Tim.Cumings@p0.f460.n101.z1.fidonet.org (Tim Cumings) (06/04/91)
Index Number: 15958
[This is from the Blink Talk Conference]
I wonder how many of you saw the article in the Braille Monitor a couple
of months ago entitled "I'd Rather be Mugged," written by Michael
Bailiff. In the article Mr. Bailiff describes how he was almost mugged
one night near the campus of Yale University, but when the mugger found
out he was blind he decided not to mug him. Mr. Bailiff argues that he
shouldn't be given any special treatment, because he is blind. I agree
with this principle to an extent, but I feel Mr. Bailiff has taken it to
its absurd conclusion. Can you imagine a woman writing into a newspaper
that she would rather be raped than be exempt from that violent crime
because of her blindness. Apparently, Mr. Bailiff would agree with this
position. Principles are important, but when they are seen as more
important than people's lives, that's where I draw the line. I'd like
to know what other people think about this. I'm sure there are members
of both blind consumer organizations on this echo, as well as members of
neither.
--
Uucp: ..!{decvax,oliveb}!bunker!hcap!hnews!101!460.0!Tim.Cumings
Internet: Tim.Cumings@p0.f460.n101.z1.fidonet.orgmgflax@phoenix.princeton.edu (Marshall G. Flax) (06/06/91)
Index Number: 15998 In article <15958@handicap.news> Tim.Cumings@p0.f460.n101.z1.fidonet.org writes: >Index Number: 15958 > >I wonder how many of you saw the article in the Braille Monitor a couple >of months ago entitled "I'd Rather be Mugged," written by Michael >Bailiff. In the article Mr. Bailiff describes how he was almost mugged >one night near the campus of Yale University, but when the mugger found >out he was blind he decided not to mug him. Mr. Bailiff argues that he >shouldn't be given any special treatment, because he is blind. I agree >with this principle to an extent, but I feel Mr. Bailiff has taken it to >its absurd conclusion. Can you imagine a woman writing into a newspaper >that she would rather be raped than be exempt from that violent crime >because of her blindness. Apparently, Mr. Bailiff would agree with this >position. Principles are important, but when they are seen as more >important than people's lives, that's where I draw the line. I'd like >to know what other people think about this. I'm sure there are members >of both blind consumer organizations on this echo, as well as members of >neither. > Tim, It seems to me that your analogy between robbing a blind person and raping a woman fails on several counts. The first point is that women are raped *because* they are women -- we live in a society that, in uncountably many ways, says that it is acceptable to treat women as objects of desire and violence. If women were treated as men, they wouldn't be raped. If men were treated as badly as women are, there would be an outcry the likes of which have never been experienced in this country. If I were a woman, I would love to be free of the additional violence that I would face solely because I was a woman. Violence, in this country, is decreasing against men and increasing against women. Coincidence? The second point on which the analogy fails is that, while rape is always a deliberately violent act, simple robbery may often be purely economic. And being economic, it is fair to compare it to other economic factors. So I can understand a blind person who would rather have $100 stolen from him/her once than perpetuate sterotypes that keep him/her underemployed or unemployed. I can also understand a woman who says that she would rather not have to face *additional* violence as a woman. Perhaps a better analogy would be the following: a woman who would rather lose her job than wear high-heels because submiting to a corporate culture that demands that women have their rears stuck up into the air perpetuates an athmosphere that encourages men to rape women. /****************************************************************************/ /* Marshall Gene Flax '89 (609)258-6739 mgflax@phoenix.Princeton.EDU */ /* c/o Jack Gelfand|Psychology Dept|Princeton University|Princeton NJ 08544 */ /****************************************************************************/
Diana.Dawne@f432.n109.z1.fidonet.org (Diana Dawne) (06/18/91)
Index Number: 16100
[This is from the Blink Talk Conference]
The public does seem to have an interesting view of handicapped persons
being robbed or otherwise bothered don't they? I have had strangers
write checks for me and handle money such as giving me change for years
and never had a problem until one day when the "waitress" in a coffee
shop-store type place took a twenty dollar bill to get me change.
Unfortunately, one of the regular employees saw the woman leaving in a
hurry and they were very upset that such a terrible thing had been done
to a blind person because you see, the "waitress" was just a person off
the street. I recall being annoyed but remarking that well, crime
knows no barriers and it is just as disgusting to do it to me as to
anyone else.
