[misc.handicap] KPR VS Arkenstone

Chip.Orange@f778.n115.z1.fidonet.org (Chip Orange) (07/21/90)

Index Number: 9373

[This is from the Blink Talk Conference]

I've had a chance over the past two months to work with a Kurzweil 
Personal Reader at home and an Arkenstone read at work and would like to 
share my impressions of both of them.  I think I'll list various 
categories, and give each machine a rating from 1-10 (where 10 is the 
best).  This is not something carefully thought out, so if you have any 
questions afterwards, don't hesitate to ask.
  
Over-all recognition capabilities: KPR 8, Arkenstone 7.  The KPR does 
seem a little better over-all, much better at reading books and small 
print because of the 400 DPI book-edge scanner.  The arkenstone is better 
at dot-matrix print if you need to read that, I never have had the 
ocasion.
  
Ease of use:  KPR 8, Arkenstone 5.  Even with the Easy-scan software I 
beleive the KPR is much wasier to use.  This is especially true if the 
blind person contemplating the reading machine doesn't know how to type.
 
Reliability:  KPR 3, Arkenstone 8.  My KPR has had a miriad of hardware 
and software problems, and I understand from other owners this is the 
norm, not the exception.  The only problem with the Arkenstone is that 
documents scanned with the sheet feeder turn out much poorer than when 
manually fed.  I beleive the feeder is out of adjustment, but can't get 
Arkenstone to do anything about it.
  
Warantee service:  KPR 8, Arkenstone 5.  When I had my problems with the 
KPR, they did Fed Exp. me a new one and paid to have my old one returned 
to them.  I couldn't even get Arkenstone to agree to service the document 
feeder that seems to be giving problems, even if we paid shipping both 
ways.
  
Unusual features:
     Here I'll list unusual features possessed by one or the other 
machine.  The KPR has the ability to "learn" the text it is reading. 
This means that a second scanning of a page is usually much better than 
the first scan, and all subsequent pages keep improving.
     The Arkenstone allows you to scan just a small segment of the top or 
bottom of the page.  Especially helpful if you're looking at page 
numbers.
     The Kurzweil can read one page to you while it is scanning the next. 
 For reading books this is especially nice.
     The Kurzweil's maximum reading speed is 350 WPM.  I can barely 
understand things at that speed, so have no trouble with this, but others 
have mentioned to me that they would like a higher speed.  The 
Arkenstone's speed is determined by the synthesizer being used.
     The KPR does need "lightening" or "darkening" adjustments for 
scanning like the Arkenstone, it does this automatically.
     The KPR does have the hand held camera as an option, but I didn't 
purchase it because I simply couldn't make it work in my demo.  Others 
may be able to use it and if so, it would make a nice addition.
  
     I hope things ramblings help someone in selecting the right reading 
machine for them, and would be interested in any comments from others who 
have had significant time with both systems.
  
    Chip Orange

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Maggi.Weslager@p0.f89.n129.z1.fidonet.org (Maggi Weslager) (07/21/90)

Index Number: 9378

[This is from the Blink Talk Conference]

Chip,
        In addition to your informative "comparison" message I would
like to mention that the Arkenstone is not compatable with a Packard
Bell BIOS...something worth noting before an equipment purchase.

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Bryan.Blazie@p0.f89.n129.z1.fidonet.org (Bryan Blazie) (07/21/90)

Index Number: 9379

[This is from the Blink Talk Conference]

this is only true of some of the packard bell systems I beleave so 
call your local dealer befor jumping the gun

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Gary.Petraccaro@f90.n129.z1.fidonet.org (Gary Petraccaro) (07/24/90)

Index Number: 9415

[This is from the Blink Talk Conference]

Chip,

     Thanks for the KPR/Arkenstone comparison.  Covered all my concerns
except one.  From your message I get the impression that the Arkenstone you
used only had a 300 dpi scanner.  Isn't there a 400 dpi scanner now
available for the Arkenstone and do you think that would make books more
readable?

