consensus@cdp.UUCP (06/03/90)
The following topic is from the Groupware SIG on America Online. For more information, or to reply to an individual on America Online, contact: * Christopher Allen - Consensus Development * P.O. Box 2836, Union City, CA 94587-7836 * AT&T: (415) 487-9206 * America Online: AFL MacDev * AppleLink: D3516 * Internet: cdp!consensus@arisia.xerox.com * UUCP: uunet!pyramid!cdp!consensus :: topic "Xanadu Conf 5/17" from America Online :: Subj: Xanadu Conf 5/17 90-05-17 14:43:03 EDT From: AFL MacDev Msgs: 4 (90-05-25) Tonight at 10 PM EDT (7 PM PDT) we will be a discussion on "Project Xanadu" in the Mac Developers Forum (Keyword: MDV). Our special guest will be Bob Perez, of Xanadu Operating Company. He will be discussing Xanadu Technologies and the Xanadu Developer Program. More Info on Project Xanadu from Bob Perez [XanaduDev]: After nearly 15 years of telling the world about Ted Nelson's Project Xanadu, we at Xanadu Operating Company are finally nearing completion of the Xanadu Information Server. Often referred to as the world's oldest startup, XOC, Inc. has been quietly working on a new technology for information processing, and will shortly enter the beta-test stage of the long-awaited Xanadu Server. Earlier demonstrations of this technology resulted in the company's purchase in 1988 by AutoDesk, Inc. Although most people think of Xanadu as primarily a hypertext product, the real story is that Xanadu uses state-of-the-art hypertext technology to deliver the foundation for the next generation of collaborative software. Having a Xanadu Server on your network will enable you to share and track information in ways not previously possible, and will enable powerful new applications that specialize in workgroup productivity. We see our market as any site that has spent the time and the money to install a local area network, and we're making the Server available for Macintosh, Sun and PC-compatible workstations. The Macintosh version should be available by the end of this calendar year, followed shortly by the Sun and somewhat later by the PC versions. The Xanadu system is based on a client/server architecture that segments its work into two components: the BackEnd and the FrontEnd. We are developing the Server itself (the BackEnd), and will NOT be competing with the Developer community by going into the FrontEnd business. For this product to be successful, of course, we must have a good supply of FrontEnd applications supporting the full range of application possibilities. That's where the Xanadu Developer Program comes in. My name is Bob Perez and I'm manager of the Xanadu Developer Program. I came from two years as manager of the Macintosh Software Evangelism group for Apple Computer, Inc., and I've applied the lessons I learned there to help get insanely great Xanadu FrontEnds written in time for our product launch later this year. I'll be available in the forum to discuss the components of the Xanadu Developer Program, the Xanadu Server, or any related subjects. See you there! -- Bob Perez
consensus@cdp.UUCP (06/03/90)
The following file is from the Groupware SIG on America Online.
For more information, or to reply to an individual on America
Online, contact:
* Christopher Allen - Consensus Development
* P.O. Box 2836, Union City, CA 94587-7836
* AT&T: (415) 487-9206
* America Online: AFL MacDev
* AppleLink: D3516
* Internet: cdp!consensus@arisia.xerox.com
* UUCP: uunet!pyramid!cdp!consensus
:: file "MDV CO 900517.txt" from America Online ::
Mac Developer's Forum Conference on America Online
5/17/90
XanaduDev : Ahem.
AFL MacDev: Ok...
Our guest tonight is Bob Perez, of the...
Xanadu Operating Company (affectionately called
XOC)...
Before his stint at Xanadu...
Bob was an evangelist at Apple Computer...
thus is advocate...
of the Macintosh. Tonight Bob will....
be talking about the status of Project Xanadu...
and a little about the Xanadu Developer Program.
Afterwards we will have a Q&A.
Bob, why don't you first start with a little
background on Xanadu. ga
XanaduDev : Ok...
First, I want to say that Guy was right. America
Online is a slick place to be...
