Mary.Otten@p0.f1055.n261.z1.fidonet.org (Mary Otten) (06/18/91)
Index Number: 16103
[This is from the Blink Talk Conference]
I was very interested in your message about matching guidedogs to
perspective owners. AS a guidedog user, currently on my second dog but
not going back to where Igot her, I'm trying to get information on any
and all schools available to me. Iliked what you said, but, and I hope
Idon't offend you, Leader, for whom Isuspect you work, has had a pretty
shaky reputation among a lot of guidedog users. Imean, there have been a
number of teams from there that haven't worked out too well. They had a
reputation for big classses and high student to instructor ratios. I'm
not trying to inslt you, as Isaid, but I am really looking for
information from schools, what breeds they have, how they match, success
or return rates etc. Has leader turned its program around in recent
years? Did Ihave a misimpression of problems they had before? Any
informatation you care to pass along would be greatly appreciated.
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Uucp: ..!{decvax,oliveb}!bunker!hcap!hnews!261!1055.0!Mary.Otten
Internet: Mary.Otten@p0.f1055.n261.z1.fidonet.orgMary.Otten@p0.f1055.n261.z1.fidonet.org (Mary Otten) (06/18/91)
Index Number: 16131
[This is from the Blink Talk Conference]
Ihope this is of interest to morethan just me, given the numerous
messages we've seen on that topic. Anyway, why did you say you wouldn't
get a Sheperd from Seeing Eye? Iknow 2 people with Sheperds from there,
one is really good, well-behaved etc. The other is apparently a good
worker, but has an unacceptable, to me, habbit of growling at strangers
while in harness. Why did you say specifically that you wouldn't get a
sheperd from there? The chance to get a sheperd is one of the reasons I
would strongly consider going there. Ilove sheperds, am on my second
one. Guess I'm prejudiced.
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Uucp: ..!{decvax,oliveb}!bunker!hcap!hnews!261!1055.0!Mary.Otten
Internet: Mary.Otten@p0.f1055.n261.z1.fidonet.orgBrad.Scott@f256.n120.z1.fidonet.org (Brad Scott) (06/18/91)
Index Number: 16158
[This is from the Blink Talk Conference]
Mary,
About three years ago we got a new admisinstation, Mr. William
C. Hansen is now the president. Prior to him, instructors had
very little to say about who was accepted for Leader Dog
training. They now have greater lattitude, with more control
over their classes. In addition, the Admissions Committee,
which is comprised of the 5 senior team captains, the Director
of Training and the Director of Admissions (me), take a very
close look at all applications. The emphasis is now on a good
background in orientation and mobility, cane travel skills. We
have also expanded our "follow up" program. We have two
x-instructors who are field representatives, they travel
throughout the US and Canada checking up on graduates and being
in a position to offer assistance. Previously, class sizes were
close to 32 students (the capacity of our dormitory), this gave
a student/instructor ratio of 1 instructor to 8 students. We
have reduced our class sizes to 24, or six students per
instructor. We have a staff of twenty trainers, most have 10 to
15 years of experience each, there are 5 or 4 who have 20 to 30
years experience. Even with the changes we are still the
largest producing school in North America, this fiscal year we
expect to have around 300 graduates, folks wanting dogs have a
tendency to come here. As for reputations, I've learned a lot
about the "dog guide" industry in general from this echo. No
matter what school you come from, the same handling problems are
experienced by all graduates, the same variables come into play.
Name one school, or for that matter, one company, where everyone
was happy with the product. There will always be unhappy folks,
like they say you can't please all of the people all of the
time. When someome has a bad experience at one school, they
will apply else where for their next dog. We process
application for individuals not wishing to go back to their
original school, and those that don't have a good time here go
elsewhere as well. I've learned not to promote one school over
another, we all have the same goal, we all run into the same
problems, our services vary slightly (geographic location,
requirements for acceptance, etc.), so obviously it's the
applicants responsibility to seek out the available information
and attend the school that best serves their needs. As to
complaints, oh well - that's the way it goes. I hear them all
day and from graduates and applicants from all over and from
every school. One woman swore she would never come back here
because we didn't go around with a cart in the morning bringing
coffee to their rooms we they woke up. She probably wanted
valet parking for her dog as well <g>. If you graduate 100
students a year and 10 percent are unhappy, the voice is carried
very far, however, if you graduate 300 and 10 percent aren't
happy, then the voice growns louder because the numbers are
greater. The point here... it's all relative. And believe me I
know.
