Fran.O'gorman@f94.n272.z1.fidonet.org (Fran O'gorman) (02/21/91)
Index Number: 13695
[This is from the Silent Talk Conference]
Hi Lana,
LB> Now that's neat! I have a friend who is at about the
LB> same level of signing ability as myself and we've found our
LB> (limited) skills handy for (A) Really annoying the other people
LB> at our table when we're at dinner at the Childrens camp we both
LB> work at and (B) a WONDERFUL way to communicate to each other
LB> when we're in a bar with LOUD music. ;-)
As I was telling Ann, it also used to come in handy for very
quietly reminding my daughter to behave in church (she hears but
cannot speak) I could even get very emphatic without having to
raise my voice. :-) Ya know, we both used the word 'handy'
here --I'm a confessed pun-lover <grin>
LB> I've found sign
LB> language very helpful for me in the various different jobs I
LB> hold.
Did you know that there's a movement afoot here in the US to make
ASL qualify as a foreign language substitute to fulfill the
foreign language requirement most states have to graduate from
High School? Useful and SO universal as you point out.
LB> First, every summer I work for a YMCA children's camp ..
LB> and starting last summer we hosted a DEAF CAMP which took place
LB> simontaneously with our regular camp programs.
Here in NY the Grange I believe (that's an organization for people
in agriculture --sort of fraternal I think) sponsor a camp wherein
a deaf child is paired with a hearing child for the week (or
weeks, not sure). By the end of the experience (knowing how kids
are such sponges for learning languages) the hearing child is
becoming a proficient signer and perhaps (not sure about this) the
deaf child might improve his speech reading skills too (?)
Anyway, their respective worlds are opened to the other and that's
the nicest part.
LB> Much to my suprise and pleasure the little boy knew a whole bunch
LB> of signs. We got on great! I almost always knew what he wanted
LB> and vice versa. Sign Language is great.. Good thing I'm taking
LB> more classes!
My Mary, who is more like him in that she hears, when she was
little, before she was formally being taught sign, began to make up
her own! It certainly seems like a natural thing --and again,
very universal.
--Fran
--
Uucp: ..!{decvax,oliveb}!bunker!hcap!hnews!272!94!Fran.O'gorman
Internet: Fran.O'gorman@f94.n272.z1.fidonet.orgFran.O'gorman@f94.n272.z1.fidonet.org (Fran O'gorman) (03/01/91)
Index Number: 13730
[This is from the Silent Talk Conference]
Hi Lana,
FO>>> Here in NY the Grange I believe (that's an organization for people
FO>>> in agriculture --sort of fraternal I think) sponsor a camp wherein
FO>>> a deaf child is paired with a hearing child for the week (or
FO>>> weeks, not sure). By the end of the experience (knowing how kids
LB> Wow.. that's kinda nifty, I know a good friend of mine is
LB> off to Malaysia for a few weeks this summer as a representitive
LB> of OUR camp regarding some sort of international conference on
LB> Deaf Camping or.. international Deaf Camps.. or something like
LB> that.. it should proove to be very interesting.. After seeing the
LB> the GREAT EXPERIENCE it was for both campers and staff at Our
LB> Deaf Camp last year I'm all for them!
I don't know how long you've been reading/getting silenttalk but
there's been an ongoing debate over sign vs. oralism and this idea
of 'deaf culture'. While I am big on sign as everyone here knows
(Annie are ya listenin'?) I think our moderator made a very good
point when she said that the deaf have historically kept very much
to themselves which isn't good (for them OR the hearing people I
might add). This was be due in large part to the existence of
deaf schools that were mostly sleep-away ones. I'm writing a
program that does sign graphically on the computer (it's a
tutorial called Sign Friends, perhaps you're familiar with it?)
and I had the darndest time finding a book that will show bus or
school bus. The residential schools had no need for one. The
parents drove them there and picked them up, or if public
transportation were used it'd be a train or plane I imagine.
