Ann.Stalnaker@p0.f14.n385.z1.fidonet.org (Ann Stalnaker) (03/12/91)
Index Number: 13865
[This is from the Silent Talk Conference]
Perhaps I need to clarify a few things, Fran - while my dad was very
strict as he was determined his children were not going to speak
like most deaf people are (and he was right in feeling this way because
so many do not read/speak/write English properly - I don't mean to
be rude in stating this, am just being very honest as it's the truth)
and I don't feel he would have expected so much from us if he hadn't
known we were capable of it. I am the oldest and I was almost 4
years old before they realized I was deaf because I was able to lip
read and speak very well, even though perhaps not distinctly but
then on the other hand, a lot of small children do not speak clearly
at a young age. Before I entered the first grade (I was 5 at this
time and in kindergarten), I was taken to a very good and well known
specialist at Northwestern University Medical Center in Chicago and
was tested thoroughly and told to be enrolled in public schools due
to my lipreading skills and the fact I could speak very well. I
had extensive speech therapy at home as well as privately. By the
time my brother and sister were born, my parents knew if they had
any more children, all would be born deaf.
It is true we all were mainstreamed and we were not a part of the
deaf culture, but that doesn't mean we were not exposed to those
who were a part of the deaf culture. My brother is the only one
who knows sign and is very proficient at it - in fact, he is a certified
oral/sign interpreter. He even taught at the Arkansas School for
the Deaf but ended up quitting after 3 years as he felt his hands
were tied in helping these children. This is a whole 'nuther story
that I think is best that I don't go into detail on.
I will never agree with the theory that ASL should be taught first
as I know from experience it should not be the case - perhaps for
some but in most cases, no.
There are many who are like I am and I hope there continues to be
more in the near future - but regardless of what communication mode
we use, we will never break the barriers down until we work as a
whole. You will never see "hearie" or "deafie" in any of my messages.
I think the whole ideal of using those labels sucks as we really
shouldn't use labels.
I don't mean to take all of this out on you - just wanted to clear
up a few things. I realize James and Jay will never be able to discuss
any of this on a rational basis, so it's best that I refrain from
making any more comments to them. Of course, we all have the right
to our viewpoints but there is no need to take it out on others when
they differ from your own. I am very opinionated but I'm also fair
and I don't lose any sleep over trivial things like ASL/Oralism but
it does bother me a great deal on some of our other rights which
I think are far more important at this time.
Just because I stated I felt it best that I didn't continue this
thread doesn't mean I'm being a quitter - that is something I never
do and those who know me know this to be true. Wayne, Jack, Frank,
Laurie and I know each other personally, some know us better than
others. It is hard to exchange messages via this medium and try
not to offend someone else.
--
Uucp: ..!{decvax,oliveb}!bunker!hcap!hnews!385!14.0!Ann.Stalnaker
Internet: Ann.Stalnaker@p0.f14.n385.z1.fidonet.orgJay.Croft@p0.f147.n109.z1.fidonet.org (Jay Croft) (03/12/91)
Index Number: 13870
[This is from the Silent Talk Conference]
ASL is not a trivial matter. It is vitally important to the deaf
community.
And your remark that James and I cannot discuss the topic rationally, is
quite insulting.
--
Uucp: ..!{decvax,oliveb}!bunker!hcap!hnews!109!147.0!Jay.Croft
Internet: Jay.Croft@p0.f147.n109.z1.fidonet.orgFran.O'gorman@f94.n272.z1.fidonet.org (Fran O'gorman) (03/12/91)
Index Number: 13873
[This is from the Silent Talk Conference]
Hi again Ann,
First I want to thank you for sharing so much of your
experience --as I read I think I understand better why you have
your point of view.
AS> I don't feel he would have expected so much
AS> from us if he hadn't known we were capable of it. I am the oldest
AS> and I was almost 4 years old before they realized I was deaf
AS> because I was able to lip read and speak very well, even though
AS> perhaps not distinctly but then on the other hand, a lot of small
AS> children do not speak clearly at a young age. Before I entered
AS> the first grade (I was 5 at this time and in kindergarten), I was
AS> taken to a very good and well known specialist at Northwestern
AS> University Medical Center in Chicago and was tested thoroughly and
AS> told to be enrolled in public schools due to my lipreading skills
AS> and the fact I could speak very well.