* EZ 1.30 *
--
Uucp: ..!{decvax,oliveb}!bunker!hcap!hnews!109!432!Diana.Dawne
Internet: Diana.Dawne@f432.n109.z1.fidonet.orgMika.Pyyhkala@p0.f460.n101.z1.fidonet.org (Mika Pyyhkala) (06/18/91)
Index Number: 16102
[This is from the Blink Talk Conference]
Hi Tim,
Good point for discussion you brought up.
Another possible situation to ponder:
We likee to talk about airlines on this echo, so
heres another twist to the airline, and things you've discussed.
Now, let's suppose you are on a flight. Everything has
gone fine, no wheelchairs, no arrogant flight crews.
Your sitting back having a drink, and the aircraft is hijacked.
Finally, the hijackers land the plain, and there everybody
is on the ground in some airport, panick stricken, unsure
what is going to happen.
Now let's suppose that you are the only handicapped
person on the plane.
Also, let's suppose that you are about 20 years of age, and
that there are lots of 20 year-olds, and you are the only blind ones.
Let's also supose that there are some elderly people on
board.
Now, often hijackers will release "elderly, and handicapped," people.
What if the hijackers said they would release you?
Or, what if they took it a step further, and said they would
release you because you were blind?
You could say on, and tell them you don't want special treatment
because you are blind. Who knows what they would do, or
how they would react.
Or, you could agree to be released, and then on TV, and
in the press, you could here, John Doe,
a blind person, was released from the Flight 417 hijacking,
while the other passengers are on the plane.
Both choices would involve a degree of disadvantage and risk:
On the one hand, you could be more assured of life.
Or on the other hand, you could stay on, and I'm sure
you'd get a lot of press attention there too, headlines like,
"blind person stays on hijacked aircraft, says prerelease was
discriminatory"
So, what any one of us would do, I don't know if we could predict for
sure.
--
Uucp: ..!{decvax,oliveb}!bunker!hcap!hnews!101!460.0!Mika.Pyyhkala
Internet: Mika.Pyyhkala@p0.f460.n101.z1.fidonet.orgTim.Cumings@p0.f460.n101.z1.fidonet.org (Tim Cumings) (06/18/91)
Index Number: 16107
[This is from the Blink Talk Conference]
"i think this was the writers clever way of capturingpeople's attention
to the more daily issues that blind people face regardingtheir
treatment. it almost sounded satirical and this is an very effetcive
writing technique." this is a subjective opinion, but I don't think Mr.
Bailiff's example was meant to be satirical. There's nothing funny about
being mugged. "by the way be careful when comparing mugging to rape
because there is no comparison." I was not drawing a direct analoagy
between rape and mugging. My point was that why would any person wish to
be a victim of a crime, any crime, just to prove a principle? As far as
feminists, go, they don't frighten me. I've never prided myself on
always being politically correct, and I'm not about to start now.
s
--
Uucp: ..!{decvax,oliveb}!bunker!hcap!hnews!101!460.0!Tim.Cumings
Internet: Tim.Cumings@p0.f460.n101.z1.fidonet.orgLois.Briggs@f89.n129.z1.fidonet.org (Lois Briggs) (06/18/91)
Index Number: 16110
[This is from the Blink Talk Conference]
In the article Mr. Bailiff describes how he
TC> was almost mugged one night near the campus of Yale University,
TC> but when the mugger found out he was blind he decided not to
TC> mug him. Mr. Bailiff argues that he shouldn't be given any
TC> special treatment, because he is blind.
I'd like to know
TC> what other people think about this.
I've voiced few opinions on subjects such as this one in the past, but
can't pass this one up. It seems to me there are "perks" to just about
everything in life, and if being blind saves me from a rape, mugging or
robbery -- JUST CALL ME BLINK OR WINK OR WHATEVER YOU WANT! Of course
SWEETIE PIE is my preference.
--
Uucp: ..!{decvax,oliveb}!bunker!hcap!hnews!129!89!Lois.Briggs
Internet: Lois.Briggs@f89.n129.z1.fidonet.orgWalter.Siren@p18.f5.n396.z1.fidonet.org (Walter Siren) (06/18/91)
Index Number: 16116
[This is from the Blink Talk Conference]
DD> being robbed or otherwise bothered don't they? I have had strangers
DD> write checks for me and handle money such as giving me change for years
DD> and never had a problem until one day when the "waitress" in a coffee
DD> shop-store type place took a twenty dollar bill to get me change.
