Sabina.Bilder@p0.f89.n129.z1.fidonet.org (Sabina Bilder) (05/24/91)
Index Number: 15805 A pilot study proposal has been submitted to the University of Pittsburgh to test Pathfinder tactile tiles. The purpose is to see if the tiles (designed to aid and alert blind pedestrians) are durable in cold and snowy conditions and appropriate for installation at intersections, curb cuts, bus stops, steps and so on. The tiles have raised "polka dots" about one fourth inch high and one inch round or raised bars which are oriented in the direction of travel. The bumps can be felt through one's shoes. The tiles are bright yellow to provide contrast with the pavement. Pathfinder Tiles are currently in use in the San Francisco Bay Area (BART) subway platforms, in Sacramento, and in Toronto. Before a decision is made to participate in this study, I'm interested in hearing from people who are blind or have low vision in regard to the helpfulness and/or necessity of these tiles (based on actual experience with the tiles or on theoretical viewpoints). I am also interested in hearing from persons with mobility impairments and balance problems as to whether or not these tiles would pose any threats to their safety or ease in traveling (via wheelchair or on foot). Again, this can be based on experience or conjecture. What do you like about the tiles? What don't you like about the tiles? Please respond to me in this echo or by writing or calling me: Sabina Bilder, 412-648-7890, Disabled Student Services, 216 Wm. Pitt Union, University of Pittsburgh, Pittsburgh, PA 15260. -- Uucp: ..!{decvax,oliveb}!bunker!hcap!hnews!129!89.0!Sabina.Bilder Internet: Sabina.Bilder@p0.f89.n129.z1.fidonet.org
Sabina.Bilder@p0.f89.n129.z1.fidonet.org (Sabina Bilder) (05/31/91)
Index Number: 15925 [This is from the Blink Talk Conference] A pilot study proposal has been submitted to the University of Pittsburgh to test Pathfinder tactile tiles. The purpose is to see if the tiles (designed to aid and alert blind pedestrians) are durable in cold and snowy conditions and appropriate for installation at intersections, curb cuts, bus stops, steps and so on. The tiles have raised "polka dots" about one fourth inch high and one inch round or raised bars which are oriented in the direction of travel. The bumps can be felt through one's shoes. The tiles are bright yellow to provide contrast with the pavement. Pathfinder Tiles are currently in use in the San Francisco Bay Area (BART) subway platforms, in Sacramento, and in Toronto. Before a decision is made to participate in this study, I'm interested in hearing from people who are blind or have low vision in regard to the helpfulness and/or necessity of these tiles (based on actual experience with the tiles or on theoretical viewpoints). I am also interested in hearing from persons with mobility impairments and balance problems as to whether or not these tiles would pose any threats to their safety or ease in traveling (via wheelchair or on foot). Again, this can be based on experience or conjecture. What do you like about the tiles? What don't you like about the tiles? Please respond to me in this echo or by writing or calling me: Sabina Bilder, 412-648-7890, Disabled Student Services, 216 Wm. Pitt Union, University of Pittsburgh, Pittsburgh, PA 15260. -- Uucp: ..!{decvax,oliveb}!bunker!hcap!hnews!129!89.0!Sabina.Bilder Internet: Sabina.Bilder@p0.f89.n129.z1.fidonet.org
Mary.Otten@p0.f1055.n261.z1.fidonet.org (Mary Otten) (06/04/91)
Index Number: 15952 [This is from the Blink Talk Conference] riends who use BART and say they are helpful. Given your description, Ican't see why they would pose a particular problem to people in wheelchairs, but, since I"m not in one, I can't say for sure. I think that if there is a group of blind people who find them useful, it is not a bad idea to put them in. There are some who feel that either 1, they don't need them, so they shouldn't be put in because they represent the blind and know what is best; or 2, it is a bad idea to put things like these tiles in because it hurts the public immage of the blind, makes sighted people think that all blind people need such things and cannot get around without them. I have gotten around all my life without the tiles, but, if Ilived in an area that had them, especially on subway platforms, Imight find I really found them useful. That may not help much, because it wasn't a direct testimonial either for or against, but it is the way I feel about the subject. I've had so many arguments about audible signals, something you didn't bring up, but which Ifeel is kind of related, that I couldn't let this question go by without sticking in my 2 cents worth. -- Uucp: ..!{decvax,oliveb}!bunker!hcap!hnews!261!1055.0!Mary.Otten Internet: Mary.Otten@p0.f1055.n261.z1.fidonet.org
Stu.Turk@p0.f26.n129.z1.fidonet.org (Stu Turk) (06/05/91)
Index Number: 15977 SB> on. The tiles have raised "polka dots" about one fourth inch high SB> and one inch round or raised bars which are oriented in the SB> direction of travel. The bumps can be felt through one's shoes. SB> The tiles are bright yellow to provide contrast with the SB> pavement. SB> Pathfinder Tiles are currently in use in the San Francisco Bay Area What happens to the raised dots when someone shovels the snow? And if someone doesn't shovel the snow, can the dots still be felt? :-) -- Uucp: ..!{decvax,oliveb}!bunker!hcap!hnews!129!26.0!Stu.Turk Internet: Stu.Turk@p0.f26.n129.z1.fidonet.org