Anyway the point I'm taking so long to make here is that this kind
of camp that brings hearing and nonhearing together when kids are
young, is just the ticket I think, to breaking down some of the
barriers that separate the two worlds. A kind of deaf culture
will exist with the existence of a particular language and the
very particular experience of deafness itself, but that such a
culture be not so exclusive and excluding is what I think would be
the best.
I'm definitely all for camps or whatever that bring people
together of varying life experiences! Kind of like this echo!
FO>>> My Mary, who is more like him in that she hears, when she was
FO>>> little, before she was formally being taught sign, began to make up
FO>>> her own! It certainly seems like a natural thing --and again,
FO>>> very universal.
LB> I believe that here in Canada Sign Language is a
LB> recognized second language for Universities as well as being a
LB> recognized 2nd for getting a job at Airports. :-)
So it sounds like sign is used ALOT there, huh? Interesting. Are
there any differences between the American version and the
Canadian that you're aware of?
--Fran
--
Uucp: ..!{decvax,oliveb}!bunker!hcap!hnews!272!94!Fran.O'gorman
Internet: Fran.O'gorman@f94.n272.z1.fidonet.orgJay.Croft@p0.f147.n109.z1.fidonet.org (Jay Croft) (03/01/91)
Index Number: 13736
Schools for deaf kids, particularly residential, MAY be factors in the
supposed isolation of deaf people--but for different reasons.
The education of deaf children is largely in the hands of people who
have never been deaf one day in their lives and never will be. Schools
for deaf children often have unwritten quotas on how many deaf people
will be on their staffs, and what they will be teaching.
So, the children are taught by people from a different culture and a
different outlook on life. The problem is made worse when sign language
is repressed or forbidden.
Children in so-called "mainstream" classes are isolated even worse,
right in the middle of all those hearing kids. Only 1% of mainstream
teachers are themselves deaf. Because these mainstream kids generally
go to day classes, once school lets out they go home and sit in front of
their television sets.
|James Womack (may his tribe increase!) would probably agree that
mainstream deaf kids often lack social skills because the kids have been
sitting in classrooms facing the teacher, and have little opportunity to
interact with each other and even with hearing children. And there is
little opportunity for them to participate in varsity sports unless the
deaf kid happens to be a very good athlete.
Residential schools serve a valuable function in many ways.
--
Uucp: ..!{decvax,oliveb}!bunker!hcap!hnews!109!147.0!Jay.Croft
Internet: Jay.Croft@p0.f147.n109.z1.fidonet.orgAnn.Stalnaker@p0.f14.n385.z1.fidonet.org (Ann Stalnaker) (03/01/91)
Index Number: 13745 [This is from the Silent Talk Conference] > The education of deaf children is largely in the hands > of people who have never been deaf one day in their lives > and never will be. Jay, there are many people who become deaf or suffer with a severe hearing loss in later life. So, I don't think your statement is exactly true. > Children in so-called "mainstream" classes are isolated > even worse, right in the middle of all those hearing kids. > Only 1% of mainstream teachers are themselves deaf. > Because these mainstream kids generally go to day classes, > once school lets out they go home and sit in front of their > television sets. I think you are grossly misinformed, Jay. Deaf children are no different from other children other than the fact they cannot hear sound. I feel the reason so many are isolated (the deaf children) are simply because they have made to feel they are inferior by attending schools for the deaf and should only associate with other deaf children. I've seen this happen. I've also seen the "mainstreamed" children mingle with others and get along quite well. Children do not take things seriously like adults often do. I've noticed the lack of social skills in deaf children who attend deaf schools more than I have those who are mainstreamed. Also, our education system is not supposed to teach social skills, that comes from the home environment and applies to children who are hearing as much as those with disabilities. I feel that until we do away with residential schools (except in dire necessities) the children will never be able to live independently. I also feel that is why so many who were not mainstreamed have problems now living on their own. We all need to be more realistic and educate ALL in being more accepting of those with disabilities. Until we do this, there will continue to be so much isolation -- Uucp: ..!{decvax,oliveb}!bunker!hcap!hnews!385!14.0!Ann.Stalnaker Internet: Ann.Stalnaker@p0.f14.n385.z1.fidonet.org
Fran.O'gorman@f94.n272.z1.fidonet.org (Fran O'gorman) (03/01/91)
Index Number: 13746
[This is from the Silent Talk Conference]
Hi Jay,
I can see what you mean about how mainstreaming can in fact
actually cause the deaf child to be more cut-off socially because
there are so few others with the same experience and he/she may
not even live near the kids in his class...and it IS a shame that
there aren't more deaf entering education--are there less programs
available or do less people aspire to it?