You see the key here is that you already had mastered lipreading
and speech on your own even before formal 'education' had
begun--you WERE communicating. But you have to picture the child
who is 5 yrs old and is NOT communicating...it happens too. My
Mary was so frustrated she was screaming at times. The way I view
it is that the child needs communication first, be it sign or
lipreading/speech and if the sppech lip/reading is as forthcoming
as your's was then you had it in a way in which more people would
understand you--I would NEVER have interfered with that by
changing you OVER to sign. But if by 5 you weren't communicating,
sign would be a logical start--I'd think.
AS> I will never agree with the theory that ASL should be taught first
AS> as I know from experience it should not be the case - perhaps for
AS> some but in most cases, no.
When you think about it, communication starts at the preschool
level at home, if the oral approach is going to work well as in
your case it did, it would already have begun, but I think that
you are the exception that proves the rule, I could be wrong I
don't have statistics, but the sign idea as a start is with the
idea that communication hasn't been taking place before this...my
Mary was actaully starting to make up her own sign...
AS> There are many who are like I am and I hope there continues to be
AS> more in the near future - but regardless of what communication mode
AS> we use, we will never break the barriers down until we work as a
AS> whole. You will never see "hearie" or "deafie" in any of my
AS> messages. I think the whole ideal of using those labels sucks as
AS> we really shouldn't use labels.
I'm in agreement here for sure--the communication is what is SO
important and while I don't hate the labels I feel they do tend to
create a 'us vs. them' climate. I like the idea of a deaf culture
that doesn't exclude the others.
AS> I don't mean to take all of this out on you - just wanted to clear
AS> up a few things. I realize James and Jay will never be able to
AS> discuss any of this on a rational basis, so it's best that I
AS> refrain from making any more comments to them.
I wouldn't say, 'not rational' just very emotional --which
actually is kind of neat at times--I think James is probably a
great teacher of sign for that reason because he believes so
passionately in it...
AS> Of course, we all
AS> have the right to our viewpoints but there is no need to take it
AS> out on others when they differ from your own.
I guess I should remember I'm not the one they were yelling at :-)
AS> I am very
AS> opinionated but I'm also fair and I don't lose any sleep over
AS> trivial things like ASL/Oralism but it does bother me a great deal
AS> on some of our other rights which I think are far more important
AS> at this time.
You know all this arguing can get pretty crazy at times, and I
have to smile a little though, because one of the quotes on this
board was a parody on a familiar quote --this one "Revolution is
the opiate of the intellectuals". It was my husband Tim that
observed when an argument had ensued between the sysop and a user
over preferred modems (and it was getting quite heated) that it
was because they were both quite intelligent --I said why? He
said get a couple of very smart people together with very strong
views on an issue and...I think I got his drift .. :-)
AS> Just because I stated I felt it best that I didn't continue this
AS> thread doesn't mean I'm being a quitter -
I definitely know better than that! :-)
AS> It is hard to exchange messages via this medium and try
AS> not to offend someone else.
Gee, I hope YOU haven't been offended in this...I haven't, well
actually at one point I did think that James was blaming me about
the bad treatment deaf people have received, but it turned out it
wasn't meant that way...anyway I think James and Jay are just a
little more emotional at times than we cool-headed ladies <smirk>
Jay and James are ya listening...JUST KIDDING {now they're gonna
get offended maybe}...
--Fran
PS We really COULD change the subject at this point I think
everyone might just breathe a sigh of relief if we did :-)
--
Uucp: ..!{decvax,oliveb}!bunker!hcap!hnews!272!94!Fran.O'gorman
Internet: Fran.O'gorman@f94.n272.z1.fidonet.orgFran.O'gorman@f94.n272.z1.fidonet.org (Fran O'gorman) (03/15/91)
Index Number: 13922
[This is from the Silent Talk Conference]
JC> You say that your daughter Mary was beginning to use signs to
JC> communicate. I sincerely hope that you encouraged it.
Absolutely! That was many, many years ago...she's 14 now and a
very proficient signer. But at that time they (the speech
therapists, etc) had held off teaching her sign with the thought
she would speak, but it just wasn't happening. Once this began to
happen I had to learn some sign myself --and pronto! Her first
signing was really a kind of mime -- because she was actually
making it up until they switched her over a formally taught her
some. Turns out some of the ideas she had came very close to the
real thing.
JC> My hearie daughters were signing real signs long before they
JC> uttered one syllable. My oldest daughter used 50 signs at the age
JC> of 14 months. Now, at age 19 years, she is a professional
JC> interpreter earning her way through college.
No question about it sign IS very natural.