Sabina.Bilder@p0.f89.n129.z1.fidonet.org (Sabina Bilder) (06/18/91)
Index Number: 16099 [This is from the Blink Talk Conference] Thanks for your input on pathfinder tiles. The problem that I was referring to was noted in a study that was done regarding BART. It wasn't reported to be a big problem, but the way the dots are arranged makes it a little difficult to manuever a wheelchair. The dots create a sort of diagonal groove that a wheel might have trouble with. My main concern wasn't so much with wheelchairs, though. I can see the tiles as more of a problem for the ambulatory handicapped person who might trip on the tiles, especially those who have balance problems. -- Uucp: ..!{decvax,oliveb}!bunker!hcap!hnews!129!89.0!Sabina.Bilder Internet: Sabina.Bilder@p0.f89.n129.z1.fidonet.org
Mary.Otten@p0.f1055.n261.z1.fidonet.org (Mary Otten) (06/18/91)
Index Number: 16101 [This is from the Blink Talk Conference] Well, since I'm not an advocate of the position, I'm not sure that those opposed would agree with you that Isumarized their position adequately. regarding audible signals, Ican actually think of some situations where Iregard the signals as necessary and not just helpful. I am from l.a., and think Ihave decent mobility skills and too much chutzba for my own good. But there are some intersections that Isimply don't cross, and if they had audible signals, I would cross them. That limits my mobility, access to a couple of big shopping centers etc, so Iguess Ican't totally agree with your characterization of thesignals as nice but not necessary. In general, maybe, but as Isay, Ican come o come up with some specific places where they would make the diference for me, and I suspect there are others who could come up with places that wouldn't phaseme but would them. In any case, to keep this somewhat short and answer your question, Iam using a 386 machine with Artic. Just got the 386. Have had artic for some time. I'm now sort of in the market for something better. At least, I have an open mind and am looking. I'm considering vocalize. Hope to examine it more closely at the upcoming ACB convention and get a demo. -- Uucp: ..!{decvax,oliveb}!bunker!hcap!hnews!261!1055.0!Mary.Otten Internet: Mary.Otten@p0.f1055.n261.z1.fidonet.org
Tim.Cumings@p0.f460.n101.z1.fidonet.org (Tim Cumings) (06/18/91)
Index Number: 16106 [This is from the Blink Talk Conference] Margo, I applaud your willingness not to always tow the nfb line on issues. In this case, however, I don't know if I would characterise this issue as a little thing, considering that the nfb has consistently not only taken a strong position against puting these tiles in subway stations, but the organization has also filed friend-of-the-court briefs on behalf of the transit authority in the Washington, D C case. I agree with your basic position. I'm not advocating using pathfinder tiles or audible traffic signals at the expense of other mobility skils. However, when 70% of blind people are unemployed, I don't think audible traffic signals or pathfinder tiles should be very high on the priority lists of consumer organizations dedicated to improving the lives of blind people. -- Uucp: ..!{decvax,oliveb}!bunker!hcap!hnews!101!460.0!Tim.Cumings Internet: Tim.Cumings@p0.f460.n101.z1.fidonet.org
Lois.Briggs@f89.n129.z1.fidonet.org (Lois Briggs) (06/18/91)
Index Number: 16109 [This is from the Blink Talk Conference] Regarding your message on pathfinder tile, I have heard of it for several years through the Golden Triangle Council of the Blind. Often things sound like they'd be great, but after they're installed they turn out to be great in some ways and not so terrific in others. On principle it sounds good, but unless there are test sights available to try I can't imagine giving a useful opinion. The audable traffic signals sounded good too, but when I tried them out I found for me that since the sound was directed into the middle of the intersection instead of toward the corners, they weren't as useful as I thought they'd be. I do know that I rely on curb drop-offs for information when traveling downtown and since there are ramps have found myself in the street many more times than happened years ago, so perhaps the tiles would be helpful. -- Uucp: ..!{decvax,oliveb}!bunker!hcap!hnews!129!89!Lois.Briggs Internet: Lois.Briggs@f89.n129.z1.fidonet.org
Jeff.Salzberg@f89.n129.z1.fidonet.org (Jeff Salzberg) (06/18/91)
Index Number: 16112 [This is from the Blink Talk Conference] BH> Perceiving is BH> believing, and if the public feels path finder tiles are needed BH> so blind people can travel independently, we will not be looked BH> upon as compitent and productive workers. That is true, except you are basing your position on a false assumption. The fact that the gentleman to whom you referred was a persistent and misinformed jerk does not mean that all - or most...or even many - sighted employers are. To get a job, one first must be alive and healthy. The pathfinder tiles will help keep blinks so. If you don't believe me, ask Sara Atatimur. BH> I hope this makes the NFB position a bit clearer. The NFB's position on this matter is (and always has been) perfectly clear; it's their LOGIC that's askew. ... "Moral indignation is jealousy with a halo." - H. G. Wells -- Uucp: ..!{decvax,oliveb}!bunker!hcap!hnews!129!89!Jeff.Salzberg Internet: Jeff.Salzberg@f89.n129.z1.fidonet.org