DD> Unfortunately, one of the regular employees saw the woman leaving in a
DD> hurry and they were very upset that such a terrible thing had been done
DD> to a blind person because you see, the "waitress" was just a person off
DD> the street. I recall being annoyed but remarking that well, crime
DD> knows no barriers and it is just as disgusting to do it to me as to
DD> anyone else.
While this is true, you might say that this was discrimination in
reverse. The reason this person did that to you, was because you
are blind, and you could not see that she was not a waitress.
Frankly, I think that is rare today for a criminal to let you slide
because you are blind. This was true in the olden days, but today
it is because you are blind, that you make an easier prey that they
will choose you.
Btw you are luckey that you never had any problems with people
giving you change,etc. before now. I ran a vending stand, and
therefore worked with the public with money for most of my life,
and I can assure, that they know that we are easy prey. I have had
several problems with people telling me the wrong bill
denomination, and a lot of merchandize was stolen from my counter
because I could not see them. It is a good thing that the majority
of the public is honest, but believe me, it is getting worse each
day. Twenty years ago, I did not have near the problems that I was
having by the time I retired three years ago. It is getting worse
by the day. Of course is crime in general. But, today it knows
less discrimination than it use to.
Walter
--
Uucp: ..!{decvax,oliveb}!bunker!hcap!hnews!396!5.18!Walter.Siren
Internet: Walter.Siren@p18.f5.n396.z1.fidonet.orgJeff.Salzberg@f89.n129.z1.fidonet.org (Jeff Salzberg) (06/18/91)
Index Number: 16122
[This is from the Blink Talk Conference]
TC> After all, consistency is the
TC> hobgobblin of small minds, isn't it?"
The correct quote (from Ralph Waldo Emerson) is, "A FOOLISH (my caps)
consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds."
There is nothing wrong with being consistent unless it is carried to a
ridiculous extreme.
... Guns don't kill people. PEOPLE kill people...with GUNS....
--
Uucp: ..!{decvax,oliveb}!bunker!hcap!hnews!129!89!Jeff.Salzberg
Internet: Jeff.Salzberg@f89.n129.z1.fidonet.orgMargo.Downey@f60.n382.z1.fidonet.org (Margo Downey) (06/18/91)
Index Number: 16125
[This is from the Blink Talk Conference]
Mika, remember that cruise ship that was hijacked--what was the name? And the
only guy--or the first guy killed--was the elderly man who used a
wheelchair. Now, one could say that he took risks by being so outspoken and
not cooperating fully with his captors. And that's why he was shot. One
could say he was disabled and vulnerable--that's why he was shot . . . Don't
know. But I can assure you that I, personally, would have to evaluate the
situation and preserve my life as much as I could. We humans do have that
survival instinct.
--
Uucp: ..!{decvax,oliveb}!bunker!hcap!hnews!382!60!Margo.Downey
Internet: Margo.Downey@f60.n382.z1.fidonet.orgTom.Gerhart@f208.n273.z1.fidonet.org (Tom Gerhart) (06/18/91)
Index Number: 16142
[This is from the Blink Talk Conference]
If there are any blind people who want to be mugged just come to the
city of brotherly love and we can get you mugged in a few hours. tom G
* EZ 1.33 *
--
Uucp: ..!{decvax,oliveb}!bunker!hcap!hnews!273!208!Tom.Gerhart
Internet: Tom.Gerhart@f208.n273.z1.fidonet.orgJake.Daniel@f998.n203.z1.fidonet.org (Jake Daniel) (06/18/91)
Index Number: 16164
Hi Lois,
Well, I was looking around my board when I saw your message. Some
how I couldn't resist throwing my oar in on this one. It appears
to me, that if a mugger let's you go because your a Blink, you
should count yourself lucky and not spend to much time complaining
about the fact that you weren't treated like a sighted person. Is
it just me, or do some people carry this Equal Opportunity stuff
just a little over the edge? Well, maybe not just a little over
the edge, upon reflection I can think of a few bats who have
carried it over into the Twilight Zone.
Infact, this story brings to mind a over active thyroid case, not
to mention over active imagination, N.F.B'er I knew who believed
that there should be a blind terrorist organization. I'm not
kidding! She preposed to blow up airports and airliners because of
the bulkhead seating question. Maybe some forms of blindness
effect the brain? !GRIN!
