William.Wilson@f89.n129.z1.fidonet.org (William Wilson) (02/06/91)
Index Number: 13585
[This is from the Blink Talk Conference]
David,
In order to practice what I preach, I won't quote your whole
message to me, but basically speaking, you again avoided the major point
I was trying to make in my original to you.
You say again that you don't consider a single vending machine in
the same building as a blind vending stand operator enough of an
influence on that operator's income to be worth fighting about, and then
further go on to say that there are laws worth fighting about, and ones
that don't warrant such attention. Well, as an outsider who has watched
this thread intently for quite a while now, in fact, much before Jamal's
dismissal, I think I can form at least some sort of opinion on NFB
tactics, and for sure, I would guess that if the shoe were on the other
foot, the NFB would scream BLOODY MURDER! In fact, the one thing I have
sort of admired about the NFB perspective on issues is that they can
take something that seems trivial to most people and make
it a key goal of the Federation for changing! Yeah, yeah, I know you
can justify making the airline thing a primary issue because it "affects
the way sighted people view us", but again, this is simply the NFB
telling us what sighted people will think of us, and may have nothing to
do with reality, so I don't accept that line of argument as valid. In
the hard, cold world of reality, whether or not a blind person can sit
in the emergency seat of an airplane doesn't affect his or her daily
life one bit, yet a vending machine that dispences one candy bar to a
person who would otherwise buy it from a blind vending stand operator
does affect his or her daily life, even if it is but two bits worth!
DA> support the you and I both. Finally, you of course will never
DA> find an organization you will agree with 100 percent, unless
DA> you control it absolutely.
Yes David, that is basically what I said in my message to you, and true,
I don't think one should have to agree with an organization 100% before
joining it, but David, it is my humble opinion that the NFb is, indeed,
100% controlled, and by either an individual or a couple of individuals!
I am pretty sure that has been the claim of the disgruntled ousted
members, and by several others here, and frankly, I just havn't seen
anything to the contrary posted!
We're sort of going full circle here David, and yes, even I am
getting a little bored with it now, but all the evidence presented has
shown an organization that, if not totally controlled by an individual,
it sure as heck is controlled by a very select, and privileged few!
I am glad that you and other NFB members see your despot as an
enlightened one, but I simply don't!
Willie
... BlinkTalk, Dr. Deb and Silver in Pittsburgh!
--
Uucp: ..!{decvax,oliveb}!bunker!hcap!hnews!129!89!William.Wilson
Internet: William.Wilson@f89.n129.z1.fidonet.orgWilliam.Wilson@f89.n129.z1.fidonet.org (William Wilson) (03/26/91)
Index Number: 14170
GP> Do you have any idea when that text was posted, or what
GP> the poster's name was. I don't think I ever saw it.
Gary,
I think the text of the emergency seat placard was posted about a
month ago by Jack Stein, one of BlinkLink's local winks. It was during
one of our echo breakdowns, so perhaps it didn't get out.
GP> understand that my message which Chris quoted isn't really
GP> about the exit row, it's about the very definition of
GP> discrimination. ---
Yes, I understood that. As a matter of fact, the message I killed when
I read Lee's appeal for easing up on David used exactly the same line of
logic. I totally agree that it is a valid line of argument, and the
only reason I pointed out to Chris that we discussed this before was to
avoid turning it back into an airline emergency seat rehashing.
Willie
... BlinkTalk, Dr. Deb and Silver in Pittsburgh!