I was surprised about what you said about deaf kids not being
allowed to play varsity sports, though. I fellow librarian
attended a college in D.C. and played against Gallaudet among the
other colleges--football I think--and he said the team was very
good. I have a friend whose son had impaired vision and that made
Little League rough for him (in the outfield especially) but later
he went out for track and was fine, very good actually...is it
that they won't LET them play varsity sports? If anything a deaf
person who has had to depend on his eyes more than the hearing
person would be more visually acute and might prove the superior
player...surprised you said that (?)
I think the intensity of conversation between deaf people is
part of it too...it must be annoying to deal with a hearing person
who signs slowly, so I can understand when a deaf person might
prefer the company of another deaf person...but hopefully there
are those who put up with the aggravation as I feel it is
certainly to the benefit of the hearing world when the deaf do
choose to be a little more part of it...
--Fran
--
Uucp: ..!{decvax,oliveb}!bunker!hcap!hnews!272!94!Fran.O'gorman
Internet: Fran.O'gorman@f94.n272.z1.fidonet.orgJames.Womack@f14.n300.z1.fidonet.org (James Womack) (03/01/91)
Index Number: 13754
[This is from the Silent Talk Conference]
Jay, residential schools indeed serve a valuable function. Without
them, many deaf people would never have come to the realization of
a self-identity. We would have not that special deaf someone, we would
not have come together in numbers enough to form organizations and
clubs to meet our social and psychological needs to be among "our own"
where a free flowing burden-free method of communication could happen.
We would not have picked some of the most mundane aspects of life that
mean so much in mainstream society when you add them up together.
Mainstream programs, the waythey are used today, are committing genocide
against the Deaf Culture. They isolate us, suppress deaf people's chances
to master a language natural to us (ASL) and consequently, limit the
overall world knowledge and experience of the deaf. Thisis done by
the focus on speech as the main medium of education. 200 years of obvious
failure withthe majority of the deaf students is ignored andthis restrictive
medium continues to be imposed on deaf people and restricting the acquistion
of knowledge by deaf people. It also restricts the acquisition of a
1st language on which the 2nd one can be built so that the child can
actually master to some degree the language used by mainstream society.
Residential schools indeed isolate the deaf, but they also make the
deaf more self-aware and givethe child a true self of self-identity
AND expose that child to a greater awareness of the social truths in
hearing society as they apply to him or her.
Mainstreaming? If only it worked the way it should. In Tucson, we have
several public schools that work with us. We had a boy who was a whiz
in math. The deaf school could not challenge him enough. He was sent
to Amphi where they had an accelerated program. During part of the
day, he came to the deaf school for his language and reading needs.
We have a girl who is super lipreader (rare actually) and a doggone
good writer and reader. Matter of fact, she functions so high, the
SAT cannot test her (PHS level). She goes to CDO ( I think) for advanced
language and literature courses and comes to teh daef school for focus
in math (she is weak in this area) and her social needs (as determined
by her counselor). Here it is ! True mainstreaming. Public and residential
school working in conjunction for the Betterment of the CHILD instead
of butting heads over eduvational philosophy and all that horse manure
that does nothing but squeeze the kid in the middle while ignoring
the specific individual needs of the kid. If mainstreaming could be
done this way, fewer deaf people would end up being bitter about mainstreamed
programs andthe concept would actually work!!!!! That along with providing
the deaf child with a first language natural to deafness which is relevant
to "eye" input as opposed to "ear" input.