Still, I get a kick imagining the way that poor mugger must have
felt upon finding that his kind offer had been taken as a slight
and an afront. Can you imagine the stories he's still telling
about the night he tried to mug a blind person? Probably became a
mugger's folk tale.
Until later, Jake
--
Uucp: ..!{decvax,oliveb}!bunker!hcap!hnews!203!998!Jake.Daniel
Internet: Jake.Daniel@f998.n203.z1.fidonet.orgBeth.Hatch-Alleyne@f207.n260.z1.fidonet.org (Beth Hatch-Alleyne) (06/18/91)
Index Number: 16169
[This is from the Blink Talk Conference]
Jeff; that's precisely the problem. People think we're more
vulnerable than sighted people, but the record doesn't show it.
Blind people were not victimized by criminals any more than sighted
people. I myself have taken self defense classes, and I know of a
number of blind people who have done the same. I also know people
who are martial arts experts. It is a common misconception that
we're more vulnerable than the average sighted person, some of us
are, and some of us aren't, just like the sighted population. But
blindness, itself, doesn't mean we're unable to handle ourselves in
a mugging, or that muggers will try to mug us. Some will think it's
easy, and some will do it, while others will not in Tyrone's case,
Beth.[D
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Uucp: ..!{decvax,oliveb}!bunker!hcap!hnews!260!207!Beth.Hatch-Alleyne
Internet: Beth.Hatch-Alleyne@f207.n260.z1.fidonet.orgGary.Petraccaro@f90.n129.z1.fidonet.org (Gary Petraccaro) (06/18/91)
Index Number: 16175
[This is from the Blink Talk Conference]
-> In a message to Tim Cumings <05-23-91 15:14> Mika Pyyhkala wrote:
->
-> MP> "blind person stays on hijacked aircraft, says prerelease
-> MP> was discriminatory"
-> MP> So, what any one of us would do, I don't know if we could
-> MP> predict for sure.
Real simple, as far as I can see. If I have friends/relatives in the
group, I stick (assuming the hijackers will let me), otherwise, so long,
guys. Funny, I never thought of living my life so intensely concerned how
anyone but me and my significant others took what I did. There are plusses
and minuses to that, of course.
--
Uucp: ..!{decvax,oliveb}!bunker!hcap!hnews!129!90!Gary.Petraccaro
Internet: Gary.Petraccaro@f90.n129.z1.fidonet.orgGary.Petraccaro@f90.n129.z1.fidonet.org (Gary Petraccaro) (06/18/91)
Index Number: 16176
[This is from the Blink Talk Conference]
-> In a message to Tim Cumings <05-23-91 17:47> Lois Briggs wrote:
->
-> LB> I've voiced few opinions on subjects such as this one in
-> LB> the past, but
-> LB> can't pass this one up. It seems to me there are "perks"
-> LB> to just about
-> LB> everything in life, and if being blind saves me from a
-> LB> rape, mugging or
-> LB> robbery -- JUST CALL ME BLINK OR WINK OR WHATEVER YOU WANT!
You know, I wouldn't have thought of this if it hadn't been for your
message, but...
As long as he doesn't want to be discriminated against, I guess I
should look him up and mug him. Then, we'd have two plusses, he'd be blind
and mugged, I'd be blind and mugger. Of course, in keeping with the NFB's
success orientation I'd want to get away scot free--who wants to be looked
at as incompetent after all?
--
Uucp: ..!{decvax,oliveb}!bunker!hcap!hnews!129!90!Gary.Petraccaro
Internet: Gary.Petraccaro@f90.n129.z1.fidonet.orgMika.Pyyhkala@f460.n101.z1.fidonet.org (Mika Pyyhkala) (06/28/91)
Index Number: 16536
[This is from the Blink Talk Conference]
Hi,
I am curious?
If you, I, or any other blind person goes for a job interview,
and let's say the employer says the job has been filled, and
then we see an add in the paper two days later,
wouldn't that be a textbook discrimination lawsuit victory.
What excuse could the employer give. They could say
that they found someone, and then
decided aagainst the person, but the
lawyers could subpoena the aleged person.
I'm not purshing the lawsuit idea soely for personal
proffit, but it also would teach employers, although
admitidly in a harsh way, that they should not discriminate
against the blind, and have reservations,m
and not even try to resolve them.
Have you ever called one of these people in a situation
like you described, and if so what did they say?
