bsmith@mprvaxa.UUCP (Brian Smith) (03/26/84)
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I am probably going to catch sh*t for this, but I'm getting tired of
people making statements like "The microcomputer software industry is
losing billions of dollars a year due to software piracy." These
statements are usually based on the assumption that if N pirate copies of a
program are made, then that means a loss of N sales. This is simply not
true. Much of the piracy is by hobbyists with limited budgets. In many
cases, the hobbyist would not buy the pirated program in the first place.
So, while I am sure that sales are lost due to piracy, I am equally
sure that the amount is far less than some would have us believe.
What is my solution to the problem? Reduce the prices to the level
where the average user is willing to pay to get an original diskette,
instructions, and package. For games, I figure this to be about ten or
fifteen bucks. For other types of programs? Well, Turbo Pascal might be
a good example.
Protection schemes don't work. No matter how clever you are in
protecting your software, there is someone equally clever who will figure
out how to copy it.
Footnote: A friend of mine wrote and markets a spelling checker for
the TRS-80. He occasionally gets calls that go something like: "I've been
using your program and I think it's really great, so I'd like to buy a
copy."
Brian Smith (mprvaxa!bsmith)
Microtel Pacific Research
(The opinions expressed in this article are not necessarily those of any
real person, living or dead.)ken@ihuxq.UUCP (ken perlow) (03/27/84)
-- >>> ... I'm getting tired of >>> people making statements like "The microcomputer software industry is >>> losing billions of dollars a year due to software piracy." These >>> statements are usually based on the assumption that if N pirate copies >>> of a program are made, then that means a loss of N sales. This is >>> simply not true. I agree. Good software can stand the free advertising. Indeed, I know folks who have pirated software and liked it so much they bought their own copies. The rationale: "Let's keep a good company in business." Also, they were able to get updated versions, all documentation, and plenty of help from a phone call, things not available when you pirate programs. Writers of quality software should understand that one can steal their code but not their reputation. -- *** *** JE MAINTIENDRAI ***** ***** ****** ****** 27 Mar 84 [7 Germinal An CXCII] ken perlow ***** ***** (312)979-7261 ** ** ** ** ..ihnp4!ihuxq!ken *** ***
ignatz@ihuxx.UUCP (Dave Ihnat, Chicago, IL) (03/28/84)
This is a very sore point with me. I *will not* steal software--and Ghod knows of the temptations in this business, with wildly over-inflated prices and poor customer relations. But some people are starting to operate quite intelligently; here are some real-life, current examples: MicroSolutions, of DeKalb, IL markets a program called Uniform. It's a CP/M program to provide diskette formatting and interchange capabilities for a wide range of computers. Originally marketed at $49.95, the price was perfect; but it 'featured' an elaborate copy protection scheme that rendered the master copy good ONLY for making two (count 'em--2) copies of the program. These diskettes could not be copied, and the master couldn't be executed. If those disks ever went bad, you had to send in the master to be re-genned, for a $10.00 fee. This led to two things--first, my losing a night of sleep to figure out their scheme (I did), and secondly, scads of complaints to MicroSolutions. In an amazing burst of reason, they re-issued an improved version of the program, without the obnoxious copy protection. (Unfortunately, shortly after the re-release the price climbed to $69.95, but it's still just within the reach of a reasonable price.) J. G. Communications, of Tucson, AZ markets a hardware real-time clock for the Osborne 1; along with the hardware is a decent set of utility programs. They will sell the source to these programs--on a floppy, with documentation--for $12.00; the object comes free with the clock. Rationale? As the author told me, "They can have the source. I'll have something better out before they can." Makes bug fixes and reports much easier. I'm afraid I'll have to withhold the name of the company, and the product, for this last one; I haven't asked the person involved if they want full details popularly known on this deal. But suffice to say that the author of a quite popular 'C' compiler, who is a friend of mine, discovered that I am doing some work on a Zenith Z-100, but the people who bought the machine aren't going to shell out the $300-$400 such a compiler costs. He *gave* me a current copy of his system, with only the constraint that I not further distribute it. Purpose? He wants me to work with it, get to know it, and recommend it. (I just don't know if he wants people to know about the freebie.) If this product ran on my z80-based machine, you'd better damn well believe *I'd* shell out the cash, after working with it; and at least one client has ordered the system, because of my recommendation. Purpose of this (much longer than I intended) article? To show that all is not darkness on the software market, and, frankly, to spread the name of those companies that are making some effort to work with consumers, instead of against them. Dave Ihnat ihuxx!ignatz
andrew@orca.UUCP (Andrew Klossner) (03/30/84)
I'd like to demonstrate how some recent comments defending software
piracy can be applied to another industry.