--
Uucp: ..!{decvax,oliveb}!bunker!hcap!hnews!129!89!William.Wilson
Internet: William.Wilson@f89.n129.z1.fidonet.orgDavid.Andrews@f89.n129.z1.fidonet.org (David Andrews) (03/26/91)
Index Number: 14187 [This is from the Blink Talk Conference] DA> It is important though because the airlines have chosen to DA> make blanket decisions >> DA> about us as a group, solely based on blindness and DA> their emotional response to >> DA> it, not on fact. Some blind people could handle an exit >> DA> row, some could not. >> >> Another words this is a matter of principle. The same >> applies to the vending machine issue. Whether it would put >> a blind opperator out of business is not the question in >> point, obviously it won't put him out of business, But, it >> is the principle we are talking about. let's look at it >> from the standpoint of discrimination, which you seem to >> understand better. If you let a gumball machine in the >> building, what do you tell another organization who wants >> to bring in a coke machine. If you don't let him in, then >> he can hollow discrimination. Since the income from the >> first machine is not going to the opperator, then how can >> you justify not letting the second machine. in Only >> onvolume of business, no way. As I said in an earlier messag3e, I believe that these situations should be handled by the vendor, the state licensing agency and the property in question. There will be permissible things, and nonpermissable things. With rights come responsibilities. Vendors, blind or not, can not expect to have an absolute monopoly in any building. No business person can. What is permissible should be negotiated by the parties involved. Yes, you can call everything descrimination if you try hard enough, but some kinds are more obvious then others. GP> If the airline has no restrictions on who shall GP> occupy an exit row, they must be relieved of the threat of law GP> suit in the event of a crash where this issue would come into GP> play. If it's a question of morals, this still applies. How GP> could anyone be told to take risks they would not ordinarily GP> take and then be punished for same. Will the NFB sponsor GP> legislation which takes the airline off this hook? The silence GP> is deafening. If me or mine get hurt because of one unfortunate GP> occasion in which this policy backfires, can I sue the NFB? Will GP> the NFB put itself in the stead of the airline? I can't hear GP> you... Why do I hear a very small voice whispering, "we're only GP> in it for the bucks, guy. Didn't you know that?" Gary, Maybe I am stupid, but you lost me with your statement that we are just in the airline thing for the bucks. This has cropped up before and I don't understand it. Please explain? This is not an issue that has made us any money. Now to your liability issue. The NFB has not said that there should be no restrictions on who sits in an exit row seat. In fact I think that most of us believe that there should be some restrictions and guidelines. I personally think that only trained airline personnel should sit there. The airlines say that it is a safety issue. However, they will not clear the rows entirely, or seat there people there because it would cost them some ticket sales. So, who is making money over this issue? What we object too is the position by many that all blind people are unsafe to sit in an exit row seat solely because they are blind. Yes, some are, and some are not, but blindness is only one factor. ... Your Sound Alternative -- Uucp: ..!{decvax,oliveb}!bunker!hcap!hnews!129!89!David.Andrews Internet: David.Andrews@f89.n129.z1.fidonet.org
Darrell.Shandrow@p2.f7.n300.z1.fidonet.org (Darrell Shandrow) (04/11/91)
Index Number: 14674
[This is from the Blink Talk Conference]
There is a difference between being allowed to sit in exit rows and being issued
a drivers' license. I do believe that it is generally accepted that blindness
does exclude one from driving just because of the real limit of blindness, "the
lack of necessary sight for that task". However, such a justification cannot
be made about the exit rows of aircraft.
--
Uucp: ..!{decvax,oliveb}!bunker!hcap!hnews!300!7.2!Darrell.Shandrow
Internet: Darrell.Shandrow@p2.f7.n300.z1.fidonet.orgJeff.Salzberg@f89.n129.z1.fidonet.org (Jeff Salzberg) (04/11/91)
Index Number: 14678
[This is from the Blink Talk Conference]
DS> I do believe that it is
DS> generally accepted that blindness does exclude one from driving
DS> just because of the real limit of blindness, "the lack of
DS> necessary sight for that task". However, such a justification
DS> cannot be made about the exit rows of aircraft.
OK, Darrell, next time you're on a plane, demonstrate for me - without
any instructions, of course - how to operate the emergency door.
These aren't car doors, folks; they're fairly complicated.
... The intensity of one's beliefs is not a measure of their correctness.
--
Uucp: ..!{decvax,oliveb}!bunker!hcap!hnews!129!89!Jeff.Salzberg
Internet: Jeff.Salzberg@f89.n129.z1.fidonet.orgGary.Petraccaro@f90.n129.z1.fidonet.org (Gary Petraccaro) (04/11/91)
Index Number: 14686
[This is from the Blink Talk Conference]
Jeff,
I suppose I'll take some heat for this, but, I have other problems
than the training issue. I still think that the issues are:
Whether we have the right to tell the airline how to evaluate the risks for
which it, alone, will be responsible;
In stressful situations, might not blindness even be an advantage where the
lights may have gone out?
