steve@CAS.ORST.EDU (Steve Dodd) (03/01/90)
>From: abbas@sunb4.cs.uiuc.edu >You really know how to find those keywords which create the difference >between the both sect of Muslims, I guess next you will open the subject >of marriage difference, right? Are there marriage differences too? Well maybe next week we can look at that. >Taq'ia definition is: to claim that you are not from a certain sect or > religion, or deny something to protect yourself > against certainc unsjustice or racism. >The word usually get connect with Shi'a since after the death of the prophet, >some people of Sunna sect claimed that Shi'a were not muslims and they should >be executed. So the Shi'a to avoid been executed (like what happen to Imam >Hussein, the son of the Prophet coursin Imam Ali, because he disagreed with >a leader of the Sunna sect), claimed that they were not Shi'a or even muslim. >The Sunna sect does not agree with Shi'a, and considered haram. If it wasn't >for Taq'ia the sect of Shi'a may have completely executed. >PS: In the above note, I am only talking about some people of the Sunna sect. > It should not be considered an attack on the Sunna sect in general. Many > Sunna did not agree with what going on in that period of time. Assalam Alaykum, Perhaps I'd better expalin some things to you about my questions of those who call themselves Shia. When I first began to study Islam in 1976 there was very little English material available. I was at UBC in Vancouver and there I discovered dozens of books on the shia and sufis. There was no Qur'an. I drove up and down the freeway for months looking for more literature before discovering a Qur'an and Riyad As-Saliheen at the Vancouver public library. Till then most of my reading about Islam was related to shia imams, taqiyya and all that. However, when I started reading the Qur'an I could find no refrence to any of it. I would therefore challenge your assertion that I was looking for differences between Muslims. I worked very hard for many years to learn anything at all. I have certainly endured a lot of difficulty over the shia without even being able to figure out what they want. All of this discussion now only provides a forum for me to examine some of the oldest questions I have about Islam. Later the revolution in Iran began and I got a book from a retail store by Khomeini. I read this several times without being able to figure out what he was talking about in regard to the religion. The politics and his intrest in humanitarian concerns for his people was all I could make out of it. All this stuff left me very confused and troubled for several years. Later I read some literature identifying taqiyya as a tennant of shia belief. Bluntly put it is permissible or even required for a shia muslim to outright lie about his beliefs in order to mislead people. Do you wonder that I became confused? Lots of other new Muslims are confused as well. How am I to reconcile this with the Islam I find in the Qur'an? In addition I have been personally accosted at our local Islamic Center by pamphlet pushing shia who are actively trying to cause problems with any one who'll listen to them. Why should I care about their strange beliefs when Islam is so clearly outlined in the Qur'an and sunna? Lately I have been reading a book called the Muslim Scolars Fatwa Concerning Khomeini. It outlines the reasons the shia are not well recieved by most muslim scholars. The Shia attribute titles to their leaders which exceed the limits of Islamic thinking. These leaders claim for themselves special powers. When I ask some shia here about this they practice taqiyya, or shall I say they just lie about it. Later others of them admit this. There are no sects in Islam. There never was and never will be. Islam is something you do not something you are. Anyone identifying with a sect will be led out of Islam by Allah. There isn't even a sunni sect ... there are no sects at all! Some wish to say that we accept the Qur'an and the hadith while others argue that they accept the Quran but not the hadith. Explain to me how they accept one and not the other when any supposedly badly motivated changes would have come through the same people. I think that anyone who wants to play upon this base, and also cites sects, is looking for an exit from the clear truth. Certainly none of the tennants of Islam would allow for a leader above the prophets or angels. Perhaps some one is practicing taqiyya here? What do you think about the claims made for the shia imams? The issue doesn't end with the shia beliefs either. In many ways these beliefs are no different that those of others who claim to believe in God and the Qur'an but reject the rest of Islam. They are confused about the nature of Islam as well. I can tell you right now I don't accept a word of it or any discussion of sects. Those that wish to analyse sects should get back into Islam! The word Islam is the copyright of Allah for His religion. He never intended for people to play around about versions like it was some kind of software. There is one version only ... those who feel the need to separate and protect themselves by lying are in error. If they are only trying to protect themselves then why do I feel so much safer far away from them? I think that taqiyya is much more frequently used as an offensive tool against Islam than as a defnese supposed bad people. Omar
naim@eecs.nwu.edu (Naim Abdullah) (03/01/90)
