[misc.handicap] Pathfinder Tiles

Sabina.Bilder@p0.f89.n129.z1.fidonet.org (Sabina Bilder) (05/24/91)

Index Number: 15805

A pilot study proposal has been submitted to the University of
Pittsburgh to test Pathfinder tactile tiles.  The purpose is to see
if the tiles (designed to aid and alert blind pedestrians) are
durable in cold and snowy conditions and appropriate for
installation at intersections, curb cuts, bus stops, steps and so
on.  The tiles have raised "polka dots" about one fourth inch high
and one inch round or raised bars which are oriented in the
direction of travel.  The bumps can be felt through one's shoes.
The tiles are bright yellow to provide contrast with the pavement.
Pathfinder Tiles are currently in use in the San Francisco Bay Area
(BART) subway platforms, in Sacramento, and in Toronto.

Before a decision is made to participate in this study, I'm
interested in hearing from people who are blind or have low vision
in regard to the helpfulness and/or necessity of these tiles (based
on actual experience with the tiles or on theoretical viewpoints).
I am also interested in hearing from persons with mobility
impairments and balance problems as to whether or not these tiles
would pose any threats to their safety or ease in traveling (via
wheelchair or on foot).  Again, this can be based on experience or
conjecture.

 What do you like about the tiles?  What don't you like about the
tiles?

Please respond to me in this echo or by writing or calling me:
Sabina Bilder, 412-648-7890, Disabled Student Services, 216 Wm.
Pitt Union, University of Pittsburgh, Pittsburgh, PA  15260.

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Sabina.Bilder@p0.f89.n129.z1.fidonet.org (Sabina Bilder) (05/31/91)

Index Number: 15925

[This is from the Blink Talk Conference]

A pilot study proposal has been submitted to the University of
Pittsburgh to test Pathfinder tactile tiles.  The purpose is to see
if the tiles (designed to aid and alert blind pedestrians) are
durable in cold and snowy conditions and appropriate for
installation at intersections, curb cuts, bus stops, steps and so
on.  The tiles have raised "polka dots" about one fourth inch high
and one inch round or raised bars which are oriented in the
direction of travel.  The bumps can be felt through one's shoes.
The tiles are bright yellow to provide contrast with the pavement.
Pathfinder Tiles are currently in use in the San Francisco Bay Area
(BART) subway platforms, in Sacramento, and in Toronto.

Before a decision is made to participate in this study, I'm
interested in hearing from people who are blind or have low vision
in regard to the helpfulness and/or necessity of these tiles (based
on actual experience with the tiles or on theoretical viewpoints).
I am also interested in hearing from persons with mobility
impairments and balance problems as to whether or not these tiles
would pose any threats to their safety or ease in traveling (via
wheelchair or on foot).  Again, this can be based on experience or
conjecture.

 What do you like about the tiles?  What don't you like about the
tiles?

Please respond to me in this echo or by writing or calling me:
Sabina Bilder, 412-648-7890, Disabled Student Services, 216 Wm.
Pitt Union, University of Pittsburgh, Pittsburgh, PA  15260.

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Mary.Otten@p0.f1055.n261.z1.fidonet.org (Mary Otten) (06/04/91)

Index Number: 15952

[This is from the Blink Talk Conference]

riends who use BART and say they are helpful. Given your description,
Ican't see why they would pose a particular problem to people in
wheelchairs, but, since I"m not in one, I can't say for sure. I think
that if there is a group of blind people who find them useful, it is not
a bad idea to put them in. There are some who feel that either 1, they
don't need them, so they shouldn't be put in because they represent the
blind and know what is best; or 2, it is a bad idea to put things like
these tiles in because it hurts the public immage of the blind, makes
sighted people think that all blind people need such things and cannot
get around without them. I have gotten around all my life without the
tiles, but, if Ilived in an area that had them, especially on subway
platforms, Imight find I really found them useful. That may not help
much, because it wasn't a direct testimonial either for or against, but
it is the way I feel about the subject. I've had so many arguments about
audible signals, something you didn't bring up, but which Ifeel is kind
of related, that I couldn't let this question go by without sticking in
my 2 cents worth.

