ta00est@unccvax.uncc.edu (elizabeth s tallant) (11/29/90)
I have a question for the Islamic scholars. There are several places in the Koran which claim that the Torah is a divine revelation from God. It even goes so far as to say that Jesus confirmed that the Torah is the work of God. At least two of these references are found in the House of Iman. Now, here is my question. Do Islamic people agree with the Koran and accept the Torah word for word? For example, if there is a story in the Torah which is not in the Koran, would Islamic people believe it? And further, what do Islamic people have to say when the Torah contradicts the Koran? Thanks, Elizabeth
AND100@PSUVM.PSU.EDU (Aref N. Dajani) (11/29/90)
As-salaamu aleikum. Peace unto all of you.
Elizabeth, I am not an Islamic scholar. I am responding as a Muslim
who was born and raised in America, where the customs of my family
were commonly interplayed against the "Judeo-Christian" value system
disseminated by our society. (Major Disclaimer: If my fellow
Muslim brother and sister scholars have dispute with my following
discussion, don't be upset. Correct me openly, as Verily Allah is
is with the Patient. Inna Allaha ma'a as-sabireen!)
< There are several places in the Koran which claim that the Torah
< is a divine revelation from God. It even goes so far as to say
< that Jesus confirmed that the Torah is the work of God. At least
< two of these references are found in the House of Iman.
It's great that you've read Qur'an and if I were either a Jew or a
Christian, I would have interpreted the appropriate passages similarly.
Here's the problem: We Muslims believe that both Jews and Christians
are part of what some may call an elite community of mankind called
"Ahlul-Kitaab", commonly translated as People of the Book. The First
and Fundamental Pillar of Islam is Imaan (I'm into phonetics!), which
is commonly translated as Faith or Belief. But it's not only faith or
belief in God or Allah that we're talking about. Imaan also comprises
Belief in the Angels of God, the Books of God, the Prophets of God, AND
Life after Death. (For my Muslim brothers and sisters: "Amantu billahi
wa malaaikatihi wa kutubihi wa rusulihi wal yawmil akhiri...")
Muslims use different definitions to the words Torah (Tawraat) and
Gospel (Injeel) than those used by Jews and Christians. Muslims believe
in that which was REVEALED to Moses (Tawraat) and Jesus (Injeel) by Allah.
Here, already, Muslims have a problem with Christians, in that Christians
believe that the Bible comprises the life and lessons of "Lord Christ"
to his followers, not revelations TO "The Son" FROM "The Father".
I argue that even in the Bible, "Jesus preached the Gospel" to his
followers (Reference? Take your pick of Matthew, Mark, Luke, or John!) but
what REMAINS today are the gospels ACCORDING to M, M, L, and J -- not
the "Gospel that Jesus preached", that Muslims would call the ORIGINAL.
>From what I understand, similarly, what is today the Torah is NOT exactly
what Muslims refer to as Tawraat. I'm almost positive that in the middle
of Surah Baqarah (Chapter II of the Qur'an), a verse states that "Some
of the Revelation to Moses was left out and some of it was changed",
thereby making it VERY difficult to know which should be considered
the original and which wasn't. (A similar argument was made for the
"Bible".) It also says in the Qur'an (I'm not sure on the location for
this one) that Allah will pronounce judgment in the Hereafter in those
matters where we (Muslims vs. Jews and Christians) differ.
So though we Muslims believe in the Tawraat, we don't know its original
verses are still extant in today's Torah. I'll end this remark with
a short but powerful aside: many people think that the Old Testament
that Christians believe in is just a PERMUTED (switched-around) Torah.
That's mostly right, but there are some serious translation differences,
at least where I've looked at the English. In the Torah clearly in
Isaiah 45, "God created Evil," completely consistent with Surah Falaq
(Chapter 113). Depending on the Bible, God created other things that
weren't as bad. It causes interesting debate with Christians when
one asks why Jesus "died for our sins" if "He created evil". It isn't
very consistent.
< Now, here is my question. Do Islamic people agree with the Koran
< and accept the Torah word for word? For example, if there is a story
< in the Torah which is not in the Koran, would Islamic people believe
< it? And further, what do Islamic people have to say when the Torah
< contradicts the Koran?
<
< Thanks,
<
< Elizabeth
I don't mean to be a stickler for syntax, but I think most of us would
prefer if you call us Islamic people "Muslims" as this is a precise
translation (in Arabic) of "one who submits to God". With all due
respect, Elizabeth, when I hear the phrase "Islamic people", it sounds
like you think of Islam as a culture or a social expression, not as a
religion or way of life as we know it.
