Jack.O'keeffe@f26.n129.z1.fidonet.org (Jack O'keeffe) (09/25/90)
Index Number: 10616
[This is from the Silent Talk Conference]
George, there is an 8-page special supplement on cochlear implants
in the current (August 1990) issue of The Hearing Journal. You
might find it interesting and informative since you are considering
an implant, but as in everything else you must carefully distinguish
between the fact and the "hype".
You should be able to find a copy in your local library or in most
any audiologists office. If you can't locate a copy, netmail me
your address and I'll mail you my copy.
... Jack.
--
Uucp: ..!{decvax,oliveb}!bunker!hcap!hnews!129!26!Jack.O'keeffe
Internet: Jack.O'keeffe@f26.n129.z1.fidonet.orgGerry.Grimm@p0.f15.n343.z1.fidonet.org (Gerry Grimm) (10/02/90)
Index Number: 10701
[This is from the Silent Talk Conference]
Sorry Wayne...I already beat George Forster as the "first"? cochlear
implant recipient on Silentalk. I've been checking in here now
and again. I'm pretty sure I mentioned in earlier this year. I've
had a Nucleus Corp. 22-channel cochlear implant for about 3 years
now and am doing reasonably well with it....certainly better than
before (I was totally deaf for about 2 and 1/2 years). I can
understand most one on one conversations now and to some extent
use the telephone. Music, unless real basic, is pretty much
out but that wasn't unexpected.
If you or George or anyone else would like to hear more, drop me
a note....talk to you later....
--
Uucp: ..!{decvax,oliveb}!bunker!hcap!hnews!343!15.0!Gerry.Grimm
Internet: Gerry.Grimm@p0.f15.n343.z1.fidonet.orgMark.Blevis@f223.n163.z1.fidonet.org (Mark Blevis) (04/26/91)
Index Number: 15238
[This is from the Silent Talk Conference]
Why should you have a problem with entrusting a child to the care
of the cochlear implant? I missed some of the messaging so I'm
sorry if I missed that point. In any case, I know Christa
Donaldson (the Ottawa girl who received the cochlear implant) and
she has made tremendous progress since the operation. Granted
there will be some drawbacks until she is completely accustomed to
the hardware, but in no time I can see her functioning in our cruel
society which dictates the necessity for her to have had the
surgery. It's a shame that without hearing it's very hard to
funtion in the "cold cruel world" (as a grade school teacher of
mine used to call it) but without the implant... without speech,
Christa would get nowhere fast. She's just as inquisitive as the
next kid and if anyone should have gotten the implant, it is
definitely her.
--
Uucp: ..!{decvax,oliveb}!bunker!hcap!hnews!163!223!Mark.Blevis
Internet: Mark.Blevis@f223.n163.z1.fidonet.orgJay.Croft@p0.f147.n109.z1.fidonet.org (Jay Croft) (05/03/91)
Index Number: 15334
[This is from the Silent Talk Conference]
Society "dictates the necessity for her to have the surgery?" That
sounds like something happening fifty years ago in Europe.
Lots of deaf people function just fine without surgery.
And how does a cochlear implant, in the ear area, give speech, which is
produced in the chest, throat and mouth?
--
Uucp: ..!{decvax,oliveb}!bunker!hcap!hnews!109!147.0!Jay.Croft
Internet: Jay.Croft@p0.f147.n109.z1.fidonet.orgMark.Blevis@f223.n163.z1.fidonet.org (Mark Blevis) (05/03/91)
Index Number: 15338
[This is from the Silent Talk Conference]
What I meant by society dictates the need for Christa to have the
surgery is that society is not going to bend towards the deaf.
Society is not going to learn sign language so that Christa feels
comfortable. The deaf have to learn how to lip read, and have to
have surgery so that society is comfortable with them. I know that
deaf people can funtion well in society, but they have to do the
work. I would have thought that my comment was self-evident.
Also, the cochlear implant doesn't give speech, that's a known
fact. It allows a deaf person to hear mechanical representations
of noise around them, including to some extent themselves. I'm not
sure if you are deaf or not, but have you ever tried talking when
you can't hear yourself? It's just the same way that a singer in a
band needs a monitor on stage so that they can hear what they are
singing so that they don't miss any notes. And certainly, if it
can't help them distinguish sounds, recipients of the cochlear
implant can at least tell when someone is calling them.