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Stu.Turk@p0.f26.n129.z1.fidonet.org (Stu Turk) (06/05/91)

Index Number: 15977

 SB>  on.  The tiles have raised "polka dots" about one fourth inch high
 SB>  and one inch round or raised bars which are oriented in the
 SB>  direction of travel.  The bumps can be felt through one's shoes.
 SB>  The tiles are bright yellow to provide contrast with the
 SB>  pavement.
 SB>  Pathfinder Tiles are currently in use in the San Francisco Bay Area

   What happens to the raised dots when someone shovels the snow?  And if
someone doesn't shovel the snow, can the dots still be felt?  :-)

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Sabina.Bilder@p0.f89.n129.z1.fidonet.org (Sabina Bilder) (06/18/91)

Index Number: 16099

[This is from the Blink Talk Conference]

Thanks for your input on pathfinder tiles.  The problem that I was
referring to was noted in a study that was done regarding BART.  It
wasn't reported to be a big problem, but the way the dots are arranged
makes it a little difficult to manuever a wheelchair.  The dots create
a sort of diagonal groove that a wheel might have trouble with.  My
main concern wasn't so much with wheelchairs, though.  I can see the
tiles as more of a problem for the ambulatory handicapped person who
might trip on the tiles, especially those who have balance problems.

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Mary.Otten@p0.f1055.n261.z1.fidonet.org (Mary Otten) (06/18/91)

Index Number: 16101

[This is from the Blink Talk Conference]

Well, since I'm not an advocate of the position, I'm not sure that those
opposed would agree with you that Isumarized their position adequately.
regarding audible signals, Ican actually think of some situations where
Iregard the signals as necessary and not just helpful. I am from l.a.,
and think Ihave decent mobility skills and too much chutzba for my own
good. But there are some intersections that Isimply don't cross, and if
they had audible signals, I would cross them. That limits my mobility,
access to a couple of big shopping centers etc, so Iguess Ican't totally
agree with your characterization of thesignals as nice but not
necessary. In general, maybe, but as Isay, Ican come o
come up with some specific places where they would make the diference
for me, and I suspect there are others who could come up with places
that wouldn't phaseme but would them. In any case, to keep this somewhat
short and answer your question, Iam using a 386 machine with Artic. Just
got the 386. Have had artic for some time. I'm now sort of in the market
for something better. At least, I have an open mind and am looking. I'm
considering vocalize. Hope to examine it more closely at the upcoming
ACB convention and get a demo.

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Tim.Cumings@p0.f460.n101.z1.fidonet.org (Tim Cumings) (06/18/91)

Index Number: 16106

[This is from the Blink Talk Conference]

Margo, I applaud your willingness not to always tow the nfb line on
issues. In this case, however, I don't know if I would characterise this
issue as a little thing, considering that the nfb has consistently not
only taken a strong position against puting these tiles in subway
stations, but the organization has also filed friend-of-the-court briefs
on behalf of the transit authority in the Washington,  D C case. I agree
with your basic position. I'm not advocating using pathfinder tiles or
audible traffic signals at the expense of other mobility skils. However,
when 70% of blind people are unemployed, I don't think audible traffic
signals or pathfinder tiles should be very high on the priority lists of
consumer organizations dedicated to improving the lives of blind people.

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Lois.Briggs@f89.n129.z1.fidonet.org (Lois Briggs) (06/18/91)

Index Number: 16109

[This is from the Blink Talk Conference]

Regarding your message on pathfinder tile, I have heard of it for
several years through the Golden Triangle Council of the Blind.  Often
things sound like they'd be great, but after they're installed they turn
out to be great in some ways and not so terrific in others.  On
principle it sounds good, but unless there are test sights available to
try I can't imagine giving a useful opinion.  The audable traffic signals
sounded good too, but when I tried them out I found for me that since
the sound was directed into the middle of the intersection instead
of toward the corners, they weren't as useful as I thought they'd be.  I do
know that I rely on curb drop-offs for information when traveling
downtown and since there are ramps have found myself in the street many
more times than happened years ago, so perhaps the tiles would be
helpful.

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Jeff.Salzberg@f89.n129.z1.fidonet.org (Jeff Salzberg) (06/18/91)

Index Number: 16112

[This is from the Blink Talk Conference]

 BH> Perceiving is
 BH> believing, and if the public feels path finder tiles are needed
 BH> so blind people can travel independently, we will not be looked
 BH> upon as compitent and productive workers.