There are many stories in the Torah that aren't in the Qur'an that may
or may not contradict Islamic teachings. And there are stories in the
Qur'an that may or may not contradict Jewish teachings. I'll give you
an example of all four types since I know both works well enough, but
I'll say here that I PERSONALLY feel that it is not constructive for
Muslims to either accept or deny EVERYTHING in today's Torah, because
we Muslims are asked to hold DEEP respect for Christians and Jews (as
opposed to Wiccan Pagans and other Polytheists). In Surah Baqarah
(Chapter 2), you can read that what holds us all together (Muslims, Jews,
Christians, and "Sabaeans") is that we all believe in Allah and that we
all believe in the Last Day. We shouldn't forget this. AND I feel we
shouldn't be AS divided as we are by the fine points.
Accordingly, it says in the Qur'an that "Your God and Our God is One".
I hope we all agree that Allah will judge Magnificently in where we
differ. And that we together pray for peace. All over the place.
(1) In the Torah and Old Testament in Genesis, God promises a
Covenant to the Sons of Isaac and "Twelve Princes and a
Great Nation" to the Sons of Ishmael. Muslims won't have
have a problem with this, especially with this Great Nation
Muslims point to as Islam. (In the New Testament in John,
Jesus predicts a "comforter" after him that most Christians
"recognize" as "The Holy Spirit" on the Day of "Pentacost".
Muslims feel that the "Comforter" came much later, as the
Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him). Muslims and Christians
should talk more about Pentacost and Original Sin and less
about the divinity of Jesus. THAT dialogue has gone nowhere.
(2) Both the Qur'an and the Torah state that Abraham ALMOST sacrificed
his son. But which? The Qur'an says Ishmael and the Torah says
Isaac. It is hard to imagine though plausible that Abraham almost
sacrificed BOTH. This is an example of stories in each, not told
in the other, where probably NEITHER people would believe that
the other story is true.
(3) The Qur'an talks about how rough life was for Abraham BEFORE he
left for the Holy Land. Abraham's father was a wood-carver, an
idol-maker, and Abraham prayed for Allah's forgiveness for that.
I don't think that Jews would have a problem with this.
(4) But the Torah goes into great detail about how Sarah BANISHED
Hagar and her little son to the desert, while Muslims would not
give her all (if any) of the credit. Similarly, the Qur'an goes
into great detail about how the Jewish kingdoms DESERVED to be
overtaken by the Assyrians and the Babylonians and that for those
who wanted to revert back to the old ways (as in the Golden Calf),
Allah exclaims in the Qur'an: "Be ye apes, despised and hated."
As I said before, I'm excited by your reading Qur'an. As I have read
and continue to enjoy reading both the Bible and the Torah, I find joy
in the similarities between our faiths that I have uncovered, way far
beyond any of our MINOR differences!
Pax aeterna (As-salaamu aleikum),
Aref N. Dajani
"Ana wa akhee 'ala ibn 'amee. Ana wa ibn 'amee 'ala al-ghareeb."
(My brother and I against my cousin. My cousin and I against the stranger...)ta00est@unccvax.uncc.edu (elizabeth s tallant) (12/03/90)
[Note by a moderator: this article was approved because part of it is relevant to Islam. It is requested that all replies be relevant to Islam.] References: <1990Nov28.161255.21868@wpi.WPI.EDU> <1990Nov28.222036.14634@wpi.WPI.EDU> Organization: University of NC at Charlotte Lines: 320 In article <1990Nov28.222036.14634@wpi.WPI.EDU>, AND100@PSUVM.PSU.EDU (Aref N. Dajani) writes: > Aref, Thank you for your well-thought-out reply. Since you have gone to such detail to answer my questions, I will also go to lengths to repond to your points. > > < There are several places in the Koran which claim that the Torah > < is a divine revelation from God. It even goes so far as to say > < that Jesus confirmed that the Torah is the work of God. At least > < two of these references are found in the House of Iman. > > It's great that you've read Qur'an and if I were either a Jew or a > Christian, I would have interpreted the appropriate passages similarly. > (stuff deleted to save space) > Muslims use different definitions to the words Torah (Tawraat) and > Gospel (Injeel) than those used by Jews and Christians. Muslims believe > in that which was REVEALED to Moses (Tawraat) and Jesus (Injeel) by Allah. > Here, already, Muslims have a problem with Christians, in that Christians > believe that the Bible comprises the life and lessons of "Lord Christ" > to his followers, not revelations TO "The Son" FROM "The Father". Jesus said "I am in the Father an the Father is in me. If you have seen me then you have seen the Father." Right away, this tells us that the Son and the Father are one. The Son is the way in which God has manifested himself. This is further evidenced by the Gospel of John chapter 1 "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God." "And the Word became Flesh and dwelt among us." There is futher evidence in Genesis