David.Goldfield@p0.f1089.n261.z1.fidonet.org (David Goldfield) (06/18/91)
Index Number: 16093
[This is from the Blink Talk Conference]
Well, now that i got your attension with this subject line, here's
what's on my mind! This echo is in great need of new and fresh HOT
discussion, so I will initiate.
As many of you surely know, many services around the country,
(services of all types) offer discounts and various price breaks for us
handicapped folks, especially us poor blinks. For example, in
Philadelphia, (my home town) a blind person can ride a bus or train for
half the normal fare. Amtrak offers similar discounts, although not 50
percent off, of course. Personally, I NEVER accept such discounts or
favors just because I'm blind and I encourage all of you to do the
same. I am in favor of discounts for groups of people such as senior
citizens, people on low incomes, but why should I get a discount on the
train when I make just as much money (maybe more) than the sighted guy
sitting next to me who has to fork out the bucks. Once, while I was
paying the fare on the train, I nearly got into an argument with the
collector because he thought I was nuts. A woman next to me defended
him by saying to me that other groups of people get discounts too, such
as (my favorite) folks in the military. Well
She just pushed the wrong button. I told her that I do not deserve a
discount just because I am blind and furthermore I felt her argument was
rediculous as I feel people in the military deserve a discount even
less, as the military is involved in the profession of killing. (hey,
Willie. The traffic here may increase 100fold because of this post, so
watch out.) i realize I am mixing a variety of topics, but ther's only
so many times I can read about airlines and the Nls Database. Sorry,
guys, but a man's gottaa do what a man's gotta do. I look forward to
your messages.
--
Uucp: ..!{decvax,oliveb}!bunker!hcap!hnews!261!1089.0!David.Goldfield
Internet: David.Goldfield@p0.f1089.n261.z1.fidonet.orgWalter.Siren@p18.f5.n396.z1.fidonet.org (Walter Siren) (06/18/91)
Index Number: 16115
[This is from the Blink Talk Conference]
DG> Well, now that i got your attension with this subject line, here's what's
DG> on my mind! This echo is in great need of new and fresh HOT discussion, so
DG> I will initiate.
You can say that again.
DG> As many of you surely know, many services around the country,
DG> (services of all types) offer discounts and various price breaks for us
DG> handicapped folks, especially us poor blinks. For example, in Philadelphia,
DG> (my home town) a blind person can ride a bus or train for half the normal
DG> fare. Amtrak offers similar discounts, although not 50 percent off, of
DG> course. Personally, I NEVER accept such discounts or favors just because
DG> I'm blind and I encourage all of you to do the same. I am in favor of
DG> discounts for groups of people such as senior citizens, people on low
DG> incomes, but why should I get a discount on the train when I make just as
DG> much money (maybe more) than the sighted guy sitting next to me
Of course that same arguement can be the same with any other group
that gets a discount. There are some senior citizens who are very
well off also, but they still get the discount. Yet, they are
getting it just because they are old.
DG> fork out the bucks. Once, while I was paying the fare on the train, I
DG> nearly got into an argument with the collector because he thought I was
DG> nuts. A woman next to me defended him by saying to me that other groups of
DG> people get discounts too, such as (my favorite) folks in the military.
DG> Well
DG> She just pushed the wrong button. I told her that I do not deserve a
DG> discount just because I am blind and furthermore I felt her argument was
DG> rediculous as I feel people in the military deserve a discount even less,
DG> as the military is involved in the profession of killing.
Well, there I think that you went astray. They are in the
proffession of defending us, and the killing is unfortunately a
result of that defense. Well, I know that there are those who say
that the desert storm was not defending us, but it depends how one
looks at it. If we let agretion remain unchecked, then it will
eventually get to us. We saw that with world war 2.
DG> i realize I am mixing a variety of topics, but ther's only so many times I
DG> can read about airlines and the Nls Database.
You can say that again. It would be a nice change to have
something different, but even this subject was touched on from the
various aspects before on here, but it has been a while.
As far as turning down the discounts that are available to us, if
they are there, then I will accept them. Some of them I have mixed
feeling about, but if they are going to give them to other groups,
then I have no problem with getting them for us.
The free mailing privelege, when it was first given to us, I felt
weird about that one, but I can see the arguements for it. Of
course back in the olden days, it was strictly for reading material
and the like, and not for letters. I deffinitely think that it
should stand, because we can't go down to the local library like
our sighted friends and borrow a book. I realize that our mailing
media does cost more to send if they would charge for it, so I can
understand the free privelege, but if they would charge us the same
for sending a tape letter, or braille letter, as a print letter, I
would have no problem with that one. However, there are a lot of
blind people that are not very well off financially, and there only
form of entertainment is those pen pals, or tape pals, and I would
not want to see them deprived of that. So I am afraid that there
probably is no easy solution. If the privelege is there, and if
you take advantage of it or not, should be your business, and if
you don't, it will not make any difference to others anyway, so why
not take it. Btw, do you accept your extra income tax exemption
for the fact that you are blind?
Walter
--
Uucp: ..!{decvax,oliveb}!bunker!hcap!hnews!396!5.18!Walter.Siren
Internet: Walter.Siren@p18.f5.n396.z1.fidonet.orgMika.Pyyhkala@p0.f460.n101.z1.fidonet.org (Mika Pyyhkala) (06/18/91)
Index Number: 16129
[This is from the Blink Talk Conference]
Hello David,
This is a good topic to start discussing in the echo
again, we've touched on it a bit before too.
Anyway, up until I was about 16 or 17 years old, (I am now 18)
I would accept the free rides on our public transportation systems.
However, at that point, I felt that the rides were unjustified.
I feel that since sighted people have to pay for their transportation
that blind people, or anyone else for that matter, also should
have to pay. Also, I agree that any discounts
should be bassed on income.
Also, I feel that by riding the subway or whatever for free, you are
sending a political statement to the people around you that
reenforces stereotypical roles believed to be played by blind
people.