 That is true, except you are basing your position on a false
 assumption.  The fact that the gentleman to whom you referred was a
 persistent and misinformed jerk does not mean that all - or most...or
 even many - sighted employers are.

 To get a job, one first must be alive and healthy.  The pathfinder
 tiles will help keep blinks so.  If you don't believe me, ask Sara
 Atatimur.

 BH> I hope this makes the NFB position a bit clearer.

 The NFB's position on this matter is (and always has been) perfectly
 clear; it's their LOGIC that's askew.

... "Moral indignation is jealousy with a halo." - H. G. Wells

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Eric.Bohlman@p1.f778.n115.z1.fidonet.org (Eric Bohlman) (06/18/91)

Index Number: 16119

[This is from the Blink Talk Conference]

 BH> You may wonder what this has to do with employment......If that man
 BH> runs a business he would not hire a blind person if he thought we
 BH> couldn't travel independently without tiles, traffic signals, or do
 BH> other ordinary things blind people do every day without expensive
 BH> modifications.  You could argue that using a synthesizer is a

No, that's not a case of the tiles leading to unemployment, it's a case of bad
attitudes on the part of employers leading to unemployment.  Let's not forget
that the world has plenty of "expensive modifications" for sighted people like
me.  For example, if I use a subway station, I can see where I'm going.  This
is the result of the subway system spending a minor fortune to install and run
a lighting system, since there's no intrinsic light in a concrete tunnel
buried underground.  If I use a visual traffic signal to help me
cross a street, somebody had to pay for that signal, since the last time I
checked they didn't grow as a result of the wind blowing traffic signal
seeds around.  Note that I can't rely entirely on the traffic signal, since
there are always cars that will run a light or stop in the middle of the
crosswalk; I have to check traffic, but I don't think using the signal impairs
my traffic-checking skills.

There are two points here.  The first is that a blind person who, say, uses
tactile tiles in the subway to avoid falling off the platform isn't any more
dependent on "modifications" than the sighted person who uses the
electromagnetic radiation emitted by the lights.  I'm all for people being as
independent as possible, but independence means doing the same things others
do when you have the same access to resources they do, not doing the same or
more without resources.  Second, the cost of these "special modifications" is
minor in comparison with the cost of all the "nonspecial modifications" that
have to be made.

You could argue that all technology is adaptive technology.  For example, we
have telephones because people have speech and hearing problems that prevent
them from using their voices and ears to carry on unaided conversations with
others who are miles away.  We have cars and airplanes because people have
mobility impairments that prevent them from running a mile in less than four
minutes or flying.  We print telephone directories because people have
learning disabilities that prevent them from memorizing thousands of telephone
numbers.  The only difference between these technologies and what most people
think of as "adaptive" technology is in the number of people served by them.

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Margo.Downey@f60.n382.z1.fidonet.org (Margo Downey) (06/18/91)

Index Number: 16126

[This is from the Blink Talk Conference]

Tim, if I belonged to ACB, I wouldn't agree with everything there, either.
Just wanted to mention that so we can understand each other even better.

I do, however, feel that every issue needs some priority as the issue can, in
some way, overlap into another issue--not all the time but many times.  You
mention unemployment, etc.--well, what if an employer thinks that he must
accommodate us by putting in path finder tiles when, in fact, they probably
wouldn't be needed for the blind person to get about at the job location.
That's precisely NFB looks at all issues--because of the overlapping or
possible overlapping and ramifications pertaining to other issues.  Thank you
for your quick response to my message.  This along with the blind politics and
other subjects are certainly fascinating and very good food for thought.

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Jeff.Salzberg@f89.n129.z1.fidonet.org (Jeff Salzberg) (06/18/91)

Index Number: 16134

[This is from the Blink Talk Conference]

 MD> what if an employer thinks that he must accommodate us by
 MD> putting in path finder tiles when, in fact, they probably
 MD> wouldn't be needed for the blind person to get about at the job
 MD> location. That's precisely NFB looks at all issues--because of

 This is going to come as somewhat of a shock to some users here, but I
 have to tell you that most sighted people do not spend a lot of time
 thinking about blind people.  Ninety-nine percent of all sighted
 employers, I'll wager, would not even NOTICE the pathfinder tiles.

 The NFB, which purports to represent blind people, seems rather
 cavalier when it comes to risking blind people's lives....