I have said it before. Teaching English from young age to a deaf child
is like teaching a blind person red. English is phonetic. Meant for
the ear. You might as well tell a blind person to open his mouth wider
inorder to "see" red.
--
Uucp: ..!{decvax,oliveb}!bunker!hcap!hnews!300!14!James.Womack
Internet: James.Womack@f14.n300.z1.fidonet.orgJames.Womack@f14.n300.z1.fidonet.org (James Womack) (03/01/91)
Index Number: 13758
[This is from the Silent Talk Conference]
What you said to Jay about residential schools, i would love to see
you stand before a classroom like mine in a residential school and
tell my high schoolers the same. Don't worry, i willhave the governor
order the National Guard to protect you from the kids.
Jay is correct that deaf education is inthe hands of too many who have
never been deaf. Tobe deaf is to be mnore than just deaf later on or
anything. To be deaf is to be face to face with social realities hearing
society subjects deaf people to. Mainsteaming. Hoooo Boy! Theyway it
is done is a pity. Wish you could meet those who went thru it, then
later associated with Deaf ( note the capital so it isn't confused
withthe clinical term "deaf') and grow to resent what they endured
as mainstreamed students. a shame really because if mainstreaming worked
the way it should have and as I described in an earlier post, it would
be one heck of a great educational system!
They shut down residential schools in some states but openede them
later because public schools were failing miserably to meet the kds
needs. This year alone and once again at my school, we have received
about (counting high school only) 6 or 7 kids whose parents pulled
them out of mainstreamed programs after finally realizing theier kids
were not benefiting as theyw ere led to believe. Many did so after
meeting or seeing our "residential" school kids in town or on some
tv program or something and quickly saw how vital and self-assured
they were when compared with their own children. With so many peoplelearning
ASL now, I find my kids and myself interacting with hearing people
in ways we never thought of before. Even those who don't signwant top
--
Uucp: ..!{decvax,oliveb}!bunker!hcap!hnews!300!14!James.Womack
Internet: James.Womack@f14.n300.z1.fidonet.orgJay.Croft@p0.f147.n109.z1.fidonet.org (Jay Croft) (03/01/91)
Index Number: 13765
[This is from the Silent Talk Conference]
I stand by my statements.
Look in the directory issue of THE AMERICAN ANNALS OF THE DEAF. It
lists most of the programs for deaf children in the USA. The listings
also show the number of deaf staff people. Work out the mathematics for
yourself.
Your response to my statement, "The education of deaf children is
largely in the hands of people who have never been deaf one day in their
lives and never will be," is completely irrelevant. Investigate for
yourself the percentage of teachers and staff in school programs for
deaf children, who are themselves deaf.
I have no idea why you brought up the subject of people who become deaf
later in life, in regard to education programs.
"Mainstreaming" classes have so many things wrong with them, both
conceptually and educationally, that Dr. Mary Malzkuhn, professor of
government at Gallaudet University, has suggested that they are a
violation of the 8th amendment of the US Constitution. The 8th
Amendments prohibits "cruel and unusual punishment."
Residential schools for deaf children (at least the better ones) work
hard to instill pride and self-esteem in their students. The kids are
definitely not made to feel inferior. They put on plays, they have
varsity sports teams which play against hearie schools, they probably
have more field trips than public schools do. The teachers in
residential schools who themselves are deaf take particular
responsibility for helping deaf kids not only cope, but succeed in the
larger world.
The four student leaders who successfully guided the protest against a
hearie president of Gallaudet University are all from residential
schools, and all the offspring of deaf parents. They don't feel
inferior.
