goer@sophist.uchicago.edu (Richard Goerwitz) (07/19/90)
[ This article is a response to an earlier article entitled "Jesus not God".
Please direct followups to this article elsewhere unless your
followup is relevant to Islam. --Naim ]
This Jesus != God stuff doesn't belong here. It is really a soft
anti-Christian polemic, and actually belongs in one of the Christian
newsgroups, or in some group dealing with general religion.
Since, however, it was posted here and approved, I assume that discus-
sion of the relative merits of Christianity is suitable for this news-
group. I am not what you would call a fervent "Christian." I was
once fervent, but have fallen into doubt about too many things to
give myself this label anymore. Still, I am astonished at the rea-
soning in the "Jesus not God" posting I just read. I respond more
because I enjoy flaming poor reasoning than because I blindly adhere
to any particular faith. I encourage devotees of Islam to think about
their religion, and to think about other religions. I just don't be-
lieve that the Jesus not God posting was a very good example of such
thought.
Let me explain by way of response to each of the points raised.
1.GOD IS ALL KNOWING... BUT JESUS WAS NOT
Let us suppose that God, for reasons we cannot delve into here, decided
to "become flesh and dwell among us." He would in effect be limiting
himself to a finite body and finite powers so as to represent himself
to human beings of a certain age more clearly. If he could limit him-
self spatially, I do not see any reason why he could not limit himself
in terms of his foreknowledge as well. You can think of God as a soul
which took on a human body and a human consciousness. Certainly the
body, its consciousness, and its limitations did not ever constitute
the essence of the Godhead. That is the whole point of incarnation:
To take on human sufferings, doubts, temptations, even death - in a
word, to take on a finite form.
I do not pretend that Christian theologians agree on the purpose of the
incarnation. The notion of incarnation, though - which is what you are
calling into question - is hardly impossible, and hardly beyond the
capabilities of an all-powerful and merciful God.
2.GOD IS ALL-POWERFUL... BUT JESUS WAS NOT
Ditto. The same principles apply here as were given above. God is
God. Who is to say that he could not have become man, and have sub-
jected his incarnation to physical limitations to accomplish a greater
purpose.
As for Jesus saying that his power was not his, this would *need* to
be true. Jesus was God's incarnation. As I said, think of God as a soul
and Jesus a body. The body does not act on its own, but only from a
higher power (unless you are a materialist). Hence Jesus did not act
on his own, but only as God bid him. I do not see why it is any prob-
lem for the incarnate consciousness to lack the full powers of the
abstract Deity, and yet still qualify as God incarnate. Certainly this
is no different from God condescending to express himself in a natural
language, such as Arabic, Hebrew, or Greek, in order to communicate
something of his nature to us.
3.GOD DOES NOT HAVE A GOD...BUT JESUS DID HAVE A GOD
God is the ultimate judge and refuge for all, and He
does not call upon nor pray to any others. But Jesus
acknowledged that there was one whom he worshipped and to
whom he prayed when he said, "I ascend unto my Father and
your Father, and to my God and your God" (St. John
20:17). He is also reported to have cried out while on
the cross, "My God, my God why hast thou forsaken me?"
(Matt 27:46). If Jesus were God, then couldn't this be
read, "Myself, myself why hast thou forsaken me?" Would
that be pure nonsense? When Jesus prayed the Lord's
prayer, "O my Father, if it be possible, let this cup
pass from me: Nevertheless not as I will but as thou
wilt" (Matt 36:36-39). Was Jesus praying to himself?
A very good question. Again let's use the soul-body analogy. Jesus
is God incarnate. He is very human. His consciousness is impinged upon
by doubt, by temptation, even brief periods of confusion. I do not see
how there is any problem with him manifesting his meditations as prayer -
prayer which would, in effect, be directed at himself. You may find this
idea confusing. Why, then, do you think that Jesus prayed in this way?
Think about this one.
4.GOD IS AN INVISIBLE SPIRIT... BUT JESUS WAS FLESH AND
BLOOD
Answered above. If God is so great, why should it be impossible for
him to take on a human form? Your objections are well-taken. They
will not, however, convince a thoughtful Christian that he or she is
wrong.
5.NO ONE IS GREATER THAN GOD AND NO ONE CAN DIRECT HIM...
BUT JESUS ACKNOWLEDGED SOMEONE GREATER THAN HIMSELF WHOSE
WILL WAS DISTINCT FROM HIS OWN
"My Father is greater than I."
I seem to be repeating myself. The reason is that your objections all
belong to the same family. I will say it again, though: Of *course*
God exceeds the human form in which he represented himself to us in.
If this were not so, THEN there would be reason to worry.