... "Moral indignation is jealousy with a halo." - H. G. Wells

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Beth.Hatch-Alleyne@f207.n260.z1.fidonet.org (Beth Hatch-Alleyne) (06/18/91)

Index Number: 16165

[This is from the Blink Talk Conference]

Dan; thanks for your message.  I always enjoy a good debate, and I
may even learn something as well.  I will not repeat what I said to
you or anyone else about the tiles, as everyone knows how I feel
about the subject.  However, I do feel that if the tiles were on
subway tracks, they could beneficial to sighted as well as blind
people.  When I visited New York, as my husband used to live there,
I noticed sighted people falling off the platform, or comming pretty
darn close because of the rush hour crowds which I had the
misfortune to be in.  The point I'm making here is that these tiles
would be useful for everyone in safety situations like subways not
just for blind people.  However, I even feel more strongly that
they, the transit authorities, could put up guard rails so that no
one, sighted or blind, children or adults, would fall off platforms.
 It would be much more safe than tiles, and everyone would benefit.
I'm glad you shared your opinion with me, and I hope we'll find
soemthing we can both agree on, as I'm sure we will as I become more
familiar with people and issues discussed on this echo.  Looking
forward to chatting with you soon, Beth.

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Beth.Hatch-Alleyne@f207.n260.z1.fidonet.org (Beth Hatch-Alleyne) (06/18/91)

Index Number: 16168

[This is from the Blink Talk Conference]

Jeff; thanks for your message.  Please explain to me how you think
this does not hurt our chanopportunities again.  If I call, as I've
done so often, concerning a journalism job, and the employer likes
me a lot, I make an appointment to meet with him/her.  As soon as I
walk in the door, they automatically assume I'm not capable of
working for them by already assuming I can't do the job.  Although I
always explain the alternative techniques I use to write, or do
research every day, I hear they've already found someone for the
job, and then the next day I see the same ad in the newspaper for
the next couple of weeks.  Jeff, what about an employer who has
meetings where a hot topic for discussion is who is going to take
the blind person to the bathroom?  I don't need to ask a fellow
blind person what happened because of a lack of path finder tiles.
Sighted people fall off subway platforms too, even though they can
see where the edge is.  Are you saying blind people aren't as
capable?  Can we not find the edge of a platform with our canes, or
work with our dogs so they won't walk us off the platform?  I'm
sorry if this sounds abrasive, as it is not an attack on you
personally, but I am sick of people saying blind people needs aids
to make the world better for them, rather than working on teaching
alternative techniques and more mobility training.  Accidents will
happen, a metal guard rail in front of a subway platform would
prevent anyone from being hurt, blind or sighted, not path finder
tiles, Beth.

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Beth.Hatch-Alleyne@f207.n260.z1.fidonet.org (Beth Hatch-Alleyne) (06/18/91)

Index Number: 16171

[This is from the Blink Talk Conference]

Eric; thanks for your message.  I am not going to argue with you about
technology.
subject, the problem of people falling off subways is not just a
problem for blind people, but for anyone.  Anyone seeing those tiles
might think we need them so we won't fall off the platform, when
they, the transit authorities in question, could just put a guard
rail to prevent anyone from falling off, thus pno one will fall off
the platform.  I am concerned with safety, and path finder tiles
won't prevent a blind person, who has had no or limited training, if
that is the concern here, from falling off a platform, but a rail
will prevent anyone, whether blind or sighted, and no matter how
much training or experience anyone has with the subway system, from
falling off the platform.  Just some thoughts, Eric, you and I would
be here all day arguing about technology, which is why I did not
touch that part of your message.  I look forward to more messages
from you in the future, Beth.

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Beth.Hatch-Alleyne@f207.n260.z1.fidonet.org (Beth Hatch-Alleyne) (06/18/91)

Index Number: 16172

[This is from the Blink Talk Conference]

Margo; why not use rails near the platform so no one, blind or
sighted, falls off.  Path finder tiles won't necessarily prevent a
blind person, or anyone else, for that matter, from falling off the
subway.  Even if someone feels the tiles, it doesn't mean they won't
fall off.  A rail would serve this purpose, and it would not be
perceived as an aid just for the blind, but as a safety precaution
for everyone as blind people aren't the only ones who may fall off a
subway platform at some time.