Eric.Bohlman@p1.f778.n115.z1.fidonet.org (Eric Bohlman) (06/18/91)
Index Number: 16119 [This is from the Blink Talk Conference] BH> You may wonder what this has to do with employment......If that man BH> runs a business he would not hire a blind person if he thought we BH> couldn't travel independently without tiles, traffic signals, or do BH> other ordinary things blind people do every day without expensive BH> modifications. You could argue that using a synthesizer is a No, that's not a case of the tiles leading to unemployment, it's a case of bad attitudes on the part of employers leading to unemployment. Let's not forget that the world has plenty of "expensive modifications" for sighted people like me. For example, if I use a subway station, I can see where I'm going. This is the result of the subway system spending a minor fortune to install and run a lighting system, since there's no intrinsic light in a concrete tunnel buried underground. If I use a visual traffic signal to help me cross a street, somebody had to pay for that signal, since the last time I checked they didn't grow as a result of the wind blowing traffic signal seeds around. Note that I can't rely entirely on the traffic signal, since there are always cars that will run a light or stop in the middle of the crosswalk; I have to check traffic, but I don't think using the signal impairs my traffic-checking skills. There are two points here. The first is that a blind person who, say, uses tactile tiles in the subway to avoid falling off the platform isn't any more dependent on "modifications" than the sighted person who uses the electromagnetic radiation emitted by the lights. I'm all for people being as independent as possible, but independence means doing the same things others do when you have the same access to resources they do, not doing the same or more without resources. Second, the cost of these "special modifications" is minor in comparison with the cost of all the "nonspecial modifications" that have to be made. You could argue that all technology is adaptive technology. For example, we have telephones because people have speech and hearing problems that prevent them from using their voices and ears to carry on unaided conversations with others who are miles away. We have cars and airplanes because people have mobility impairments that prevent them from running a mile in less than four minutes or flying. We print telephone directories because people have learning disabilities that prevent them from memorizing thousands of telephone numbers. The only difference between these technologies and what most people think of as "adaptive" technology is in the number of people served by them. -- Uucp: ..!{decvax,oliveb}!bunker!hcap!hnews!115!778.1!Eric.Bohlman Internet: Eric.Bohlman@p1.f778.n115.z1.fidonet.org
Margo.Downey@f60.n382.z1.fidonet.org (Margo Downey) (06/18/91)
Index Number: 16126 [This is from the Blink Talk Conference] Tim, if I belonged to ACB, I wouldn't agree with everything there, either. Just wanted to mention that so we can understand each other even better. I do, however, feel that every issue needs some priority as the issue can, in some way, overlap into another issue--not all the time but many times. You mention unemployment, etc.--well, what if an employer thinks that he must accommodate us by putting in path finder tiles when, in fact, they probably wouldn't be needed for the blind person to get about at the job location. That's precisely NFB looks at all issues--because of the overlapping or possible overlapping and ramifications pertaining to other issues. Thank you for your quick response to my message. This along with the blind politics and other subjects are certainly fascinating and very good food for thought. -- Uucp: ..!{decvax,oliveb}!bunker!hcap!hnews!382!60!Margo.Downey Internet: Margo.Downey@f60.n382.z1.fidonet.org
Jeff.Salzberg@f89.n129.z1.fidonet.org (Jeff Salzberg) (06/18/91)
Index Number: 16134 [This is from the Blink Talk Conference] MD> what if an employer thinks that he must accommodate us by MD> putting in path finder tiles when, in fact, they probably MD> wouldn't be needed for the blind person to get about at the job MD> location. That's precisely NFB looks at all issues--because of This is going to come as somewhat of a shock to some users here, but I have to tell you that most sighted people do not spend a lot of time thinking about blind people. Ninety-nine percent of all sighted employers, I'll wager, would not even NOTICE the pathfinder tiles. The NFB, which purports to represent blind people, seems rather cavalier when it comes to risking blind people's lives.... ... "Moral indignation is jealousy with a halo." - H. G. Wells -- Uucp: ..!{decvax,oliveb}!bunker!hcap!hnews!129!89!Jeff.Salzberg Internet: Jeff.Salzberg@f89.n129.z1.fidonet.org