My brothers and sisters, the belief that the Supreme
Being is a Trinity is false and completely inconsistent
with the words of Jesus as presented in the Bible. God is
one, not three. He is a perfect unity.
Agreed.
If you are interested in the truth about God and
your relationship to Him, we invite you to investigate
the religion of Islam.
Disagreed. You simply have not made your case. I agree with your
conclusions about the oneness of God, oddly enough. I just don't
see how this drives me to Islam. There are a couple of pieces mis-
sing in your puzzle, most notably how the notion of God taking on
a human form is inconsistent with his oneness.
Nice try. But figure that if you can't even convince a skeptic like
me, you'll have a devil of a time convincing people who think of
themselves as firm and unwaivering Christians.
-Richard L. Goerwitz goer%sophist@uchicago.bitnet
goer@sophist.uchicago.edu rutgers!oddjob!gide!sophist!goer
goer@ncar.UCAR.EDU (Richard Goerwitz) (07/23/90)
[Moderator's Note:
The moderators have had a tough time deciding on the
approval of articles related to Christianity. On one
hand, Jesus Christ (peace be upon him) is mentioned in the
Quran, and Christianity and its tenets is one of Quran's
major themes. Therefore, some discussions about
Christianity are relevant to Islam and therefore
appropriate for this forum.
On the other hand, as has happened before, discussions
about Christianity tend to quickly leave their Islamic and
Quranic framework and become confined to arguments over
the *Christian* scriptures. The Christian scriptures are
not considered completely authentic by Moslems, and
therefore their discussion is not directly relevant to
Islam.
Therefore it is requested that contributors keep the
following guideline in mind:
Any discussion about the nature of Jesus Christ or of
Christianity must be confined to a Quranic/Islamic
framework. This applies to both Moslem and Non-Moslem
contributors. Any article that discusses these topics from
ONLY the standpoint of Christian scriptures will be
rejected due to its irrelevance.
An exception is made for the following article, and the
guideline is enforced from now on. ]
===========================================================================
This Jesus != God stuff doesn't belong here. It is really a soft
anti-Christian polemic, and actually belongs in one of the Christian
newsgroups, or in some group dealing with general religion.
Since, however, it was posted here and approved, I assume that discus-
sion of the relative merits of Christianity is suitable for this news-
group. I am not what you would call a fervent "Christian." I was
once fervent, but have fallen into doubt about too many things to
give myself this label anymore. Still, I am astonished at the rea-
soning in the "Jesus not God" posting I just read. I respond more
because I enjoy flaming poor reasoning than because I blindly adhere
to any particular faith. I encourage devotees of Islam to think about
their religion, and to think about other religions. I just don't be-
lieve that the Jesus not God posting was a very good example of such
thought.
Let me explain by way of response to each of the points raised.
1.GOD IS ALL KNOWING... BUT JESUS WAS NOT
Let us suppose that God, for reasons we cannot delve into here, decided
to "become flesh and dwell among us." He would in effect be limiting
himself to a finite body and finite powers so as to represent himself
to human beings of a certain age more clearly. If he could limit him-
self spatially, I do not see any reason why he could not limit himself
in terms of his foreknowledge as well. You can think of God as a soul
which took on a human body and a human consciousness. Certainly the
body, its consciousness, and its limitations did not ever constitute
the essence of the Godhead. That is the whole point of incarnation:
To take on human sufferings, doubts, temptations, even death - in a
word, to take on a finite form.
I do not pretend that Christian theologians agree on the purpose of the
incarnation. The notion of incarnation, though - which is what you are
calling into question - is hardly impossible, and hardly beyond the
capabilities of an all-powerful and merciful God.
2.GOD IS ALL-POWERFUL... BUT JESUS WAS NOT
Ditto. The same principles apply here as were given above. God is
God. Who is to say that he could not have become man, and have sub-
jected his incarnation to physical limitations to accomplish a greater
purpose.
As for Jesus saying that his power was not his, this would *need* to
be true. Jesus was God's incarnation. As I said, think of God as a soul
and Jesus a body. The body does not act on its own, but only from a
higher power (unless you are a materialist). Hence Jesus did not act
on his own, but only as God bid him. I do not see why it is any prob-
lem for the incarnate consciousness to lack the full powers of the
abstract Deity, and yet still qualify as God incarnate. Certainly this
is no different from God condescending to express himself in a natural
language, such as Arabic, Hebrew, or Greek, in order to communicate
something of his nature to us.
3.GOD DOES NOT HAVE A GOD...BUT JESUS DID HAVE A GOD
God is the ultimate judge and refuge for all, and He
does not call upon nor pray to any others. But Jesus
acknowledged that there was one whom he worshipped and to
whom he prayed when he said, "I ascend unto my Father and
your Father, and to my God and your God" (St. John
20:17). He is also reported to have cried out while on
the cross, "My God, my God why hast thou forsaken me?"