"I'm getting tired of people making statements like "The
microcomputer software industry is losing billions of dollars a
year due to software piracy." These statements are usually
based on the assumption that if N pirate copies of a program
are made, then that means a loss of N sales. This is simply
not true. Much of the piracy is by hobbyists with limited
budgets. In many cases, the hobbyist would not buy the pirated
program in the first place."
Ditto for automobile theft, where people assume that N car thefts imply
a loss of N car sales. Also not true. Much car theft is by hobbyists
with limited budgets. In many cases, the hobbyist would not buy the
stolen car in the first place.
"So, while I am sure that sales are lost due to piracy, I am
equally sure that the amount is far less than some would have
us believe."
And no doubt some car sales are lost due to theft, but I'm quite sure
that the amount is far less than some would have us believe.
"What is my solution to the problem? Reduce the prices to the
level where the average user is willing to pay to get an
original diskette, instructions, and package. For games, I
figure this to be about ten or fifteen bucks. For other types
of programs? Well, Turbo Pascal might be a good example."
And I think the solution to the car theft problem is to reduce car
prices to the level where the average driver is willing to pay to get a
new car and owner's manual. For Hondas, I figure this to be about four
hundred dollars. For other types of cars? Well, Army surplus jeeps
might be a good example.
"Protection schemes don't work. No matter how clever you are
in protecting your software, there is someone equally clever
who will figure out how to copy it."
Auto ripoff protection schemes don't work. No matter how clever you
are in locking and anti-burglarizing your car, there is someone equally
clever who will figure out how to steal it.
---------------
My point is that it is a fallacy to claim that software piracy is
somehow okay because the evil software vendors overcharge or the poor
hobbyists can't afford to buy all the wonderful software. These issues
are not relevant to the question of right or wrong.
Using someone's software without permission is stealing. A person who
does this is a thief. It's as simple as that.
-- Andrew Klossner (decvax!tektronix!orca!andrew) [UUCP]
(orca!andrew.tektronix@rand-relay) [ARPA]els@pur-phy.UUCP (Eric Strobel) (03/31/84)
I really wish people would admit/signify that certain thoughts
about this issue are a matter of their personal ethics. To some,
piracy = theft. If you feel that way fine, but that doesn't make
it true! PERSONALLY, I equate this issue with that of the people
who have been sued for building antennas and converters for HBO
transmissions. If a transmission is available for me to pick up,
then I'll pick it up when ever I damn well please. If HBO doesn't
like it then they should encode their transmission in a manner that
makes it somehow easier for me to rent the equipment from them, than
it is for me to do it myself. Similarly, software houses should
put something into the program to make it difficult to copy. If I
would have to spend weeks trying to hack out a copy of some program,
I'll probably just say the hell with it and go out and buy it.
To put in plainer terms, if there has been no effort made
to protect the software, then making a copy is just like picking
up a $20 bill off of the street; i.e. the former owner was careless
with it, so tough!
The big exception, of course, is with licenced software. By
copying this stuff, you help your friend to break a formal contract.
On top of the legality problems, the person who loaned you the
software has proven that his word is worthless! 'nuff said.
All I can say about the small one-person software producers, is
that they can use their modems and band together.
P.S. I fully expect flames about this, but I'd rather hear
(and might even enjoy) some thoughtful criticism.
(Hopefully, the above line will douse most of those who
type without thinking.)
(`') (`')
\\ _____ // Writing cause I got work, hanging by
\\ / \ // my bruised ,bleeding and mangled thumbs
\/ O O \/ at the off-the-wall teddy bear keyboard of
| o |
\_____/ ERIC STROBEL
/|+++|\
//-----\\ decvax!pur-ee!Physics:els
// \\
(_^_) (_^_)
alan@allegra.UUCP (Alan S. Driscoll) (04/01/84)
[] ... If a transmission is available for me to pick up, then I'll pick it up when ever I damn well please. If HBO doesn't like it then they should encode their transmission in a manner that makes it somehow easier for me to rent the equipment from them, than it is for me to do it myself... ... if there has been no effort made to protect the software, then making a copy is just like picking up a $20 bill off of the street; i.e. the former owner was careless with it, so tough... Hmm... I pay for HBO, and the last time I found a bill on the ground, I found out who it belonged to and returned it. Maybe Eric will think I'm a bit strange, but that's ok, because I think he's a putz. ... certain thoughts about this issue are a matter of their personal ethics... Personal ethics? What the hell does this guy know about personal ethics? -- Alan S. Driscoll AT&T Bell Laboratories
faustus@ucbvax.UUCP (Wayne Christopher) (04/01/84)
Andrew Klossner's argument that stealing cars is like stealing software would be quite correct if you could stick your car into your garage, press a button, and make a duplicate car, and in fact a lot of people did favors for their friends by making them cars like this. If this happened I would say that the automobile industry was in a lot of trouble. Nobody would think of making it illegal to do this, though (except those who believe in things like farm price supports). Clearly when a software product comes out, a certain number of people are going to buy the thing, and then a certain number of additional people are going to get copies from them. Software companies should expect this and market their products accordingly. For the government to support those who cannot write good software and would not survive without the "protection" of the copywrite laws is like paying farmers to destroy their crops to keep food prices high... Wayne Christopher
canas@ut-sally.UUCP (Daniel Canas) (04/02/84)
a
Has anyone have to wait 2 or 3 (or more weeks) because your legitimate copy
of XXXX did not boot and you did not have a backup copy because it was
protected?