Beth.Hatch-Alleyne@f207.n260.z1.fidonet.org (Beth Hatch-Alleyne) (06/18/91)
Index Number: 16165 [This is from the Blink Talk Conference] Dan; thanks for your message. I always enjoy a good debate, and I may even learn something as well. I will not repeat what I said to you or anyone else about the tiles, as everyone knows how I feel about the subject. However, I do feel that if the tiles were on subway tracks, they could beneficial to sighted as well as blind people. When I visited New York, as my husband used to live there, I noticed sighted people falling off the platform, or comming pretty darn close because of the rush hour crowds which I had the misfortune to be in. The point I'm making here is that these tiles would be useful for everyone in safety situations like subways not just for blind people. However, I even feel more strongly that they, the transit authorities, could put up guard rails so that no one, sighted or blind, children or adults, would fall off platforms. It would be much more safe than tiles, and everyone would benefit. I'm glad you shared your opinion with me, and I hope we'll find soemthing we can both agree on, as I'm sure we will as I become more familiar with people and issues discussed on this echo. Looking forward to chatting with you soon, Beth. -- Uucp: ..!{decvax,oliveb}!bunker!hcap!hnews!260!207!Beth.Hatch-Alleyne Internet: Beth.Hatch-Alleyne@f207.n260.z1.fidonet.org
Beth.Hatch-Alleyne@f207.n260.z1.fidonet.org (Beth Hatch-Alleyne) (06/18/91)
Index Number: 16168 [This is from the Blink Talk Conference] Jeff; thanks for your message. Please explain to me how you think this does not hurt our chanopportunities again. If I call, as I've done so often, concerning a journalism job, and the employer likes me a lot, I make an appointment to meet with him/her. As soon as I walk in the door, they automatically assume I'm not capable of working for them by already assuming I can't do the job. Although I always explain the alternative techniques I use to write, or do research every day, I hear they've already found someone for the job, and then the next day I see the same ad in the newspaper for the next couple of weeks. Jeff, what about an employer who has meetings where a hot topic for discussion is who is going to take the blind person to the bathroom? I don't need to ask a fellow blind person what happened because of a lack of path finder tiles. Sighted people fall off subway platforms too, even though they can see where the edge is. Are you saying blind people aren't as capable? Can we not find the edge of a platform with our canes, or work with our dogs so they won't walk us off the platform? I'm sorry if this sounds abrasive, as it is not an attack on you personally, but I am sick of people saying blind people needs aids to make the world better for them, rather than working on teaching alternative techniques and more mobility training. Accidents will happen, a metal guard rail in front of a subway platform would prevent anyone from being hurt, blind or sighted, not path finder tiles, Beth. -- Uucp: ..!{decvax,oliveb}!bunker!hcap!hnews!260!207!Beth.Hatch-Alleyne Internet: Beth.Hatch-Alleyne@f207.n260.z1.fidonet.org
Beth.Hatch-Alleyne@f207.n260.z1.fidonet.org (Beth Hatch-Alleyne) (06/18/91)
Index Number: 16171 [This is from the Blink Talk Conference] Eric; thanks for your message. I am not going to argue with you about technology. subject, the problem of people falling off subways is not just a problem for blind people, but for anyone. Anyone seeing those tiles might think we need them so we won't fall off the platform, when they, the transit authorities in question, could just put a guard rail to prevent anyone from falling off, thus pno one will fall off the platform. I am concerned with safety, and path finder tiles won't prevent a blind person, who has had no or limited training, if that is the concern here, from falling off a platform, but a rail will prevent anyone, whether blind or sighted, and no matter how much training or experience anyone has with the subway system, from falling off the platform. Just some thoughts, Eric, you and I would be here all day arguing about technology, which is why I did not touch that part of your message. I look forward to more messages from you in the future, Beth. -- Uucp: ..!{decvax,oliveb}!bunker!hcap!hnews!260!207!Beth.Hatch-Alleyne Internet: Beth.Hatch-Alleyne@f207.n260.z1.fidonet.org
Beth.Hatch-Alleyne@f207.n260.z1.fidonet.org (Beth Hatch-Alleyne) (06/18/91)
Index Number: 16172 [This is from the Blink Talk Conference] Margo; why not use rails near the platform so no one, blind or sighted, falls off. Path finder tiles won't necessarily prevent a blind person, or anyone else, for that matter, from falling off the subway. Even if someone feels the tiles, it doesn't mean they won't fall off. A rail would serve this purpose, and it would not be perceived as an aid just for the blind, but as a safety precaution for everyone as blind people aren't the only ones who may fall off a subway platform at some time. -- Uucp: ..!{decvax,oliveb}!bunker!hcap!hnews!260!207!Beth.Hatch-Alleyne Internet: Beth.Hatch-Alleyne@f207.n260.z1.fidonet.org