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Margo.Downey@f60.n382.z1.fidonet.org (Margo Downey) (06/18/91)

Index Number: 16186

[This is from the Blink Talk Conference]

Jeff, wait!  Hold on!  In a message before that one,
I said I thought pathfinder tiles were fine in subway platforms and such
things--because, my friend, that does precisely have to do with life.

While we're on the subject of "NFB says,"  well, okay, so, "NFB says."  I find
here, and this is a free speech country--so am not trying to stop
anything--but I find that there is a lot of stereotyping--whether it be true
or not--of what NFB says.  I don't think you or anyone here will find that NFB
members say that "ACB members say . . . "  As I pointed out in I think--2
messages--I am an NFB member, but I do not agree with every little thing that
NFB says or every member says."  In fact, I tend to view pathfinder tiles in a
lot of ways like our dear moderator does--used in some cases--but one must
look at priorities and look at the fact that there are, in most cases, a lot
more important things to spend money on--and our moderator, I believe, doesn't
belong to either group?  Am not sure about this.

Jeff, again, thanks for the message--keep them coming--you and the other folks
here really make me think, and I love that.  Thanks again.

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Margo.Downey@f60.n382.z1.fidonet.org (Margo Downey) (06/21/91)

Index Number: 16263

[This is from the Blink Talk Conference]

I was just thinking that something has been forgotten in this discussion
amongst all of us.  That is--the media sets out to sensationalize these types
of things such as pathfinder tiles and stuff like that--and we all know that
media stories are not always positive--more sensational and sometimes
misrepresent information--not just stories about the blind but about anything.
 It's been stated that sighted people don't care about what we use or
whatever, but, that's probably true in most cases, but, when things are
publicized, that can help perhaps  to help  a potential employer decide that
accommodations might be too expensive.  Just a thought--would appreciate
responses from you and others about this.

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Gary.Petraccaro@f90.n129.z1.fidonet.org (Gary Petraccaro) (06/21/91)

Index Number: 16269

[This is from the Blink Talk Conference]

-> In a message to Jeff Salzberg <05-30-91 16:36> David Andrews wrote:
->
-> DA> If Path Finder Tiles were put along all transit platforms,
-> DA> for everybody, as a
-> DA> matter of course, I wouldn't be opposed to them.  However,
-> DA> when they are put in
-> DA> specific areas, to protect blind persons, then I can't
-> DA> support them.  Their main
-> DA> danger is that they add to and perpetuate the notion that
-> DA> blind persons are less
-> DA> able and need all kinds of special accomodations.  You are
-> DA> not a person that has
-> DA> bad attitudes about blind persons and blindness, so I
-> DA> suspect that you would
-> DA> tend to downplay this argument.  I for one do believe it
-> DA> though.
-> DA> When I was younger I was trying for a job in broadcasting.
-> DA> There was a Program
-> DA> Director at a radio station that wanted to hire me, but
-> DA> when the station owner
-> DA> found out that I was blind he wouldn't allow me in the
-> DA> building for the
-> DA> interview.  He said I was dangerous and his insurance would
-> DA> go up.  That same
-> DA> year someone refused to rent me an apartment for the same
-> DA> reason.  I am sure
-> DA> that many others on this Echo can relate similar stories.
-> DA>

     I see an inconsistency, here, David.  As I understand it, one of the
objections to the Blink in BlinkTalk has to do with it's non-direct
approach to dealing with the issue of blindness, and yet, I sense that much
the same can be said with reference to tiles.  Then, too, if it's the
special nature of the strips that bothers you, how about the special nature
of every adaptive device we use, be it talking computers, braille, Long
canes, or whatever.  Aren't you really saying that those devices with work
best are the ones which we can hide more sucessfully?  Bear in mind,
please, that I personally couldn't care less about the tiles' issue, but,
talking books are damned visible, braille is both known about and bulky
(hence visible).  It isn't exactly that those strips are technological
advances, it's just that the handicapped got backburnered and now the law's
forcing these issues to the fore.  If you really don't want to threaten the
sighted, kill the ADA and change the social climate.