When this does happen to you then you will consider "illegal" backups
legal.
--
Daniel Canas, Computer Sciences Dept. University of Texas at Austin,
{ihnp4,kpno,ut-ngp}!ut-sally!canasmmr@utmbvax.UUCP (Mike Rubenstein) (04/02/84)
> Has anyone have to wait 2 or 3 (or more weeks) because your legitimate copy > of XXXX did not boot and you did not have a backup copy because it was > protected? > When this does happen to you then you will consider "illegal" backups > legal. No, I've never had that problem because I refuse to purchase any copy protected software. I don't think many of those who've been flaming about stealing software consider backups illegal, no matter what the licensing agreement. I'd consider that fair use. It's unfortunate that publishers feel they have to resort to copy protection schemes to protect themselves. To my mind, that makes the software worthless. Well, maybe they're just being shrewd. Making something worthless should reduce theft quite a bit. -- Mike Rubenstein, OACB, UT Medical Branch, Galveston TX 77550
alan@allegra.UUCP (Alan S. Driscoll) (04/02/84)
Mike won't buy software that's copy protected, because it isn't worth the
hassle. Eric won't buy software that isn't copy protected -- he'll steal
it ("like finding a $20 bill on the ground"). This all leaves the people
selling the software caught between a rock and a hard place...
--
Alan S. Driscoll
AT&T Bell Laboratoriessleat@aat.UUCP (04/03/84)
Andrew Klossner posts an analogy between stealing software and stealing
a car. All analogies have their fallacies, but this analogy is particularly
bad. It would perhaps have been better (if more abstract) had he phrased
it in terms of making an instantaneous copy of the car, rather than removing
the physical object itself.
With his analogy he obscures the central dilemma of the issue, namely that
there is a fundamental difference between stealing a physical object and
stealing information. Whereas it is his right to equate the two on a moral
level, attempting to equate the two on the physical level helps neither his
case nor any resolution of the social issue.
Were the situation as simple as he indicates, this discussion would not
be taking place. It is certainly his perogative to issue his own moral
admonishments, but I find it offensive to have such admonishments couched
in terms of faulty reasoning.
Michael Sleator
Ann Arbor Terminals
{mb2c|cbosgd|uofm-cv|psu-cs}!aat!sleatmarc@aat.UUCP (04/04/84)
Speaking of ethics, trust, maturity, etc., I was very impressed last time I was in Windsor to see newspaper racks on the street where the papers were on an open stand with an attached coin box. You know, "honor system".... Think you'd ever see this in the U.S.?
rpw3@fortune.UUCP (04/05/84)
#R:mprvaxa:-50400:fortune:3500015:000:1078
fortune!rpw3 Apr 4 23:11:00 1984
Protecting software from being used on machines other than those for which
it is licensed (which is what the software writers want) is NOT incompatible
with being able/allowed to make a jillion backup copies in case your master
disk gets trashed (which is what users want).
At least one company (*cough* *cough*) has a scheme that lets you make copies
and store them ANYWHERE, even on another machine, but they will only execute
on the single machine on which they were originally installed. In fact, the
installation instructions URGE you to make a copy, for safety (since there
is a small window of time between installation and the making of the copy
during which you could lose the software if you didn't have a backup and you
ran over the original with a truck or something).
Of course, it does require that each machine be at least a little bit
unique, but that's a "small matter of hardware".
Rob Warnock
UUCP: {ihnp4,ucbvax!amd70,hpda,harpo,sri-unix,allegra}!fortune!rpw3
DDD: (415)595-8444
USPS: Fortune Systems Corp, 101 Twin Dolphin Drive, Redwood City, CA 94065kjo@aluxz.UUCP (O'CONNOR) (04/05/84)
x
This seems to suggest a "sole source" environment for the user, and
includes hardware, software, operating systems, and applications from
the OEM or single authorized distributor.