Our educational system is definitely supposed to teach social skills.
Residential schools only for children "in dire necessity?" Ho, ho, ho.
--
Uucp: ..!{decvax,oliveb}!bunker!hcap!hnews!109!147.0!Jay.Croft
Internet: Jay.Croft@p0.f147.n109.z1.fidonet.orgJay.Croft@p0.f147.n109.z1.fidonet.org (Jay Croft) (03/01/91)
Index Number: 13766
[This is from the Silent Talk Conference]
Most athletic "conferences" are made up of schools of similar size.
Thus you don't see a football team from a school of 500 students play
against a school enrolling 3,000 students.
Let's say that you need 15 players, including second-string, for a
basketball team. In a residential school with 100 students, there is
a 15 out of 50 chance (assuming the number of boys and girls are equal,
and that there are separate teams). This is about a one-in-three chance
of being chosen to participate in varsity sports.
A 3,000 student high school, with 1,500 boys, gives a student one-in-100
chance of making varsity. Those 15 Chosen Ones are the most talented
and strongest and, for basketball, the tallest. A deaf kid in a large
school has as much chance as being chosen as any other kid--but it's
still one in a hundred, versus one in three in a small residential
school.
It's simple mathematics.
--
Uucp: ..!{decvax,oliveb}!bunker!hcap!hnews!109!147.0!Jay.Croft
Internet: Jay.Croft@p0.f147.n109.z1.fidonet.orgFran.O'gorman@f94.n272.z1.fidonet.org (Fran O'gorman) (03/01/91)
Index Number: 13798
[This is from the Silent Talk Conference]
Hi Lana,
LB> Hey! Neat.. that's kinda cool especially when you consider
LB> how EMENSELY different Japaneese is from English. I wonder
LB> if they derrived their sign language from ASL?
I suspect that it was, since so many signs were the same and they
appeared to be using our alphabet (unlike the 2 handed British
one). I know that it is not considered proper for a person to
make contact with their hands to their bodies (especially for
women) so the movements were a bit more sweeping.
Another part of Japan recieved my program and Tzipporah, the gal
that got it to them, said they were modifying it, which at first I
was upset to hear. But when I learned it was only to make the
hands have less contact with the little man's body and face, and
she explained all that, then I didn't mind.
They (at the Kobe school) want to learn our ASL so as be able to
communicate better with Americans.
--Fran
--
Uucp: ..!{decvax,oliveb}!bunker!hcap!hnews!272!94!Fran.O'gorman
Internet: Fran.O'gorman@f94.n272.z1.fidonet.orgAnn.Stalnaker@p0.f14.n385.z1.fidonet.org (Ann Stalnaker) (03/01/91)
Index Number: 13802
[This is from the Silent Talk Conference]
Well, you know I was mainstreamed long before there was such a thing
as mainstreaming in the public schools. My siblings were also and
there were 4 other deaf girls who attended high school with me in
Shreveport, LA. We didn't have any classes together and we all did
very well in a large school with a student population of 4,000!
I will say this - I'm so thankful my parents did not put the 3 of
us in deaf schools. They have told me that they were determined
we were going to live normal lives and be exposed to all that is
out in this BIG wide world. I attended schools all over the world
(my father was a military officer) and I wouldn't trade my travels
for anything. I don't feel I would be where I am today if it hadn't
been for the way I was raised and the exposure. Sure, there were
times we had a great deal of frustration but we survived and I think
it made better people of us. My dad was very strict with us and
spent a great deal of time with us in helping us with our speech.
There were many times I would have to sit in a chair until I could
say a word correctly. Yes, I did resent it at the time but not
anymore as it really did help me.
That's why I know others can do the same thing. They do when they
are around me and they LOVE it!
I'm not trying to cut those down who attended residential schools,
I just feel they really are not necessary and I think in some states
where mainstreaming has been very successful is the reason so many
of the residential schools are slowly going downhill. There are
several in Oklahoma that are no longer in operation due to several
new programs the state education system is now implementing.