On a different note... I do feel very badly about the bad vibes
between you and James and Ann. What began as a friendly debate
has mushroomed into a bitter battle and also there's been much
offense-taking in the process! And here the 'subjects' on the top
of the msgs are in some cases ones I made up! I know there will
never be aggreement when it comes to sign vs oralism and of course
the same with mainstreaming vs residential...but it isn't
something to become enemies over! I know it's hearies who have
messed things up and there's times when anger is quite
understandable but don't turn it at Ann...please! Just as I would
ask her not to come down on you...I really do feel badly about all
this...
--Fran
--
Uucp: ..!{decvax,oliveb}!bunker!hcap!hnews!272!94!Fran.O'gorman
Internet: Fran.O'gorman@f94.n272.z1.fidonet.orgAnn.Stalnaker@p0.f14.n385.z1.fidonet.org (Ann Stalnaker) (03/15/91)
Index Number: 13944
[This is from the Silent Talk Conference]
Are you familiar with the IBM and Apple/MacIntosh computers that
are used by speech therapists/pathologists? I'm referring to
those using software and microphones and as a person speaks into
the microphone, the sounds make pictures on the screen and shows
them whether they are pronouncing a sound clearly or not. I think
this is wonderful and cannot think of a better tool to teach
children/adults speech.
I also feel that decoders are also another excellent tool in educating
those in reading.
--
Uucp: ..!{decvax,oliveb}!bunker!hcap!hnews!385!14.0!Ann.Stalnaker
Internet: Ann.Stalnaker@p0.f14.n385.z1.fidonet.orgAnn.Stalnaker@p0.f14.n385.z1.fidonet.org (Ann Stalnaker) (03/15/91)
Index Number: 13945 [This is from the Silent Talk Conference] > Why is it hearing impaired have problems i.e. spelling, > correct phrasology etc? My opinion of this is the fact they are not being taught English. So many have been educated in ASL, i.e., deaf education where the standard norm has been lowered. I'm appalled that so many even graduate reading and comprehending at 4th or 5th grade level. I don't necessarily blame this on the individual person - I blame it on the education system. Also, I've found that so many tend to write in ASL and it makes it very difficult to follow them. I know of one particular yound adult woman who realized she didn't get the education she deserved and she was determined to do something about it. Often she would come over to see me and we'd have a good time chatting away (even though she signed, she could speak and lipread pretty good) and she'd ask me to give a definition of certain words I would use and keep repeating it over and over until she felt comfortable saying it. I told her to get a good dictionary and any time she ran across a word she didn't know the meaning of, to go look it up. The dictionary is a very valuable book to have around at all times - I call it my "Bible"... -- Uucp: ..!{decvax,oliveb}!bunker!hcap!hnews!385!14.0!Ann.Stalnaker Internet: Ann.Stalnaker@p0.f14.n385.z1.fidonet.org
Kevin.White@f71.n343.z1.fidonet.org (Kevin White) (03/15/91)
Index Number: 13963
[This is from the Silent Talk Conference]
Even if a person can not hear or hear very little, what
do you think about using those programs on computer to have
a deaf person be able to at least slightly pronounce
if not 100% some of what they are saying? I've seen those
old shows you'd call public broadcasting which you don't
get to see maybe but once, where it can take up to two years
to accomplish it depending on the persons stubbornness.
--
Uucp: ..!{decvax,oliveb}!bunker!hcap!hnews!343!71!Kevin.White
Internet: Kevin.White@f71.n343.z1.fidonet.orgJames.Womack@f14.n300.z1.fidonet.org (James Womack) (03/15/91)
Index Number: 13964
[This is from the Silent Talk Conference]
I am familair with the IBM machines using speech training techniques
with electronic technology. It is good for those kids who have nough
residual hearing to make meaningful use of it.
--
Uucp: ..!{decvax,oliveb}!bunker!hcap!hnews!300!14!James.Womack
Internet: James.Womack@f14.n300.z1.fidonet.orgAnn.Stalnaker@p0.f14.n385.z1.fidonet.org (Ann Stalnaker) (03/15/91)
Index Number: 13978 [This is from the Silent Talk Conference] > I am familair with the IBM machines using speech training > techniques with electronic technology. It is good for those > kids who have nough residual hearing to make meaningful > use of it. I don't exactly agree with you about hearing impaired kids needing enough residual hearing for this method to work. There are many who are profoundly deaf and have been successful in mastering speech. -- Uucp: ..!{decvax,oliveb}!bunker!hcap!hnews!385!14.0!Ann.Stalnaker Internet: Ann.Stalnaker@p0.f14.n385.z1.fidonet.org