Mika.Pyyhkala@p0.f460.n101.z1.fidonet.org (Mika Pyyhkala) (04/13/91)
Index Number: 14820
[This is from the Blink Talk Conference]
I attend Boston College.
The tuition is about $20 thousand per year, and they
don't give you much help.
It's definetely a private institution.
Basically, in terms of the brailling, the
Coordinator Of Services For Physically Challenged Students told
the administration that they had to pay under federal rules, and
the ADA, and that if they didn't pay that the school could be
subject to lawsuits, and withdrawal of federal funding. They
agreed to pay. The coordinator also contacted other academic
institutions to ask persons in his position if they felt that
braille was a reasonable accomodation, and they told him they
believed it was. Therefore, he included this in his
correspondents with the administration.
--
Uucp: ..!{decvax,oliveb}!bunker!hcap!hnews!101!460.0!Mika.Pyyhkala
Internet: Mika.Pyyhkala@p0.f460.n101.z1.fidonet.orgStew.Bowden@f6.n377.z1.fidonet.org (Stew Bowden) (04/13/91)
Index Number: 14853
[This is from the Blink Talk Conference]
Hi Gary: well, I am not sure what a person does if he/she has no
career in mind. I can only tell you what happened to me. I majored in
foreign affairs in college. Took the state foreign service exam at
the conclusion of my third year in school. Was told going in that of
the 350 persons taking the exam, they only plamned to hire the
highest 11 people. When the exam came back, I was ranked 7th and
thought I had it made. Turned out, they refused to hire me because I
couldn't see. I had to quickly decide what I wanted to do. After a
two-week drunk, I realized I couldn't make it that way, so decided to
put what I had learned to use in teaching. That's how I got in
education. Guess this is a long way of saying I'm never sure a person
at 18 or 20 years of age knows exactly what he/she wants to do. It's
harder for blind people because they don't have the military to help
them. Too bad, too. Anyway, not sure I have all the answers or any of
them for that matter, but for what it's worth, those are my personal
experiences.
--
Uucp: ..!{decvax,oliveb}!bunker!hcap!hnews!377!6!Stew.Bowden
Internet: Stew.Bowden@f6.n377.z1.fidonet.orgMary.Otten@p0.f1055.n261.z1.fidonet.org (Mary Otten) (04/20/91)
Index Number: 15075
[This is from the Blink Talk Conference]
I agree with you, Willy, in your comments about who should and shouldn't
learn braille. I"m all for teaching it to anywho can really make use of
it better than print, but, if a little kid who has partial sight isn't
motivated to learn it and you force him, he'll probably hate it, not
want to learn it etc. I nknow of cases where they blind fold partials
and make them learn braille that way, so they can't use their eyes and
cheat. Well, I guess I understand why they do it, but what about the
emotions, resentment frustration, etc, that such treatment could and
probably would arpoouse arouse in the kids? From my own experience, I
know that if I don't see the reason to learn something and you make me
learn it anywayk, I'll learn it to get the grade, e.g. math in my case,
but I"ll forget it the day I walk out. So, I suppose, if they'd made you
learn braille, I assume you have or had partial vision, you'd have
probbably forgotten it soon after. What I think is a crime is tht too
many school systems are taking kids with no usable vision and, instead
of teaching them the same kind of braille reading skills as I had to
learn, they're letting them get by with tapes, and readers and people to
whom they can dictate their work, tests etc. Thast's criminal in my
opinion, far worsae worse than letting partially sighted kids with
usable vision and a reasonable chance to maintain that vision get away
without learing braille.