Enough said on the subject. I'm not going to continue this thread.
--
Uucp: ..!{decvax,oliveb}!bunker!hcap!hnews!385!14.0!Ann.Stalnaker
Internet: Ann.Stalnaker@p0.f14.n385.z1.fidonet.orgJames.Womack@f14.n300.z1.fidonet.org (James Womack) (03/01/91)
Index Number: 13815
[This is from the Silent Talk Conference]
What you tell Anne is true, Jay. The mainstreaming mentality is oddly
enough bringing Alexander Graham Bell's dreaded "prevent the emergence
of a Deaf Race" philosophy back from the dead. This oralist view of
deaf genocide had mainstreaming as its core toprevent among other things,
deaf people from marrying each other and eliminating Deaf teachers
from deaf education programs. You ought to read the man's full history
and his true depth of involvement with Deaf people. Oddly enough, he
seemed fine with deaf people until he hooked up with his oralist deaf
educator-hating wife Mabel Hubbard.
Deaf people who know mainstreaming for what it is and as it is applied
today, consider it a form of cultural genocide. Anne, I fear is only
able to see her view of things. A forum involving deaf people from
all walks of life and statistics showing the social, cultural, and
personal impact of the majority of deaf people in these programs will
show that mainstreaming is doing far more harm than good (yet if it
were applied the way I showed how it is sometimes used here in Tucson,
it could be fantastic!).
Recently, a former student of mine whose parents pulled her from ASDB
a few years ago was seen driving into the deaf school rapidly. She
was followed by what appeared to be a hearing friend or counselor.
This follower was in another car. Theyparked outside. the girl was
distraught. We watched. The friend or whatever plead with her for a
long time. We left them alone. It seems the girl was experiencing problems
with earing peers, teachers etc etc and wanted to return to the deaf
school. Nobody agreed with her wants of course. She was lonely, bitter,
angry, upset etc etc. To quote jer when she came to visit later, "I
didn't belong there. I would not recommend mainstream for deaf people.
It's all lies." Tome this is an overstatement because there are situation
in which it can work for some deaf students. Especially if the child's
needs are the true core of placement and not some bonedheaded narrowminded
philosophy from someone who doesn't know a darn thing about deaf people
or deafness. In any case, this girl is just one more frustrated and
angry "Deaf adult" who was forced to endure an educational system that
does not work and does a lot of psychological damage. I asked why did
she come back to visit. She said I justhad to talk with a deaf teacher,
someone who understands me. I wish and Maureen could have come to help
me learn when I couldn't understand my teachers in thepublic school.
She speaks angrily abouther parents who insisted she go mainstreamed.
She is angry at the public school and a lot ofits staff. Telling her
that they al did what they believed was best for her and they did not
fully understand what this meant to she herself as a person gets this
response. "F--- them! I didn't ask for this!" She goes on and on. Such
an angry young woman. Yet she is just one of many I have watched over
the years warped by what I insist are well-meaning people who just
don't recognize that a deaf child is first of all "deaf." And Engolish
being phonetic is not meant for cramming through the eyes. And that
the systems focusing on English and English only as an education medium
is an over all 200 plus year old FAILURE. In a millionyears I don't
knwo if many hearies and brainwashed deaf people willget this thru
their heads. in the meantime, so many kids pay dearly for this absurd
approach.
--
Uucp: ..!{decvax,oliveb}!bunker!hcap!hnews!300!14!James.Womack
Internet: James.Womack@f14.n300.z1.fidonet.orgJay.Croft@p0.f147.n109.z1.fidonet.org (Jay Croft) (03/01/91)
Index Number: 13819
[This is from the Silent Talk Conference]
Whew! What a story! And a very sad one.
This points out the need for more *Deaf* therapists, teachers,
counselors and whatever. Gallaudet University is now offering PhD's in
Clinical Psychology, and this may help with this great need.