If we want equality, we should also accept the responsibility it
intails.
I too have had difficulty in paying the faire, the same
type you've had.
One subway driver told me that it was against the law for
him to charge me, and I told him that I wanted to pay, and
he said that if you want to be that way fine.
Another bus driver told me that I should make a donation to
a church instead of paying for the bus.
In response to the curosity of the MBTA employees,
this week in fact, I am just completing a one-page flyer
on why I pay for my public transportation. I have to
make a few minor corrections, and print it and copy it. So, when
somebody asks, I can just give them one.
I can also post in the echo when I get it ready, which hopefully
will be in the next few days.
Another question to ponder is that if one were absolutely
poor, and living in the street for instance, and blind, if
we would take the free ride. If we did, we would compromise
our pricniples, if we did not, we might not be
able to get off the street, or go anywhere. This may also relate a bit
to the topic someone brought up about whether a blind
person would rather be mugged, or victimized in nother
way by a criminal, instead of being treated differently because
of blindndess.
-Mika
--
Uucp: ..!{decvax,oliveb}!bunker!hcap!hnews!101!460.0!Mika.Pyyhkala
Internet: Mika.Pyyhkala@p0.f460.n101.z1.fidonet.orgMary.Otten@p0.f1055.n261.z1.fidonet.org (Mary Otten) (06/18/91)
Index Number: 16130
[This is from the Blink Talk Conference]
I agre absolutely with all of your message, except the part about not
paying income tax. Ican't immagine thinking that a blind person
shouldn't pay, no matter how much money he or she makes. That is simply
going too far.
--
Uucp: ..!{decvax,oliveb}!bunker!hcap!hnews!261!1055.0!Mary.Otten
Internet: Mary.Otten@p0.f1055.n261.z1.fidonet.orgTim.Cumings@p0.f460.n101.z1.fidonet.org (Tim Cumings) (06/18/91)
Index Number: 16137
[This is from the Blink Talk Conference]
When I'm on a bus or a subway and someone offers 6give to give me their
seat, I politely depine deacline and just say that I've been sitting all
day long.
--
Uucp: ..!{decvax,oliveb}!bunker!hcap!hnews!101!460.0!Tim.Cumings
Internet: Tim.Cumings@p0.f460.n101.z1.fidonet.orgDavid.Goldfield@p0.f1089.n261.z1.fidonet.org (David Goldfield) (06/18/91)
Index Number: 16138
[This is from the Blink Talk Conference]
Mary,
First, let me say that I have validated you on Blazie Engr.'s BBs.
As far as your message goes. Your point about senior citizens is, in a
way, a good one, although so many folks, even younger people, have
managed to save here and there, and it would be impossible to keep track
of who's got money and who doesn't. Basically, senior citizens, in my
opinion, deserve a break because they've lived longer than me and have
worked and paid their dues. i also want to say that I don't give myself
any tax breaks just because I don't see. As far as paying for services
you can't use, I kind of see your point, except that -- don't we all in
some way pay for a service we can't use. Yes, it's true that my tax
money goes for things i can never benefit from. In my opinion, that
does not entitle me to a discount on a bus or train. My taxes go for
things that not only can't I use, but don't believe in either, like the
military. Sure wish I could do something about that. At least I can
vote, but I'm getting off topic.
--
Uucp: ..!{decvax,oliveb}!bunker!hcap!hnews!261!1089.0!David.Goldfield
Internet: David.Goldfield@p0.f1089.n261.z1.fidonet.orgDavid.Goldfield@p0.f1089.n261.z1.fidonet.org (David Goldfield) (06/18/91)
Index Number: 16139
[This is from the Blink Talk Conference]
Walter, i agree about the free matter privelege. Since Braille takes up
much more space than print, and since Braille paper is much heavier
being able to send material in the mail for free is a good service.
--
Uucp: ..!{decvax,oliveb}!bunker!hcap!hnews!261!1089.0!David.Goldfield
Internet: David.Goldfield@p0.f1089.n261.z1.fidonet.orgDavid.Goldfield@p0.f1089.n261.z1.fidonet.org (David Goldfield) (06/18/91)
Index Number: 16140
[This is from the Blink Talk Conference]
Phil,
You won't regre stating your opinion, as far as i am concerned. I will
try to answer your arguments which were excellent, by the way.
I do jnot claim a tax exemption. However, tax writeoffs for special
equipment, like an ocr, I agree with.
the Nls program is not one I have a problem with. My problem is with
discounts for services such as travel like busses or trains. I am not
saying that essential services like putting Braille on elevatore should
be done away with. Because this is Blinktalk and not the Politics echo
i am not going into my views about the military. As far as shuttle
services, yes I would use it if a bvus could not come to my area.
--
Uucp: ..!{decvax,oliveb}!bunker!hcap!hnews!261!1089.0!David.Goldfield
Internet: David.Goldfield@p0.f1089.n261.z1.fidonet.orgWalter.Siren@p18.f5.n396.z1.fidonet.org (Walter Siren) (06/18/91)
Index Number: 16145
[This is from the Blink Talk Conference]
BH> David; I agree with you one hundred percent. I travel by bus, air, and
BH> train quite a bit. I don't feel that just because I'm blind that I should
BH> get a discount. Many people argue that blind people are in general at a
BH> lower income than sighted people, and that just the fact they're going out
BH> is good enough to warrant half fair. I don't buy this premes.
Beth, tell me, are you going to pay the full price of a hotel room
in New Orleans when you come to the NFB convention. You don't
think that price that NFB negotiated is a full hotel price do you.
It is far from it. As far as convention rates are concerned, there
isn't a sighted convention who can get anywhere near that rate.
There are sighted conventions who come down here a lot larger than
the NFB, and there rates are not discounted near that much.