(Matt 27:46). If Jesus were God, then couldn't this be
read, "Myself, myself why hast thou forsaken me?" Would
that be pure nonsense? When Jesus prayed the Lord's
prayer, "O my Father, if it be possible, let this cup
pass from me: Nevertheless not as I will but as thou
wilt" (Matt 36:36-39). Was Jesus praying to himself?
A very good question. Again let's use the soul-body analogy. Jesus
is God incarnate. He is very human. His consciousness is impinged upon
by doubt, by temptation, even brief periods of confusion. I do not see
how there is any problem with him manifesting his meditations as prayer -
prayer which would, in effect, be directed at himself. You may find this
idea confusing. Why, then, do you think that Jesus prayed in this way?
Think about this one.
4.GOD IS AN INVISIBLE SPIRIT... BUT JESUS WAS FLESH AND
BLOOD
Answered above. If God is so great, why should it be impossible for
him to take on a human form? Your objections are well-taken. They
will not, however, convince a thoughtful Christian that he or she is
wrong.
5.NO ONE IS GREATER THAN GOD AND NO ONE CAN DIRECT HIM...
BUT JESUS ACKNOWLEDGED SOMEONE GREATER THAN HIMSELF WHOSE
WILL WAS DISTINCT FROM HIS OWN
"My Father is greater than I."
I seem to be repeating myself. The reason is that your objections all
belong to the same family. I will say it again, though: Of *course*
God exceeds the human form in which he represented himself to us in.
If this were not so, THEN there would be reason to worry.
My brothers and sisters, the belief that the Supreme
Being is a Trinity is false and completely inconsistent
with the words of Jesus as presented in the Bible. God is
one, not three. He is a perfect unity.
Agreed.
If you are interested in the truth about God and
your relationship to Him, we invite you to investigate
the religion of Islam.
Disagreed. You simply have not made your case. I agree with your
conclusions about the oneness of God, oddly enough. I just don't
see how this drives me to Islam. There are a couple of pieces mis-
sing in your puzzle, most notably how the notion of God taking on
a human form is inconsistent with his oneness.
Nice try. But figure that if you can't even convince a skeptic like
me, you'll have a devil of a time convincing people who think of
themselves as firm and unwaivering Christians.
-Richard L. Goerwitz goer%sophist@uchicago.bitnet
goer@sophist.uchicago.edu rutgers!oddjob!gide!sophist!goersalmassr@oiscola.columbia.ncr.com (07/27/90)
In article <1990Jul19.002401.26375@midway.uchicago.edu> Richard Goerwitz writes: >> 1.GOD IS ALL KNOWING... BUT JESUS WAS NOT > > Let us suppose that God, for reasons we cannot delve into here, decided > to "become flesh and dwell among us." He would in effect be limiting > himself to a finite body and finite powers so as to represent himself > to human beings of a certain age more clearly. If he could limit him- > self spatially, I do not see any reason why he could not limit himself > in terms of his foreknowledge as well. You can think of God as a soul > which took on a human body and a human consciousness. Certainly the > body, its consciousness, and its limitations did not ever constitute > the essence of the Godhead. The question is: Why he need to do something like that. According to my understanding GOD reminded mankind from time to time about the day of judgement by sending angles to prophets. And he leaves the decision to you. If he really wants you to beleieve in him that is easy. He can just say so! after all he created us in the first place so he can control what we think if he wants to. In the name of God, Most Gracious, Most Merciful Qur'an: Surat Al-Baqara (the heifer) 2:117. To Him is due The primal orgin of the heavens and the earth: When He decreeth a matter, He saith to it: "Be," And it is. > That is the whole point of incarnation: > To take on human sufferings, doubts, temptations, even death - in a > word, to take on a finite form. What good this is accomplishing? Does this mean that people are not suffering now and they do not have temptations etc. Be more specific! In the name of God, Most Gracious, Most Merciful Qur'an: Surat Al-Iklas (purity of faith) 112:1. Say: He is God, The One and Only; 2. God, the Eternal, Absolute; 3. He begetteth not, Nor is He begotten; 4. And there is none Like unto Him. __________________________________________________________________________ | _____ ______ _____ _____ Imagine Life in a Peacefull | | / | / / /\ // / / / _ _ United World... | | |____ /_____/ / \ / / /--- /____/ O O | | | / / / / / / | \__/ Samer M. Almassri | |\____/ / / / / /____ / | salmassr@oiscola.columbia.ncr.com | |__________________________________________________________________________|