XanaduDev: Most people who've heard about Project Xanadu have
either heard Ted Nelson speak about it,
or read his books. Unfortunately, he's been telling
the world about it for so many years now,
a lot of people have wondered if it's real, and if
so, where it is. I'm here to tell you that ...
after nearly 15 years of design and development, we
are finally nearing light at the end of the tunnel
Our current schedule has us delivering beta software
this summer (!), and shipping the first...
actual Server later in the year. It is real, it does
work, and it really is going to change the ...
way people use their computers over a network. After
a round of prototype demonstrations,
a majority interest in XOC was purchased by Autodesk,
Inc. The resulting funding has had a ...
amazing effect on our product delivery plans. ...
I'm curious how many people here know roughly what
the Xanadu Server is/will be?
YETI1 : ?
ECooper : !
AFL MacDev: (I have your question in queue, Yeti)
ECooper, ga
XanaduDev : Gee, if we were using VMCO we'd see a show of hands.
ECooper : My associates and I had been considering developing
on the NeXT with it.
AFL MacDev: (Type 'yes' if you generally know what a Xanadu
Server is)
SteveFolta: yes
YETI1 : yes
AFL MacDev: yes
ECooper : Yes
AFC Zobkiw: yes
XanaduDev : Ok...
SAWYERS : no
Habberdude: no
AFC Donald: no
Orch : no
MakHak : no
TPokh Qul : no
AFL MacDev: ok, Bob, continue. ga
XanaduDev : XOC is developing an information server product that
will use hypertext technology to...
create new ways of sharing information over computer
networks. The Xanadu system is a
client/server architecture that segments its work
into two components: presenting information to...
end users (through the Frontend), and manipulating
and storing that information (thru the BackEnd).
XOC is developing the BackEnd portion, called the
Xanadu Server, ...
and we are working with 3rd parties to have a
comprehensive suite of Frontend applications ...
developed to take advantage of the Server. Let me
briefly describe the things which distinguish ...
the Xanadu Server from other applications of
hypertext technology. ...
Links. Links are of course a key component to any
hypertext system, and Xanadu's links are ...
uniquely powerful in 3 respects: Variable
granularity, omnidirectionality, and typing ...
Variable Granularity: links can attach to any portion
of a document; a byte, a bit, a paragraph,
even non-contiguous sections of a document.
Omni-directionality: this is key. Whereas most ...
HT systems use links to take you *forward* to further
references, Xanadu links can be traversed...
in any direction. HyperCard, for example, uses simple
links that do a GoTo another card (this is
an example of unidirection, coarse-grained linking).
Xanadu links, on the other hand, can
be used to ask "what other documents in the docuverse
refer to this thing that I am now reading?
Finally, link typing can be used to filter the kinds
of links you see in a document. For example,
there may be hundreds (thousands) of links that point
to a popular document, yet you may only be...
interested in some subset of these. Links can be
arbitrarily typed by users to provide a filter on...
what links are seen .For example, you could create a
link of type "Criticism", to designate that your
(I'll break for Q&A soon...)
link is critical of the piece linked to. Or you could
ask to see links from a certain author, etc.
Putting all of these features together enables you to
pose the following search request:
"Show me any link from a member of the Executive
staff that is critical of paragraph 3 of my report."
And there's more. Perhaps I can take some questions
at this point.
AFL MacDev: Can you give us an example of what types of 3rd party
front-ends could be built? That you want built? ga
XanaduDev : Well, we see Xanadu as a powerful enabling technology
for collaborative software in general, ...
so we're looking closely at things like collaborative
writing tools, ...
AFC Donald: ?
XanaduDev : and when I say that, I'm thinking of applications
that allow users to EASILY attach comments ...
YETI1 : How will Xanadu aid a "groupware" situation...seems
pretty single-user oriented (sorry I sound crabby)
XanaduDev : to portions of documents, and to promote the notion
of issue-processing across the net. ...
Xanadu promotes information sharing in a number of
ways:
There's no redundant data storage. When you enter a
document into Xanadu, it is stored and maintained.
ECooper : !
XanaduDev : such that anyone with access to the document can
extract portions of it without replicating any ...
of the underlying data. We use the notion of "virtual
documents" to allow users to construct. ..
documents from pieces of other documents. Currently,
when you copy a PICT from 1 document ...
into another, you wind up with 2 copies of the same
data. With Xanadu, you would only store 1 copy,
and all future "copies" would be virtual copies. The
effect is completely transparent to the end ...