Walter
--
Uucp: ..!{decvax,oliveb}!bunker!hcap!hnews!396!5.18!Walter.Siren
Internet: Walter.Siren@p18.f5.n396.z1.fidonet.orgMika.Pyyhkala@f460.n101.z1.fidonet.org (Mika Pyyhkala) (06/18/91)
Index Number: 16152
[This is from the Blink Talk Conference]
Hi Phil,
You are correct that to be blind, and independent costs lots and lots
of money. For example, equipment such as adaptive computers,
reading machines, and much more!
However, to say that blind people should not
have to pay income tax, or that we should receive special
discounts on things with transportation, I believe, is
the wrong way to address the fact that it is expensive
to be blind.
For instance, if Malcolm Forbes, Bill Gates, or Donald Trump
became blind, should they be exempted from income tax?
Also, I believe that if we take discounts on transportation
systems, we send a message to the general public around us.
If the average Joe sees a blind person getting on a subway
for free, he will at least subtully reenforce
the notion that blind people should be treated differently.
This atitude can manefest itself into otther problems.
The answer to the expenses of blindness is not
tax rebats, and transportation discounts, it's encreased funding
assistance for the things we need, i.e. braille,
adaptive computer equipment, etc.
This will help us, while not conveying negative messages to
the public.
When the public sees that blind people are exempted from tax,
do you think they get the feeling that
blind peeople should be treated equally, and
share in the responsibility of a society?
They may not even realize that it is more
expensive to be blind, and just think the tax break
is there to take care of us.
Keep up the discussion,
Mika
... sign.lis
--
Uucp: ..!{decvax,oliveb}!bunker!hcap!hnews!101!460!Mika.Pyyhkala
Internet: Mika.Pyyhkala@f460.n101.z1.fidonet.orgMika.Pyyhkala@f460.n101.z1.fidonet.org (Mika Pyyhkala) (06/18/91)
Index Number: 16153
[This is from the Blink Talk Conference]
In your message, you asked, if conventioneers, particularly
those who are opposed to such things as transportation discounts,
are going to pay full price for hotel rooms. You also
pointed out that larger conventions come to New Orleans,
and do not receive as great a discount, alluding to the
idea that this discount is not just basssed on the fact
that NFB will bring a lot of people to the hotel, but
that NFB will bring a lot of blind people to the
hotel.
This is a good point to explore and discuss!
My first question is if other groups, for instance
nonproffit organizations, can receive this same discount.
Or, were you referring to when corporations come to
conventions in New Orleans.
Another question that arrises, is that the two organizations
probably have contracts with the hotel to use a particular chain frequently.
This may also account for the discount.
-Mika
... sign.lis
--
Uucp: ..!{decvax,oliveb}!bunker!hcap!hnews!101!460!Mika.Pyyhkala
Internet: Mika.Pyyhkala@f460.n101.z1.fidonet.orgDan.Kysor@f998.n203.z1.fidonet.org (Dan Kysor) (06/18/91)
Index Number: 16162
[This is from the Blink Talk Conference]
well i agree with phil too but dosn't blind adaptive equipment,
clothing, travel expense (cars purchases etc) qualify as a tax
right off?
--
Uucp: ..!{decvax,oliveb}!bunker!hcap!hnews!203!998!Dan.Kysor
Internet: Dan.Kysor@f998.n203.z1.fidonet.orgBeth.Hatch-Alleyne@f207.n260.z1.fidonet.org (Beth Hatch-Alleyne) (06/18/91)
Index Number: 16167
[This is from the Blink Talk Conference]
Walter; although I appreciate the points you made in your message,
there is a difference between what I was saying and the NFB
convention rates.....Don't stop reading yet, Walter, I'm not going
to drop the subject. I have never used half fare when I travel as
an individual, as I said before. I have been to many conventions,
state conventions for the NFB, where we paid the same rates as
sighted conventioneers. We have to guarantee the hotel that they'll
be 300 or so people at the NFB convention, that is why we get that
price. I'll do some research on it to find out more about this, but
I have heard of groups of sighted conventioneers having thousands of
people in one hotel and getting great rates. Although I know where
you're leading in this message, I believe there is more to it than
you think. The NFB gets the same rates for that huge group of
people, just as sighted conventioneers do. Every convention I've
been to, Massachusets, New Hampshire, Vermont, New York, we've
always paid the same as sighted conventioneers. I also got a good
deal from the airline, not because I'm blind, as I didn't tell them,
but because I shopped around for the best deal, which is what anyone
does who has such a huge convention. I hope this is a bit clear, if
not, Walter, please leave me another message and we'll talk about it
more, Beth.
--
Uucp: ..!{decvax,oliveb}!bunker!hcap!hnews!260!207!Beth.Hatch-Alleyne
Internet: Beth.Hatch-Alleyne@f207.n260.z1.fidonet.orgGary.Petraccaro@f90.n129.z1.fidonet.org (Gary Petraccaro) (06/18/91)
Index Number: 16174
[This is from the Blink Talk Conference]
David,
I oppose discounts of most sorts. As for the handicapped, they just
make us look more helpless than we are. Frankly favor discounts for cops,
fire fighters, military. All discounting should be discretionary--not
governmental in nature, and, of course, anyone should be able to not take
advantage of such a policy.
--
Uucp: ..!{decvax,oliveb}!bunker!hcap!hnews!129!90!Gary.Petraccaro
Internet: Gary.Petraccaro@f90.n129.z1.fidonet.orgTom.Gerhart@f210.n273.z1.fidonet.org (Tom Gerhart) (06/18/91)
Index Number: 16177
[This is from the Blink Talk Conference]
TC> When I'm on a bus or a subway and someone offers 6give to give
TC> me their seat, I politely depine deacline and just say that
TC> I've been sitting all day long.
I used to do this also but now I see that it is much better to take the
seat and show the public at large that I can be as tired after a hard
day on the job just like my sighted brothers. This is much easier for
the public to understand if the person who is giving me the seat is an
old lady who can just about stand up. tom G.