                                Thanks,
                                Gary

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Donald.Breda@f460.n101.z1.fidonet.org (Donald Breda) (07/24/90)

Index Number: 9426

[This is from the Blink Talk Conference]

 CO> I've had a chance over the past two months to work with a 
 CO> Kurzweil Personal Reader at home and an Arkenstone read at work 
 CO> and would like to share my impressions of both of them.  I 
 CO> think I'll list various categories, and give each machine a 
 CO> rating from 1-10 (where 10 is the best).  This is not something 
 CO> carefully thought out, so if you have any questions afterwards, 
 CO> don't hesitate to ask.   
 CO> Over-all recognition capabilities: KPR 8, Arkenstone 7.  The 
 CO> KPR does seem a little better over-all, much better at reading 
 CO> books and small print because of the 400 DPI book-edge scanner. 
 CO>  The arkenstone is better at dot-matrix print if you need to 
 CO>  read that, I never have had the ocasion.
 CO>

Well Chip, what version of the KPR firmware are you using? I was a beta
tester for the KPR and I would never say that it had better recognition
then the Arkenstone. It's inability to read numbers consistantly or
fractions for that matter certainly hurt its usefulness in my case. I
could read a phone bill on the Arkenstone and pay it, I would never do
that with the KPR.
 CO> Ease of use:  KPR 8, Arkenstone 5.  Even with the Easy-scan 
 CO> software I beleive the KPR is much wasier to use.  This is 
 CO> especially true if the blind person contemplating the reading 
 CO> machine doesn't know how to type.  
 CO> Reliability:  KPR 3, Arkenstone 8.  My KPR has had a miriad of 
 CO> hardware and software problems, and I understand from other 
 CO> owners this is the norm, not the exception.  The only problem 
 CO> with the Arkenstone is that documents scanned with the sheet 
 CO> feeder turn out much poorer than when manually fed.  I beleive 
 CO> the feeder is out of adjustment, but can't get Arkenstone to do 
 CO> anything about it.   
 CO> Warantee service:  KPR 8, Arkenstone 5.  When I had my problems 
 CO> with the KPR, they did Fed Exp. me a new one and paid to have 
 CO> my old one returned to them.  I couldn't even get Arkenstone to 
 CO> agree to service the document feeder that seems to be giving 
 CO> problems, even if we paid shipping both ways.
 CO> Well Chip, I believe you should have delt with Calera directly on

 that one, not sure though. Maybe Les or another dealer could chime in
 here. I am disappointed to hear that though.

 CO> Unusual features:

I think that when compareing the KPR and the Arkenstone though Chip that
your comparing apples and oranges. It might be a more valid comparison
to put the Kurzweil PCKPR the pc reader up against the arkenstone.
 The Kurzweil stand alone personal reader I believe addresses a completely
different market then the Arkenstone does.
It is great for someone that doesn't know a thing about computers
and doesn't care too. for the power computer user though, I believe the
arkenstone is the scanner of choice since it just has so much more
capabilities.
     
     

... Abled, Blinktalk and sSilver xpress in Boston 9600 HST

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Chip.Orange@f778.n115.z1.fidonet.org (Chip Orange) (07/24/90)

Index Number: 9427

[This is from the Blink Talk Conference]

Hi Gary,
      Sorry, should have been clearer about that, it's important.  You 
can get a 400 DPI scanner for the Arkenstone, but it has a couple of 
drawbacks that the KPR one doesn't.  First, it can't scan the entire page 
at that resolution.  Most, but not all of it.  Second, it's not a 
book-edge scanner.  That is, you can place a book on the KPR scanner 
where the scanner edge is right up in the spine of the book, and it will 
read virtually up into the spine.  On the Arkenstone one, you must 
guestimate the position of the scanning edge, which is not the edge of 
the scanner itself, and position the spine there, where a significant 
amount of the page is left curving up and away from the scanning glass. 
The KPR also has a sloping front to better support the part of the book 
not on the scanning glass, and allows you to flip the book over when a 
page is done and scan in the reverse direction, thereby allowing you to 
use only one side of the scanner, and to be able to push the other near 
to a wall.  The arkenstone one makes you move the book over to the other 
side of the scanner to read the other page.
     While the 400 DPI scanner will help in reading smaller print, I 
don't beleive it is as good for reading bound books as the KPR book-edge 
scanner.
     By the way, I mentioned my concerns to Kurzweil along with my 
intension to write a more complete comparison article for a magazine, and 
they're sending me a KPR with beta 2.0 to play with for a month to allow 
me to include it in the article as well.