(Ann Stalnaker faints away at the thought.)
The young woman needs a new counselor!
--
Uucp: ..!{decvax,oliveb}!bunker!hcap!hnews!109!147.0!Jay.Croft
Internet: Jay.Croft@p0.f147.n109.z1.fidonet.orgTim.Smith@f429.n275.z1.fidonet.org (Tim Smith) (03/12/91)
Index Number: 13862
[This is from the Silent Talk Conference]
Sorry, but I have to argue big time about ASL and english being
"basically the same with a few adjustments here and there.."
That is very untrue. ASL in its pure form is in no way like Signed
English. I am very doubtful when I hear a hearing person tell me that
they can sign ASL. ASL is a dying language due to the oppression from
the pathological view of society.
People that hear who say they can sign ASL, as far as my experience
goes, all they know is a very limited vocuabalty. People twist the
meaning of ASL. There are "inbetweens" between ASL and SEE (Signed
Exact English), which is called PSE (Pigeon Signed English)
Too many people confuse PSE as ASL in its true form.
--
Uucp: ..!{decvax,oliveb}!bunker!hcap!hnews!275!429!Tim.Smith
Internet: Tim.Smith@f429.n275.z1.fidonet.orgTim.Smith@f429.n275.z1.fidonet.org (Tim Smith) (03/12/91)
Index Number: 13863
[This is from the Silent Talk Conference]
Mainstreaming really depends on the indivual.
I am the product of the mainstreaming theory, and I am happy to say that
it was successful. I have been mainstreamed since age 4.
However, I can't say it is fool prrof, and believe me, I know that much.
I have seen other results of mainstreaming in other deaf people and it
saddens me that they have such difficulties adjusting. I understand
that SEE doesn't fit the processing mind of the visual deaf. I feel
very alone among the deaf that I have an unique outlet in BOTH the
hearing community AND the Deaf community. I have never met any like me.
This looks like THE place to meet people like me, and I am happy to
finally discover this BBS.
I do not know where I stand in the educating for the deaf, since it
(mainstreaming) worked for >ME<. It doesn't seem to work for any one
else. At least not in this location.
I'm more or less neutural towards the schooling of the deaf, however I
do believe that ASL is the best medium to teach in.
--
Uucp: ..!{decvax,oliveb}!bunker!hcap!hnews!275!429!Tim.Smith
Internet: Tim.Smith@f429.n275.z1.fidonet.orgAnn.Stalnaker@p0.f14.n385.z1.fidonet.org (Ann Stalnaker) (03/12/91)
Index Number: 13867
[This is from the Silent Talk Conference]
I have to disagree with your comments/statements/unsupported facts
here, James.
I don't think you are looking at the whole picture realistically.
Perhaps I am not either but I do know what I've seen throughout
my lifetime of experiences what could work and how things could improve.
As to the parents - those in several states that I've come in contact
with - they seem to want more than a silent language for their children
and I very much agree with them on this issue. I've seen so many
small deaf children who sign and then speak for the first time around
7 or 8 years old but sadly there is often no followup to help them
improve their speech skills. That is what I find so appalling.
You and I will never agree on this issue and just because I've stated
I'm not going to continue discussing this thread doesn't mean I'm
a quitter - far from it! I just can't see continuing with you and
Jay as you both don't try to see the good qualities of the other
side.
You are right, I do not support residential schools but I don't believe
I ever stated I cut down those who attend or have attended residential
schools. I think you've taken some of my comments and distorted
them far out of proportion.
Perhaps you might consider downloading the Silver XpressReader and
installing it in your system so you can reply to your messages off
line and answer them rationally. I was informed that The Emerald
Isle BBS offers Silver Xpress to its users - take advantage of it.
I think you'll enjoy it far better.