--
Uucp: ..!{decvax,oliveb}!bunker!hcap!hnews!273!210!Tom.Gerhart
Internet: Tom.Gerhart@f210.n273.z1.fidonet.orgDan.Kysor@f998.n203.z1.fidonet.org (Dan Kysor) (06/18/91)
Index Number: 16181
[This is from the Blink Talk Conference]
whats the difference between free matter i.e., braille being too
bulky and the like and reduced bus or transportation fairs. blind
people don't drive (most of us) and according to the free matter
logic you described, cars are inaccessable and taxi's are too
expensive so it just seems logical to reduce the blind bus rates as
true for senior citizens... dan
--
Uucp: ..!{decvax,oliveb}!bunker!hcap!hnews!203!998!Dan.Kysor
Internet: Dan.Kysor@f998.n203.z1.fidonet.orgDan.Kysor@f998.n203.z1.fidonet.org (Dan Kysor) (06/18/91)
Index Number: 16182
[This is from the Blink Talk Conference]
there we go again... why is it that i can always tell who is
aspousing nfb docterine... that is, second guessing what the
sighted are going to think... blindness is expensive. if i have to
supplement my travel with taxis and instead of buying a bic pen, i
have to go out and spend $450 on a brailler and then hire a reader
at $5 per hour to read my mail and label my food cans, why not
reduce my bus fair? well, since your second guessing what sighted
folks think about this issue (who conducted the sighted
survey?)i'll do the same in a positive manner. i figure the
reduced bus fair is predicated on the understanding that i incurr
all these expensesand thus, live in an aware, enlightened
society... well, maybe i am carrying it a little far what you get
my point... dan, too vain to be blind
--
Uucp: ..!{decvax,oliveb}!bunker!hcap!hnews!203!998!Dan.Kysor
Internet: Dan.Kysor@f998.n203.z1.fidonet.orgWalter.Siren@p18.f5.n396.z1.fidonet.org (Walter Siren) (06/18/91)
Index Number: 16183
[This is from the Blink Talk Conference]
DK> well i agree with phil too but dosn't blind adaptive equipment, clothing,
DK> travel expense (cars purchases etc) qualify as a tax right off?
Well, you included too many things in your write offs. The only
time that you can have a write off as the things you described,
would be if you are business for yourself. Clothing would only
apply, if you were required to wear a uniform. Travel expenses
only if you go on a business trip. Travel between work and home
does not count. Even guide dog expenses have to come under your
medical expense allowance, and If you don't have too many medical
expenses, it won't help you, since they have cut down a great deal
on medical expenses.
Walter
--
Uucp: ..!{decvax,oliveb}!bunker!hcap!hnews!396!5.18!Walter.Siren
Internet: Walter.Siren@p18.f5.n396.z1.fidonet.orgMary.Otten@p0.f1055.n261.z1.fidonet.org (Mary Otten) (06/18/91)
Index Number: 16188
[This is from the Blink Talk Conference]
Hi David, and thanks for the validation. You mentioned write offs for
special equipment. What write offs? Unless you use the equip for your
work, so far as Iknow, no write off is possible. That is another reason
why Idon't particularly mind taking the little crumbs they give, like a
cheaper bus ride. Ican't write off the speech synthesizer for this
computer, nor will Ibe able to write off my ocr device, when and if Iget
it etc. Somebody with my income, if they weren't blind, would surely
have a car and, yes, the expenses associated with it, but they'd also
save a lot of time and agrivation. But I'd have to have a whole lot more
income to be able to afford a driver etc, full time, Imean. I guess
Ilook at it as being caught in the middle. I'm not saying society owes
me this lttle break on transportation, but I'm not turning it down
either. I also think that the number of services, paid for by thetax
peyers, to which Idon't have access just because Iam blind, is greater
than the number to which the average sighted person doesn't have access.
Rationalization? Yes, maybe. But, as has been said before in other
posts, society isn't perfect, isn't built on perfect reliance on
unalterable principles. I do, however, think you or anybody else should
have theright to go ahead and pay full fair if your conscience demands
it and not be hastled by anybody.
--
Uucp: ..!{decvax,oliveb}!bunker!hcap!hnews!261!1055.0!Mary.Otten
Internet: Mary.Otten@p0.f1055.n261.z1.fidonet.orgBeth.Hatch-Alleyne@f207.n260.z1.fidonet.org (Beth Hatch-Alleyne) (06/20/91)
Index Number: 16253
[This is from the Blink Talk Conference]
Donna; thanks for your message, you made me think. Half fare, and
all the subjects we're speaking about in this topic are, at least in
my opinion, a matter of conscience as we have to live with whatever
we decide is best for us. Your situation is different than mine, as
I do not have to deal with any other concerns except getting where I
need to go. I understand why you would not want to take the bus if
you're having seizures, although I cannot put myself in that
position as I am not in your shoes. I do, however, feel the half
fare should be based on economics, rather than on the fact that an
individual happens to be blind. I know a lot of people disagree
with me on this subject, but I respect everyone here, and we all
have a right to our own opinions. Thank you for responding to my
message, and I look forward to many more from you in the future,
Beth.
--
Uucp: ..!{decvax,oliveb}!bunker!hcap!hnews!260!207!Beth.Hatch-Alleyne
Internet: Beth.Hatch-Alleyne@f207.n260.z1.fidonet.orgWilliam.Wilson@f89.n129.z1.fidonet.org (William Wilson) (06/21/91)
Index Number: 16261
[This is from the Blink Talk Conference]
BH> your shoes. I do, however, feel the half fare should be based
BH> on economics, rather than on the fact that an individual
BH> happens to be blind.
Beth,
Unless I am unaware of something, that IS how it is based!
That is, at least in this city, the half fare card is given to
people over the age of 65 and to disabled persons, not to people simply
because they are blind!