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Chip.Orange@f778.n115.z1.fidonet.org (Chip Orange) (07/25/90)

Index Number: 9479

[This is from the Blink Talk Conference]

Hi Donald,
     I was using version 1.1 of the KPR firmware and don't understand 
why, if you were using that version, you had so much trouble.  It is as 
good over-all as the Arkenstone on the first pass, and on the second 
after it has "learned", it generally is better.
     Yes, I know very well that the two products are aimed at different 
markets, and therefore was only trying to compare them on their general 
reading machine like characteristics.  This is certainly a trait they 
have in common, and a very valid comparison.
     I am not sure what all "extra capabilities" you feel the Arkenstone 
has that the KPR doesn't.  The two I can think of are dot-matrix print, 
and landscape print.  That is it, and the PC/KPR has both of those as 
well.  By the way, Kurzweil is shipping me a PC/KPR to review as well 
before I write an article on the subject.
     One last point that comes to mind is the speed of scanning.  I 
didn't mention it in the review, and should have.  I found that the KPR 
scans an average page in about 45 seconds, while the Arkenstone takes 
about 90.  This rule of twice as long generally holds as far as I can 
tell.  Will be interested to see how the PC/KPR does here.
  
     Chip

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Tandy.Way@f6.n377.z1.fidonet.org (Tandy Way) (07/25/90)

Index Number: 9493

[This is from the Blink Talk Conference]

 MW>         In addition to your informative "comparison" message I 
 MW>         would like to mention that the Arkenstone is not 
 MW>  compatable with a Packard Bell BIOS...something worth noting 
 MW>  before an equipment purchase. 
I should be further noted that the paccard bell bios gives a lot of
problems with software and hard ware compatability so to say that it is
a compatible clone would misslead some.  So guys and galls when you are
out there purchasing computers might better steer clear of packard bell
no matter what the sales pitch.
tandy

 MW> --- via Silver Xpress V2.24 [NR]
 MW>  * Origin: BlinkLink - Perceiving is believing! 412-766-0732 
 MW>  (1:129/89.0) 

... PEOPLE WHO LIVE IN GLASS HOUSES USE WINDEX.

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Gary.Petraccaro@f90.n129.z1.fidonet.org (Gary Petraccaro) (07/25/90)

Index Number: 9495

[This is from the Blink Talk Conference]

Chip,

     After responding to your message I remembered about one Les Barr left
some time ago.  He was talking about doing some scanning for his wife and
printed some material which he had scanned into a file.  It seemed to be
from a romance novel required for one of her courses.  What struck me was
that the Arkenstone appeared to do a significantly better job with this
material than I thought the Kurzweil would have.  I had tried to get the
Kurzweil to read a standard mass market paperback book and made little
headway.  With Les attempt, you could follow the story line fairly well
even though there were dropouts as one would expect.  The Kurzweil did very
well with trade sized paperbacks and probably would do at least as well
with hard covers.  Please, if you can, check out my impressions.

     On another matter, could you also report on the handling of the kind
of software manual where they print sample screens?  As I remember it, some
manuals print these in color so that the screen and page look similar (not
certain of this, though).

                                Gary

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Gary.Petraccaro@f90.n129.z1.fidonet.org (Gary Petraccaro) (07/28/90)

Index Number: 9581

[This is from the Blink Talk Conference]

     You should be ok if it's an unmodified Phoenix BIOS.  Check for the
version.

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Les.Barr@f41.n147.z1.fidonet.org (Les Barr) (07/28/90)

Index Number: 9584

[This is from the Blink Talk Conference]

 MW-"Don,
 MW-"        I recently attended an Arkenstone demo at the University of
 MW-"Pittsburgh and during the demo Dessie Page mentioned that the 
 MW-"Arkenstone
 MW-"was compatible with everything except a Packard Bell BIOS.  Well, I 
 MW-"was
 MW-"a little disheartened with that statement because I had just purchased 
 MW-"a
 MW-"Packard Bell 286.  When I had my Sounding Board installed I was told
 MW-"that my machine contained a Phoenix Bios so I assume I could use an
 MW-"Arkenstone.  Dessie, are you out there?  Maybe you could enlighten us 
 MW-"on this subject.

