a lot and had many
experiences I never would have had if I'd not been a member. Every
organization has its good side and not so good as they are run byhuman
beings. The NFB is good at recruting new members and turning them into
or maybe more correctly sated encouraging them to become loyal members.
I can honestly say I've never been as loyal to any other organization
as I was tothe NFB during my time. I just never got that loyalty
returned by other officers but maybe it was good. If I was in the NFB
today likely as not I wouldn't be teaching people the basics of
Computing and running a Radio Reading Service but I'd be out blazing
ttrails. I guess I'm feeling old but my studeos and classroom make me
very happy. Grant
--
Uucp: ..!{decvax,oliveb}!bunker!hcap!hnews!381!9.0!Grant.Downey
Internet: Grant.Downey@p0.f9.n381.z1.fidonet.org