Short of everybody who wants a half fare card turning in an IRS
form to the bus company, I believe it is on the average a fair
assumption to think that the people who make these decisions decided
that disabled and retired people have less income than others, they are
easily identified with little or no additional costs to the provider of
the service, and nobody is putting a gun at your head forcing you to use
the half fare scheme...
Willie
.... BlinkTalk, Dr. Deb and Silver in Pittsburgh!
--
Uucp: ..!{decvax,oliveb}!bunker!hcap!hnews!129!89!William.Wilson
Internet: William.Wilson@f89.n129.z1.fidonet.orgWalter.Siren@p18.f5.n396.z1.fidonet.org (Walter Siren) (06/21/91)
Index Number: 16270
[This is from the Blink Talk Conference]
MD> It would cost just a few thousand dollars to get a guide dog, Walter? The
MD> figures I've heard have been something like $10,000.
Well, that is a few thousand dollars isn't it? I would say that at
the cost of one's first dog of $150, that is a small discout from
the retail price. Not to mention that seeing eye even throws in
your plain fare roundtrip.
also btw, what about the ASP that gives grants to blind people to
by equipment. That's discounts that sighted people don't get.
These things are no different to accepting half bus fare. The only
difference is the amounts.
Walter
--
Uucp: ..!{decvax,oliveb}!bunker!hcap!hnews!396!5.18!Walter.Siren
Internet: Walter.Siren@p18.f5.n396.z1.fidonet.orgDiana.Dawne@f432.n109.z1.fidonet.org (Diana Dawne) (06/21/91)
Index Number: 16274
[This is from the Blink Talk Conference]
Margo, according to the Medi-Cal office in California, blind people only
have a social handicap and so aren't entitled to medical transportation.
I think that is the stupidist thing I ever heard. Fortunately my
insurance is with a private HMO and I don't have to be concerned about
that garbage. I know that this doesn't apply to everyone here, but I
have taken the attitude that if I look so bad that it appears I will be
ushered into the immediatepresentspresence of ST. Pete. I also don't
use public transportation if I feel so badly that I don't feel that I
can make judgments. Venture is wonderful, but it is only fair to ask so
much. If I just feel rotten, and may look quite pale, I use the bus.
* EZ 1.30 *
--
Uucp: ..!{decvax,oliveb}!bunker!hcap!hnews!109!432!Diana.Dawne
Internet: Diana.Dawne@f432.n109.z1.fidonet.orgDiana.Dawne@f432.n109.z1.fidonet.org (Diana Dawne) (06/21/91)
Index Number: 16275
[This is from the Blink Talk Conference]
I think you probably know where I stand on this issue. I do think that
you are right that if individuals only took from the government what
they need, that argument might make sense but people are not so
idealistic as all that. We all suffer from what a lot of people do, and
since it is not going to help anyone, I don't have a problem not paying
the dollar on the bus since it is within the law for me not to, and I
don't have problems with this.
* EZ 1.30 *
--
Uucp: ..!{decvax,oliveb}!bunker!hcap!hnews!109!432!Diana.Dawne
Internet: Diana.Dawne@f432.n109.z1.fidonet.orgGary.Petraccaro@f90.n129.z1.fidonet.org (Gary Petraccaro) (06/21/91)
Index Number: 16287
[This is from the Blink Talk Conference]
-> In a message to Margo Downey <05-31-91 14:47> William Wilson wrote:
->
-> WW> their end, but
-> WW> yes, if what you say is true, we can add it to the growing
-> WW> list of
-> WW> incongruities many of us see in the NFB!
Or we can just be grateful that some hoteliers practice
charity--a 2000-year-old tradition going back to a certain inn
owner. Oh, forgot, it's not good form to do that these days.
--
Uucp: ..!{decvax,oliveb}!bunker!hcap!hnews!129!90!Gary.Petraccaro
Internet: Gary.Petraccaro@f90.n129.z1.fidonet.orgDavid.Andrews@f89.n129.z1.fidonet.org (David Andrews) (06/21/91)
Index Number: 16292
[This is from the Blink Talk Conference]
JD> After reading your comments on free transportation for
JD> the blind and then reading the reply you received from
JD> Dan Kysor, I am forced to agree with Dan. He's absolutely
JD> correct when he states, infact itemizes, that many things wich
JD> cost the average sighted person only cents costs us so much
JD> more. The brailler verses the ball point pin is a perfect
JD> example. There are so many more. Another that pops to mind
JD> as I sit here typing away on this machine is all the extras I
JD> had to buy just to get into the world of computers.
Yes, there are things that cost us more, but there are things that we don't have
to buy at all, such as cars. Most of my sighted friends pay from $200 to $500 a
month for car payments, plus another $100 for insurance. No matter what, I know
that I don't spent that much money on taxi cabs and buses in a month. I suspect
that it evens out over the long run. The problem is that as a group, the income
level for the blind is lower, so it is harder to get a start.
JD> this whole issue brings to mind the thought that for so many
JD> years blind activists fought for just such considerations as
JD> extra tax exemptions and reduced public transportation fees.
JD> It seems a shame for this new radical view of blind
JD> independence should be deystroying so many hard won victories.
JD> Don't get me wrong. I'm as independent as I can be, I think.
JD> But there are limits to the amount of confusion we can force
JD> upon the sighte retain their respect. In other words, 1 blind
JD> pers another blind person says a completely different thing
JD> about h independence the next day. No wonder some sighted
JD> individuals act around blind persons. It's to bad there's not
JD> an organi does give a true a-cross-the-board representation
JD> of the blin whole. Please don't even try to say that the
JD> organization I can only sum up my feelings about N.F.B. in 2
JD> words, "IT call'em as I don't see'm!
When blind activists started lobbying for changes, back in the 1940's, survival
for blind persons was the main issue. When you read the early NFB speeches by
Dr. Jacobus Ten'broek, "welfare" was the big issue. In general blind people
stayed at home, some worked in sheltered workshops, some in vending, but most
not. There were of course exceptions, but not many.