Margo.Downey@f60.n382.z1.fidonet.org (Margo Downey) (06/18/91)
Index Number: 16186 [This is from the Blink Talk Conference] Jeff, wait! Hold on! In a message before that one, I said I thought pathfinder tiles were fine in subway platforms and such things--because, my friend, that does precisely have to do with life. While we're on the subject of "NFB says," well, okay, so, "NFB says." I find here, and this is a free speech country--so am not trying to stop anything--but I find that there is a lot of stereotyping--whether it be true or not--of what NFB says. I don't think you or anyone here will find that NFB members say that "ACB members say . . . " As I pointed out in I think--2 messages--I am an NFB member, but I do not agree with every little thing that NFB says or every member says." In fact, I tend to view pathfinder tiles in a lot of ways like our dear moderator does--used in some cases--but one must look at priorities and look at the fact that there are, in most cases, a lot more important things to spend money on--and our moderator, I believe, doesn't belong to either group? Am not sure about this. Jeff, again, thanks for the message--keep them coming--you and the other folks here really make me think, and I love that. Thanks again. -- Uucp: ..!{decvax,oliveb}!bunker!hcap!hnews!382!60!Margo.Downey Internet: Margo.Downey@f60.n382.z1.fidonet.org
Margo.Downey@f60.n382.z1.fidonet.org (Margo Downey) (06/21/91)
Index Number: 16263 [This is from the Blink Talk Conference] I was just thinking that something has been forgotten in this discussion amongst all of us. That is--the media sets out to sensationalize these types of things such as pathfinder tiles and stuff like that--and we all know that media stories are not always positive--more sensational and sometimes misrepresent information--not just stories about the blind but about anything. It's been stated that sighted people don't care about what we use or whatever, but, that's probably true in most cases, but, when things are publicized, that can help perhaps to help a potential employer decide that accommodations might be too expensive. Just a thought--would appreciate responses from you and others about this. -- Uucp: ..!{decvax,oliveb}!bunker!hcap!hnews!382!60!Margo.Downey Internet: Margo.Downey@f60.n382.z1.fidonet.org
Gary.Petraccaro@f90.n129.z1.fidonet.org (Gary Petraccaro) (06/21/91)
Index Number: 16269 [This is from the Blink Talk Conference] -> In a message to Jeff Salzberg <05-30-91 16:36> David Andrews wrote: -> -> DA> If Path Finder Tiles were put along all transit platforms, -> DA> for everybody, as a -> DA> matter of course, I wouldn't be opposed to them. However, -> DA> when they are put in -> DA> specific areas, to protect blind persons, then I can't -> DA> support them. Their main -> DA> danger is that they add to and perpetuate the notion that -> DA> blind persons are less -> DA> able and need all kinds of special accomodations. You are -> DA> not a person that has -> DA> bad attitudes about blind persons and blindness, so I -> DA> suspect that you would -> DA> tend to downplay this argument. I for one do believe it -> DA> though. -> DA> When I was younger I was trying for a job in broadcasting. -> DA> There was a Program -> DA> Director at a radio station that wanted to hire me, but -> DA> when the station owner -> DA> found out that I was blind he wouldn't allow me in the -> DA> building for the -> DA> interview. He said I was dangerous and his insurance would -> DA> go up. That same -> DA> year someone refused to rent me an apartment for the same -> DA> reason. I am sure -> DA> that many others on this Echo can relate similar stories. -> DA> I see an inconsistency, here, David. As I understand it, one of the objections to the Blink in BlinkTalk has to do with it's non-direct approach to dealing with the issue of blindness, and yet, I sense that much the same can be said with reference to tiles. Then, too, if it's the special nature of the strips that bothers you, how about the special nature of every adaptive device we use, be it talking computers, braille, Long canes, or whatever. Aren't you really saying that those devices with work best are the ones which we can hide more sucessfully? Bear in mind, please, that I personally couldn't care less about the tiles' issue, but, talking books are damned visible, braille is both known about and bulky (hence visible). It isn't exactly that those strips are technological advances, it's just that the handicapped got backburnered and now the law's forcing these issues to the fore. If you really don't want to threaten the sighted, kill the ADA and change the social climate. -- Uucp: ..!{decvax,oliveb}!bunker!hcap!hnews!129!90!Gary.Petraccaro Internet: Gary.Petraccaro@f90.n129.z1.fidonet.org
Walter.Siren@p18.f5.n396.z1.fidonet.org (Walter Siren) (06/21/91)