Brad Scott
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Uucp: ..!{decvax,oliveb}!bunker!hcap!hnews!120!256!Brad.Scott
Internet: Brad.Scott@f256.n120.z1.fidonet.orgDan.Kysor@f998.n203.z1.fidonet.org (Dan Kysor) (06/18/91)
Index Number: 16161
[This is from the Blink Talk Conference]
well i really have to say firstly that the folks there at the eye
are really great and contrary to popular opinion, the school, while
you are there, is very relaxed and they do a great job but i've had
3 dogs from there, two of them were shepherds and both i loved and
both were excellent workers but both had 1. hip displasia 2. both
had developed other health problems (too numerous to go into
here...
in my personal opinion, the shepherd line leaves something to be
desired but hopefully, sometime in the future, they'll improve
their shepherd line.
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Uucp: ..!{decvax,oliveb}!bunker!hcap!hnews!203!998!Dan.Kysor
Internet: Dan.Kysor@f998.n203.z1.fidonet.orgMargo.Downey@f60.n382.z1.fidonet.org (Margo Downey) (06/18/91)
Index Number: 16185
[This is from the Blink Talk Conference]
Dan, I need to call the Seeing eye this week or next--will ask them about
their Shepherd revitalizing program--bringing back more Shepherds--apparently,
they have been using their genetics experts and computerized database at the
breeding station to help with these Shepherd problems like the hip
displasia--I shall ask them about this and report back to you. This isn't a
very broad sampling--but folks I know who have gotten Shepherds from there say
in the past, oh, 5 years, have felt that there were less problems. Let me do
some checking for you and for Mary and for whoever else interested. Maybe
Brad Scott can discuss the Shepherd thing since Leader, I think, uses them.
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Uucp: ..!{decvax,oliveb}!bunker!hcap!hnews!382!60!Margo.Downey
Internet: Margo.Downey@f60.n382.z1.fidonet.orgBrad.Scott@p0.f256.n120.z1.fidonet.org (Brad Scott) (06/21/91)
Index Number: 16280
[This is from the Blink Talk Conference]
We have been having problems finding good Shepherds as well. I can
remember the day when every trainer carried 4 or 5 good Shepherds in
their strings. We could take in 10 and wash out 2 or 3, now we probably
keep 2 or 3 out of every 10. Not sure what the problem is, maybe
excessive in-breeding. Shepherds these days seem to be very high strung
and flighty with a very short attention span. One instructor coined it
as "the big claw syndrome", they work on egg shells, as if a big claw
was going to swoop down from the sky and snatch them up. Our breeding
program has been attempting to turn it around, looking for better
breeding stock, etc., however, in the breeding arena it usually takes
two to five years of working at it before you really start to see a pay
off. One instructor here with 15 years experience breeding and showing
states the general public is to blame, more novice breeders throwing
together dogs and saturating society with tremendous numbers of
Sherherds with less than desirable attributes.
..