Things are still not great, but they are getting better, so of course our
positions are going to change. Some day, many years down the road, we all will
get good training and have all the opportunities or lack thereof as anyone. At
that time, we certainly won't be asking for tax exemptions or discounted bus
fares. Ultimately, we can't have it both ways, we can't take and ask for full
responsibility at the same time, but it will take a while to get there. The
road will be rough and will at times even be bvlocked by blind persons, but we
will get there.
.... David Andrews
--
Uucp: ..!{decvax,oliveb}!bunker!hcap!hnews!129!89!David.Andrews
Internet: David.Andrews@f89.n129.z1.fidonet.orgMargo.Downey@f60.n382.z1.fidonet.org (Margo Downey) (06/22/91)
Index Number: 16350
[This is from the Blink Talk Conference]
Another thing--you talk specifically about incongruities of NFB. There are
incongruities in all groups and also in every individual's thinking. We all,
on one hand, might agree with something or do something but if a circumstance
changes, might do something else. Do you mean (gasp) to tell me that ACB is
perfect, that it has no incongruous thinking; and that the Republican party or
the Democratic Party is totally congruous; that all religious groups have
congruous thinking. Why single out one group? I can't do that--maybe that's
incongruous. I feel we are all here in life to figure it out and I don't know
a single person who's thinking hasn't been incongruous at some point.
--
Uucp: ..!{decvax,oliveb}!bunker!hcap!hnews!382!60!Margo.Downey
Internet: Margo.Downey@f60.n382.z1.fidonet.orgTim.Cumings@p0.f460.n101.z1.fidonet.org (Tim Cumings) (06/22/91)
Index Number: 16356
[This is from the Blink Talk Conference]
Just because blind people are pushing for the use of tiles doesn't mean
it's only a blindness issue, since sighted people are falling into the
subways. I don't see your distinction between tiles and guardrails. If
neither of them prevent people from falling off, as you say, then why
advocate either? Guardrails are more costly than tiles. No one in the
acbor anywhere else is saying that blind people should give up their
good mobility skills in favor of subway tiles or beeping traffic lights.
Why can't there be both options? Audible signals for blind people are
like walksigns for sighted people. Would you advocate getting rid of
walksigns because sighted people don't need them, or the lines on the
subway platform because they don't need them?
--
Uucp: ..!{decvax,oliveb}!bunker!hcap!hnews!101!460.0!Tim.Cumings
Internet: Tim.Cumings@p0.f460.n101.z1.fidonet.orgWilliam.Wilson@f89.n129.z1.fidonet.org (William Wilson) (06/25/91)
Index Number: 16404
[This is from the Blink Talk Conference]
DD> other adjectives I won't mention. I personally don't care for
DD> "sighty" either but have you noticed people who think "Blink"
DD> is wrong think "Sighty" is all right?
Diana,
Yes, I think you may have missed my message to Christine Marie in
which I pointed out how her discomfort with the word "blink" but her
almost casual use of the word "sighty" seemed ironic!
Funny, but at least to my ear, the word "blink" doesn't have any
negative commotations built into it, thus the need for them to be taught
by someone who sees it that way.
"Sightey", on the other hand, is obviously meant to be pejorative to
anyone who hears it, although of course it doesn't really mean much if
it is one wink talking to another I suppose. I'll test out my theory
later, but I suspect that if a blink calls a sighted person a "sightey"
with negative inflection, they will respond with "blindy",
cause for sure, they would assume most naturally that it be the
corresponding slam to a blind person, not "blink"!
DD> I have one other question. Venture asked me to inquire if
DD> Leeroy is allowed toys. I think more and more of the schools
DD> are frowning on this practice, but Venture has always had
DD> toys-- not tons of them that he could get at whenever he liked,
DD> but a couple of little things.
Actually, one of the things that surprised me about Seeing Eye this time
when I went to get LeeRoy was how they had changed in the opposite
direction on this one!
In 1979 when I got Strider, they didn't really say much about toys,
neither encouraging nor discouraging them. This time, however, one of
the instructors actually had a catalog of dog toys which she read to us
and took our orders, almost every one of us getting at least a couple
for our partners.
In fact, I am opening this up as a challenge to anyone here with a
dog, be it guide dog or regular mutt, in a tugg of war battle with
LeeRoy! He is, I am willing to bet whatever I have in my wallet at the
time, the meanest mother of a tugger this world has ever seen! He can
literally drag all 160 pounds of me from one end of this appartment to
the other, and scarcely work up a pant doing it!
In addition to his tug toy, he has one of these heavy rubber toys
they call a "kong", and after giving me my daily workout dragging me
around the appartment, he usually rewards me by dropping the quite heavy
toy on my crotch till I scream out in soprano, which for some reason
gives him great joy!
I honestly don't know if there is a tendancy towards toys for guide
dogs or away from toys by the schools, but I can't even imagine Lee B.D.
without his toys, and he will always have a tug toy and a kong in his
life so far as I am concerned! I don't even want to hazard a guess as
to what he would do with all that enthusiasm if he were without them!
Willie
... Like a bat out of Bellevue!
--
Uucp: ..!{decvax,oliveb}!bunker!hcap!hnews!129!89!William.Wilson
Internet: William.Wilson@f89.n129.z1.fidonet.orgDan.Kysor@f998.n203.z1.fidonet.org (Dan Kysor) (06/25/91)
Index Number: 16433
[This is from the Blink Talk Conference]
hi david. driving first of all is not a right but rather, a
privelege but reading and writting is a right in this country so i
still go back to the premise that education taught me to read and
write and so to practice this right, i need to purchase a brailler
now at around $500 as apposed to a 50 cent pen. there are
alternatives to transportation but sighted folks earn the
privellege to drive so by the n f b and other groups, in the 40s,
50s have fought to compensate for these ecconomic disparities by
enstating financial government subsity programs such as s s i.
what's the difference between recieving discounts from society's
perception of the blind's ecconomic situation or receiving s s i
from society's same perception???