Though for some this is quite alright, many would agree that this type
of arrangement will not and in fact does not promote competitive
products and reasonable prices in the personal computer class of
equipment.
Cottage industries cannot grow due to the restricted access to the
hard and soft system environment. This factor was crucial to the Apple
and IBM PC market, devistated the TI 99/4a, and is currently hamstringing
the DEC Rainbow and TI Professional.
Please no flames, its just my observations of the real world facts.
--
________________
| __________ | from the green screens
| | hello! | | of
| | | |
| | | | Kevin O'Connor
| | _________ | AT&T Bell Labs
| | |byebye!| | Allentown, Pa
| | | | | __ (215) 770-3546
| --| | |/ \_____
| --------- | _ _ \_
| | <.v.> |
|__________Blit| |_~_| |
---------------- . \___/
. . . . . . .
. . . . . . . . .
. . . . . . . .sleat@aat.UUCP (04/05/84)
Wayne Christopher says in regard to duplicating cars, "Nobody would think
of making it illegal to do this". I beg to differ.
There is first of all the question of patents. If one refrained from
selling the duplicates, perhaps one would not be in violation of the
laws regarding patented components of the car. I don't know very much
about patent law, so I cannot speak to this point byond simply raising
it.
More to the point though, is the matter of copyright. I haven't heard of
any car manufacturers copyrighting body designs, etc, but I see no reason
why such protection shouldn't be extended to them. I believe I've seen
copyright protection applied in much more absurd cases than this.
Michael Sleator
Ann Arbor Terminals
{cbosgd|mb2c|uofm-cv|psu-cs}!aat!sleattrb@masscomp.UUCP (04/05/84)
aat!marc notes: Speaking of ethics, trust, maturity, etc., I was very impressed last time I was in Windsor to see newspaper racks on the street where the papers were on an open stand with an attached coin box. You know, "honor system".... Think you'd ever see this in the U.S.? The Chase Farms cider mill in Littleton, MA (right next to the Masscomp building we were in until last November, when we moved a mile down the road to Westford) has an unattended refrigerator with fresh cider in it, a price list, a locked wooden box for putting your paper money in, and an adequate supply of loose change sitting in a tray. You takes your cider, you pays your money. Right here in the U.S. Right now. Andy Tannenbaum Masscomp Inc Westford MA (617) 692-6200 x274
kalm@ihuxw.UUCP (James ) (04/05/84)
> Speaking of ethics, trust, maturity, etc., I was very impressed last time > I was in Windsor to see newspaper racks on the street where the papers > were on an open stand with an attached coin box. You know, "honor system".... > Think you'd ever see this in the U.S.? We USED to!!! -- Jim Kalmadge - AT&T Bell Labs IX 1c415 8-367-0475 (312) 979-0475 ihuxw!kalm
rehmi@umcp-cs.UUCP (04/06/84)
> mprvaxa!bsmith: > > Apple is fighting clone machines on every side while no-one is cloning > Commodore 64's. The main reason for this is the Apple is priced much > higher than it has any right to be. (The development costs were probably > paid for by the first ten sales; the garage was paid for by the next ten) Actually, the development costs were paid by HP... Wozniak designed the thing for them and they didn't like it. The garage might have already been paid for; who knows what financial state he was in? -- Uucp: ..!seismo!umcp-cs!rehmi By the fork, spoon, and exec CsNet: rehmi.umcp-cs@csnet-relay of Khron, Kernel ContreMain, ArpaNet: rehmi@maryland Earl of Tetravale & Tumbolia.
jr@fortune.UUCP (John A. Rogers) (04/07/84)
Re: backups vs. protected software
On some systems (e.g. the various Fortune UNIX-based systems), it is possible
to have protected software that can be backed up. Unfortunately, it requires
that the original (and the copies) can somehow be "serialized" to a given
machine, maybe via a serial number in a ROM of some sort. I realize that this
isn't applicable to all systems, but it is a possibility.
Didn't I hear something (a year ago?) about one or more chip manafacturers
offering CPU chips that had serial numbers in them? (SEEQ is probably
working on something along those lines, I would guess).
See ya!
--
JR (John Rogers)
UUCP: {ihnp4,cbosgd,ucbvax!amd70}fortune!jrbarryg@sdcrdcf.UUCP (Barry Gold) (04/07/84)
I've got a Fortune 32:16 (and love it), and so far almost all the software
we've got installed/copied fine, but....