Index Number: 16273 [This is from the Blink Talk Conference] MD> I was just thinking that something has been forgotten in this discussion MD> amongst all of us. That is--the media sets out to sensationalize these MD> types of things such as pathfinder tiles and stuff like that--and we all MD> know that media stories are not always positive--more sensational and MD> sometimes misrepresent information--not just stories about the blind but MD> about anything. It's been stated that sighted people don't care about what MD> we use or whatever, but, that's probably true in most cases, but, when MD> things are publicized, that can help perhaps to help a potential employer MD> decide that accommodations might be too expensive. Just a thought--would MD> appreciate responses from you and others about this. Margo, in the first place, if the media makes something of this, it would probably be for our benefit. Since like you said they will make something sesational out of it. they will play it up usually to our advantage, or it will not be sensational. Usually the imployers that do not want to hire us are coming from the way back ideas that blind cannot do anything, and this is to show that this is not true. Most sighted people that I have ran across tend to look at these things as something that is great. Walter -- -- Uucp: ..!{decvax,oliveb}!bunker!hcap!hnews!396!5.18!Walter.Siren Internet: Walter.Siren@p18.f5.n396.z1.fidonet.org
Jeff.Salzberg@f89.n129.z1.fidonet.org (Jeff Salzberg) (06/21/91)
Index Number: 16283 [This is from the Blink Talk Conference] BH> If the employer excepts blind people need these BH> tiles to travel, he or she will wonder how much money is going BH> to be spent accomidating the blind person't nees such as BH> finding the bathroom, the cafeteria, etc. First of all, Beth, very, very few sighted employers will even be aware of the tiles. Those that do will probably assume that they will need to install such tiles - if they happen to have train stations in their workplace. The same subway stations which would install the tiles already have colored tiles or lights alerting sighted passengers to the proximity of the platform edge and yet no one seriously suggests that employers would feel the need to install colored tiles so that sighted employees can find the restrooms. The amount of time and energy that is being wasted on this campaign against the tiles is discouraging, especially since it is based on such faulty logic. .... "Moral indignation is jealousy with a halo." - H. G. Wells -- Uucp: ..!{decvax,oliveb}!bunker!hcap!hnews!129!89!Jeff.Salzberg Internet: Jeff.Salzberg@f89.n129.z1.fidonet.org
Jeff.Salzberg@f89.n129.z1.fidonet.org (Jeff Salzberg) (06/21/91)
Index Number: 16285 [This is from the Blink Talk Conference] MD> If you think that losing sight later might make it seem to you MD> that traveling as a sighted person is superior because you've MD> known about sight, versus the individual who has been blind MD> since birth I can't answer your question but you've prompted me to share an observation I've made. It seems to me that the majority (and I'm sure someone will correct me if I'm wrong) of people who oppose the pathfinder tiles are people who have been blind from birth and therefore have never become aware of the tremendous number of signals, indicators, and warnings which are used for the benefit of sighted pedestrians. .... Money is the root of all evil - and a person NEEDS roots. -- Uucp: ..!{decvax,oliveb}!bunker!hcap!hnews!129!89!Jeff.Salzberg Internet: Jeff.Salzberg@f89.n129.z1.fidonet.org
Gary.Petraccaro@f90.n129.z1.fidonet.org (Gary Petraccaro) (06/21/91)
Index Number: 16288 [This is from the Blink Talk Conference] -> In a message to Walter Siren <05-29-91 21:27> Beth Hatch-Alleyne wrote: -> -> BH> appreciate you for making them. However right you are that -> BH> these things, employee ignorance about the capabilities of -> BH> blind workers, path finder tiles will serve to increase -> BH> their ignorance. If the employer excepts blind people need -> BH> these tiles to travel, he or she will wonder how much money -> BH> is going to be spent accomidating the blind person't nees -> BH> such as finding the bathroom, the cafeteria, etc. Then, if -> BH> the employer is asked to buy computer software and/or -> BH> hardware, that may be the straw that breaks the cammel's -> BH> back, and the blind individual might not get hired, Beth. Beth, In the first place, you cannot increase someone's ignorance unless you provide him mis-information, otherwise, you can only increase his data. Another thing, not necessarily directly related to your message, is the issue of the imployer's real cost and his Right to take it into account. Want to bet that that employer will look at someone's need to have everything in braille and never even think of tiles? or that after hearing that he will be legally forced to make accommodations in his workaday proceedures that that will break his back far more completely than the tiles? Yeah, of course, there will always be the employer who does exactly what you say--put the cart before the horse--but, I'm not sure how many there'll be. If you want to take up tiles, take up the B I G tile we all voted for, the A. D. A.. Now, that's a tile. Seriously, that fabled employer doesn't care about tiles, they couldn't possibly cost enough (unless I'm sadly mistaken about the price). -- Uucp: ..!{decvax,oliveb}!bunker!hcap!hnews!129!90!Gary.Petraccaro Internet: Gary.Petraccaro@f90.n129.z1.fidonet.org