--
Uucp: ..!{decvax,oliveb}!bunker!hcap!hnews!203!998!Dan.Kysor
Internet: Dan.Kysor@f998.n203.z1.fidonet.orgLois.Briggs@f89.n129.z1.fidonet.org (Lois Briggs) (06/28/91)
Index Number: 16503
[This is from the Blink Talk Conference]
Hi David,
I don't know why I chose to jump in on your message after listening to
quite a few on this subject, but I guess I just want to throw my two
cents worth in. You quoted:
JD>> many things wich
JD>> cost the average sighted person only cents costs us so much
JD>> more. The brailler verses the ball point pin is a perfect
JD>> example. There are so many more.
This is so very true and as you later said most blind earn so little
when compared with the sighted that sources of information as well
as pleasure aren't available to many of us.
DA> Yes, there are things that cost us more, but there are things
DA> that we don't have to buy at all, such as cars. Most of my
DA> sighted friends pay from $200 to $500 a month for car payments,
DA> plus another $100 for insurance. No matter what, I know that I
DA> don't spent that much money on taxi cabs and buses in a month.
However, many of us don't go many places at all simply because we can't
afford taxis and you can't always get where you want or need to go by
bus. I know for a fact that if I were sighted I would have been working
at a decent paying job for years and would own a car and be able to go
wherever I wanted whenever I wanted. It's certainly isn't that way now.
JD>> this whole issue brings to mind the thought that for so many
JD>> years blind activists fought for just such considerations as
JD>> extra tax exemptions and reduced public transportation fees.
JD>> It seems a shame for this new radical view of blind
JD>> independence should be deystroying so many hard won victories.
This is what you quoted that prompted my response. In my opinion once
something is taken away it's never restored. Those who can afford
to ride the buses full fare and who don't need the tax exemption are
certainly free to not avail themselves of them, but for those who really
need it, once it's lost, their lives are going to be effected greatly.
I am certain there are those who will take anything free they can get.
By that I mean anyone, not just the blind. Then there are others who
feel degraded by freebees, but on the whole I believe most blind people
need a little extra help IN ORDER TO BE AS INDEPENDENT AS THEY CAN BE.
That may sound contradictory but it isn't. For instance if they came
out with a car with artificial intelligence and I could open the door,
push a button and say, "take me to K-Mart" I certainly would be more
independent because I wouldn't have to ask a neighbor or friend for the
ride and I wouldn't need a bus fare reduction. The only problem then
would be that upon arriving at K-Mart I would once again be dependent
because every time I go in that store they've moved everything that was
in the front of the store to the back and everything that was on the
right to the left and I'm back to needing sighted help, and to some
that's not being independent.
If I could afford an Arkinstone I could be independent and read many
things, but would still be dependent on someone to read those things the
Arkinstone can't deal with. It's a never ending problem this elusive
independence. We can all be independent to one degree or another
depending on what special, expensive equipment we can afford to take the
place of human assistance. Those who are sighted aren't one hundred
percent independent in all things either. For instance my husband who
can see can't boil an egg, but he can jump in the car and go get an egg
McMuffin, so he won't starve. He can't sew on a button but he can stick
a safety pin in his pants and they won't fall down. I on the other hand
will never find out what's inside the envelope the postman brought today
unless someone reads it to me and when school calls that I have a sick
child that needs to be picked up, I can't go and get him. This happened
more than once and where I live I couldn't even get a taxi to come from
the city to the suburbs pick up the child and deliver him home because
by car the school is only 12 minutes from my home, but the school isn't
going to allow a sick child to walk home in the snow.
Sometimes things are no win situations and I know I got really long
winded here, but I guess I'm feeling sort of sorry for myself today,
which luckaly doesn't happen often. At any rate I'm not for giving up
anything. I feel I've given up quite enough in life due to the lose of
sight.
Lois
--
Uucp: ..!{decvax,oliveb}!bunker!hcap!hnews!129!89!Lois.Briggs
Internet: Lois.Briggs@f89.n129.z1.fidonet.orgDiana.Dawne@f432.n109.z1.fidonet.org (Diana Dawne) (06/28/91)
Index Number: 16516
[This is from the Blink Talk Conference]
Dan, this idea of blindness being a "Social handicap"isn't aplace, it is
in the regs of the California State Medi-Cal office. I discovered it
when trying to arrange medical transportationfor a blind person.
* EZ 1.30 *
--
Uucp: ..!{decvax,oliveb}!bunker!hcap!hnews!109!432!Diana.Dawne
Internet: Diana.Dawne@f432.n109.z1.fidonet.orgDavid.Andrews@f89.n129.z1.fidonet.org (David Andrews) (06/28/91)
Index Number: 16521
[This is from the Blink Talk Conference]
DK> hi david. driving first of all is not a right but rather, a
DK> privelege but reading and writting is a right in this country
DK> so i still go back to the premise that education taught me to
DK> read and write and so to practice this right, i need to
DK> purchase a brailler now at around $500 as apposed to a 50 cent
DK> pen. there are alternatives to transportation but sighted
DK> folks earn the privellege to drive so by the n f b and other
DK> groups, in the 40s, 50s have fought to compensate for these
DK> ecconomic disparities by enstating financial government subsity
DK> programs such as s s i. what's the difference between
DK> recieving discounts from society's perception of the blind's
DK> ecconomic situation or receiving s s i from society's same
DK> perception???
There are two classes of qualifications for SSI, one is blindness, another
handicap or old age, and the other is income related. If you make too much
money, you won't get it, no matter what. Some transit fare reductions are
solely based on disability, I believe, not income. Those are the ones I
wouldn't be in favor of. As I have said in a previous message, I believe the
time for these subsidies will pass, but not in my or your lifetime.