--
Uucp: ..!{decvax,oliveb}!bunker!hcap!hnews!163!223!Mark.Blevis
Internet: Mark.Blevis@f223.n163.z1.fidonet.orgVerna.Forristal@f71.n343.z1.fidonet.org (Verna Forristal) (05/04/91)
Index Number: 15387
[This is from the Silent Talk Conference]
It is a well known fact (to people who have worked with HI) that speech is not
produced automatically, but is learned. A major protion of that learning
comes form HEARING the sounds to be produced. It is hard as hell to teach a
kid to speak when the child can't hear what you are saying. I spent many
hours working to teach HI kids to make a single sound (R and L being the
hardest). I feel that a cochlear implant is a God send for youngsters who
may be able to hear enough to learn to speak clearly as a result. Are you
HI? If so from what age? If less than 3, do others understand your speech
without difficulty? Producing sound and producing specific sounds are two
entirely different things. Please reconsider your harsh judgement, and give
the kid, her parents, and all others concerned in the decision a little
credit. They are obviously better informed on the subject than you were.
Hopefully, you are now better informed, too.
--
Uucp: ..!{decvax,oliveb}!bunker!hcap!hnews!343!71!Verna.Forristal
Internet: Verna.Forristal@f71.n343.z1.fidonet.orgTim.Smith@f429.n275.z1.fidonet.org (Tim Smith) (05/07/91)
Index Number: 15422
[This is from the Silent Talk Conference]
WHAT?! Hmmm.. Ok.. Let me say this:
Evven with this implant...
She will STILL be hard of hearing..
Still not fit in smoothly into the Hearing World.
The Implant does NOT work magic.
So, why don;t
You just accept the fact that
She is DEAF?
And LET her become a part of the deaf community?
THAT is very valuable... For it gives the person an
IDENTIFY!
If she gets this implant.. She won't be able to fit into the hearing
world..
NOR
The Deaf commmunity...
Think about it my friend, please. Don't make a mistake.
Take it from us.. Deaf people. I have been on BOTH sides.
Tim
--
Uucp: ..!{decvax,oliveb}!bunker!hcap!hnews!275!429!Tim.Smith
Internet: Tim.Smith@f429.n275.z1.fidonet.orgJay.Croft@p0.f147.n109.z1.fidonet.org (Jay Croft) (05/14/91)
Index Number: 15589
[This is from the Silent Talk Conference]
Your words: "The deaf have to learn how to lipread, and to have surgery
so that society is comfortable with them."
I've been attempting to learn lipreading for 44 of my 49 years. A study
sponsored by an oralist school some years ago found that lipreading
under the best of conditions is only 26% effective. So much for the
glories of lip-reading.
And no surgery "so that society is comfortable with them" for me, thank
you.
Alexander Graham Bell advocated the prohibition of marriage between deaf
people. You would force surgery on deaf people simply because their
ears work differently. I find this most offensive.
--
Uucp: ..!{decvax,oliveb}!bunker!hcap!hnews!109!147.0!Jay.Croft
Internet: Jay.Croft@p0.f147.n109.z1.fidonet.orgMark.Blevis@f223.n163.z1.fidonet.org (Mark Blevis) (05/14/91)
Index Number: 15600
[This is from the Silent Talk Conference]
I didn't say that I would force surgery on a deaf person so that
society would be comfortable with them. I merely stated a fact
that society expects deaf people to do the work (ie - have surgery,
learn to lipread, have implants...).
Just the same way that society decides that success in life is
dependant on how much money you earn and how much fame you gain and
I have decided that success for me is having as many friends as I
can possibly have and to be happy regarless of how much (or little)
money I have and how many people know my name. I don't think that
it's fair or necessary to force deaf people to go to special
schools to learn how to speak or lipread just because society
expects them to be like them. That's ridiculous.
And next time you attack me on my remarks read them carefully and
make sure that my remarks reflect my opinions (I have no problem
you attacking my opinions - but don't defend fact!)