Gary.Petraccaro@f90.n129.z1.fidonet.org (Gary Petraccaro) (06/21/91)
Index Number: 16289 [This is from the Blink Talk Conference] -> In a message to Dan Kysor <05-29-91 22:18> Beth Hatch-Alleyne wrote: -> -> BH> Dan; thanks for your message. No safety precaution is -> BH> perfect, path finder tiles, rails, fences etc. But path -> BH> finder tiles are geared specifically for blind people, the -> BH> rest are not. If safety is our main concern, we should Now, just how do you know that. Isn't it just possible that sighted people, finding these tiles will be damned glad to have them. Sure, maybe they wouldn't have thought of them for themselves, but, use and intended use don't exactly need to match. Bell wanted to use his telephone for much of what we use radio to day, but, that hasn't stopped us from appreciating and using either device. -- Uucp: ..!{decvax,oliveb}!bunker!hcap!hnews!129!90!Gary.Petraccaro Internet: Gary.Petraccaro@f90.n129.z1.fidonet.org
Gary.Petraccaro@f90.n129.z1.fidonet.org (Gary Petraccaro) (06/21/91)
Index Number: 16290 [This is from the Blink Talk Conference] Beth, I should make one thing more clear than I have. I couldn't care less about the tiles--probably wouldn't spend the money for either them or the rails--and don't really see the need for those traffic bells or whistles either. I just disagree with your reasons for disliking the former. I think we've gotne over the edge where safety is concerned. We don't have a notion of the risks just plain living presents any longer and try to make every system completely foolproof. I don't view that kind of thing positively. Btw, by "we" I mean the country as a whole. -- Uucp: ..!{decvax,oliveb}!bunker!hcap!hnews!129!90!Gary.Petraccaro Internet: Gary.Petraccaro@f90.n129.z1.fidonet.org
Margo.Downey@f60.n382.z1.fidonet.org (Margo Downey) (06/22/91)
Index Number: 16348 [This is from the Blink Talk Conference] Walter, won't mention who the person was--but someone went to work for the Government--the employer--well, supervisor--asked the person if the person could go to the bathroom by him/herself. I am afraid that employers who might otherwise run a good business many times "lose it" when it comes to how to deal with a blind or otherwise disabled person. I've seen it happen. Not often--but have seen it happen. I have seen employers who are just fine and who have good businesses worry more about how people will get to the bathroom o to lunch or will get home and to work than how the tasks will be performed. I'm afraid this happens perhaps more than you realize. -- Uucp: ..!{decvax,oliveb}!bunker!hcap!hnews!382!60!Margo.Downey Internet: Margo.Downey@f60.n382.z1.fidonet.org
Walter.Siren@p18.f5.n396.z1.fidonet.org (Walter Siren) (06/22/91)
Index Number: 16363 [This is from the Blink Talk Conference] WW> Please, give me a hand with this one, will ya? WW> The Pathfinder Tiles thread, as you will remember, was provoked by a WW> message from Sabina Bilder, the director of Disabled Student Services at WW> the University of Pittsburgh. She was looking for input from blind and WW> other disabled people as to how necessary/unnecessary they would be in WW> the urban setting of the university campus, Willie, whether to use pathfinder tyles at the university campus there would not be easy to say to or not to, since I have not seen the campus. I know that I traveled around the LSU campus without any pathfinder tyles. However, at that time I had light perception, and it help me. If there are not any particular hard to navigate places, then I would say that the expense could be spent better somewhere else. If there are hard to navigate places across wide open places such asparking lots, or the like, then some sort of markers would be of a lot of help. Walter -- Uucp: ..!{decvax,oliveb}!bunker!hcap!hnews!396!5.18!Walter.Siren Internet: Walter.Siren@p18.f5.n396.z1.fidonet.org
Jake.Daniel@f998.n203.z1.fidonet.org (Jake Daniel) (06/25/91)
Index Number: 16411 [This is from the Blink Talk Conference] Hi Beth, Well, I must agree I've met some sighted folks who couldn't find their way out of a paper bag if the sun was shining through the open end. As for the issue of sighted travel verses non-sighted travel, I'm not sure if it's worth further discussion. I would guess that you've never been able to see. I could be wrong and believe me it wouldn't be the first time. But, unless you've traveled as a sighted person you really don't have any basis of comparison. Thanks for your reply, Jake Via SPITFIRE Bulletin Board System - Version 3.0 -- Uucp: ..!{decvax,oliveb}!bunker!hcap!hnews!203!998!Jake.Daniel Internet: Jake.Daniel@f998.n203.z1.fidonet.org
Susan.Goldfield@p0.f1089.n261.z1.fidonet.org (Susan Goldfield) (06/25/91)
Index Number: 16445 [This is from the Blink Talk Conference] Hi Gary, In your message to Beth Hatch-Alleyne you mention the possibility of sighted people appreciating and utilizing the tiles themselves. I believe this message was addressing the use of these tiles in subways. If this is the case, as a sighted person I can definitely say that the tiles would be of assistance to us as well. Of course, I am not speaking for all sighted people, but many a time when rushing through the subway system in Philadelphia, I've come close to the edge. As you cannot constantly look down when you walk, the tiles could be quite handy. -- Uucp: ..!{decvax,oliveb}!bunker!hcap!hnews!261!1089.0!Susan.Goldfield Internet: Susan.Goldfield@p0.f1089.n261.z1.fidonet.org