Please note, my underlying concern in both areas is one of reality
first, theorizing hogwash, not only second, but, dead last.
--
Uucp: ..!{decvax,oliveb}!bunker!hcap!hnews!129!90!Gary.Petraccaro
Internet: Gary.Petraccaro@f90.n129.z1.fidonet.orgDarrell.Shandrow@p2.f7.n300.z1.fidonet.org (Darrell Shandrow) (04/11/91)
Index Number: 14707
[This is from the Blink Talk Conference]
JS> DS> I do believe that it is
JS> DS> generally accepted that blindness does exclude one from
JS> driving
JS> DS> just because of the real limit of blindness, "the lack of
JS> DS> necessary sight for that task". However, such a
JS> justification
JS> DS> cannot be made about the exit rows of aircraft.
JS> OK, Darrell, next time you're on a plane, demonstrate for me -
JS> without
JS> any instructions, of course - how to operate the emergency door.
JS> These aren't car doors, folks; they're fairly complicated.
Hi. I can see you point. However, I never said that the blind person needed
no instructions on how to use the exit doors. The blind person should be given
a level of instruction that is comparable to that given to the sighted. Also,
I never said that all blind persons can handle the responsibilities associated
with an exit row seat. Some can and some cannot. But that is the same with
the sighted. A drunk sighted and a drunk blink both have no business sitting
their and they both should be moved. However, an able bodied blind or sighted
person who knows how to handle such a responsibility should not be forced to
move. 73
JS>
--
Uucp: ..!{decvax,oliveb}!bunker!hcap!hnews!300!7.2!Darrell.Shandrow
Internet: Darrell.Shandrow@p2.f7.n300.z1.fidonet.orgshafer@skipper.dfrf.nasa.gov (Mary Shafer) (04/12/91)
Index Number: 14779 Darrell Shandrow wrote: > JS> OK, Darrell, next time you're on a plane, demonstrate for me - > JS> without > JS> any instructions, of course - how to operate the emergency door. > JS> These aren't car doors, folks; they're fairly complicated. >Hi. I can see you point. However, I never said that the blind person needed >no instructions on how to use the exit doors. The blind person should be given >a level of instruction that is comparable to that given to the sighted. Also, >I never said that all blind persons can handle the responsibilities associated >with an exit row seat. What you have to demonstrate is not the ability to open the door, but the ability to see if there's a fire outside that door before you fling it open and set the airplane interior on fire. The way to increase survival (the whole purpose of aircraft evacuation) is to keep the inside of the plane as habitable as possible until everyone gets out. It's also not a good idea to exit a plane into a burning pool of jet fuel and hydraulic fluid. You do not open the door onto flames. The interior of the plane is flammable and letting in a fire will set it aflame. That's why airplane doors have those little windows. Not for the great view of the scenery, but to see if it's safe to open the door for evacuation. -- Mary Shafer shafer@skipper.dfrf.nasa.gov ames!skipper.dfrf.nasa.gov!shafer NASA Ames Dryden Flight Research Facility, Edwards, CA Of course I don't speak for NASA "A MiG at your six is better than no MiG at all"--Unknown US fighter pilot
cmfaltz@phoenix.princeton.edu (Christine Marie Faltz) (04/20/91)
Index Number: 15045 This is getting maddening. First of all, have you any idea how hot a fire is--particularly one that is burning fuel? In the majority of the cases, you would be able to feel the heat right through the window AND the side of the plane. This would not be hot as in a fireplace. If one stands across from a burning house--say, across an alley--you can still feel the heat--sometimes your hair and eyebrows can be singed. In addition, have you ever heard the roar of such a fire? In all likelihood, you could probably hear it over panicked passengers. And, if you know anything about panicked people and fire, you will know that if there is a fire outside the exit door, people are going to be screaming "Fire, fire, fire!" at the tops of their lungs. I'll bet you that it is just as likely that a panicked sighted person--irrational in his orher attempt to save his/her life, will fling open the door anyway. A blind person is NOT a greater risk to the emergency evacuation of an airplane--panic, drunkenness, and stupidity are. Christine ------------------------------------------------------------------------- | Poor is the person | Christine Faltz | | whose permission | 33 Prospect Ave. | | depends upon the | Princeton, NJ 08540 | | perceptions of others. | "Who is John Galt?" | -------------------------------------------------------------------------