Omar Dodd in replying to an article by Abbas explaining "Taq'ia" says: >There are no sects in Islam. There never was and never will be. Islam >is something you do not something you are. Anyone identifying with a >sect will be led out of Islam by Allah. There isn't even a sunni >sect ... there are no sects at all! So why do you keep harping on shias ? Why not just accept that you and I are not competent to judge anybody ? Leave judgements to Allah. People who believe in Allah and the Quran are muslims and they are our brothers and sisters in Islam (regardless of whether they identify themselves as shias or sunnis). > Bluntly put it is permissible or even required for >a shia muslim to outright lie about his beliefs in order to mislead >people. >[...] > Do you wonder that I became confused? Lots of other new Muslims >are confused as well. How am I to reconcile this with the Islam I >find in the Qur'an? This is quite different from what Abbas has explained. If you are starving, it is permissible to eat pork to save your life. If somebody is standing with a knife at your throat, it is permissible to lie to save your life. If somebody will kill you unless you profess to be a sunni, I think lying is quite permissible under that situation. If you refuse to accept Abbas's explanation and claim that *he* is practicing "Taq'ia" then your claim about not being divisive is pretty hollow. > In addition I have been personally accosted at >our local Islamic Center by pamphlet pushing shia who are actively >trying to cause problems with any one who'll listen to them. Why >should I care about their strange beliefs when Islam is so clearly >outlined in the Qur'an and sunna? Why do you insist on identifying them as "shia" ? Why not just say that you have been accosted by rude people who are trying to push their believes upon you ? Identifying them as shia means that you are associating the shia beliefs with this kind of rude behaviour. Associating a large bunch of muslims with this kind of behaviour is certainly divisive. I know numerous shia muslims. None of them have ever tried to push their beliefs upon me. Please understand that it takes all kinds of people. >The Shia attribute titles to >their leaders which exceed the limits of Islamic thinking. These >leaders claim for themselves special powers. When I ask some >shia here about this they practice taqiyya, or shall I say they >just lie about it. Later others of them admit this. ^^^^^^ Maybe the shia sect is not monolithic on this issue. Maybe they have different opinions about this issue. Why do you insist on interpeting this lack of a quorum as evidence of deception ? >[ claims about shia beliefs ] >I can tell you right now I don't accept a word of it or any discussion >of sects. Those that wish to analyse sects should get back into Islam! ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ This is interesting, given that your whole article was an analysis (however poor) of the shia sect. Why not just accept them as your brothers and sisters in Islam and leave a judgement on their beliefs to Allah ? Who appointed you as judge upon the appropriateness of the beliefs of muslims ? You and I have enough of our own sins to worry about. Why this eagerness to judge your fellow muslims ? People are unique. Every muslim has a slightly different set of beliefs and opinions. Why do you have this urge to stand in judgement of other people's beliefs ? >The word Islam is the copyright of Allah for His religion. He never >intended for people to play around about versions like it was some kind >of software. You have no proof that YOUR version of Islam is the one Allah intended. All you have is your opinion. You are certainly entitled to that. But please respect other muslims' rights to have their own view of Islam which might be different than yours. >If they are only trying to protect themselves then why do I feel so much >safer far away from them? Perhaps because your views and your expression of those views, are quite offensive and divisive. It is not surprising that you feel unsafe around the people whom you offend so gravely. >I think that taqiyya is much more frequently used as >an offensive tool against Islam than as a defnese supposed bad people. First, please provide some evidence for this claim. Second, according to Abbas's explanation, taqia is to be used in life threatening situation to save your life. People who practice deception as "an offensive tool against Islam" are just LYING. And you should refer to it as such. It would not qualify as "taqia". It is unfortunate that soc.religion.islam is having this discussion. It is a low point of this newsgroup. Naim
naim@eecs.nwu.edu (Naim Abdullah) (03/01/90)
Omar had written: Omar>The Shia attribute titles to Omar>their leaders which exceed the limits of Islamic thinking. These Omar>leaders claim for themselves special powers. When I ask some Omar>shia here about this they practice taqiyya, or shall I say they Omar>just lie about it. Later others of them admit this. I had replied: >Maybe the shia sect is not monolithic on this issue. Maybe they have >different opinions about this issue. Why do you insist on interpeting >this lack of a quorum as evidence of deception ? Instead of "quorum", I meant to say "consensus". This is what comes of posting at 5am in the morning :-). Naim
steve@CAS.ORST.EDU (Steve Dodd) (03/02/90)