when Jacob wrestles with a man and writes, "I have seen God, and yet my life has been spared." Therefore, Christians not only believe that Jesus taught his followers but that He is actually God speaking to us. Jesus didn't just teach us how to uphold the laws, he fulfilled the laws and forgave sins. Only God is able to do this. > I argue that even in the Bible, "Jesus preached the Gospel" to his > followers (Reference? Take your pick of Matthew, Mark, Luke, or John!) but > what REMAINS today are the gospels ACCORDING to M, M, L, and J -- not > the "Gospel that Jesus preached", that Muslims would call the ORIGINAL. With this logic, you will end up defeating Islam, because Mohammed did not write the Koran, and Jesus did not write the Bible. If you have read the Gospels, and the books of Peter, then you will note that the disciples quote Jesus directly. They give his exact words, not just their interpretation of what He said. Further, out of five books, there are no contradictions and many teachings are quoted word for word the same. For those that are not quoted word for word, the meaning is exactly the same. This could be due to the fact that Jesus often taught the same lessens over and over again, and may have used slightly different wording in the lessens. So, Mark could be recording a lessen taught in January, while Luke could be recording the same lessen taught in May. > >From what I understand, similarly, what is today the Torah is NOT exactly > what Muslims refer to as Tawraat. I'm almost positive that in the middle > of Surah Baqarah (Chapter II of the Qur'an), a verse states that "Some > of the Revelation to Moses was left out and some of it was changed", > thereby making it VERY difficult to know which should be considered > the original and which wasn't. So, if there is something in the Bible that is not in the Koran, but yet it does not contradict the Koran, does Islam accept it? For example, the Koran simply says that Joseph served and eathly master whose wife accused Joseph of rape. Yet, the Bible says that Joseph served Potifer, gives his position in Potifer's house, and tells us that Potifer's wife accused Joseph of rape. Does Islam accept that Potifer was Joseph's master? > a short but powerful aside: many people think that the Old Testament > that Christians believe in is just a PERMUTED (switched-around) Torah. The Torah is not the Old Testament - it is only the first five books of the Old Testament - Genesis, Exodus, Deutarominy, Leviticus, and Numbers. According to the Jewish people that I know, there are no differences in the way that their Torah is worded and the way that the Bible is worded. > That's mostly right, but there are some serious translation differences, > at least where I've looked at the English. In the Torah clearly in > Isaiah 45, "God created Evil," Oh, thank you so much for rewriting that correctly! Like you said above, if I were a Moslem, I would have understood as you do. Yet, upon closer examination: evil = that which is against God Evil = Satan, or Lucifer The truth is that God created Satan, yet God NEVER created evil. God created Satan as His highest and most beautiful angel, but Satan became jelous of God, gathered one-third of angels, and tried to overthrow God. God knew of the plan, and cast out Satan and the one-third of the angels. Satan became Lucifer, and the angels became demons. After that, God appointed Micheal as His archangle. completely consistent with Surah Falaq > (Chapter 113). Correct me if I'm wrong, but are you saying that the Koran says that Allah created evil (lc)? If you say that Allah created evil, then you are saying that Allah is evil, since it is surely a sin to create sin. People create sins, and therefore they are sinners. Lucifer creates sin, and therfore he is a sinner. > weren't as bad. It causes interesting debate with Christians when > one asks why Jesus "died for our sins" if "He created evil". It isn't > very consistent. Our knowledge that God did NOT and NEVER WILL create sin should answer this question. > > < Now, here is my question. Do Islamic people agree with the Koran > < and accept the Torah word for word? For example, if there is a story > < in the Torah which is not in the Koran, would Islamic people believe > < it? And further, what do Islamic people have to say when the Torah > < contradicts the Koran? > < > < Thanks, > < > < Elizabeth > > I don't mean to be a stickler for syntax, but I think most of us would > prefer if you call us Islamic people "Muslims" as this is a precise > translation (in Arabic) of "one who submits to God". I really didn't mean any offense since Christian means the same thing as Christian person. With all due > respect, Elizabeth, when I hear the phrase "Islamic people", it sounds > like you think of Islam as a culture or a social expression, not as a > religion or way of life as we know it. Well, for some people, Islam is a religion. But by the same token, Islam is also a culture. There are people who live in Islamic countries that do not believe in Islam, but still perform many of the