YETI1 : I see... <--less crabby now!
XanaduDev : user, but the efficiency is greatly improved.
In this sense, documents are like "frames" that can
be attached in various ways around data.
One of the most interesting differences between our
system and other HT systems is that ...
we don't use a mutual exclusion principle to
arbitrate editing conflicts. Let me explain...
Any multi-user editing system must arbitrate editing
conflicts, where one user tries to edit a...
document that's currently being edited by someone
else. The usual approach locks out subsequent editor
until the first editor gives up the document. This
creates "lockout frustration. With Xanadu, ...
we use a "diverge/converge" model, that gives all
subsequent editors a virtual copy of the desired...
document, allowing them to immediately spin off
variants of the document in question, and then ...
we provide a powerful version compare facility that
allows editors to negoatiate the convergence of ..
their work later. Nobody gets locked out. ga
AFL MacDev: ECooper, your comment is up. ga
ECooper : What we saw was an opportunity to reduce time and
paper generation by our clients who are ...
subcontractors with the EPA. Their work must be
reviewed by many other subcontractors as well as...
the EPA themselves; and naturally edited by almost
every party. GA
XanaduDev : Ok...
ECooper : !
XanaduDev : Xanadu clearly provides a means for reducing paper
generation by making it much easier to exchange...
commentary on a given work in progress. Whether this
results in a net time savings is another ...
question. Email has had very profound effects on
business productivity, e.g. ga
AFL MacDev: ECooper, another comment. ga
ECooper : I would like to say that the NeXT would have been our
preferred choice but the EPA is not going to...
invest any time soon. Neither is our client, so we
must look to the favored platform and portability. GA
AFL MacDev: AFC Donald your question is up. ga
AFC Donald: my question was already answered -- ga
XanaduDev : ok...
AFL MacDev: For those of us who read Nelson's books, Xanadu
seemed somewhat "altruistic"...
How has this vision changed now that Autodesk is
financing XOC? ga
XanaduDev : Ted's vision of a world library accessible to anyone
with a computer is still being devleoped...
But it's really Ted's own project now, under the name
PAX (Public Access Xanadu). In order to ...
deliver his system, he will of course need the Xanadu
Server we are developing, so his ...
relationship to XOC is rather like any other 3rd
party developer. As for Autodesk, not many people...
realize that the company was founded by a group of
guys who didn't set out to get into the CAD market.
The company has a rich history of software
development and is now starting to diversify into ...
other market areas (witness their recent acquisition
of the Animator product). Their ...
purchase of XOC was a commitment to the technology
that we're developing for collaborative sw.
They see a BIG market opportunity obviously, but we
at XOC also see this as an opporunity to ...
fulfill the original vision for the product. ga
SteveFolta: ?
MakHak : !
VOORSANGER: ?
AFL MacDev: MakHak, your comment, ga
MakHak : My company is involved in interactive news broadcast
/ retrieval ...
We have chosen to use various platforms to access the
x.25 network...
and store the news and info in a local database
system not yet chosen ...
Can XOC help in dealing with randomly accessing the
info? ga
XanaduDev : Yes. The Xanadu Server deals with any kind of digital
data and can be used to ...
create a rich set of retrieval criteria for any given
data set. The neat thing that distinguishes...
a Xanadu search from a typical dbms search is that
you can use arbitrarily defined relationships to...
extract your data. Links are really an asertion that
a relationship exists between various data,
and with flexible link typing, you can create any
arbitrary search request with appropriate ...
relevancy filters to boot. In practice this works
better (and more intuitively) than Boolean searches
The trick, of course, is being able to do all of this
efficiently. Our breakthroughs come from ...
the 15 years of design work that went into the
product. The underlying data structures behind...
Xanadu are very proprietary and the thing that makes
it all possible. ga
AFL MacDev: Steve Folta, your question is up. ga
SteveFolta: I would like to know about the Xanadu Developer
Program. E.g. are ...
individual hackers working in their spare time going
to be able to
develop front ends, or is the XDC limited to
corporations with large resources ($ & time)? ga
XanaduDev : ok,
As Chris mentioned, I was manager of Macintosh
Software evangelism at Apple for two years, and one
thing I learned in that position was that the best
software comes from some of the smalled dev'ers ...