--
Uucp: ..!{decvax,oliveb}!bunker!hcap!hnews!261!1055.0!Mary.Otten
Internet: Mary.Otten@p0.f1055.n261.z1.fidonet.orgGary.Petraccaro@f90.n129.z1.fidonet.org (Gary Petraccaro) (04/20/91)
Index Number: 15082
[This is from the Blink Talk Conference]
-> In a message to William Wilson <04-01-91 16:58> Mary Otten wrote:
->
-> MO> probbably forgotten it soon after. What I think is a crime
-> MO> is tht too many school systems are taking kids with no
-> MO> usable vision and, instead of teaching them the same kind
-> MO> of braille reading skills as I had to learn, they're
-> MO> letting them get by with tapes, and readers and people to
-> MO> whom they can dictate their work, tests etc. Thast's
-> MO> criminal in my opinion, far worsae worse than letting
-> MO> partially sighted kids with usable vision and a reasonable
-> MO> chance to maintain that vision get away without learing
-> MO> braille.
Don't know about worse or not, but, about the criminal part, I agree.
While I don't find much total use for braille, there's no substitute for
what it gives one in the formative years and for the handiness of it (if I
can put it that way).
--
Uucp: ..!{decvax,oliveb}!bunker!hcap!hnews!129!90!Gary.Petraccaro
Internet: Gary.Petraccaro@f90.n129.z1.fidonet.orgWalter.Siren@p18.f5.n396.z1.fidonet.org (Walter Siren) (04/23/91)
Index Number: 15087
[This is from the Blink Talk Conference]
MO> I agree with you, Willy, in your comments about who should and shouldn't
MO> learn braille. I"m all for teaching it to anywho can really make use of it
MO> better than print, but, if a little kid who has partial sight isn't
MO> motivated to learn it and you force him, he'll probably hate it, not want
MO> to learn it etc. I nknow of cases where they blind fold partials and make
MO> them learn braille that way, so they can't use their eyes and cheat. Well,
MO> I guess I understand why they do it, but what about the emotions,
MO> resentment frustration, etc, that such treatment could and probably would
MO> arpoouse arouse in the kids? From my own experience, I know that if I don't
MO> see the reason to learn something and you make me learn it anywayk, I'll
MO> learn it to get the grade, e.g. math in my case, but I"ll forget it the day
MO> I walk out.
Mary are you going to tell me that you can't add 2plus 2? You did
not forget all of your math. That is why most places have to
have calculators today, because kids were not made to learn their
math.
As far as not liking something, to say that you won't learn it. I
really did not like any school, but I would like to think that I
learned something. AS far as that goes, as most kids if they like
school, and the majority will say no. I think that is what is
wrong with schools today, they don't want to make kids learn what
they should learn. We were not asked what we wanted to learn, but
we were told to learn it, and most of us learned it in spite of
ourselves. Most kids at a very young age, don't know what they
want to learn, so you have to expose them to all you can, untill
they are capable of choosing for themselves. Now, that is not an
argument for teaching braille to someone who does not need it.
It's true, that doctors do make mistakes in their predictions, but
if there is any doubt, then teach them the braille, and if they
don't need it, they come out ahead.
Walter
--
Uucp: ..!{decvax,oliveb}!bunker!hcap!hnews!396!5.18!Walter.Siren
Internet: Walter.Siren@p18.f5.n396.z1.fidonet.orgDonna.Siren@p19.f5.n396.z1.fidonet.org (Donna Siren) (04/25/91)
Index Number: 15174
[This is from the Blink Talk Conference]
MO> better than print, but, if a little kid who has partial sight isn't
MO> motivated to learn it and you force him, he'll probably hate it, not want
MO> to learn it etc.
I didn't want to learn a lot of what I was forced to learn.
History bored me and I was terrible in math. There were other
subjects that I hated with a passion, but I had no choice but to
learn them. If a partial learns braille and doesn't use it, then
that's his choice, but there are a lot of them that do. I talked
to a friend about this--she's a partial and she apparently isn't
going to lose what sight she has. She was taught braille in school
and she is very happy to have learned it. Even though she can read
large print, she does a lot of her reading in braille or on tape.
Maybe others would rather not use braille, but then we all had
subjects forced on us that we may never make use of.
