gwydion@tavi.rice.edu (Basalat Ali Raja) (03/14/90)
In article <18849@megaron.cs.arizona.edu> bakken@megaron.cs.arizona.edu (Dave Bakken) writes: >I do not think the Bible is limiting the one God to three of anything - >it may well be due to man's (relatively) severe limitations that He >chose to explain Himself to man in this way. And my examples were >meant to show that some things have multiple attributes/whatever, >not to be a complete analogy for the infinite God. I agree that God can have multiple attributes. I agree that God can even present Himself in human form (as far as my limited understanding goes). I even agree that it is possible for God to have a son. That all, however, does not mean that God DID present Himself in human form. It does not mean that God DOES have a son. The Quran tells us that it is beneath the dignity of God to have a son. The Christians believe otherwise. [8:35] It beseems not Allah that He should take to Himself a son, glory to be Him; when He has decreed a matter He only says to it "Be", and it is. (warning: your translation might have a different number; if you cannot find it, look for this Ayat AROUND 35 or so. I am using the Shakir translation). The Quran says that Jesus - the person who walked in Judea 2000 years ago, was a mortal human being. Nothing more. He was a created being just like the rest of us. In the Bible, people are referred to as the sons of God all the time, just as Jesus. However, by the Christians, all of these references are interpreted as being metaphorical, except for the references to Jesus. >I did not say the Muslims did not understand the Trinity. I said *I* did >not understand the theological or practical problems they had with the >doctrine. And I hoped to learn some about this, and I certainly have! I believe the Muslim attitude is that the Trinity is a hyped up mystery. It is an attempt to still stay within the monotheistic framework and yet give divine attributes to Jesus. There are two types of things which we come across in the matter of human thought. One type is a mystery. This occurs when we do not have enough information about what we are trying to discuss and nothing more can be said about the matter, simply because we do not understand enough. The other type is a contradiction. Nothing more can be said about the matter because one of the premises is false. I believe that the trinity is better referred to as a contradiction, not a mystery. There are three members of the trinity - The Father, the son, and the holy ghost. The holy ghost is the angel Gabriel that spoke to Mary: [19:17] So she took a veil (to screen herself) from them; then We sent to her Our spirit; and there appeared to her a well-made man. [19:18] She said: Surely I fly for refuge from you to the Beneficient God, if you are one guarding (against evil). [19:19] He siad: I am only a messenger of your Lord: That I will give you a pure boy. The son is Jesus, who possessed no divine qualities. The Father is, of course, the One God, who begets not, nor is begotten. There you have it: a simple explanation of the mystery of the Trinity.
gwydion@tavi.rice.edu (Basalat Ali Raja) (03/15/90)
[this discussion is much more appropriate to soc.religion.islam than soc.culture.arabic. I am directing followups to that newsgroup] In article <18850@megaron.cs.arizona.edu> bakken@megaron.cs.arizona.edu (Dave Bakken) writes: >But we need to apply Occam's razor to my earlier question. Do not >confuse the issue of whether Jesus is a member of the Trinity. My >question was more general: what are the Qur'anic, hadithal (if thats >a word :-), and/or historical reasons for Muslims disagreeing with >the doctrine of the Trinity. This was a sincere question by which >I hoped to learn more about what Muslims believe and why they do. I have provided several references from the Quran in soc.religion.islam for Muslims rejecting the Trinity. I am no historian, and I can only speculate at best. My opinion, for what it is worth, is that Muslims tend to be interested in straightforward answers. If you will excuse me for saying so, without all the associated superstition, the mystery of the Trinity is a simple contradiction. This given, with the totally human nature of Jesus in the Quran, as well as the supernatural but non-divine nature of the Holy Ghost, is enough to make Muslims reject the Trinity.
gwydion@tavi.rice.edu (Basalat Ali Raja) (03/20/90)
In article <18850@megaron.cs.arizona.edu> bakken@megaron.cs.arizona.edu (Dave Bakken) writes: > >question was more general: what are the Qur'anic, hadithal (if thats >a word :-), and/or historical reasons for Muslims disagreeing with >the doctrine of the Trinity. I might continue on the discussion that has been going on. I believe the question has been raised that the Quran might not be opposed to the Trinity. This depends on the definition of the Trinity. Consider the following verse [Shakir Translation]. [5:73] Certainly they disbelieve who say: Surely Allah is the third (person) of the three; and there is no god but the one God, and if they desist not from what they say, a painful chastisement shall befall those among them who disbeleive. I believe it has been pointed out that the Trinity does not refer to three gods, but rather to One God in different forms. It *might* then be possible to say that the above verse does not refer to many Christians. However, let us consider the following verse: [4:171] O followers of the Book! do not exceeed the limits in your religion, and do not speak (lies) against Allah, but (speak) the truth; the Messiah, Isa son of Marium is only an Apostle of Allah and His Word which He communicated to Marium and a spirit from Him; believe therefore in Allah and His apostles, and say not, Three. ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ Desist, it is better for you; Allah is only one God, far be it from ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ His glory that He should have a son; whatever is in the heavens and whatever is in the earth is His; and Allah is sufficient for a Protector. One can define the Trinity as three distinct gods, one god in three distinct forms, one god in one form which manifested himself in three ways etc. However, whenever the concept of three enters the equation, one will find oneself in opposition to the Quran. This is an absolutely uncompromising rejection of the Trinity in any recognizable form. It is interesting to note that the word Trinity is mentioned only once in the Bible and the Quran - that is in the above verse. Also, in reference to Jesus being the only begotten son of god: Chapter 112: The Unity 1) Say: He, Allah, is One. 2) Allah is He on Whom all depend. 3) He begets not, nor is He begotten. 4) And none is like Him. Again, this is a rejection of Jesus as being the only begotten son of God. It seems that the word "begotten" has also been removed from newer editions of the Bible, in certain cases, as it was not in the original texts. In both cases, there seems to be enough reasons based on the Quran to reject the Trinity.