At XOC, I'm trying to give as many dev'ers access to
our system as possible, and that will include
a lot of sample source code, a BackEnd to work with,
lots of technical documentation and support,
and even a fullscale training program in our
Sausalito facilities. Some of this will cost $,
but I'm committed to creating programs that allow
small developers inexpensive access, perhaps thru
the notion of scholarships or the like. This was a
big issue at the time I left Apple, when the
cost of becoming an Apple Partner suddenly
skyrocketed. As you can see from that experience,
there are justifications for the costs. But we need
to have the flexibility to bring in those dev'ers.
who are the real backbone of this business, and most
of them don't live in Redmond. ga
AFL MacDev: yeah!
Voorsanger, your question is next. ga
VOORSANGER: Will all database retrieval within Xanadu be based
upon the Xanadu retrevial constructs?...
e.g. If I have a preconstructed medical knowledge
base...
will I have to rewrite it's retrieval structure to
utilize Xanadu? Go Ahead.
XanaduDev : ok,
It's a fairly trivial job to bring in pre-existing
document sets and create the links necessary for...
immediate use in the Xanadu environment. We're
betting that once people start using Xanadu, and
given the rapid build up of new information over
time, most Xanadu users will be creating their ...
documents from scratch in the Xanadu environment. We
don't really think of the job as information ...
retrieval -- for that, databases will probably always
be used as effectively. What we provide ..
is something that dbms can't, however, and that's the
arbitrary linking of unstructured information...
Most of the interesting data in the world is
unstructured. Tools like Xanadu will free people ...
from having to reorganize it into a structured format
suitable for dbms. ga
AFL MacDev: Bob, how can dev'ers get in touch with you? When? ga
XanaduDev : We're currently accepting applications for beta
testers of the Server. If you're interested,
contact Sue Shumacker at 415-856-4112. You can also
call me at extension x132, or reach me here....
When the beta program gets going in full swing, we
will be announcing several online support options. ga
AFL MacDev: I want to remind folks that we have a Groupware SIG
here in the forum...
VOORSANGER: ?
AFL MacDev: and Bob will be available to answer questions and
chat with you all.
Voorsanger, ga with your question. ga
VOORSANGER: Will Xanadu allow the monitoring of revisions to...
the retrieval structures? ga
XanaduDev : Hmmm. I'm not sure I understand your question, V.
ga
AFL MacDev: Voor, elaborate. ga
VOORSANGER: E.g. I have a knowledge base...
I like the way I've structured the retrieval...
But Dr. So and So doesn't...
Dr. So and So suggests that the really important...
relationships can be seen better with a different
approach to the retrieval...
Will Xanadu tract the revisions to the retrieval
systems we each suggest...
like it will with simple text bases? Whew.. ga
XanaduDev : Ahh. That's a classic example of how Xanadu can help.
Let me mention the version compare issue. ...
Most version tracking systems use one of two
approaches: either they save every version of a ...
document (this provides rapid retrieval but is
manifestly inefficient storage-wise), or they ...
save changes to a single version. This delta-storage
technique is much more effiecient at...
storage, but makes branching through versions
expensive, time consuming and decidedly un-fun. ...
Xanadu's use of virtual documents uses a completely
different approach. All versions of all documents
are equally retrievable, making it very easy and
cheap to store all changes to any document ...
The result is more freedom to experiment with
different linking strategies, or different ...
substantive content in general, confident of the
ability to quickly and easily revert. ga
AFL MacDev: Bob, what can WE tell you, or offer you that would
help you the most? ga
ECooper : !
XanaduDev : I'm anxious to hear what kinds of collaborative
application ideas people have. ga
AFL MacDev: ECooper, your comment, ga
ECooper : I would like to reiterate some of what Bob said in
terms of graphics archival. One of our main goals
is to be able to store various unrelated but similar
graphic images (in various versions)...
and pull them up at any time for proposal and
documentation projects. This makes for...
a super, VERY SMART 'scrapbook'. GA
AFL MacDev: Bob, care to elaborate? ga
XanaduDev : Right. When you have a powerful data engine driving
your multimedia data, the effects are stunning. ..