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Walter.Siren@p18.f5.n396.z1.fidonet.org (Walter Siren) (06/21/91)

Index Number: 16273

[This is from the Blink Talk Conference]

 MD> I was just thinking that something has been forgotten in this discussion
 MD> amongst all of us.  That is--the media sets out to sensationalize these
 MD> types of things such as pathfinder tiles and stuff like that--and we all
 MD> know that media stories are not always positive--more sensational and
 MD> sometimes misrepresent information--not just stories about the blind but
 MD> about anything.  It's been stated that sighted people don't care about what
 MD> we use or whatever, but, that's probably true in most cases, but, when
 MD> things are publicized, that can help perhaps  to help  a potential employer
 MD> decide that accommodations might be too expensive.  Just a thought--would
 MD> appreciate responses from you and others about this.

Margo, in the first place, if the media makes something of this, it
would probably be for our benefit.  Since like you said they will
make something sesational out of it. they will play it up usually
to our advantage, or it will not be sensational.

Usually the imployers that do not want to hire us are coming from
the way back ideas that blind cannot do anything, and this is to
show that this is not true.  Most sighted people that I have ran
across tend to look at these things as something that is great.

               Walter

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Jeff.Salzberg@f89.n129.z1.fidonet.org (Jeff Salzberg) (06/21/91)

Index Number: 16283

[This is from the Blink Talk Conference]

 BH> If the employer excepts blind people need these
 BH> tiles to travel, he or she will wonder how much money is going
 BH> to be spent accomidating the blind person't nees such as
 BH> finding the bathroom, the cafeteria, etc.

 First of all, Beth, very, very few sighted employers will even be aware
 of the tiles.  Those that do will probably assume that they will need
 to install such tiles - if they happen to have train stations in their
 workplace.

 The same subway stations which would install the tiles already have
 colored tiles or lights alerting sighted passengers to the proximity of
 the platform edge and yet no one seriously suggests that employers
 would feel the need to install colored tiles so that sighted employees
 can find the restrooms.

 The amount of time and energy that is being wasted on this campaign
 against the tiles is discouraging, especially since it is based on such
 faulty logic.

.... "Moral indignation is jealousy with a halo." - H. G. Wells

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Jeff.Salzberg@f89.n129.z1.fidonet.org (Jeff Salzberg) (06/21/91)

Index Number: 16285

[This is from the Blink Talk Conference]

 MD> If you think that losing sight later might make it seem to you
 MD> that traveling as a sighted person is superior because you've
 MD> known about sight, versus the individual who has been blind
 MD> since birth

 I can't answer your question but you've prompted me to share an
 observation I've made.

 It seems to me that the majority (and I'm sure someone will correct me
 if I'm wrong) of people who oppose the pathfinder tiles are people who
 have been blind from birth and therefore have never become aware of the
 tremendous number of signals, indicators, and warnings which are used
 for the benefit of sighted pedestrians.

.... Money is the root of all evil - and a person NEEDS roots.

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Gary.Petraccaro@f90.n129.z1.fidonet.org (Gary Petraccaro) (06/21/91)

Index Number: 16288

[This is from the Blink Talk Conference]

-> In a message to Walter Siren <05-29-91 21:27> Beth Hatch-Alleyne wrote:
->
-> BH> appreciate you for making them.  However right you are that
-> BH> these things, employee ignorance about the capabilities of
-> BH> blind workers, path finder tiles will serve to increase
-> BH> their ignorance.  If the employer excepts blind people need
-> BH> these tiles to travel, he or she will wonder how much money
-> BH> is going to be spent accomidating the blind person't nees
-> BH> such as finding the bathroom, the cafeteria, etc.  Then, if
-> BH> the employer is asked to buy computer software and/or
-> BH> hardware, that may be the straw that breaks the cammel's
-> BH> back, and the blind individual might not get hired, Beth.

Beth,

     In the first place, you cannot increase someone's ignorance
unless you provide him mis-information, otherwise, you can only
increase his data.
Another thing, not necessarily directly related to your message,
is the issue of the imployer's real cost and his Right to take
it into account.  Want to bet that that employer will look at
someone's need to have everything in braille and never even
think of tiles? or that after hearing that he will be legally
forced to make accommodations in his workaday proceedures that
that will break his back far more completely than the tiles?
Yeah, of course, there will always be the employer who does
exactly what you say--put the cart before the horse--but, I'm
not sure how many there'll be. If you want to take up tiles,
take up the B I G tile we all voted for, the A. D. A..  Now,
that's a tile.  Seriously, that fabled employer doesn't care
about tiles, they couldn't possibly cost enough (unless I'm sadly
mistaken about the price).