Bought VTE (from P2/i) and the first disk we got wouldn't install. It
claimed it had another machine's serial number written in. Had to send it
back and get a (virgin?) disk in exchange.
And then there's this horror story I heard from a friend, about a mainframe
(or was it a mini?) that used the same sort of protection technique. Part
of the hardwawre broke/wore out and had to be replaced,...and suddenly NONE
of the software worked any more, not even the operating system, and cold
boot didn't work either. Because the machine now had a different serial
number.
-Lee Gold
--
Barry Gold
usenet: {decvax!allegra|ihnp4}!sdcrdcf!ucla-s!lcc!barry
Arpanet: barry@BNLrichard@sequent.UUCP (04/07/84)
I'd love to be able to "back up" my car, even if the purpose wasn't for sales. You know, just in case the first one "crashed" or developed format problems. Right. ___________________________________________________________________________ from the confused and bleeding fingertips of ...!sequent!richard
ron@brl-vgr.ARPA (Ron Natalie <ron>) (04/09/84)
It's easy to back up your car. Just move the lever to the "R" position. -Ron
ignatz@ihuxx.UUCP (Dave Ihnat, Chicago, IL) (04/11/84)
Without going too much into it, please read the latest issue of Mini-Micro systems for a fascinating--and disturbing--new product that is being marketed as a software protection scheme. Basically, there is a physical "fingerprint" actually embedded on the surface of a floppy diskette, at a random track/sector location. The protected software knows about it, and can (somehow--not explained in the article) access it. Thus, if the software is on a different disk or diskette, no go. Problems? On a hard-disk system, the device must be in the floppy drive. Also, backups aren't--you can't copy the "fingerprint", so the program on the backup disk won't run without the original. The manufacturer maintains that, since you aren't permitted to write the sector/track that the fingerprint resides on, it can't go bad (?), and the backup is adequate; but they admit that they expect to end up in court. (I don't mind the protection, but if the backup depends on the integrity of the original disk, I don't trust it.) As for the diskette always having to be in the boot drive, they say they're figuring out a way to stamp hard disks. (How about multiple proprietary, protected programs? They don't address it.) AT&T is supposed to have purchased rights to use this scheme, according to the article. If people want details--the vol. and issue numbers of the Mini-Micro Systems copy, company names, etc--I'll get them. (I'm at work, the 'zine is at home). Just ask. Dave Ihnat ihuxx!ignatz
azia@utzoo.UUCP (Anton J Aylward A/S) (05/03/84)
The Honour system seems to reflect local cultural varaitions, and history. In England I grew used to seeing newspapars on sale with an OPEN money-box. I see them here in Canada, too, but not in the big cities. There does seem to be 'Honour system' for SOME software. Some companies will send you a demo-disk. There is another level to the piracy issue: the cost. Suppose you are a university professor writing a textbook on your subject. You have invested somthing like 10 years in getting to know the subject, another X years on the text and so on. You have cross-referenced with articles and papers. If you screw-up, make ridiculous assertions, or mangle a reference you get laughed at and you book fails to become a standard reference. (Unless you take a very Fun-damn-mentalist approach and are willing to settle for it only being sold in Texas :-)) How much will the book sell for ? Between $30 and $90 probably. What are the production costs ? A friend in the industry tells me this can vary from about 10% to about 30% of retail for textbooks. Distributor mark-up is around 30-40%. Marketing costs are lower than "popular" books. So what does a software package that takes about the same effort to produce cost ? Anywhere from $100 to $1400. How well researched is it ? How well cross-referenced ? Would you stake your professional reputation for the rest of your life on the XYZ compiler or word-processor you wrote for the PC ? Judge by the textbooks you see and the programmes you use. I am very against piracy. I work for an information supplier and distributor; software and support text is my livelyhood. However, I think the marketplace is VERY unbalanced, and until people as individuals feel that the software they buy is worth ten times that of another product with higher costs, there will be piracy. In the mean time, I am glad of UNIX(tm) and the network, and that I have an employer who supplies these things. /anton aylward
brennan@iuvax.UUCP (05/18/84)
[nothing] Does anyone still care about this subject (software piracy)? Here's my analogy: I can't afford a two record set of blah. Neither can my friend. We decide to both pay half. I get to tape it and he gets the disk. We are dealing directly with the problem that the price is beyond reach. We are actually helping the manufacturer since neither of us could afford it alone. JD Brennan ...!ihnp4!inuxc!iuvax!brennan (USENET) Brennan@Indiana (CSNET) Brennan.Indiana@CSnet-Relay (ARPA)