--
Uucp: ..!{decvax,oliveb}!bunker!hcap!hnews!163!223!Mark.Blevis
Internet: Mark.Blevis@f223.n163.z1.fidonet.orgAnn.Stalnaker@p0.f14.n385.z1.fidonet.org (Ann Stalnaker) (05/24/91)
Index Number: 15764 [This is from the Silent Talk Conference] > A study sponsored by an oralist school some years ago found > that lipreading under the best of conditions is only 26% > effective. So much for the glories of lip-reading. I'd like to know just how many people were interviewed for this statistical study. I firmly disagree with these figures. If lipreading is so hard to learn, why are many training tapes and schools are still around? Many of our senior citizens are learing to speechread successfully - former Senator Charles Percy is an example for one. I, personally, have very few problems lipreading and I find there are many who are like me. Sure we have problems with a few words but what's so bad about that? Practicing really helps. -- Uucp: ..!{decvax,oliveb}!bunker!hcap!hnews!385!14.0!Ann.Stalnaker Internet: Ann.Stalnaker@p0.f14.n385.z1.fidonet.org
Ann.Stalnaker@p0.f14.n385.z1.fidonet.org (Ann Stalnaker) (05/24/91)
Index Number: 15766 [This is from the Silent Talk Conference] > I only know that communication is a basic human necessity, > and to make every possible attempt at giving a child unencumbered > communication is to open the entire world to that child. > I feel that it's worth the risk. I have known HI people > who were truly handicapped, and I have known HI people > who were merely slightly inconvenienced. The difference > lay in the level of ability to communicate and function > in a largely hearing world. Hi Verna, and greetings from OkieLand (soon to be TejasLand <grin>)! I couldn't have stated the above any better and this is what I've been trying to get across for some time. I've always felt one is only handicapped if they let themselves be so... As one who has a congenital profound nerve deafness and is oral, I feel all modes of communication should be available for children, including speechreading and speech. While I was never trained to speechread (was able to do so from birth and had no problems learning to speak - I am the oldest of 3 who are profoundly deaf), I do feel it is possible for anyone to learn oral communication even though it may often be frustrating and time-consuming, the rewards far overcome the frustrations. My brother's first job out of college was to teach the 5th grade at the Arkansas School for the Deaf. I recall him telling us of a 12 year old boy he had been working with saying his first word and what an emotional experience that was. Unfortunately, there was no follow-up and my brother was so often frustrated by the fact the school was so remiss in providing sufficient speech therapy for their resident students that he ended up quiting after 3 years and went on to work with the Governor's Committee in hopes of improving the sorry conditions at this school. He now is an attorney (the first deaf person to graduate from the University of Arkansas' Law School) and living in DC working on the federal level of US Board of Education - Special Education Services (under Bob Davilla). I've been around many hearing impaired people and have often been told by many they wish they had the opportunity to work with their speech and learn lipreading. Many have been so frustrated by only knowing ASL since this is a hearing world and the majority of our population do not sign and do not wish to learn. People are people and I feel it's our place to learn to communicate with the hearing, not the other way around. We sure would have fewer communication problems if one knew all modes of communication. Also, there is so much out in this big world of ours, why not be a part of it and enjoy it? I hope someday there are many improvements to help those with hearing losses or even prevent them, but in the meantime, all should work together to make life easier. Boy - I really rambled on and on, didn't I? Ah - guess we all have to state our opinions even though mine may be a bit opinionated. (grin) -- Uucp: ..!{decvax,oliveb}!bunker!hcap!hnews!385!14.0!Ann.Stalnaker Internet: Ann.Stalnaker@p0.f14.n385.z1.fidonet.org
Stephen.White@p1.f853.n681.z3.fidonet.org (Stephen White) (05/24/91)
Index Number: 15771
[This is from the Silent Talk Conference]
JC> I've been attempting to learn lipreading for 44 of my 49 years. A
JC> study sponsored by an oralist school some years ago found that
JC> lipreading under the best of conditions is only 26% effective.
JC> So much for the glories of lip-reading.
Jay, it isn't much use posting this type of stuff when it is so
easily proved wrong. It doesn't do much for your credibility, and
will cause doubt to be cast on other data that you supply.