Donna
--
Uucp: ..!{decvax,oliveb}!bunker!hcap!hnews!396!5.19!Donna.Siren
Internet: Donna.Siren@p19.f5.n396.z1.fidonet.orgChristopher.Hill@p233.f4115.n124.z1.fidonet.org (Christopher Hill) (04/25/91)
Index Number: 15178
[This is from the Blink Talk Conference]
As for braille in college. I couldn't agree more. I learned
braille way back in elementary school, used it all through school,
until I got to college. The only brtaille book I've had here is my
Spanish book, and I had to really get that one in advance. As far
as my calculus and computer books go, I've had em all on tape. I
don't think I've suffered. my g p a is above 3.0. I hate getting
magazines in braille. It's kinda hard to hold onto the back
issues, when you don't have anywhere to put em. Not only that, my
braille reading speed is down right sluggish compared to what I can
do with tape or computer.
My main use for braille is to take notes form my computer for
things like papers etc, and to look ant programs which I can't make
work.
Even if it were possible for me to get more braille textbooks, it
would be a tremendous waste of resources, and a lot of hastle.
Later..
Chris
data is just data, information is useful.
--
Uucp: ..!{decvax,oliveb}!bunker!hcap!hnews!124!4115.233!Christopher.Hill
Internet: Christopher.Hill@p233.f4115.n124.z1.fidonet.orgStew.Bowden@f6.n377.z1.fidonet.org (Stew Bowden) (04/25/91)
Index Number: 15182
[This is from the Blink Talk Conference]
Hi Willie: I certainly that there are unresolved questions especially
regarding the partially sighted and braille. I can remember a time
when one of the schools I attended forced all sighted kids there to
learn braille. This caused a mixed bag when it came to reading. Those
forced to learn braille were, in most instances poor readers in both
mediums. There were exceptions of course but generally that was the
case. Then, too, there are those partials who absolutely rebell and
refuse to learn braille even when it is forced upon them. Should we
fail them accademically simply because they refused to learn braille?
I don't think so. Its an interesting subject though, and I'm sure
there are countless other opinions out there. Isn't it interesting
how each of us in our own way approach each subject from our own
experiential base.
--
Uucp: ..!{decvax,oliveb}!bunker!hcap!hnews!377!6!Stew.Bowden
Internet: Stew.Bowden@f6.n377.z1.fidonet.orgStew.Bowden@f6.n377.z1.fidonet.org (Stew Bowden) (04/25/91)
Index Number: 15183
[This is from the Blink Talk Conference]
Hi Gary: actually I more than agree with you. In my opinion, today
the blind person better have several careers just in case he/she runs
into the same kind of barriers I did. I know, we have laws to protect
us from that sort of thing today, but I don't honestly believe they
work. If someone wishes not to employ a person because he/she is
blind, they will find a way to do that. So I guess one best try and
be as flexible as possible, with the hope that that flexibility will
see them through.
--
Uucp: ..!{decvax,oliveb}!bunker!hcap!hnews!377!6!Stew.Bowden
Internet: Stew.Bowden@f6.n377.z1.fidonet.orgSteve.Gomes@f810.n104.z1.fidonet.org (Steve Gomes) (04/25/91)
Index Number: 15196
[This is from the Blink Talk Conference]
hi stu well that is true about an employer if you are blind and he
don't wanna hire you he is not gonna do it and if you make the law
force him to hire he will make you so miserable that you will quit
--
Uucp: ..!{decvax,oliveb}!bunker!hcap!hnews!104!810!Steve.Gomes
Internet: Steve.Gomes@f810.n104.z1.fidonet.orgMary.Otten@p0.f1055.n261.z1.fidonet.org (Mary Otten) (04/25/91)
Index Number: 15200
[This is from the Blink Talk Conference]
Hi Donna ant others who have entered messages on this subject since my
last. I"m not saying that kids shouldn't be asked to learn things that
don't immediately interest them. What I am saying however, is that there
is a limited amount of time available in the school day. If a kid can
read print reasonably well, why distract the kid and have them learn
braille, if there's no reasonable chance they'll ned that skill later>?