cmfaltz@phoenix.princeton.edu (Christine Marie Faltz) (04/20/91)
Index Number: 15047 Jeff, give me a break, please. First of all, most exit doors only require that you "PUSH,"--it says so on the door; I've asked fellow passengers. One need only have the strength to do this; most of the doors are rather heavy. In the instance that pushing is not the correct way to open a door, I have a few comments: First, one can ask for instructions before the flight; second, there are many clueless sighted people who would not be able to follow the instructions written on the door in a panicked situation; third, even if they could understand the instructions, it does not mean that they would have the strength to open the door. The average, healthy blind person CAN OPEN an exit row door; I have done it. There are many sighted folks who sit in the exit row who are clueless, intoxicated, (alcohol is served to exit row passengers) easily panicked, or emotionally disturbed, (psychological batteries are not administered to sighted passengers sitting in the exit row) or physically unfit to open the door. There are two documented cases of blind men aiding in an evacuation. I have other comments on the airport controversies. Airport security and searches. I agree that canes should be checked--it is conceivable that some moron terrorist will pretend to be blind and carry a cane with a weapon inside. However, I have been victimized by airport security personnel who hid behind the "security" line. My dog guide's harness always makes the metal detector sound. I always offer to walk through alone, without my dog, and get her on the other side. Usually, I am allowed to do this, no big deal. Twice, however, I was stopped, after being assured that the people knew theharness did this. In one case, the woman searching people was new, and did not know how to use the hand-scanner. She proceeded to handle me--between my legs,my breasts, etc. "Excuse me, but if you're not yet competent to do your job, I should not be subjected to your desire for cheap thrills," I exclaimed, shoving her hands off me. "I realize the need for hand-scanning--with the scanner--but this 'search' you're doing right now is degrading and unnecessary." She said fine, she would take me to the ladies' room and strip search me, there! (This incident, almost to the letter, happened to another friend of mine.) I toldher that if she needed it so bad that she should go out and look for it on her own time, but that I wasn't interested. She screamed somethng about "these blind upstarts" after me as I went to my gate. Secuirity? Sometimes. Maybe most of the time. But there are many people, both on and off the planes, who degrade, humiliate and otherwise single out the blind at the airport--as well as everywhere else. Personnel should know how to use the hand-scanners, and I, as a young, healthy, strong, generally calm person, should be allowed to sit in the exit row. My blindness DOES NOT preventme from opening one of those doors. ------------------------------------------------------------------------- | Poor is the person | Christine Faltz | | whose permission | 33 Prospect Ave. | | depends upon the | Princeton, NJ 08540 | | perceptions of others. | "Who is John Galt?" | -------------------------------------------------------------------------
Walter.Siren@p18.f5.n396.z1.fidonet.org (Walter Siren) (05/14/91)
Index Number: 15563
[This is from the Blink Talk Conference]
CM> From: cmfaltz@phoenix.princeton.edu (Christine Marie Faltz)
CM> Message-ID: <15047@handicap.news>
CM> Index Number: 15047
CM> Jeff, give me a break, please. First of all, most exit doors
CM> only require that you "PUSH,"--it says so on the door;
This is not true. I didn't intend to get back in this discussion
anymore, because I believe it has been beaten to death. However,
one year when the ACB convention was in ATlanta, the Eastern
airlinen conducted a seminar on how to exit airplains. We saw
various types of doors, some of the required pulling a lever, and
the exit windows, require unlatching two latches, and lifting the
windows out. Now, I am not saying this to say that blind people
couldn't learn how to do this, because we did, but to straighten
out the facts about opening exit doors.
It is strange that in this whole discussion, no one has been able
to answer my one problem with the blind sitting in the exit rows,
and that is, how is a blind person going to be able to help the
people exit the plane, and tell them which way to go after they are
out in a strange place. It is possible if you go in the wrong
direction, no telling what you will get into. There is no
substitution for sight in that case.