I, for one, have far more than a meagre 26% effectiveness rate when
I am lipreading, even under the most adverse conditions. I have
lipread people successfully under starlight, in disco strobe
lights, and from just about every angle except from the back of
their heads. I only have trouble understanding about 1 in 50
people.
I'm sure Ann Stalnaker and a few other people in this echo would
have a similar degree of skill.
So, already, your statement is shown to be false and misleading.
Just because _YOU_ cannot learn lipreading, doesn't mean that
nobody else can. Everyone is different, and they find that
different things help them more than others.
I see messages from Tim Smith proclaiming that cochlear implants
are useless, and saying that he should know because he's been on
both sides of the fence.
He _DOESN'T_ know! I've seen people whose lives were a misery
before they had a cochlear implant. I have a book written by a
woman that lives in Adelaide who was on the brink of suicide before
she had a cochlear implant.
I was offered the chance for a cochlear implant when I was about 8
years old, and I responded "Yuck! I don't want a radio in my
head!". My attitude is still the same, and there is no way I would
have an implant - but the important thing is that I'm not trying to
tell other people that cochlear implants are RUBBISH!
And in a similar fashion, I'm not trying to warp statistics to
prove that signing is the best for everyone and that lipreading is
a waste of time and effort!
I happen to think that oralism has its place. I have greatly
benefitted from oralism, but I don't attempt to prove that it is
the only way, and I don't relate horror stories about signers that
have been stuck with people who can't sign.
As soon as you hardliners learn that not everyone benefits from
your way of doing things the fighting in this echo will be cut down
drastically, then we can rationally and _truthfully_ talk about our
viewpoint on various topics.
--
Uucp: ..!{decvax,oliveb}!bunker!hcap!hnews!3!681!853.1!Stephen.White
Internet: Stephen.White@p1.f853.n681.z3.fidonet.orgStu.Turk@p0.f26.n129.z1.fidonet.org (Stu Turk) (05/30/91)
Index Number: 15835
[This is from the Silent Talk Conference]
TS> At least that's how >I< feel right now, after reading that
TS> message about
TS> how easy it is to "lipread"
Tim, Stephen did not say how easy it is to lipread. He was describing how
easy it is for >HIM< to lipread. He is a better than average lipreader, that's
all.
--
Uucp: ..!{decvax,oliveb}!bunker!hcap!hnews!129!26.0!Stu.Turk
Internet: Stu.Turk@p0.f26.n129.z1.fidonet.orgrudy@mtqua.att.com (Rudy Vener) (06/02/91)
Index Number: 15937 In article <15771@handicap.news> Stephen.White@p1.f853.n681.z3.fidonet.org writes: >Index Number: 15771 > > JC> I've been attempting to learn lipreading for 44 of my 49 years. A > JC> study sponsored by an oralist school some years ago found that > JC> lipreading under the best of conditions is only 26% effective. > JC> So much for the glories of lip-reading. > >Jay, it isn't much use posting this type of stuff when it is so >easily proved wrong. It doesn't do much for your credibility, and >will cause doubt to be cast on other data that you supply. > >I, for one, have far more than a meagre 26% effectiveness rate when >I am lipreading, even under the most adverse conditions. I have >lipread people successfully under starlight, in disco strobe >lights, and from just about every angle except from the back of >their heads. I only have trouble understanding about 1 in 50 >people. Jay, Steve: Before we can make any claims about the rightness or wrongness OF THE STUDY (not the individuals ability) we would need to know how it was performed. My experience with clinical tests is that they try to eliminate extraneous variables and measure only ONE THING at a time. When I speechread I do quite a bit more than simply follow the lip movements and mechanically convert them to words. I am sure every speechreader out there makes extensive use of contextual cues, educated guesswork, knowledge of the speakers speech pattersn, and a pheneomena which for lack of a better name I call expectancy of dialogue. If the subjects were asked to interpret a number of unconnected words or even a number of unconnected sentences rather than a self consistent, self reinforcing speech then all the little additional aids we speechreaders use are lost. In this case a 26 percent accuracy rate might be pretty good. -- Rudy Vener AT&T BTL uucp: att!mtqua!rudy internet: rudy@mtqua.att.com