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Gary.Petraccaro@f90.n129.z1.fidonet.org (Gary Petraccaro) (06/21/91)

Index Number: 16289

[This is from the Blink Talk Conference]

-> In a message to Dan Kysor <05-29-91 22:18> Beth Hatch-Alleyne wrote:
->
-> BH> Dan; thanks for your message.  No safety precaution is
-> BH> perfect, path finder tiles, rails, fences etc.  But path
-> BH> finder tiles are geared specifically for blind people, the
-> BH> rest are not.  If safety is our main concern, we should

     Now, just how do you know that.  Isn't it just possible that sighted
people, finding these tiles will be damned glad to have them.  Sure, maybe
they wouldn't have thought of them for themselves, but, use and intended
use don't exactly need to match.  Bell wanted to use his telephone for much
of what we use radio to day, but, that hasn't stopped us from appreciating
and using either device.

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Gary.Petraccaro@f90.n129.z1.fidonet.org (Gary Petraccaro) (06/21/91)

Index Number: 16290

[This is from the Blink Talk Conference]

Beth,

     I should make one thing more clear than I have.  I couldn't care less
about the tiles--probably wouldn't spend the money for either them or the
rails--and don't really see the need for those traffic bells or whistles
either.  I just disagree with your reasons for disliking the former.  I
think we've gotne over the edge where safety is concerned.  We don't have a
notion of the risks just plain living presents any longer and try to make
 every system completely foolproof.  I don't view that kind of thing
positively.  Btw, by "we" I mean the country as a whole.

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Margo.Downey@f60.n382.z1.fidonet.org (Margo Downey) (06/22/91)

Index Number: 16348

[This is from the Blink Talk Conference]

Walter, won't mention who the person was--but someone went to work for the
Government--the employer--well, supervisor--asked the person if the person
could go to the bathroom by him/herself.  I am afraid that employers who might
otherwise run a good business many times "lose it" when it comes to how to
deal with a blind or otherwise disabled person.  I've seen it happen.  Not
often--but have seen it happen.  I have seen employers who are just fine and
who have good businesses worry more about how people will get to the bathroom
o to lunch or will get home and to work than how the tasks will be performed.
I'm afraid this happens perhaps more than you realize.

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Walter.Siren@p18.f5.n396.z1.fidonet.org (Walter Siren) (06/22/91)

Index Number: 16363

[This is from the Blink Talk Conference]

 WW>      Please, give me a hand with this one, will ya?
 WW>     The Pathfinder Tiles thread, as you will remember, was provoked by a
 WW> message from Sabina Bilder, the director of Disabled Student Services at
 WW> the University of Pittsburgh.  She was looking for input from blind and
 WW> other disabled people as to how necessary/unnecessary they would be in
 WW> the urban setting of the university campus,

Willie, whether to use pathfinder tyles at the university campus
there would not be easy to say to or not to, since I have not seen
the campus.  I know that I traveled around the LSU campus without
any pathfinder tyles.  However, at that time I had light
perception, and it help me.  If there are not any particular hard
to navigate places, then I would say that the expense could be
spent better somewhere else.  If there are hard to navigate places
across wide open places such asparking lots, or the like, then some
sort of markers would be of a lot of help.

               Walter

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Jake.Daniel@f998.n203.z1.fidonet.org (Jake Daniel) (06/25/91)

Index Number: 16411

[This is from the Blink Talk Conference]

Hi Beth,

Well, I must agree I've met some sighted folks who couldn't find
their way out of a paper bag if the sun was shining through the
open end.   As for the issue of sighted travel verses non-sighted
travel, I'm not sure  if it's worth further discussion.  I would
guess that you've never been able to see.  I could be wrong and
believe me it wouldn't be the first time.  But, unless you've
traveled as a sighted person you really don't have any basis of
comparison.  Thanks for your reply, Jake

 Via SPITFIRE Bulletin Board System - Version 3.0

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Susan.Goldfield@p0.f1089.n261.z1.fidonet.org (Susan Goldfield) (06/25/91)

Index Number: 16445

[This is from the Blink Talk Conference]

Hi Gary,
   In your message to Beth Hatch-Alleyne you mention the possibility

of sighted people appreciating and utilizing the tiles themselves.
I believe this message was addressing the use of these tiles in subways.
If this is the case, as a sighted person I can definitely say that
the tiles would be of assistance to us as well. Of course, I am not
speaking for all sighted people, but many a time when rushing through
the subway system in Philadelphia, I've come close to the edge. As
you cannot constantly look down when you walk, the tiles could be
quite handy.