Xanadu supports ALL forms of data, btw; bit images,
vector drawings, sound clips, anything.
Linking sound as annotations to text is an exciting
new field of interest to us. ga
AFL MacDev: One of the things I'd like to see is a meeting
management system...
not a tool to eliminate meetings, but...
one that helps make meetings more efficient, and
reduce ...
the time taken up by redundant meetings.
ECooper : Agreed!
AFL MacDev: Bob, what about issue of cross-platform data? All
the types of data you describe...
XanaduDev : Yes. Redundancy will become redundant.
AFL MacDev: have machine specific versions. ga
XanaduDev : Well,all the Server knows is bytes (bits, actually),
and so native formats aren't important. ...
We will have versions of the Server running on
Macintosh, Sun, and PC-compatible workstations. ...
We are supporting FrontEnd development on all major
personal computers, although we think some of the
best applications will naturally emerge in the Mac
market first.
AFL MacDev: ;)
XanaduDev : Because of the way the Server stores data,
cross-platform issues will not be a problem. ga
AFL MacDev: Ok...
ECooper : !
AFL MacDev: Bob, I want to thank...
coming by tonight. One last chance for people to
make comments...
or ask questions, then we will wrap up.
ECooper, ga
ECooper : Gonna put the bite on Oracle, eh?
XanaduDev : Actually, we see ourselves as compilmentary to
traditional DBMSs and think that the ...
AndrewWelc: ?
XanaduDev : office of the future will have both a Xanadu system
and a DBMS. DBMS's will always be useful for ...
dealing with structured information and handling
requests such as "show me the sales in each of ...
the following regions, and sort them by salesman".
Xanadu will always be better at asking this kind of
Q: "Let me know if anyone has ever had anything
favorable to say about this idea".
Or "Show me everything critical that my boss has ever
had to say about this proposal.
and so on. ga
AFL MacDev: Andrew Welch, with the last question. ga
AndrewWelc: Can anyone take the time to give a (very) brief
overview of WHAT Xanadu is to a late-comer?? Thanx
AFL MacDev: Wow...
AndrewWelc: :) ga
AFL MacDev: I better put a hold on that question...
XanaduDev : :->
AFL MacDev: the first 20 minutes covered that one.
AFC Zobkiw: Andrew...the log will be available soon. :)
AndrewWelc: Ah well... I'll ask around (feeling stupid) ga
AFL MacDev: The log will be available...
and Bob will be around on th esystem for more
specific questions.
Ok, bob, you have any closing comments? ga
XanaduDev : Well let's see. I have this editor I'm using that
pops up even under modal dialogs...
I can go offline later with Andrew. ...anyway,
AndrewWelc: (FlashWrite??)
XanaduDev : (Right) ...
AndrewWelc: :)!
AFL MacDev: ;)
XanaduDev : I'm actively looking for developers who are
interested in leading the way into the next ...
generation of collaborative sw development. We are
currently working with many of the obvious ...
developers in this field, but I'm convinced that the
best software will emerge from the ...
smaller, independent developers. Please help prove me
right by contacting us and letting us help ...
you get up to speed on Xanadu. The marketing muscle
of Autodesk will soon be behind this product ...
in a BIG way. Lots of opportunity to get in early.
Thanks for having me here, Chris! ga
AFL MacDev: Well, you'll find some of those best developers here,
bob. Glad to have you online!
Ok, we officially close here...
ECooper : Thanks, Bob, for being here tonight. I hope we'll be
talking to you again soon. ...
XanaduDev : My pleasure, E.
AFC Zobkiw: ::: log is off :::consensus@cdp.UUCP (06/05/90)
Bob Perez's internet address is bobp@xanadu.com if you wish to direct mail to him regarding Xanadu's developer program -- Chris * Christopher Allen - Consensus Development * P.O. Box 2836, Union City, CA 94587-7836 * AT&T: (415) 487-9206 * America Online: AFL MacDev * AppleLink: D3516 * Internet: cdp!consensus@arisia.xerox.com * UUCP: uunet!pyramid!cdp!consensus