Beth.Hatch-Alleyne@f207.n260.z1.fidonet.org (Beth Hatch-Alleyne) (06/28/91)
Index Number: 16509 [This is from the Blink Talk Conference] Walter; I'd like to agree with you that employers see compitent blind people traveling on the streets, and that we wouldn't have to be accomodated in his/her business. But, unfortunately, it's not that easy, at least in my opinion. Employers don't see enough of us about, and they don't just look at how compitent we are. Otherwize, there wouldn't be seventy percent of us unemployed. Walter, although I've enjoyed this discussion with you and everyone else about this topic, we'll, as I told Margo in my message to her, just have to agree to disagree. You and I have different opinions about this, and other subjects, but I hope this doesn't prevent us from being friends, Beth. -- Uucp: ..!{decvax,oliveb}!bunker!hcap!hnews!260!207!Beth.Hatch-Alleyne Internet: Beth.Hatch-Alleyne@f207.n260.z1.fidonet.org
Beth.Hatch-Alleyne@f207.n260.z1.fidonet.org (Beth Hatch-Alleyne) (06/28/91)
Index Number: 16511 [This is from the Blink Talk Conference] Walter; neither path finder tiles, nor guard rails will prevent people from falling off the platform. No system or mechanism will prevent accidents from happening. The issue, at least for me anyway, is whether we are going to have protection from falling off the platform just for blind people, or whether we care about safety for all? Path finder tiles will not prevent someone who is not concintrating on where they are going, as Margo noted in her message to me earlier about travel, driving, etc. Rails are not a sure thing, they cannot cover all the places where they should be, your point is well made. But people may still fall off with the tiles as they are not a barier, only a warning. If people ignore, or are unaware of, or have an accident, as we all have done on occasion, they are not serving the purpose they were intending to serve, Beth. -- Uucp: ..!{decvax,oliveb}!bunker!hcap!hnews!260!207!Beth.Hatch-Alleyne Internet: Beth.Hatch-Alleyne@f207.n260.z1.fidonet.org
Jeff.Salzberg@f89.n129.z1.fidonet.org (Jeff Salzberg) (06/28/91)
Index Number: 16525 [This is from the Blink Talk Conference] BH> Employers don't see enough of us about, and they don't just BH> look at how compitent we are. Otherwize, there wouldn't be BH> seventy percent of us unemployed. Maybe if it were easier and safer for blind people to travel with the help of pathfinder tiles, for instance - that would change. ... The intensity of one's beliefs is not a measure of their correctness. -- Uucp: ..!{decvax,oliveb}!bunker!hcap!hnews!129!89!Jeff.Salzberg Internet: Jeff.Salzberg@f89.n129.z1.fidonet.org
Jeff.Salzberg@f89.n129.z1.fidonet.org (Jeff Salzberg) (06/28/91)
Index Number: 16527 [This is from the Blink Talk Conference] BH> I would BH> not call your logic "faulty" That's because MY logic hasn't BEEN faulty; if, however, someone says that since all dogs have four legs and since my cat has 4 legs, therefore my cat must be a dog....well, I then reserve the right to point out the flaws in that argument. BH> I'm not sure how you know how an employer BH> will think what they think Ah, Beth, but YOU have presumed to say how sighted employers will react to pathfinder tiles; I merely stated my belief that you were wrong. BH> when at the same time, you have BH> said that sighted people don't care about blind people No, I didn't. I said that sighted people do not spend all their waking hours thinking about blind people and that the sighted are, for the most part, unaware of blindness as a part of everyday life. If you are going to quote or paraphrase me, please do so accurately. BH> or that BH> employers wouldn't care about the tiles. Please explain this, Again, inaccurate paraphrasing. What I said was that few employers would be aware of the tiles and that even fewer would know their purpose. ... America...love it or change it. -- Uucp: ..!{decvax,oliveb}!bunker!hcap!hnews!129!89!Jeff.Salzberg Internet: Jeff.Salzberg@f89.n129.z1.fidonet.org
Beth.Hatch-Alleyne@f207.n260.z1.fidonet.org (Beth Hatch-Alleyne) (06/28/91)
Index Number: 16531 [This is from the Blink Talk Conference] Walter; pardon me for jumping in here. It is my opinion that the media, my clleagues in the press, publicize "gee whiz" stories. They, like the rest of the society, don't understand that blind people can function independently in our society and be productive citizens. They are afraid of what they would be like as a blind person, so anything we do is amazing. Hence, path finder tiles, or whater, would be considered necessary to a sighted person because they can't fathom us functioning in the world without expensive modifications, Beth. -- Uucp: ..!{decvax,oliveb}!bunker!hcap!hnews!260!207!Beth.Hatch-Alleyne Internet: Beth.Hatch-Alleyne@f207.n260.z1.fidonet.org