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Beth.Hatch-Alleyne@f207.n260.z1.fidonet.org (Beth Hatch-Alleyne) (06/28/91)

Index Number: 16509

[This is from the Blink Talk Conference]

Walter; I'd like to agree with you that employers see compitent
blind people traveling on the streets, and that we wouldn't have to
be accomodated in his/her business.  But, unfortunately, it's not
that easy, at least in my opinion.  Employers don't see enough of us
about, and they don't just look at how compitent we are.  Otherwize,
there wouldn't be seventy percent of us unemployed.  Walter,
although I've enjoyed this discussion with you and everyone else
about this topic, we'll, as I told Margo in my message to her, just
have to agree to disagree.  You and I have different opinions about
this, and other subjects, but I hope this doesn't prevent us from
being friends, Beth.

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Beth.Hatch-Alleyne@f207.n260.z1.fidonet.org (Beth Hatch-Alleyne) (06/28/91)

Index Number: 16511

[This is from the Blink Talk Conference]

Walter; neither path finder tiles, nor guard rails will prevent
people from falling off the platform.  No system or mechanism will
prevent accidents from happening.  The issue, at least for me
anyway, is whether we are going to have protection from falling off
the platform just for blind people, or whether we care about safety
for all?  Path finder tiles will not prevent someone who is not
concintrating on where they are going, as Margo noted in her message
to me earlier about travel, driving, etc.  Rails are not a sure
thing, they cannot cover all the places where they should be, your
point is well made.  But people may still fall off with the tiles as
they are not a barier, only a warning.  If people ignore, or are
unaware of, or have an accident, as we all have done on occasion,
they are not serving the purpose they were intending to serve, Beth.

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Jeff.Salzberg@f89.n129.z1.fidonet.org (Jeff Salzberg) (06/28/91)

Index Number: 16525

[This is from the Blink Talk Conference]

 BH> Employers don't see enough of us about, and they don't just
 BH> look at how compitent we are.  Otherwize, there wouldn't be
 BH> seventy percent of us unemployed.

 Maybe if it were easier and safer for blind people to travel with the
 help of pathfinder tiles, for instance - that would change.

... The intensity of one's beliefs is not a measure of their correctness.

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Jeff.Salzberg@f89.n129.z1.fidonet.org (Jeff Salzberg) (06/28/91)

Index Number: 16527

[This is from the Blink Talk Conference]

 BH> I would
 BH> not call your logic "faulty"

 That's because MY logic hasn't BEEN faulty; if, however, someone says
 that since all dogs have four legs and since my cat has 4 legs,
 therefore my cat must be a dog....well, I then reserve the right to
 point out the flaws in that argument.

 BH> I'm not sure how you know how an employer
 BH> will think what they think

 Ah, Beth, but YOU have presumed to say how sighted employers will react
 to pathfinder tiles; I merely stated my belief that you were wrong.

 BH> when at the same time, you have
 BH> said that sighted people don't care about blind people

 No, I didn't.  I said that sighted people do not spend all their waking
 hours thinking about blind people and that the sighted are, for the
 most part, unaware of blindness as a part of everyday life.  If you are
 going to quote or paraphrase me, please do so accurately.

 BH> or that
 BH> employers wouldn't care about the tiles.  Please explain this,

 Again, inaccurate paraphrasing.  What I said was that few employers
 would be aware of the tiles and that even fewer would know their
 purpose.

... America...love it or change it.

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Beth.Hatch-Alleyne@f207.n260.z1.fidonet.org (Beth Hatch-Alleyne) (06/28/91)

Index Number: 16531

[This is from the Blink Talk Conference]

Walter; pardon me for jumping in here.  It is my opinion that the
media, my clleagues in the press, publicize "gee whiz" stories.
They, like the rest of the society, don't understand that blind
people can function independently in our society and be productive
citizens.  They are afraid of what they would be like as a blind
person, so anything we do is amazing.  Hence, path finder tiles, or
whater, would be considered necessary to a sighted person because
they can't fathom us functioning in the world without expensive
modifications, Beth.

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