Maggi,

I am an ARKENSTONE Rep so I hope I'll do.  I have just spoken with
the tech at ARKENSTONE, and as far as either of us has been able to
acertain, there has only been one report of a Packard Bell computer
not working with the ARKENSTONE hardware.

This was a Packard Bell model 5, with a built in VGA card, and very
possibly could have been solved, but the customer opted to buy
another computer to run their ARKENSTONE on instead of working out
the memory addressing problem.  Since I am writing this late at
night, I have no way of verifying which system this was, but from
the sound of it with a built in VGA, it was most likely a 386
system.  ARKENSTONE is reluctant to say, "No the ARKENSTONE will
not work with Packard Bell Bios," but cannot say, "Yes it will"
either.  There is just no conclusive evidence either way.  The only
conclusive way to find out if it will work with your particular
computer system, is to try it out on your system.

If you buy an inexpensive system, there is always a chance you are
not getting exactly an IBM/compatible system, and there is a
possibility that the ARKENSTONE will not work with it.

We are currently advising customers to buy their clones with the
contengency that it will work with the ARKENSTONE OCR setup, before
the sale is final.

You can also get some solace by inquiring whether the system you
are buying has a standard 8 megahertz bus.  If it has a ten
megahertz bus, chances are that it will not work with the
ARKENSTONE OCR, and you are not getting a true clone.

Hope this helps,

-Les B

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Mary.Otten@p0.f1055.n261.z1.fidonet.org (Mary Otten) (04/13/91)

Index Number: 14823

[This is from the Blink Talk Conference]

I'm late getting in on this discussion. The kind sysop of the Keeping
Room just got this echo. So, if you'll forgive me, I'm wondering why you
like the pc-kpr versus the arkenstone? You're the first one I've heard
that likes kpr better. I know you said pc kpr, and I've never seen that,
and all the comparrisons I've heard are between kpr and arkenstone, and
arkenstone was better. We have some kind of kurzweil scanner at work,
and it may be with that sight oriented software you mentioned. Since the
computer it's on doesn't have speech, the blind folks can't set the
software and as often as not, the scanner works, well like crap. So,
what is the pc kpr? How much is it and why is it better than arkenstone?
Any info would be appreciated. The only bad thing I've heard about
arkenstone is that the documentation is terrible and it can be confusing
to run if you're not a computer genius. Is pc krp easier? Doesn't sound
like it if that discover software is as complicated as you say.

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Dave.Tanner@p0.f210.n273.z1.fidonet.org (Dave Tanner) (04/13/91)

Index Number: 14825

[This is from the Blink Talk Conference]

Thanks for your answer.  You can get 400 DPI with the Arkenstone by
using the Panasonic 505 or 506 scanners, but the HP Scan Jet Plus,
while rated at 600 DPI actually only does 300 DPI as you mention in
your message.  This is something that I hope arkenstone will do
soon is to fully use the capabilities of that scanner.

You are also correct that a document placed on the scanner upside
down does take longer to scan, but I doubt it takes as long as
redoing the entire scan 3 or four times till you get it placed on
the sdcanner in the proper direction.  In addition I have already
ran into things, mainly magazines and print-outs that were too wide
to place them on the scanner one particular way and be able to scan
the entire page.

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Christopher.Hill@p233.f4115.n124.z1.fidonet.org (Christopher Hill) (04/13/91)

Index Number: 14836

[This is from the Blink Talk Conference]

The pckpr comes with two software packages. The first is the pckpr
package which is a breeze to use, and does a pretty good job, in my
opinion.  It doesn't have all the fancy features like recognizing
when a page is turned the wrong way, but I can usually figure that
one out for myself.