Brad Scott
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Uucp: ..!{decvax,oliveb}!bunker!hcap!hnews!120!256.0!Brad.Scott
Internet: Brad.Scott@p0.f256.n120.z1.fidonet.orgDan.Kysor@f998.n203.z1.fidonet.org (Dan Kysor) (06/25/91)
Index Number: 16400
[This is from the Blink Talk Conference]
well bret, could you buy shepherds from germany or are they tainted
as well? all i know is it is really heartbreaking to own those
beautiful animals... they sure guide well though. using a shepherd
as a guide is comparable to a nice ride in a catalac or lincoln and
i would stack a shepherds guiding abilities against any other breed
and the shepherd will usually be superior but all the other
factors. it's almost like one small thing starts up with these
animals and next thing you know, there's a hole sindrome of
afflictions & behaviorisms... enough to make you go nuts!! dan
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Uucp: ..!{decvax,oliveb}!bunker!hcap!hnews!203!998!Dan.Kysor
Internet: Dan.Kysor@f998.n203.z1.fidonet.orgBrad.Scott@p0.f256.n120.z1.fidonet.org (Brad Scott) (06/25/91)
Index Number: 16428
[This is from the Blink Talk Conference]
MD> Brad, you answered my question--sort of. Again, I do know about
MD> matching procedures but from what I learned at Seeing Eye I'm sure
MD> it's the same basically at Leader Dogs.
One of the criteria for selecting a dog for training is its adapability
to a wide range of siutations and circumstances. Each trainer carries
an average of 8 dogs in his or her "string". With 4 instructors on
each team, this gives the team 32 dogs to select from for a class of
approximately 24 students. We train more than we need for a given
class so we have a wide variety to select from when matching. Most of
the dogs are highly adaptable, therefore suited form most students'
working environments. Where they differ might be size, energy level,
motivation and ease of control or response to corrections. Initally,
students are assigned to instructors who have the largest number of
possible dogs that suit that persons needs. If I had three possible
dogs for a student after the first day of evaluation, then I would
tentatively be assigned that student. During the next two days, we
conduct "Juno" and continue to evaluate the student. By the end of
the second day I might have narrowed it down to two possible dogs,
and then down to the one dog best suited. If after a day or two,
additional information comes to light, I might re-evaluate my
match and pass the student on to another instructor who has a suitable
dog based on this new information. We can't, for obvious reasons,
choose a match from hundreds or even dozens of possible dogs, and we
don't need to. The 32 dogs that are ready for a class are varied in
personality and similiar traits, but they all have the ability to do
the work. Here's an example: Lets say I have a Judge who wants a dog.
There will be 10 or 12 dogs out of that 32 that are suited for that
type of working and living environment. We now narrow it down by
looking at other facts. Preference, the Judge is really looking
forward to a male, black Labrador retriever, ok lets say we have four
male black labs out of the ten or twelve. So now we narrowed it down
to four possible dogs. (Preference is important but not the most
important thing to consider, example: a 62 year old gramdmother who
requests a German Shepherd isn't likely to get one if they are all
75 pounds and up and require a seasoned handler to control, etc.)
Ok, back to the 4 possible choices... two of the four, lets say
for the sake of argument are 16 months old and have very high energy
levels, not a good choice for a Judge who will most likely sit at
his bench for 6 to 8 hours at a crack. These young go-getters
might be too restless for this amount of inactivity. In addition,
the Judge might be a first time dog handler, no experience. Those
2 young pups could sure give him a run for his money. So now we
narrowed it down to 2 possible dogs. Of the 2, one is 20 months old
and low keyed but has a bit of a mischevious streak in him, the
other, 24 months and more mature is also the right size for a man who
is 55 years old and 6 foot tall. Ok, we narrowed it down to the dog
out of the 32 available, that is best suited for this Judge. Obviously,
there is a little more to this than what was explained here, a great
deal of information about the student is determined from the "Juno"
routine, speed, gait, confidence, coordination, timing, etc. etc.
Also, we look at medical or emotional considerations, blindness; being
total or low vision, congenital or adventitious - and on and on. The
matching process is the most important consideration in dog guide work,
(as far as we are concerned), an example of the scope is the fact that
new trainers here at Leader Dogs serve a three apprenticeship under
the direction of a senior trainer. Learning how to match being an
important - on going - lesson for the new trainer. We are really
getting into a subject here that I can't do justice to it in a short
message like this, but I think I covered the jist of it.
Smooch a pooch for me... Brad
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Uucp: ..!{decvax,oliveb}!bunker!hcap!hnews!120!256.0!Brad.Scott
Internet: Brad.Scott@p0.f256.n120.z1.fidonet.org