Naim writes: >So why do you keep harping on shias ? Why not just accept that you and I >are not competent to judge anybody ? Leave judgements to Allah. People >who believe in Allah and the Quran are muslims and they are our brothers and >sisters in Islam (regardless of whether they identify themselves as shias >or sunnis). Beacuse as a new Muslim I know nothing about Islam. Beacuse I have seen blood shed over it. In front of my own eyes. I have been asked to fight over things I don't understand! If it embarrases you tough! >If you are starving, it is permissible to eat pork to save your life. No one here seems to be starving. However, there are Muslims all over the world who are and still don't easily give in to shaytan. >If you refuse to accept Abbas's explanation and claim that *he* is >practicing "Taq'ia" then your claim about not being divisive >is pretty hollow. I am certainly not trying to be divisive. If you can't figure out among yourselves what what you are doing why do you blame me for that. This is all just arguing from people who have forgotten to make Islam. >> In addition I have been personally accosted at >>our local Islamic Center by pamphlet pushing shia who are actively >>trying to cause problems with any one who'll listen to them. Why >>should I care about their strange beliefs when Islam is so clearly >>outlined in the Qur'an and sunna? >Why do you insist on identifying them as "shia" ? Why not just say >that you have been accosted by rude people who are trying to push So they called themselves. The were pushing pamphlets by Khomeini before during and after juma' prayer. They started fights and when some of us tried to understand them they told us lies. >Please understand that it takes all kinds of people. I have stuck up for them on numerous occasions just to have them turn on me when they had trouble with other brothers. How is it possible that one American guy caused all this division 1000 years after it all started? I don't want to hear any more talk about how it takes all kinds of people. I have all kinds of people all around me. I want to hear about Islam! If you want Islam you'd feel the same. >>their leaders which exceed the limits of Islamic thinking. These >>leaders claim for themselves special powers. When I ask some >>shia here about this they practice taqiyya, or shall I say they >>just lie about it. Later others of them admit this. >> ^^^^^^ >Maybe the shia sect is not monolithic on this issue. Maybe they have >different opinions about this issue. Why do you insist on interpeting >this lack of a quorum as evidence of deception ? Beacuse I have been decieved by it. Now I want the whole truth. How am I to know this unless I investigate it. If you say there are sects in Islam and that they all oppose my calling for the Islam of the Qur'an and Hadith then you certainly know more than I. But it seems to me, in my amaturish way that there is a BIG BIG BIG problem in Islam as practiced by many Muslims today. It can't be my fault just because I discovered it. It is no wonder to me that I see deception as lying ... even most of the kufar have a value for telling the truth. Millions of old world muslims have died over this ... is that my fault because I call for the sunna? No, I think it is those muslims fault! >>of sects. Those that wish to analyse sects should get back into Islam! ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ >This is interesting, given that your whole article was an analysis >(however poor) of the shia sect. Why not just accept them as your >brothers and sisters in Islam and leave judgement of their beliefs to Allah ? I think I did pretty well to discover a religious sect, aside from Islam, that deceives people about religion for the purpose of protecting itself. Such information is a revelation to me after many years. I don't judge anyone here ... I have been asking questions and growing in understanding. Is that not allowed? >Who appointed you judge upon the appropriateness of the beliefs of muslims ? If the shoe fits wear it. I am not trying to judge anything but beliefs. I am not trying to lead anyone, but rather to not be mislead. I have fallen into trouble over this before with Christians, Muslims and who knows who else. Islam seems very clear to me. Even the kufar seem to understand it better than some muslims trying to evade it. >and opinions. Why do you have this urge to stand in judgement of other >people's beliefs ? Because most people ... me included fail to believe correctly and that once you quit testing this in yourself and others you'll quickly end up on your knees in front of some idol. I.E. money, government etc. >>The word Islam is the copyright of Allah for His religion. He never >>intended for people to play around about versions like it was some kind >>of software. >You have no proof that YOUR version of Islam is the one Allah intended. >All you have is your opinion. You are certainly entitled to that. But >please respect other muslims' rights to have their own view of Islam >which might be different than yours. I have no plans to do anything about anyones views ... like most raised in the West I only speak for myself. While I have no proof that my ideas are correct I do believe that Allah only intended one version. Others may discuss anything they like and still be Muslims but when they ascribe other names to themselves they confuse their own deen. The religon belongs to Allah and no one can claim otherwise to me. >Second, according to Abbas's explanation, taqia is to be used in life >threatening situation to save your life. People who practice deception as "an >offensive tool against Islam" are just LYING. And you should refer to it as >such. It would not qualify as "taqia". Exactly my point! Do bear in mind I couldn't get anyone to talk to me about taqiyya in all the time I've been interested. The fact that you are aware of it and have devloped a sense of it is a privilage you have on me. I really see no point in studying a term which is apart from Islam. So I find the knowledge of how to use it useless. I know those calling for it are outside the Islam I understand! >It is unfortunate that soc.religion.islam is having this discussion. It is >a low point of this newsgroup. It is unfortunant that all of the smart Muslims only respond to difficult questons by attacking the Muslim who asked. Perhaps that's why I don't believe much of your argument. It seems to be justifying a wrong instead of clarifying it. This news group has been in a low point since it started being a forum for the moderators to attack the readers. Omar