The discover software, like I might have mentioned isn't easy to
use, at least at first.  Once you get used to it though, it does a
great job on long documents like books.  For short things like
bills, the pckpr is easier to use because there's practically
nothing to change.  For books on the other hand, I'll often pick a
page at random, and scan it several times, changing the settings,
until I get it as good as possible, then use these settings for the
whole book.  I use the discover software, mainly because it'll let
me scan pages to image format, then convert them later, like when
I'm asleep.  The arkenstone cando this as well, but my friend has
never gotten his to make small enough image files to make it
practical.  My images usually are about 150K so I can fit 150 pages
or so onto my hard disk, before I've got to convert.  Other things
the discover has which I haven't found in the arkenstone is the
ability to change how the text is translated, such as lexical
context, and 16 levels of brightness.  Sometimes a change of 1 can
make all the difference in the world.  My advice: try getting
speech on the machine with the kerzweil scanner, you might be
surprised.  Later..
 Chris

data is just data, information is useful.

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Jim.Fruchterman@p0.f89.n129.z1.fidonet.org (Jim Fruchterman) (04/13/91)

Index Number: 14841

[This is from the Blink Talk Conference]

Hi, I just dropped in on this thread and thought I'd add a little
bit.  Batch processing is where you scan now, recognize later.  You
spend a half hour scanning the pages of a book, two at a time, saving
the images on disk, one scan every twenty or thirty seconds.  The
recognition, which might take two or three minutes a pair of pages,
is done later while you aren't slaving over the scanner.  It is a
really big win over scanning for four or five hours waiting for each
page to finish.

I want to point out that Arkenstone ships two major interfaces with
each system: EasyScan and ArkScan.  ArkScan is the standard Calera
commercial menu system wuth the new Arkenstone features of automatic
orientation, quick speech, tone feedback, verbosity settings, prompt
settings, user dictionaries, etc. added into it, and, made so it works
smoothly with access device.  The benefit is that it offers a menu
interface instead of the command driven easyscan interface, for people
who like menus better than command driven stuff.  An advantage compared
to the Kurzweil menu system is that you don't have to step through
each menu choice to change something - you can go directly to it.

On the HP ScanJet Plus 600 dpi issue - that is marketing hype that
HP got dragged into.  All scanners commonly available have 300 dpi
or 400 dpi scanning elements.  Those who claim more than their scanning
element are doing pixel doubling or averaging.  This adds no more
information for OCR and slows done the process.  Running an HP at
more than 300 dpi is a waste of time.  The Panasonic is the unit that
we recommend for 400 dpi scanning, for people who really need to read
small stuff.  But remember, the Calera spec for point size reading
using 300 dpi images is the same as the Kurzweil 400 dpi spec...
jim f

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Daveed.Mandell@p0.f460.n101.z1.fidonet.org (Daveed Mandell) (04/13/91)

Index Number: 14844

[This is from the Blink Talk Conference]

The discovery software coves with print docs for the sighted.  It
has not been made accessible for us.  I tried to get info on how
the PC--KPR deals with faxes, but after taling to thre people over
a day and a half, we finally agred on the idea that I could get the
Dsicover software, but it wuldn't even deal with the image files I
wuld need to use.  And, I would b on my own with the package.
Arkenstone users get image-procesing software that has accessible
documentation with it.  It's part of the Calera sftware,and
integrated into the whole package!  I also thik Arkenstone is far
more resposive to its customers.  --Daveed---

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Grant.Downey@p0.f89.n129.z1.fidonet.org (Grant Downey) (04/13/91)

Index Number: 14859

[This is from the Blink Talk Conference]

On April 4, 1991 we are going to be having a demonstration here
in El Paso of the Arkanstone reader by A O S of Austin along
with the P C KPR.  A O S is really pushing the P C KPR and are
giving the Arkanstone sort of the seccond billing so to speak.
Don't get me wrong, the Poop sheet they sent me clearly stated
demonstration of the Arkanstone and P C KPR but then went into a
story about Raymond Kurzweil.  Is the PC KPR supposed to be
haster than the Personal Reader?  I guess what is stumping me is
what are the differences.  It seems as though to get a PC KPR
would be more of what we already have in the Personal reader.
It seems as though the Arkanstone would offer us some new and
technically better options. Grant

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Mary.Otten@p0.f1055.n261.z1.fidonet.org (Mary Otten) (04/20/91)

Index Number: 15074

[This is from the Blink Talk Conference]