Walter
--
Uucp: ..!{decvax,oliveb}!bunker!hcap!hnews!396!5.18!Walter.Siren
Internet: Walter.Siren@p18.f5.n396.z1.fidonet.orgcmfaltz@phoenix.princeton.edu (Christine Marie Faltz) (05/21/91)
Index Number: 15729 As I used the word 'most' Walter, I believed it was clear that all exit doors were 'push' doors. I stated later in my posting--somethng you neglected to repost--that one has only to ask a flight attendant or fellow passenger for the instructions written on the door. As for your second concern, if you believe that the average sighted person, let alone the average blind person, is going to concern him/herself with getting others off a plane in an emergency situation, think again. Should I be in such a situation, I am getting out with no questions asked. I would expect help from no one except the flight attendant, and they, too, have the right to put their lives before mine. There are, however, people who would be willing to assist in the avacuation process--two blind foks have. Christine ------------------------------------------------------------------------- | Poor is the person | Christine Faltz | | whose permission | 33 Prospect Ave. | | depends upon the | Princeton, NJ 08540 | | perceptions of others. | "Who is John Galt?" | -------------------------------------------------------------------------
Gary.Petraccaro@f90.n129.z1.fidonet.org (Gary Petraccaro) (06/18/91)
Index Number: 16148
[This is from the Blink Talk Conference]
-> In a message to All <05-22-91 22:04> Christine Marie Faltz wrote:
->
-> CM> From: cmfaltz@phoenix.princeton.edu (Christine Marie Faltz)
-> CM> Message-ID: <15729@handicap.news>
-> CM> Index Number: 15729
-> CM>
-> CM> think again. Should I be in such a situation, I am getting
-> CM> out with no
-> CM> questions asked. I would expect help from no one except
So, now you say that your sole purpose for sitting at an exit door is
to get yourself out. Well, my reason for *Not* seating you at an exit door
would be so that I can have a higher percentage chance of getting out. The
poor little blind kid bit is just a dodge. Makes Dr. Deb's response to
Flax look better and better--I had initial reservations which you've now
dissipated.
--
Uucp: ..!{decvax,oliveb}!bunker!hcap!hnews!129!90!Gary.Petraccaro
Internet: Gary.Petraccaro@f90.n129.z1.fidonet.orgcmfaltz@phoenix.princeton.edu (Christine Marie Faltz) (06/25/91)
Index Number: 16385 Well, Gary, it would be a boring world agreed with one another. But when you tell me that you lost your 'initial reservations' because I am a self-preserving human being, I must question your interpretive abilities. "Poor little blind kid" and "dodge". Let me tell you something about me, Gary. I will allow anyone to say whatever they want in my presence, as long as it is not something which takes away what I know I am and replaces it, because of that person's inability to get beyond my blindness, with what they believe I am. My attitude bout getting out of an emergency situation holds true for any place, building, etc. regardless of the fact that I am blind and regardless of whether or ot I am near any type of exit. I don't wantpreferential treatment, just equal treatment. (When I have children, my first impulse in an emergency will most likely be to save them. Until then, I'm first, and that has absolutely nothing to do with my blindness.) Using my blindness as an excuse for ANYTHING goes against everything I believe about myself. I would not use my womanhood, myintelligence or my attractiveness as excuses or to gain privileges either. I will not tell you what to believe about emergency exit rows, but I will sure as hell forbid you to ever accuseme of using my blindness as a dodge for anything. If you suggest that you certainly don't know crap about me, my friend, and I would suggest, that if you are so easily persuaded to one side of an argument or another by statements not directly related to the issues or statements you clearly misunderstand, that you spend more time figuring out your princiles and convictions on your own. Such introspection might make you ask yourself what on earth DR. Deb's message to Marshall Flax has to do with your reply to me. And, you might also consider, while you are at it, why a man who gave me the distinct impression that he sympathizes with the KKK and other illustrious groups is sounding "better and better" to you. Then again, maybe I mis understood YOUR point -- but I doubt it. -- | Poor is the person whose permission | Christine Faltz 33 Prospect Ave. | | depends upon the perceptions of others | Princeton, NJ 08540 | "Who is John Galt?"