practices, such as abstinence from pork, because it has become part of their culture. So, when talking in a religious sense, I'll try to remeber to say "Moslem." > > There are many stories in the Torah that aren't in the Qur'an that may > or may not contradict Islamic teachings. And there are stories in the > Qur'an that may or may not contradict Jewish teachings. I'll give you > an example of all four types since I know both works well enough, but > I'll say here that I PERSONALLY feel that it is not constructive for > Muslims to either accept or deny EVERYTHING in today's Torah, because > we Muslims are asked to hold DEEP respect for Christians and Jews (as > opposed to Wiccan Pagans and other Polytheists). In Surah Baqarah > (Chapter 2), you can read that what holds us all together (Muslims, Jews, > Christians, and "Sabaeans") is that we all believe in Allah and that we > all believe in the Last Day. We shouldn't forget this. AND I feel we > shouldn't be AS divided as we are by the fine points. Hmmmmm. This presents an interesting point. All the Moslems that I know (with whom I have discussed the subject) believe that they worship the same God as Christians and Jews. I cannot speak for Jews, but I know that most orthodox Christians hold that Allah is not God. You see, this is extremely obvious from the fact that we worship Jesus Christ. Now, if you do not worship Jesus Christ, then you do not worship the same God that I worship. Perhaps I can draw a parallel here. The Alhouit (pardon spelling) religion worships the prophet Ali. Moslems recognize Ali as a prophet, but they do not think that Alhouits worship Allah as they do. Since Moslems think that Alhouits do not worship Allah, then logic would follow that Christians don't worhip Allah either. So then, why do Moslems maintain that Christians worship the same God that they do when Moslems clearly do not worship Jesus Christ? Laying aside the argument over whether or not Christ is God - if God came to the earth, and you refused to worship Him and recognize Him as God and also refused to obey His commandments, then would you be worshipping God? Of course not! > > Accordingly, it says in the Qur'an that "Your God and Our God is One". > I hope we all agree that Allah will judge Magnificently in where we > differ. And that we together pray for peace. All over the place. > > (1) In the Torah and Old Testament in Genesis, God promises a > Covenant to the Sons of Isaac and "Twelve Princes and a > Great Nation" to the Sons of Ishmael. This is quite true. However, God also promised that a great nation would come from Isaac. The Bible lists both the twelve main tribes of Isaac and of Ishamael. However, God said that the promises and blessings of the covenant would come through Isaac. Now, this means that the Messiah, who is referred to in a "zillion" places in the Old Testament, would come from Isaac's lineage, not from Ishmaels. Muslims won't have > have a problem with this, especially with this Great Nation > Muslims point to as Islam. (In the New Testament in John, > Jesus predicts a "comforter" after him that most Christians > "recognize" as "The Holy Spirit" on the Day of "Pentacost". > Muslims feel that the "Comforter" came much later, as the > Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him). Muslims and Christians > should talk more about Pentacost I hate to rain on your parade, but there is not one single reference in the Bible which indicates that the Comforter is Mohammed, and not even one to indicate that He is human. If you refer back to the Gospels, Jesus breathed on His disciples and said, "Recieve ye the Holy Ghost." At that time, the disciples felt the presence of the Holy Ghost, although He did not come back permanently until the day of Pentacost. Further, and perhaps most significant of all for this discussion, the Comforter came to earth several times before the birth of Christ, just as Christ came to earth at least once before His virgin birth through Mary. Further, the Comfortor, according to Jesus Himself, will never leave those who have accepted the Messiah. He will be with them 24 hours per day from the time they accept Christ until their death, and even after death, they will be with the Comfortor in Heaven. Jesus clearly stated that this will be a physical presence of a physical being, not just the memory or words of a prophet. and Original Sin and less > about the divinity of Jesus. THAT dialogue has gone nowhere. Well then, let me ask a question. Since Islam teaches that Jesus was the only person to ever experience a virgin birth and since the Koran says that Jesus was the only one ever caught up to Heaven, doesn't that in itself suggest that Jesus is far above any human being INCLUDING the prophets? After all, the Koran says that even all the other prophets experieced "regular" conceptions, births, and deaths. > (2) Both the Qur'an and the Torah state that Abraham ALMOST sacrificed > his son. But which? The Qur'an says Ishmael and the Torah says > Isaac. It is hard to imagine though plausible that Abraham almost > sacrificed BOTH. This is