Aren't you taking time away that the child could be using to learn
another subject or improve his or her print reading, read more,
whatever? As I say, I use braille, couldn't get along without it. But I
have ac a couple of partialy sighetd friends who had to learn braille
with that blindfold method. They both hated it, didn't learn it wel and
today don't use it, even though, in the one guy's case, he could
probably benefit. Mypoint is, they were forced to learn and didn't, at
least not well, and now, years later, the one guy who could use braile
has pretty limmited skill. I think math and history etc aren't
comparable to braille. Braille is a method of accessing information, as
is print. Math and history areareas of information. Kids need to be
exposed to broad categories of information while young, so they can
develop and later go on to do what they want, specialize in what
interests them. But nobody in his right mind suggests that everyone has
to be exposed to multiple ways of accessing information. No. We use the
means of access which is most efficient for us and which we have a
reasonable expwectaiton of being able to continu to use. I'd still
rather concentrate my efforts and the public's dollars on making sure
that kids who can't read print efficiently must learn braille, fi if
they are educationally competent, and learn it well.
--
Uucp: ..!{decvax,oliveb}!bunker!hcap!hnews!261!1055.0!Mary.Otten
Internet: Mary.Otten@p0.f1055.n261.z1.fidonet.orgrobertj@tekgen.bv.tek.com (Robert Jaquiss) (04/25/91)
Index Number: 15214 I aggree with you Mary that forcing braille reading may cause resentment. Being totally blind I didn't have to deal with the issue. I read braille and didn't know what a talking book was until the seventh grade. One test of whether to learn braille is if the student can take notes names, phone numbers using large print and two weeks later read the note then he/she may not need braille. The speakers at a Parents Of Blind Children seminar talked about portable systems. I.E. a slate and stylus or paper and pen. Everyone needs a way to take a name or number without using a $1000 portable computer or a tape recorder. Robert Jaquiss Internet: robertj@tekgen.bv.tek.com
Gary.Petraccaro@f90.n129.z1.fidonet.org (Gary Petraccaro) (05/04/91)
Index Number: 15364
[This is from the Blink Talk Conference]
Margo,
Yep. If you can't get any speed with print, go to braille. No
question. On the other hand, and bear in mind that I'm not sure if this is
even possible, if a person can use a hand-help magnification device to read
normally obtainable print, then stick with it. Let me be as clear as I can
be, and then I'll shut up. Say I can use a device which will let me carry
it around and read regular sized print at a reasonable clip, whatever a
good braille reader can read braille at, in that case, I stick with print.
If there's no such device available, and it's a question of aggravation and
headache, I go to braille. I believe that there's more braille stuff
around than large print. Until the publishers get it into their heads that
our aging population will mean more bucks for them with large print
versions of books available, I suspect that will continue to be the case.
Now, everything I've said in the first part takes for granted that the
person has a reasonably stable condition which, for what it's worth, I
define as something that will last for better than 5 years. I figure that
if a condition deteriorates slower than that, the kid will resist switching
back and forth. Probably if the time scale goes faster, the kid can be
gotten around. Kids can normally be taught stuff and they're so
retentative when young that they will remember in spite of themselves.
Even a retentative kid will forget over time, though, and I guess that the
time period would be 5 years--might be shorter or longer. Anyhow, anything
you have to do twice, you should put off. There are enough tactile games
you can use to keep people aware of their senses until you need to do
something more. How's that?
--
Uucp: ..!{decvax,oliveb}!bunker!hcap!hnews!129!90!Gary.Petraccaro
Internet: Gary.Petraccaro@f90.n129.z1.fidonet.orgMargo.Downey@f60.n382.z1.fidonet.org (Margo Downey) (05/14/91)
Index Number: 15564
[This is from the Blink Talk Conference]
Lorretta, hi! I'm not Stu but have a few things to say about exit rows.
the NFB has conducted mock drills which shows that blind people with canes can
maneuver out of the exits. Now, I know a mock drill isn't the same as "the
real thing." However, think about the panic which can ensue on an airplane
that's about to crash or whatever by all the passengers in that plane. The
blind person is at an advantage when the lights go out in the plane's cabin.