In one sense, there is no difference between SSI and other subsidies. However,
I think it is more of a complex issue then we think.
I suspect that much of society feels sorry for disabled persons. They have
guilt feelings because they are "able bodied" and we are not. One way to
assuage these guilt feelings is by taking care of us, and giving us things, such
as SSI and reduced transit fares then they are doing something. However,
ultimately, these are not the things that are going to win us our place in
society. Proper training, opportunity and improved attitudes are. So
ultimately, we will not help ourselves as a minority group by accepting these
things. I think we should use them as a stopgap measure, as a way out, not
becoming dependent on them. The happiest day in my life was when I went off
SSI.
Yes a braille writer is expensive. Do we have the right to have the government
buy us one. I don't know? It is probably a reasonable part of the
rehabilitation process, because it is a necessary tool towards getting a job.
All of these things are double-edged swords. You have certainly heard the
saying, "there is no thing as a free lunch." This is true for the blind as
well.
.... David andrews
--
Uucp: ..!{decvax,oliveb}!bunker!hcap!hnews!129!89!David.Andrews
Internet: David.Andrews@f89.n129.z1.fidonet.orgDavid.Andrews@f89.n129.z1.fidonet.org (David Andrews) (06/28/91)
Index Number: 16522
[This is from the Blink Talk Conference]
x
DD>> other adjectives I won't mention. I personally don't care for
DD>> "sighty" either but have you noticed people who think "Blink"
DD>> is wrong think "Sighty" is all right?
For what it is worth, I hate both. I have blind friends who use the word
sightie, and I don't like it, and never plan on using it again, if I ever have.
I have generally heard it used in light-hearted ways, but it has the effect of
separating us and pointing up differences. We are all people, sighted and blind
alike, and there are more similarities than differences.
... David andrews
--
Uucp: ..!{decvax,oliveb}!bunker!hcap!hnews!129!89!David.Andrews
Internet: David.Andrews@f89.n129.z1.fidonet.orgDavid.Andrews@f89.n129.z1.fidonet.org (David Andrews) (06/28/91)
Index Number: 16523
[This is from the Blink Talk Conference]
TG> okay Tim you just said the magic words, when you suggested
TG> that the nfb spend more time on employment, you have broken the
TG> Jamal rule and therefore as an expelled member of nfb I expell
TG> you from the organization go forth and sin no more. tom G
Tom, It is simplistic to think that if NFB had more of its staff, etc. directly
work on employment, (getting specific individuals jobs) that this would
dramatically solve the unemployment for the thousands of blind persons around
the country. Like most things, this is a complex issue and is primarily
involved with overall attitudes towards blindness, blind people, what we can do
and people's expectations of us.
Everything we do in the NFB, and everything that other groups of the blind do,
and individuals for that matter, is related in some way towards employment and
improving the situation.
We will only change this thing through public education and changing people's
attitudes. You do that one person at a time. So, even if we increased the Job
Opportunities for the Blind staff ten times, for example, that wouldn't solve
the overall problem.
Unemployment of the blind is not one single issue that can be solved by passing
a single law or by any one specific act.
It is something that can only be changed by a variety of actions over a long
period of time.
... David andrews
--
Uucp: ..!{decvax,oliveb}!bunker!hcap!hnews!129!89!David.Andrews
Internet: David.Andrews@f89.n129.z1.fidonet.orgLois.Briggs@f89.n129.z1.fidonet.org (Lois Briggs) (06/28/91)
Index Number: 16552
[This is from the Blink Talk Conference]
Hello David, and this really is a "Hot Topic" is it not?
DA> You and Jake are saying that the "new view of blindness" is
DA> taking something away from us. I don't see it that way at all.
I am not objecting to the "new view" of blindness if we are both talking
about the group known as the "blind" being given equal opportunities in
all things and being viewed as capable human beings with something to
contribute to the good of all. No more than I object to that premiss
for Blacks, foreigners, women or any other "group" as a whole.
DA> I think our progress as a group is a dynamic thing.
Again, if you are speaking about the fact that with each passing year,
through education and technology, more and more people become aware that
a properly trained blind person can do most things as well as those with
sight, then I agree with this statement. But, it's the individual blind person
that concerns me not the blind as a group.
DA> Eventually, blind people as a whole won't need subsidies. We
DA> may as individuals, but not solely because of our blindness.
This is the statement I tend to disagree with you on. No matter how you
cut it there will ALWAYS be those people faced with blindness who simply
can't hurdle all the emotional obsticles caused by the loss of their
sight and emerge as a well trained, confident and independent person.
There will be those who will never earn enough money to
be self-supporting or be able to afford the high tech items that allow
them to do things they couldn't do otherwise, and for whom these, shall we
call them "perks" will not only be nice but necessary, therefore, I would never
want to be the one to eliminate these things for those who really need
them. Again, I have no problem with someone not availing themselves of
any type of assistance if they don't need it, just with eliminating the
availability of the help for those who do.
DA> Let me give you an example. I could spend $4000 and
DA> buy an Ar spend much time and read most of my mail by myself.
DA> It woul things be very time consuming. I could also hire a
DA> reader, t him/her instructions and read my mail that way. Am
DA> I less use a reader.
Of course not, but finding volunteers to help out isn't anything like I
first thought it would be when I began losing my sight. I was certain
the people I knew would be only too happy to read things to me or help
me out in some other way from time to time, just because they could do
these things and I no longer could. I never bothered anyone on a
daily basis or hounded them to death. I never expected them to do these
things for me without my repaying them in some way, but money was and
still is out of the question, except on an occasional basis, and the
monetary help of reduced bus fares and the tax credit is what we were
talking about, and is a great help to many of us.
Lois
--
Uucp: ..!{decvax,oliveb}!bunker!hcap!hnews!129!89!Lois.Briggs
Internet: Lois.Briggs@f89.n129.z1.fidonet.org