an example of stories in each, not told > in the other, where probably NEITHER people would believe that > the other story is true. I agree, most people would not accept the stories without substantial reason. Yet, saying that Ishmael was almost sacrificed implies that Ishmael was the child of the Covenant, and according to what you said above, Torah says that Isaac was the child of the Covenant. Now, who would not think that Isaac was the child of the Covenant since ALL the prophets came through Isaac? Introducing Ishmael in this story simply tries give legitimacy to Mohammed. > (3) The Qur'an talks about how rough life was for Abraham BEFORE he > left for the Holy Land. Abraham's father was a wood-carver, an > idol-maker, and Abraham prayed for Allah's forgiveness for that. > I don't think that Jews would have a problem with this. > > (4) But the Torah goes into great detail about how Sarah BANISHED > Hagar and her little son to the desert, while Muslims would not > give her all (if any) of the credit. Why? Do Moslems accept that God said that Ishmael could not grow up with the child of the Covenant, and that Sarah was upset because of the way that Ishmael taunted Isaac ? Of course, in later life, the brothers loved each other and even buried Abraham together. Similarly, the Qur'an goes > into great detail about how the Jewish kingdoms DESERVED to be > overtaken by the Assyrians and the Babylonians and that for those > who wanted to revert back to the old ways (as in the Golden Calf), Well, at least we agree on this. The Bible says that the Jews were conquered by other people because God was fed up with their disobedience. Even the Old Testament, used by both Jews and Christains, says that God will utterly destroy a portion of Jews (and He has already done such) because of thier wickedness. And further, it goes into great detail about how the Jews have broken ALL of their covenants with God, save the one Covenant through Immanuel (Jesus) , which for those who believe in Him, cannot be broken by God or man. This is one reason why I have such a hard time believing that the Jews changed the Old Testament, because what we call the Old Testament tells us about the wickedness of the Jews, and further prophecies of a Savior which all but the orthodox Jews DON'T believe in. It seems to me that if Jews were going to change this book, they would have changed it to make themselves look good and to say things that they WANT to practice. The book of Isiah even says that many Jews will hate the Messiah. The OT even says that all of the Jews would be destroyed if it weren't for God's grace. Quite frankly, the OT makes Jews in general look like an overall rotten bunch who are saved only because God loves them so much. Allah exclaims in the Qur'an: "Be ye apes, despised and hated." > > As I said before, I'm excited by your reading Qur'an. As I have read > and continue to enjoy reading both the Bible and the Torah, I find joy > in the similarities between our faiths that I have uncovered, way far > beyond any of our MINOR differences! I am also quite happy that you enjoy reading the Bible (in which the Torah is contained) and the you are actually finding JOY from the similarities. Read on, and you will no doubt prosper! Elizabeth "May the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ be with you always, even unto the ends of the earth." - John
khaled@cs.ualberta.ca (Khaled El-Sayed) (12/03/90)
ta00est@unccvax.uncc.edu (elizabeth s tallant) writes: >I have a question for the Islamic scholars. >Now, here is my question. Do Islamic people agree with the Koran and accept >the Torah word for word? For example, if there is a story in the Torah >which is not in the Koran, would Islamic people believe it? And further, what >do Islamic people have to say when the Torah contradicts the Koran? Torah contains many verses which are in contradiction with Koran. In this case, what is Koran is selected because it is preserved ever since Mohammed received it. On the other hand Torah has been 'modified' and many additions have been made to it and what is available now is not the true Torah. As for the story question, there is huge amount of work done by Islamic scientists regarding this matter. The basic principle is that if a story contradicts the basic principles of the human thinking and principles of Islam then it is rejected (like the story of Jacob fighting with God!!). khaled
isaac@goanna.cs.rmit.oz.au (Isaac Balbin) (12/05/90)
khaled@cs.ualberta.ca (Khaled El-Sayed) writes: >Mohammed received it. On the other hand Torah has been 'modified' and many >additions have been made to it and what is available now is not the true Torah. Really Khaled. Have you studied the archaeological findings? Do you know anything about the ``differences'' between the oldest texts found and those in use today? What is your evidence for these additions, and when did these additions take place, and who do you allege mad these additions? Is this your opinion Khaled, or is this an enshrined Islamic belief? -- ``A College degree is a right; not a privilege"