Also, I have always--well, most of the time--automatically received
instruction on the location of exits, how to use the doors, and even how to
get out with a guide dog--this was taught to me by Continental Airlines. And,
even if people get hurt--and they do--getting out of exits and sliding down
the slides, for example, well, that's better than dying, isn't it?
And, I'll tell you what . . . I'm damn sure not going to wait "for someone to
come back and get me" in case of an emergency--airline people tell me
that--but I firmly but nicely tell them that I won't wait--I am not
expendable--hey! Loretta! I'm too ornery to die now. (grin! (grin!)
Anyway, this is certainly an interesting discussion--and am glad you're with
us--diving into all this stuff. Take care.
--
Uucp: ..!{decvax,oliveb}!bunker!hcap!hnews!382!60!Margo.Downey
Internet: Margo.Downey@f60.n382.z1.fidonet.orgWilliam.Wilson@f89.n129.z1.fidonet.org (William Wilson) (05/21/91)
Index Number: 15750
[This is from the Blink Talk Conference]
GP> lives, flying in crashes doesn't take up even a goodly
GP> percentage of that time. Yet, ask people what issues come to
GP> mind when discussing blind activists, and guess what you'll
GP> hear.
Gary,
Even fully conscious of the fact that the NFB members posting here
are going to interpret this as anti-NFB rhetoric coming from the monitor
of BlinkTalk, rather than a single individual's disagreement with
something the NFB just happens to have high on their list of priorties,
I have to comment on your above lines..
EXCELLENT!!! In those few words you managed to sort of sum this
whole thing up for me! The typical sighted person out on the street, a
category to which I once belonged, hears all the media hype about blind
people wanting to sit in the exit row on airplanes, and says, "Why are
blind people making a big deal out of this? Even if they can open the
door as quickly as I can, don't they have anything better to bitch
about?"
Meanwhile, the NFB supposition, at least so far as I have been able
to determine, is, "If sighted people know we arn't allowed to sit in
exit rows, they will think we are less capable in general, and this will
cause them to discriminate against us in more ways, including employment
and other important ways!"
Note: The first of these positions is not only mine, but most every
sighted person's I've ever spoken to about these things. The second,
however, strikes me as being quite like Sigmund Freud's theories...even
though there is not one bit of statistical evidence to support the
claims, it sounds good, so why not accept it?
All I can say is, as a nonaligned blind person, I hope to hell the
NFB finds a new key issue at this year's convention, maybe even one I
can agree with, so I can prove that my disagreement with this one is not
related to my opinion on the NFB, but rather just on this issue!
Willie
... BlinkTalk, Dr. Deb and Silver in Pittsburgh!
--
Uucp: ..!{decvax,oliveb}!bunker!hcap!hnews!129!89!William.Wilson
Internet: William.Wilson@f89.n129.z1.fidonet.orgStew.Bowden@p0.f6.n377.z1.fidonet.org (Stew Bowden) (05/31/91)
Index Number: 15927
[This is from the Blink Talk Conference]
Hi Margo: I'm not going to quote your message to garry regarding airline
policies, but thought you might to know that in a very recent flight which I
just took, as the stewardess was explaining all the emergency procedures, she
said"should there be an emergency, a trained crew member sitting at the
emergency door will open that door. Now that doesn't preclude the crew member
being injured in a crisis, but it does mean that the primary concern of the
airlines is safety, and as for me, a traveler, I am happy about that. I agree
with willie, when he said he wished that the NFB would come up with an issue he
could agree with, so that he would not be labeled as an anti-NFB blind person. I
applaud that position, and feel the same way. Take care. Stew
--
Uucp: ..!{decvax,oliveb}!bunker!hcap!hnews!377!6.0!Stew.Bowden
Internet: Stew.Bowden@p0.f6.n377.z1.fidonet.org