Hi Grant. I obviously have no personal experience with either machine,
but somebody over on Genie suggested that the Kurzweil was better, that
is more acurate and faster if you use the discover software. Apparently
Kurzweil has 2 softwares, if that's a word, for the kpr. One is like
wiat you have with the stand-alone kpr, inflexible and all that, and the
other is called discover, made for sighted users, aut apparently usable
by a blind person if you're persistent. The guy described it as having
more settings that a 747, so I'm not sure how practical it is, but he's
using it. So, maybe you need to check out both kinds of software. I
don't know anything about pc kpr cost. I like the Arkenstone people, so
I hope their product is truly compeditive. I'd rather buy from them than
from xyrox, if you know what I mean. Regards.

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William.Wilson@f89.n129.z1.fidonet.org (William Wilson) (04/20/91)

Index Number: 15079

[This is from the Blink Talk Conference]

 MO> discover software. Apparently Kurzweil has 2 softwares, if
 MO> that's a word, for the kpr. One is like wiat you have with the
 MO> stand-alone kpr, inflexible and all that, and the other is
 MO> called discover, made for sighted users, aut apparently usable
 MO> by a blind person if you're persistent.

Mary,
     Is it just me, or doesn't there seem to be an analogy here with the
AI/Configurability thread?

      Sure seems to me that these things shouldn't have to be mutually
exclusive!  I mean, if the Discover software can add so much to the
accuracy of the PC-Kursweil, why the heck can't it be speech, and thus
USER friendly as well?

     Yes all you technical types, I realize there may be a hardware
hurdle or something like that which prevents this at this point, but
hey, if they're going to resolve the graphical user interface problem
for us, this one ought to be easy for them!
                                                        Willie

... BlinkTalk, Dr. Deb and Silver in Pittsburgh!

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Uucp: ..!{decvax,oliveb}!bunker!hcap!hnews!129!89!William.Wilson
Internet: William.Wilson@f89.n129.z1.fidonet.org

Jim.Fruchterman@p0.f89.n129.z1.fidonet.org (Jim Fruchterman) (04/25/91)

Index Number: 15164

[This is from the Blink Talk Conference]

Hey, Willie, the problem with Discover isn't that it isn't accessible,
but rather it is cumbersome to use with speech: nested menus, direct
screen writes, all that stuff.  TrueScan used direct screen writes,
too, which is why there are now a dozen different front ends for
TrueScan: EasyScan, IRIS, OsCaR, Docuread IDB, etc.  The impression
that I have of Discover isn't that it is more accurate per se, but
that it gives you access to more features that are shielded from the
user.  The PC-KPR is trying to make a less complicated menu interface
and so it eliminates features that are there on the board that both
products share(and scanner too).
One of the problems of OCR products is that commercially they are
sold to power user types: who else spends $5000 and up on a time-saving
peripheral?  That's why TrueScan only works on an AT- power users
weren't buying XTs three years ago.  The interfaces are aimed at the
sophisticated PC user.  The application of OCR as a reading system
attracts a less power-user crowd: many are moving to the PC for the
OCR!  The challenge for vendors is to satisfy both user camps: the
people who are the visually impaired power users and the people who
just want it to read and they don't want to learn about the PC at
all.  That's one reason why we took the standard TrueScan interface
and made it work better with speech: its aimed at the power user.
 EasyScan is aimed at the beginning user.  It still is too complex

for the non-PC person, so there is pressure to simplify it more...

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Uucp: ..!{decvax,oliveb}!bunker!hcap!hnews!129!89.0!Jim.Fruchterman
Internet: Jim.Fruchterman@p0.f89.n129.z1.fidonet.org

robertj@tekgen.bv.tek.com (Robert Jaquiss) (04/25/91)

Index Number: 15213

I use an Arkenstone at work.  The Arkenstone software is designed
to allow a blind user to easily set the configuration.  Because it
is in a PC you can save the configuration in a file so next time
you are reading that same document you can easily set your system
to read the way you want it to.  There are a lot of settings but
you don't usually have to deal with them.  The capability is there
though if you need to change something you can.  The Arkenstone can
also tell you which way is up on your document so you can easily
handle landscaped stuff.

	Robert Jaquiss 

Internet: robetj@tekgen.bv.tek.com