Mary.Otten@p0.f1055.n261.z1.fidonet.org (Mary Otten) (06/18/91)
Index Number: 16144 [This is from the Blink Talk Conference] In your message to Tim, yoj mentioned that NFB looked at overlap and possible raifications of one issue upon another. My argument is, how far out do the possibleramifications have to be before they are judged to be of low probability, or before the advantage gained to blind people by use of the technology or adaptive equipment involved outweighs sch possible ramifications? I'm sick of hearing about how this or that modification can't be put in because somebody in the NFB or anywhere else, for that matter, has decided that it's bad, hurts peoples' chances of getting a job or maybe hurts the immage of blind people as fully functional always independent human beings. In point of fact, not all blind people are "fully independent" and not all blind people are super travelers, and not all blind people are this or that or whatever else the NFB wants to portray as the immage of the ideal blind person.Some of us can make good use of some of this adaptive equipment. Take the tiles for instance. What on earth is wrong with putting them in subways or in other places where a misstep could really prove at the least a serious problem and at worst, could lead to death? Somebody made a point on here that blind people should have good mobility training and not need things like these tiles or audible signals etc. Well, the operative word there is should. There shouldn't be wars, but we have defense forces because there still are. There shouldn't be robberies, but lots of people have security systems on their houses because they feel safer, more protected against robgers. Even with great mobility training, not all blind people have the same aptitude for it. Why deprive the large numbers of people who could benefit from the judicious use of adaptive equipment from being more independent than they otherwise would feel they could be because you are worried about a hypothetical immage problem? By you, Idon't necessarily mean you personally, but the body of those who would deprive others of useful aids because they are worried about what some nebulous third party may or may not think? -- Uucp: ..!{decvax,oliveb}!bunker!hcap!hnews!261!1055.0!Mary.Otten Internet: Mary.Otten@p0.f1055.n261.z1.fidonet.org
Margo.Downey@f60.n382.z1.fidonet.org (Margo Downey) (06/18/91)
Index Number: 16184 [This is from the Blink Talk Conference] If you'll note in my message to Tim about tiles, I said that he used his mobility skills in conjunction with tiles in subway platforms, etc.--or would do that. I am only going to speak for myself in this message and state that what concerns me is that many people--blind people and professionals--downplay one thing because they think something easier's come along. I think one thing I say and NFB says is that there aren't going to be tiles everywhere; not going to be audible signals everywhere; Braille on elevators everywhere, and folks need a plethora of skills and attitudes to get them to where they need to go and what they need to do. We have already seen many teachers say Braille's not really important any more and it isn't efficient--so let's use tapes and other auditory materials. Let's make the child read print with his/her vision even though it's 11 words per minute--just a random figure. If a lot of various things are available, the person can choose what to do--what to use. I believe that, even with new technology and stuff like that, that nothing can replace traditional ways of doing things--like Braille, canes, dog guides, etc., etc. Technology and new ways of doing things can be used along with the traditional ways sometimes. -- Uucp: ..!{decvax,oliveb}!bunker!hcap!hnews!382!60!Margo.Downey Internet: Margo.Downey@f60.n382.z1.fidonet.org
David.Andrews@f89.n129.z1.fidonet.org (David Andrews) (06/28/91)
Index Number: 16524 [This is from the Blink Talk Conference] TC> Jake, there are two high placed NFB officials who are never seen TC> anywhere without a sighted guide. Why don't they stop the TC> hypocrisy. Or is this another version of "do as I say, not as I TC> do!" Tim, For whatever reason, you aren't willing to mention names, just make allegations. I will presume, for debates sake, that you mean Dr. Jernigan and Marc Maurer, since they are the highest NFB officials. I have traveled with both, and they both travel independently with their canes, when they choose too. Mr. Maurer helped me move into my third floor apartment, without a sighted guide. At National Convention, they both chhose at times to travel with a sighted guide. It allows them to get through crowds more quickly, to find people they are looking for more easily, and thus to accomplish much more. The issue isn't one of cane equals independence versus sighted guide equals dependence. A sighted guide can be a valid travel technique. The point is one of choosing the best tool and control. Believe me, when either uses a sighted guide, they are in complete control of where they go, and when etc. Finally, many of the long cane techniques, and teaching techniques that are used around the country were developed by Dr. Jernigan at the Iowa Commission for the Blind, so to imply that he can't travel is ludicrous. ... David andrews -- Uucp: ..!{decvax,oliveb}!bunker!hcap!hnews!129!89!David.Andrews Internet: David.Andrews@f89.n129.z1.fidonet.org
Bill.Koppelmann@f810.n104.z1.fidonet.org (Bill Koppelmann) (06/28/91)
Index Number: 16592 [This is from the Blink Talk Conference] JM> Regarding the implications of Dr. Jernigan and Mr. Maurer JM> traveling frequently with sighted guides, I have observed them JM> both to be good cane travellers, especially Mr. Maurer, who is JM> perhaps the best cane traveller I have ever observed. I do JM> think, however, that the extent to which they use sighted JM> assistants raises philosophical questions. If a sighted JM> assistant is an equivalent technique to travelling alone with a JM> cane, then why all the emphasis on learning these skills and JM> getting orientation centers to require that they be learned? Jamal, i think you pose a very serious and important question here. One of the issues that Dr. Jernigan harps on quite a lot is the lack of role models for people like Dr. Tenbroek and other leaders who started the movement. For me, I would tend to feel that what these leaders are speaking is more than rhetoric if what you have written above were not so much the case. Bill K. -- Uucp: ..!{decvax,oliveb}!bunker!hcap!hnews!104!810!Bill.Koppelmann Internet: Bill.Koppelmann@f810.n104.z1.fidonet.org
Jamal.Mazrui@p0.f460.n101.z1.fidonet.org (Jamal Mazrui) (06/28/91)
Index Number: 16593 [This is from the Blink Talk Conference] I am not saying that blind persons should not, especially if they lack good travel skills, use sighted guides. It is partly because Mr. Maurer and Dr. Jernigan have such good skills and are necessarily viewed as examples of the philosophy of alternative techniques that they have a special obligation to travel independently as much as possible. I am not quibbling about using a guide to make urgent passage through a crowd, or some other unusual circumstance. The problem is that the sighted guide technique seems to be the dominant not occasional mode of travel at conventions and other important public activities. --Jamal-- -- Uucp: ..!{decvax,oliveb}!bunker!hcap!hnews!101!460.0!Jamal.Mazrui Internet: Jamal.Mazrui@p0.f460.n101.z1.fidonet.org