--
Uucp: ..!{decvax,oliveb}!bunker!hcap!hnews!385!14.0!Ann.Stalnaker
Internet: Ann.Stalnaker@p0.f14.n385.z1.fidonet.orgLana.Berrington@f424.n104.z1.fidonet.org (Lana Berrington) (03/15/91)
Index Number: 13921
[This is from the Silent Talk Conference]
Hi Tim!
In a message of <24 Feb 91>, Tim Smith (1:275/429.0) writes:
TS>> Sorry, but I have to argue big time about ASL and english being
TS>> "basically the same with a few adjustments here and there.."
I think you may have misunderstood my previous message Tim. It
took me a while to thumb back through the reply chain but I believe
you were commenting on a message I wrote comparing ASL as used in
the United States and ASL as used in CANADA (which is where I
live). I know ASL is completely different from Signed English..
right now I'm taking an ASL class and my teacher (who is deaf
herself) has been very good in making sure we know the
differences. In fact, the phrase "No! that's Signed English.. say
it in ASL" rings in my mind. ;-D
There IS a small dialict difference in the ASL that Canadians use.
Not a big difference.. just a few words with different signs.. but
basically the same. It's not a different language.. it's still ASL
.. Just a different "accent" (if I can use that word). I'm sure
this is to be found almost EVERYWHERE with just about ANY
language. Compare for instance the difference between Spoken
english in a Southern state of the US to that spoken by a NewYorker
or a Californian. Anyways.. that's what I meant to relay by my
message.. I didn't mean to infer that ASL and Signed English were
the same.
~ <*Lana*> ~
=-=-=
Steinbach's Guideline for Systems Programming
Never test for an error condition you don't know how to
handle.
# Origin: The Point Of No Return: Calgary, Alberta (201:5500/55.4)
To respond netmail, use FSC-0038 DOMAIN lines or as 1st line of msg use:
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--
Uucp: ..!{decvax,oliveb}!bunker!hcap!hnews!104!424!Lana.Berrington
Internet: Lana.Berrington@f424.n104.z1.fidonet.orgDean.Carey@f27.n143.z1.fidonet.org (Dean Carey) (03/15/91)
Index Number: 13953
[This is from the Silent Talk Conference]
Adult Education in San Jose, CA is offerring both SEE and ASL
courses for free to those persons interested in learning sign
language in order to assist hearing-impaired OR the deaf.
Why not write to them to determine if their courses could be
transplanted to your adult evening education classes. The address is:
Adult Education Program
625 Educational Park Drive
San Jose, CA 95133
(408) 923-2306 (Voice)
--
Uucp: ..!{decvax,oliveb}!bunker!hcap!hnews!143!27!Dean.Carey
Internet: Dean.Carey@f27.n143.z1.fidonet.orgJames.Womack@f14.n300.z1.fidonet.org (James Womack) (03/15/91)
Index Number: 13956
[This is from the Silent Talk Conference]
Dean, the college I work at also offers the kind of courses you mention.
What is happening is that our enrollment is profoundly hearing and
they gravitate heavily towards the ASL courses. Many of them have Deaf
associates or know a deaf person and it seems their experiences with
the same steers them toward ASL. Not only that, we have an ASL/English
class designed for deaf students. It is very successful. We team a
regular hearing English instructor witha skilled ASL user. They teamteach.
Many of the students fromthe school for the deaf go there and their
mastery of English progresses in leaps and bounds. Now here is a funny
thing. More and more hearing students are seeking to take that class
as well.
I am concerned that other sign languages will cease being taught because
the deaf don't care for them and the hearing gravitate away from them
by the end of their first school year. However, on the other hand,
I am not too surprised. The experiences that these hearing people have
with Deaf people would steer them to ASL for one thing. For another,
the universities here accept ASL as a foreign language so the credit
could be transferred. SEE 1 and 2 don't offer much social or academic
incentives.
--
Uucp: ..!{decvax,oliveb}!bunker!hcap!hnews!300!14!James.Womack
Internet: James.Womack@f14.n300.z1.fidonet.org