Personally, I'm just going into my sophmore year in
college, so I haven't had the pleasure of
experiencing these problems full-fledged yet.
In terms of college job hunting, ppeople don't seem to
act in a discriminatory manner, and have
generally been willing to try to work out alternative
techniques.
Talk to you,
Mika
... Xpress Yourself!
--
Uucp: ..!{decvax,oliveb}!bunker!hcap!hnews!101!460!Mika.Pyyhkala
Internet: Mika.Pyyhkala@f460.n101.z1.fidonet.orgWilliam.Wilson@f89.n129.z1.fidonet.org (William Wilson) (06/28/91)
Index Number: 16540
[This is from the Blink Talk Conference]
Jeff,
I don't usually leave messages just to show my agreement with
someone on an issue, but I have been in total accord with you in most
everything you've posted to date, and figured I could cover it all in a
single message, so why not?
As others have said, I understand your concerns over your use of
violence against that hooligan who was pestering your dog, but agree
with them that there is just as good a chance you thwarted him from
messing with one of us in the future as there is a chance he will take
it out on one of us. Likewise, I can totally empathasize with your
defensive nature concerning your four legged companion, as I am the same
way! Heck, I get pretty nasty when someone has provoked a little squeel
of pain from LeeRoy quite by accident, like stepping on his tail in the
dark, I don't even want to think about how ugly I would get if someone
was intentionally trying to hurt him.
Finally, your message to Beth about the misuse of statistics sounds
much like what I've put out in a paper or two in my college days! Not
only are the statistics being casually thrown out in the echo concerning
pornography, however, they are being just as casually dismissed when
they don't support a position that people want to take! For example,
when statistics suggest that on the average braille reading is slower
than print reading, the methodology of the experimenters is assumed to
be at fault, but when one wants to believe that blind people can exit an
airplane crash as effectively as a sighted person, statements like
"statistics show that blind people can open an emergency door as quickly
as sighted people" are made. Tell me, can you even begin to conceive
what it would involve to design an experiment to compare the safety
factor with the single variable being whether the person sitting in the
emergency row were sighted or not, and whose findings would be
statistically significant?
Yes Jeff, I am very glad to have your board as our northern link,
and definately, very proud of your origin line!
Willie
... BlinkTalk, Dr. Deb and Silver in Pittsburgh!
--
Uucp: ..!{decvax,oliveb}!bunker!hcap!hnews!129!89!William.Wilson
Internet: William.Wilson@f89.n129.z1.fidonet.orgJeff.Salzberg@f89.n129.z1.fidonet.org (Jeff Salzberg) (06/28/91)
Index Number: 16542
[This is from the Blink Talk Conference]
WW> Heck, I get pretty nasty when someone has provoked a little
WW> squeel of pain from LeeRoy quite by accident, like stepping on
WW> his tail in the dark
Many sighted persons use adaptive viewing devices called "lamps". The
National Federation of the Sighted is trying to ban such conspicuous
adaptations, as we feel that it calls attention to our sightedness
and therefore might cause blind employers not to hire us.
... Money is the root of all evil - and a person NEEDS roots.
--
Uucp: ..!{decvax,oliveb}!bunker!hcap!hnews!129!89!Jeff.Salzberg
Internet: Jeff.Salzberg@f89.n129.z1.fidonet.orgStew.Bowden@f6.n377.z1.fidonet.org (Stew Bowden) (06/28/91)
Index Number: 16564
[This is from the Blink Talk Conference]
MP> If you, I, or any other blind person goes for a job interview,
MP> and let's say the employer says the job has been filled, and
MP> then we see an add in the paper two days later,
MP> wouldn't that be a textbook discrimination lawsuit victory.
Hi Mika: not necessarily. The employer could claim that the add happened to
remain in the paper after the job had been filled.
MP> Have you ever called one of these people in a situation
MP> like you described, and if so what did they say?
Mika: you are never going to rid the world of discrimination. However, hard
work, and a determination to be better than average in whatever you do, will win
in the end for you. Even when you are successfully gainfully employed, that does
not mean that discrimination is ended. There will always be those who feel you
are inferrior just because you are blind. In my book, those are the people I
ignore and work around, because no matter what you do, you will never change
them.
--
Uucp: ..!{decvax,oliveb}!bunker!hcap!hnews!377!6!Stew.Bowden
Internet: Stew.Bowden@f6.n377.z1.fidonet.org